Revisiting the Quiet Isle

[YOVMO]

So I just finished the Brienne chapter on the Quiet Isle in my current re-read. So much packed here. So I am just going to assume that gravedigger is the hound. I have never seen anyone seriously deny that.

I just looked back at ASOIAF and haven't seen any convincing information regarding the Elder Brother. The Jonothor Darry story both 1) Doesn't add up with the info we have about elder brother (a third brother whose father was a knight who fought for a lord who fought for a lord who sided with the dragons; that he was so poor that his main concern was losing his horse blah blah blah) and 2) even if the EB was Jonothor Darry it wouldn't be particularly interesting.

I guess I can buy that he is basically a common knights perspective. Nobody special sometimes is very special. But he is said to have some healing powers which are generally regarded as almost unnatural. I am really at a loss here. Anyone have some good tinfoil?

The 6 of Rhaegar's rubies that turned up is also odd. Maybe Richard Lonmouth (Lem Lemoncloack) was one of them who got healed? He could be seen as one of Rhaegar's rubies. 7 of them though? I have long believed that Arthur Dayne is still alive. Possible he spent some time over on the Quiet Island (it seems like a good place for Kingsguard who are in hiding)

 

But also some other odd stuff going on. Like at dinner one of the brothers playing the High Harp. I was under the impression that playing the High Harp would be something that nobles take up. Who is this High Harpest? His playing is said to be "soft sweet sounds" which is reminiscent of Rhaegar himself. (though as much as I love tin foil I have never been on the side of people who say Rhaegar might be alive and be Mance...or anyone really.....he definitely died of acute YRBWHTTCS(or Young Robert Baratheon War Hammer To The Chest Syndrome) infront of half the realm. But the soft sweet sounds on the high harp are definitely evocative.

Septon Merabald is a who interesting story as well. I mean, who tf is this guy? And Brother Narbert seems like he is very secretive.

Other crazy stuff from this section is where you learn that saltpans is a very minor port which makes it odd that the Titan's Daughter was there just in the nick of time when Arya was looking for a ship to Braavos with a braavosi who would be kindly inclined towards faceless men types and passed several major ports without stopping on the return to Braavos.

 

THis really is one of the most dense and inscrutable chapters. Any good thoughts on any of this stuff?

[Lost Melnibonean]

38 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

So I just finished the Brienne chapter on the Quiet Isle in my current re-read. So much packed here. So I am just going to assume that gravedigger is the hound. I have never seen anyone seriously deny that.

I just looked back at ASOIAF and haven't seen any convincing information regarding the Elder Brother. The Jonothor Darry story both 1) Doesn't add up with the info we have about elder brother (a third brother whose father was a knight who fought for a lord who fought for a lord who sided with the dragons; that he was so poor that his main concern was losing his horse blah blah blah) and 2) even if the EB was Jonothor Darry it wouldn't be particularly interesting.

I guess I can buy that he is basically a common knights perspective. Nobody special sometimes is very special. But he is said to have some healing powers which are generally regarded as almost unnatural. I am really at a loss here. Anyone have some good tinfoil?

The 6 of Rhaegar's rubies that turned up is also odd. Maybe Richard Lonmouth (Lem Lemoncloack) was one of them who got healed? He could be seen as one of Rhaegar's rubies. 7 of them though? I have long believed that Arthur Dayne is still alive. Possible he spent some time over on the Quiet Island (it seems like a good place for Kingsguard who are in hiding)

 

But also some other odd stuff going on. Like at dinner one of the brothers playing the High Harp. I was under the impression that playing the High Harp would be something that nobles take up. Who is this High Harpest? His playing is said to be "soft sweet sounds" which is reminiscent of Rhaegar himself. (though as much as I love tin foil I have never been on the side of people who say Rhaegar might be alive and be Mance...or anyone really.....he definitely died of acute young Robert Baratheon war hammer to the chest infront of half the realm). But the soft sweet sounds on the high harp are definitely evocative.

Septon Merabald is a who interesting story as well. I mean, who tf is this guy? And Brother Narbert seems like he is very secretive.

Other crazy stuff from this section is where you learn that saltpans is a very minor port which makes it odd that the Titan's Daughter was there just in the nick of time when Arya was looking for a ship and passed several major ports without stopping on the return to Braavos.

 

THis really is one of the most dense and inscrutable chapters. Any good thoughts on any of this stuff?

I just started Feast, so I will come back to this thread when I follow Meribald and Dog onto the Quiet Isle. As you say, the grave digger is Sandor. There is some really good foreshadowing for the grave digger in Davos's Blackwater chapter and the Oberyn-Gregor duel. I think the Elder Brother and Septon Meribald are just whom they appear to be. If they are anyone, I would expect they are composites of veterans The George has met or known or heard of. The only one of Rhaegar's rubies that matter is the seventh one they are waiting for. And it is not red with rust. 

