Craster's Black Blooded Curse (or WTF happened to Benjen)

[Darkstream]

On the way back to Castle Black, Jon was thinking about how warm it has been over the last week. I'm wondering if this might be a hint that there was no presence of Others or wights in the area. Later, just before Othor kills the guard outside his door, Jon thinks about how cold it suddenly became.  

[Tijgy]

1 hour ago, Darkstream said:

On the way back to Castle Black, Jon was thinking about how warm it has been over the last week. I'm wondering if this might be a hint that there was no presence of Others or wights in the area. Later, just before Other kills the guard outside his door, Jon thinks about how cold it suddenly became.  

That is interesting. 

Another guy who is amazing in detecting the presence of the Others is Dywen. It is too cold, it is too quiet, ... hey, the Others are there. 

Dywen was holding forth, spoon in hand. "I know this wood as well as any man alive, and I tell you, I wouldn't care to ride through it alone tonight. Can't you smell it?" (...) The forester sucked on his spoon a moment. He had taken out his teeth. His face was leathery and wrinkled, his hands gnarled as old roots. "Seems to me like it smells . . . well . . . cold." (...)  Dywen said he smelled cold. (ACOK)

Dywen was holding forth at the cookfire (...) "The wood's too silent," the old forester was saying. "No frogs near that river, no owls in the dark. I never heard no deader wood than this." Dywen clacked his wooden teeth. "No wolves neither. There was, before, but no more. Where'd they go, you figure?" (ASOS)

 

 

[Darkstream]

30 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

That is interesting. 

Another guy who is amazing in detecting the presence of the Others is Dywen. It is too cold, it is too quiet, ... hey, the Others are there. 

Dywen was holding forth, spoon in hand. "I know this wood as well as any man alive, and I tell you, I wouldn't care to ride through it alone tonight. Can't you smell it?" (...) The forester sucked on his spoon a moment. He had taken out his teeth. His face was leathery and wrinkled, his hands gnarled as old roots. "Seems to me like it smells . . . well . . . cold." (...)  Dywen said he smelled cold. (ACOK)

Dywen was holding forth at the cookfire (...) "The wood's too silent," the old forester was saying. "No frogs near that river, no owls in the dark. I never heard no deader wood than this." Dywen clacked his wooden teeth. "No wolves neither. There was, before, but no more. Where'd they go, you figure?" (ASOS)

 

 

Right, you would think that Dywen would make a similar comment if he suspected the Others/wights were involved.

The only indicator that the others are thinking the same as Jon, is Jon's own thoughts. He doesn't know for sure if Dywen is actually thinking about the Others.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

10 hours ago, Tijgy said:

But Coldhands is someone who already has been a long time dead. It does not solve the question about the fact how recently a black cloak could have put there? How did CH get a complete black cloak while his is a little mottled. IMO the cloak came from somebody else than CH. So where did he got that cloak if he was the one who buried the stash? 

The main problem I have is that there is not really any indication it was Coldhands who did this. It comes after they talked about the whereabouts of Ben Stark of whom Bran said earlier he could have taken refuge with the CotF. 

I agree with this. I am also sort of reluctant to adhere everything to Bran. In one way it actually sort of takes away the agency of all other characters and maybe even the influence Bloodraven might had on how thing unfolded. This is why I mostly just refer to the old gods and not to Bloodraven or to Bran, when I am talking about any possible intervention by the old gods (like the Raven, the 3EC, Coldhands, ...). 

We're on the same page regarding Ben and Bran  Currently we only have evidence for Benjen being an undead, and of Bran being able to speak through trees and ravens. Not much more to go on, really.

[sweetsunray]

7 hours ago, Flavia Gemina said:

Oh I never noticed before that the Raven here sits atop the door just as in the poem by Poe.

I have held a perhaps crackpot interpretation of the poem that narrator is dead and entombed but does not know it. 

 

I believe the Starks & others are connected through the crypts.

Nice catch yes about the raving sitting atop the door. And I can see that interpretation, could be metaphorically entombed, living with ghosts.

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Soooo, what you are saying is Val is a prized piece of meat to be stolen HAhahaha, I love it!

• Dolorous Edd made the trek to the kitchens and soon was back with a tankard of brown ale and a covered platter. Under the lid Jon discovered three duck's eggs fried in drippings, a strip of bacon, two sausages, a blood pudding, and half a loaf of bread still warm from the oven. He ate the bread and half an egg. He would have eaten the bacon too, but the raven made off with it before he had the chance. "Thief," Jon said, as the bird flapped up to the lintel above the door to devour its prize.

"Thief," the raven agreed. (aDwD, Jon VII)

Exactly!!!! You can add it as one of the Val quotes imo, and with the raven sitting on the lintel above the door. I love both Mormont's and Jon's raven. Another great scene with the raven is when Mormont gives him the sword. The raven flies to the table and inspects the sword and then urges Jon "Take it! Take it! Take it!"

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, Darkstream said:

Yup, I noticed that last night and was going to mention it. Othor clearly had the opportunity to arm himself, but chose not to. GRRM made it a point to inform us that the guard's sword was there, and available.

Also, just before the description of Othor's wounds, Jeor asks, how did they die? Referring to both corpses. If Othor and Jaffer had wounds that appeared to be made by a different type of weapon, this would have surely been mentioned.

Yes, it's not about providing a sword for Jon, because he loses it - well he does manage to chop off Othor's arm and save Ghost - but it clearly signifies that Othor did not take a weapon when he had the chance. And clearly he did not need it either.

Agreed, the lead in is "How did they die?" and the conclusion by Rykker is "axes" after both corpses are described to us. And Dywen doesn't disagree with that.

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, Darkstream said:

On the way back to Castle Black, Jon was thinking about how warm it has been over the last week. I'm wondering if this might be a hint that there was no presence of Others or wights in the area. Later, just before Othor kills the guard outside his door, Jon thinks about how cold it suddenly became.  

Well obviously there are wights in the area: Othor and Jafer. But they are not animated at the time they are found. It is very cold again when they are animated. Maybe an Other or some Others must be in the vicinity to animate and control them. Perhaps we should look for a big dip in temperature in the months before it.

But I think it's safe to say that Othor and Jafer are lying there at least over a week then.

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Tijgy said:

That is interesting. 

Another guy who is amazing in detecting the presence of the Others is Dywen. It is too cold, it is too quiet, ... hey, the Others are there. 

Dywen was holding forth, spoon in hand. "I know this wood as well as any man alive, and I tell you, I wouldn't care to ride through it alone tonight. Can't you smell it?" (...) The forester sucked on his spoon a moment. He had taken out his teeth. His face was leathery and wrinkled, his hands gnarled as old roots. "Seems to me like it smells . . . well . . . cold." (...)  Dywen said he smelled cold. (ACOK)

Dywen was holding forth at the cookfire (...) "The wood's too silent," the old forester was saying. "No frogs near that river, no owls in the dark. I never heard no deader wood than this." Dywen clacked his wooden teeth. "No wolves neither. There was, before, but no more. Where'd they go, you figure?" (ASOS)

 

 

Dywen's like your personal walking, talking pet tree, like an "ent". He knows forest environment: good ears, good nose. If trees could talk that's what they'd say - "hmmm, quite cold for this time of year, even I am shivering. Was a wolf who used to take me for a pole to flag his scent. Haven't seen him for a week. And the frogs that have been keeping me awake, well can't hear them now." Trust Dywen. He's Treebeard.

[Tijgy]

22 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Dywen's like your personal walking, talking pet tree, like an "ent". He knows forest environment: good ears, good nose. If trees could talk that's what they'd say - "hmmm, quite cold for this time of year, even I am shivering. Was a wolf who used to take me for a pole to flag his scent. Haven't seen him for a week. And the frogs that have been keeping me awake, well can't hear them now." Trust Dywen. He's Treebeard.

Haha, that is the same conclusion I had after collecting and analyzing the different parts he appeared in the books (which I did to investigate if he is sort of being used by Bloodraven or the old gods because his resemblance of a tree, ...)