[YOVMO]

4 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I just started Feast, so I will come back to this thread when I follow Meribald and Dog onto the Quiet Isle. As you say, the grave digger is Sandor. There is some really good foreshadowing for the grave digger in Davos's Blackwater chapter and the Oberyn-Gregor duel. I think the Elder Brother and Septon Meribald are just whom they appear to be. If they are anyone, I would expect they are composites of veterans The George has met or known or heard of. The only one of Rhaegar's rubies that matter is the seventh one they are waiting for. And it is not red with rust. 

Do keep in touch with thread after your read. I agree with the davos blackwater foreshadowing for sure! I am not sure that the 7th ruby is the only one that matters. I mean, to claim that 6 rubies have washed ashore was interesting. I actually might go back to the chapter later today to make an exhaustive list of all the "things" that are named as showing up on the shore.

[YOVMO]

3 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

I think the Elder Brother and Septon Meribald are just whom they appear to be.

I just can't tell on this one. Septon Meribald is a really interesting character. The Elder Brother even more so. He has some kind of mysterious power of healing. He was a knight and the son of a landed knight (though since he was a third son not a landed knight in his own right). He must have had a Surname when he was a knight and even if that surname doesn't have a family history behind it, surely he will have had a liege lord who did. I mean, if the elder brother fought for a royalist lord it would have had to been Tyrell, Martell, Darry,Ryger, Mooton or Good brook (as Connington, Cafferen, Fell and the rest of the houses went over to the rebels by the time the trident was fought). I think it would be pretty clear if EB had Dornish features. But whichever house he fought for would mean something different. And that is just if he is some regular third son of a landed knight that won his spurs. Who knighted him? He speaks with Cagey language (as evinced in his constantly saying that the hound is at peace and never sandor Clegane is dead) so we know he has a propensity towards half truths.

 

That said, of course grrm could just be world building and for the EB to just be some knight is interesting in and of it self, it just seems like there is a lot going on there.

 

ALso, that damn High Harpist really bugs me.

 

[Springwatch]

29 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

ALso, that damn High Harpist really bugs me.

Me too, now you come to mention it. Was there ever a monk in history who played harp?

ETA Unless... they were given or found a harp, one lost in the chaos of war. Rhaegar's?

46 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

... The only one of Rhaegar's rubies that matter is the seventh one they are waiting for. And it is not red with rust. 

You surprise me - why can't the seventh ruby be also a rusty dragon? (I'm betting on Jon Snow for both - working on the theory that Jon is a legitimate Targ who was later classed bastard, so his colours reverse.) I'd also be disappointed if at least the seventh ruby didn't turn up in person at the Quiet Isle. But I don't think any of the current occupiers are rubies or dragons.

[YOVMO]

9 minutes ago, Springwatch said:

Me too, now you come to mention it. Was there ever a monk in history who played harp?

ETA Unless... they were given or found a harp, one lost in the chaos of war. Rhaegar's?

But even if he did find it, monks aren't the sort who would have learned High Harp. Well born children who lived in castles with maesters learned the high harp. It isn't like finding a bongo drum and figuring it out. More like finding a violin. If you had no training It would basically just be a paperweight to you.  And that the music was described as sweet and sad makes it really odd. It is totally out of place. We have plenty of instances of people singing at dinner at the wall and none of them play harp.

 

Littlefinger tells Sansa, also, "a harp can be as dangerous as a sword in the right hands."

 

Even bards like Dareon, Symon Silver Tongue, Marillion, Tom of Sevens played woodharp...not high harp.

 

Of all the harpests that are mentioned the only ones we are told specficially play high harp are Rhaegar, Queen Naerys, Domeric Bolton, Leonette Fossoway, Sansa and the unknown brother on the Quiet Isla. After that you have Michel Manwoody, Lord PEarson Caron, Hamish the Harper, Guyard Morrigen and Rylona Rhee who play some kind of harp but whether it is wood harp or high harp I don't know.

Some more harping about harps. High Harp is the only thing that becalms sweetrobin when he has a fit.

 

In her vision at the house of the undying Dany sees Rhaegar play the harp and "sweet sadness fills the room" contrasted with the "sweet sad music" the unnamed harpist was playing.

The more I think about it the more I feel I need to organize my thoughts and references and write a harp post

 

[Runaway Penguin]

Re. powers of healing, they need not be mystical. he just can know herbs, workings of human body etc... better than others. Years on Quiet Isle would give him plenty of subjects to get better

Remember: Magic is often just knowing more than most other people. Magic of Drowned Priests is, in large part, good CPR training etc...

 

[Frey family reunion]

If we take the Elder Brother at his word, and he is from a House that has previously been mentioned in the books, then I think he had to come from House Fossoway of the Green apple branch.