And my short conclusion was "To be honest, after making this entire list, I am not really sure about there is a connection between the old gods and him? Maybe he is just so very perspective of his experience and GRRM made him resemble a tree because he sees it as a symbol of wisdom and because Dywen is just a creature of the forest? Or maybe there is still a little voice of the gods through his teeth saying "warning, an other, warning". No idea. I admit I think it is actually more the first option (after all this work). So I would exclude any real divine inspiration?"

I just think they should however use Dywen as warning post: Dywen, do you think it is cold? No, okay, there are no others present."

I also find it funny Grenn, Sam, Jon, ... are constantly saying Dywen says and variations of it and they follow a lot of times with small wisdoms on the haunted forest (or jokes ). 

[sweetsunray]

Well, I totally ag

3 hours ago, Tijgy said:

Haha, that is the same conclusion I had after collecting and analyzing the different parts he appeared in the books (which I did to investigate if he is sort of being used by Bloodraven or the old gods because his resemblance of a tree, ...)

And my short conclusion was "To be honest, after making this entire list, I am not really sure about there is a connection between the old gods and him? Maybe he is just so very perspective of his experience and GRRM made him resemble a tree because he sees it as a symbol of wisdom and because Dywen is just a creature of the forest? Or maybe there is still a little voice of the gods through his teeth saying "warning, an other, warning". No idea. I admit I think it is actually more the first option (after all this work). So I would exclude any real divine inspiration?"

I just think they should however use Dywen as warning post: Dywen, do you think it is cold? No, okay, there are no others present."

I also find it funny Grenn, Sam, Jon, ... are constantly saying Dywen says and variations of it and they follow a lot of times with small wisdoms on the haunted forest (or jokes ). 

I totally agree with you. Dywen's a human tree.

The one who holes up in a tree and scouts is Giant, Bedwyck. He's a bear, albeit a small bear (Giant + making a hollow tree his "castle" for the night).

I don't think Dywen's having magical powers or whispers... but it might be that he has an affinity with trees. Even the Starks that did not fully warg their wolves yet (in their dreams) had a wolfish connection, no? Jon's senses were keen already before he had his first wolf dream in the Skirling Pass.

Unfortunately Dywen is not yet back from his ranging with Thorne.

[Darkstream]

3 hours ago, Tijgy said:

Or maybe there is still a little voice of the gods through his teeth saying "warning, an other, warning".

 You just blew my mind. The color of Dywen's teeth hasn't been stated has it? Could they be white, as in made of Weirwood? The wiki picture shows them as brown, but I'm now convinced his teeth are carved from a Weirwood .

I wonder if he takes good care of his gums. I doubt it, seeing as he has already lost his teeth. I bet there is some blood sacrifice going on there too.

[The Fattest Leech]

3 hours ago, Tijgy said:

 

I just think they should however use Dywen as warning post: Dywen, do you think it is cold? No, okay, there are no others present."

I also find it funny Grenn, Sam, Jon, ... are constantly saying Dywen says and variations of it and they follow a lot of times with small wisdoms on the haunted forest (or jokes ). 

 

15 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I don't think Dywen's having magical powers or whispers... but it might be that he has an affinity with trees. Even the Starks that did not fully warg their wolves yet (in their dreams) had a wolfish connection, no? Jon's senses were keen already before he had his first wolf dream in the Skirling Pass.

Unfortunately Dywen is not yet back from his ranging with Thorne.

 

3 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

 You just blew my mind. The color of Dywen's teeth hasn't been stated has it? Could they be white, as in made of Weirwood? The wiki picture shows them as brown, but I'm now convinced his teeth are carved from a Weirwood .

I wonder if he takes good care of his gums. I doubt it, seeing as he has already lost his teeth. I bet there is some blood sacrifice going on there too.

This is about the fourth or fifth time Dywen has come up on the threads in the last two weeks alone. I have a feeling something could be up with him, on a very small, soft scale, but that idea is usually met with a flat, "NO, just wooden teeth." Even if it nothing to do with his teeth, the dude smells the Others and wights and Owen the Oaf (the dragon dreamer simpleton) has some connection with Dywen as well. Jon is the only one who belived him about the Others while at the Fist, and look what happened.

I think this is appropriate:

A Clash of Kings - Jon III

Dywen whapped him up alongside his ear with the back of his hand. "You? Seen? You're blind as Maester Aemon. You never even saw that bear."

"What bear? Was there a bear?"

"There's always a bear," declared Dolorous Edd in his usual tone of gloomy resignation. "One killed my brother when I was young. Afterward it wore his teeth around its neck on a leather thong. And they were good teeth too, better than mine. I've had nothing but trouble with my teeth."

[sweetsunray]

23 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

 You just blew my mind. The color of Dywen's teeth hasn't been stated has it? Could they be white, as in made of Weirwood? The wiki picture shows them as brown, but I'm now convinced his teeth are carved from a Weirwood .

I wonder if he takes good care of his gums. I doubt it, seeing as he has already lost his teeth. I bet there is some blood sacrifice going on there too.

I think they are brown: Dywen smiled an oaken smile; his teeth were carved of wood, and fit badly.  (aCoK, Jon III)

That said, oak is also a very sacred tree - old, wise, etc

The listening to leaves rustling as gods speech that Osha tells Bran... that's what the oracles of Zeus did in Dodona, at an oak grove.

[Darkstream]

3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I think they are brown: Dywen smiled an oaken smile; his teeth were carved of wood, and fit badly.  (aCoK, Jon III)

That said, oak is also a very sacred tree - old, wise, etc

Awww!  

For the better, It would have been painfully difficult for him to be rooted into the weirnet anyway.  

[The Fattest Leech]

17 minutes ago, Darkstream said:

Awww!  

For the better, It would have been painfully difficult for him to be rooted into the weirnet anyway.  

But other trees were used as well, including oak:

• The drunkard was an ash tree, twisted sideways by centuries of wind. And now it had a face. A solemn mouth, a broken branch for a nose, two eyes carved deep into the trunk, gazing north up the kingsroad, toward the castle and the Wall.
• A mile farther on, they came upon a second face, carved into a chestnut tree that grew beside an icy stream, where its eyes could watch the old plank bridge that spanned its flow. "Twice as much trouble," announced Dolorous Edd.
• Just north of Mole's Town they came upon the third watcher, carved into the huge oak that marked the village perimeter, its deep eyes fixed upon the kingsroad. That is not a friendly face, Jon Snow reflected. The faces that the First Men and the children of the forest had carved into the weirwoods in eons past had stern or savage visages more oft than not, but the great oak looked especially angry, as if it were about to tear its roots from the earth and come roaring after them. Its wounds are as fresh as the wounds of the men who carved it.

[Darkstream]

And there's this too.

Ned knelt beside her. "He has years to find that answer, Arya. For now, it is enough to know that he will live." The night the bird had come from Winterfell, Eddard Stark had taken the girls to the castle godswood, an acre of elm and alder and black cottonwood overlooking the river. The heart tree there was a great oak, its ancient limbs overgrown with smokeberry vines; they knelt before it to offer their thanksgiving, as if it had been a weirwood. Sansa drifted to sleep as the moon rose, Arya several hours later, curling up in the grass under Ned's cloak. All through the dark hours he kept his vigil alone. When dawn broke over the city, the dark red blooms of dragon's breath surrounded the girls where they lay. "I dreamed of Bran," Sansa had whispered to him. "I saw him smiling."

[The Fattest Leech]

1 minute ago, Darkstream said:

And there's this too.

Ned knelt beside her. "He has years to find that answer, Arya. For now, it is enough to know that he will live." The night the bird had come from Winterfell, Eddard Stark had taken the girls to the castle godswood, an acre of elm and alder and black cottonwood overlooking the river. The heart tree there was a great oak, its ancient limbs overgrown with smokeberry vines; they knelt before it to offer their thanksgiving, as if it had been a weirwood. Sansa drifted to sleep as the moon rose, Arya several hours later, curling up in the grass under Ned's cloak. All through the dark hours he kept his vigil alone. When dawn broke over the city, the dark red blooms of dragon's breath surrounded the girls where they lay. "I dreamed of Bran," Sansa had whispered to him. "I saw him smiling."

Oh that's right. This is a good connection to how Arya and Bran both have to eat acorns to survive, and acorns grow into the mighty oak!

Still no faces or weirwoods to witness any of Craster's abominable acts, which I think is one of my favorite finds by SweetSR so far in this theory. He is living in his own shadow, hiding from the gods and men.

[sweetsunray]

Exactly! The other trees can have eyes and ears too. It's just that the weirwood trees are the strongest, most powerful and easier to start training greenseeing, and a magical bond can be made between men and tree as we see done with Bloodraven. The other trees aside from sentinels and weirwoods lose their leaves and sleep in winter. But the weirwood tree is an evergreen (euhm everred?) and the sentinels keep their sharp needles.

[Tijgy]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Unfortunately Dywen is not yet back from his ranging with Thorne.

If there is one person who will be able to return, it is Dywen  (because he is awesome)

3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

This is about the fourth or fifth time Dywen has come up on the threads in the last two weeks alone. I have a feeling something could be up with him, on a very small, soft scale, but that idea is usually met with a flat, "NO, just wooden teeth." Even if it nothing to do with his teeth, the dude smells the Others and wights and Owen the Oaf (the dragon dreamer simpleton) has some connection with Dywen as well. Jon is the only one who belived him about the Others while at the Fist, and look what happened.

 

Dywen is indeed an intriguing characters and before I did look at a little investigation I was actually almost convinced there might indeed be something up with him. But now I just think he is a very wise and experienced forester, who is able to recognize things are not really natural (the forest is cold in a wrong way, the forest is dead in a wrong way). 

But there might still something special about him. 

--

I agree rustling leaves is indeed a common way to indicate the presence of the old gods. In the Bran Powers Thread we believe it is one way GRRM used to indicate the presence of the old gods, just like winds, mists, ...  It is fun. But I think we did not yet discussed the Jon chapters at Craster yet. 

In the end I do not think greenseers themselves are really bound to what the eyes of trees see. 

"Once you have mastered your gifts, you may look where you will and see what the trees have seen, be it yesterday or last year or a thousand ages past. Men live their lives trapped in an eternal present, between the mists of memory and the sea of shadow that is all we know of the days to come. Certain moths live their whole lives in a day, yet to them that little span of time must seem as long as years and decades do to us. An oak may live three hundred years, a redwoodtree three thousand. A weirwood will live forever if left undisturbed. To them seasons pass in the flutter of a moth's wing, and past, present, and future are one. Nor will your sight be limited to your godswood. The singers carved eyes into their heart trees to awaken them, and those are the first eyes a new greenseer learns to use … but in time you will see well beyond the trees themselves." 

3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said:

Oh that's right. This is a good connection to how Arya and Bran both have to eat acorns to survive, and acorns grow into the mighty oak!

 

Both Jojen and Bloodraven do use even the acorn and the oak to describe the possibility for Bran to see the past, the present and the future. 

"You have three. The crow gave you the third, but you will not open it." He had a slow soft way of speaking. "With two eyes you see my face. With three you could see my heart. With two you can see that oak tree there. With three you could see the acorn the oak grew from and the stump that it will one day become. With two you see no farther than your walls. With three you would gaze south to the Summer Sea and north beyond the Wall."

Those were shadows of days past that you saw, Bran. You were looking through the eyes of the heart tree in your godswood. Time is different for a tree than for a man. Sun and soil and water, these are the things a weirwood understands, not days and years and centuries. For men, time is a river. We are trapped in its flow, hurtling from past to present, always in the same direction. The lives of trees are different. They root and grow and die in one place, and that river does not move them. The oak is the acorn, the acorn is the oak. And the weirwood … a thousand human years are a moment to a weirwood, and through such gates you and I may gaze into the past."