AFFC followed on the heels of the Hedge Knight.  We observe the founding of the Green Apple branch of House Fossoway, of House Fossoway of New Barrel.  The House is founded by Ser Raymun Fossoway, who provides aid to Duncan the Tall (who in turn may very well be an ancestor of Brienne).

Quote

I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord who had decided to support the dragon rather than the stag.

The fact that he served a lord who served a lord who served a lord, makes me think that he had to come from one of the knightly houses from  one of the regions governed by one of the seven major houses.  The knightly houses generally serve under a house of the region and that house in turn serves under the major family of that region.  So Fossoway being a knightly house, serves under another lord in the reach who in turn serves under House Tyrell.  And House Tyrell, other than Dorne, is really the only major house who fought for the Targaryens. 

The Dornish also appear to be readily identifiable through accent and/or appearance.  The Elder Brother is never described as looking or sounding Dornish, nor does he talk as if he considers himself Dornish:

Quote

"Your Dornishman did not lie," the Elder Brother began, "but I fear you did not understand him."

So really the only knightly family we are introduced to in the Reach are Fossoways.

Then the Elder Brother indicated that his father was a knight, and his before him.  That is where he stops.  The Elder Brother's grandfather could have dated back to the events of the Hedge Knight, which could make his grandfather, Ser Raymun Fossoway. who was knighted during the events of the Hedge Knight, and who was relying on being knighted by his cousin Ser Steffon, which makes me think he didn't have anyone in his immediate family who could have knighted him.

Finally GRRM may have given us another clever clue, in that the Quiet Isle is known for it's cider:

Quote

"We brew our own ale as well, and our mead and cider are famed."

"You must be thirsty.  Please, have some of our sweet cider to wash the dust of travel from your throats".

And of course cider is made from fermented apples.

[Wolf of the Steppes]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

If we take the Elder Brother at his word, and he is from a House that has previously been mentioned in the books, then I think he had to come from House Fossoway of the Green apple branch.

AFFC followed on the heels of the Hedge Knight.  We observe the founding of the Green Apple branch of House Fossoway, of House Fossoway of New Barrel.  The House is founded by Ser Raymun Fossoway, who provides aid to Duncan the Tall (who in turn may very well be an ancestor of Brienne).

The fact that he served a lord who served a lord who served a lord, makes me think that he had to come from one of the knightly houses from  one of the regions governed by one of the seven major houses.  The knightly houses generally serve under a house of the region and that house in turn serves under the major family of that region.  So Fossoway being a knightly house, serves under another lord in the reach who in turn serves under House Martell.  And House Martell, other than Dorne, is really the only major house who fought for the Targaryens. 

The Dornish also appear to be readily identifiable through accent and/or appearance.  The Elder Brother is never described as looking or sounding Dornish, nor does he talk as if he considers himself Dornish:

So really the only knightly family we are introduced to in the Reach are Fossoways.

Then the Elder Brother indicated that his father was a knight, and his before him.  That is where he stops.  The Elder Brother's grandfather could have dated back to the events of the Hedge Knight, which could make his grandfather, Ser Raymun Fossoway. who was knighted during the events of the Hedge Knight, and who was relying on being knighted by his cousin Ser Steffon, which makes me think he didn't have anyone in his immediate family who could have knighted him.

Finally GRRM may have given us another clever clue, in that the Quiet Isle is known for it's cider:

And of course cider is made from fermented apples.

Beautifully reasoned!  

I think you meant House Tyrell though, right?

[Frey family reunion]

3 minutes ago, Wolf of the Steppes said:

Beautifully reasoned!  

I think you meant House Tyrell though, right?

Yes I always confuse that for some reason I corrected it.

[YOVMO]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

If we take the Elder Brother at his word, and he is from a House that has previously been mentioned in the books, then I think he had to come from House Fossoway of the Green apple branch.

AFFC followed on the heels of the Hedge Knight.  We observe the founding of the Green Apple branch of House Fossoway, of House Fossoway of New Barrel.  The House is founded by Ser Raymun Fossoway, who provides aid to Duncan the Tall (who in turn may very well be an ancestor of Brienne).

The fact that he served a lord who served a lord who served a lord, makes me think that he had to come from one of the knightly houses from  one of the regions governed by one of the seven major houses.  The knightly houses generally serve under a house of the region and that house in turn serves under the major family of that region.  So Fossoway being a knightly house, serves under another lord in the reach who in turn serves under House Martell.  And House Martell, other than Dorne, is really the only major house who fought for the Targaryens. 

The Dornish also appear to be readily identifiable through accent and/or appearance.  The Elder Brother is never described as looking or sounding Dornish, nor does he talk as if he considers himself Dornish:

So really the only knightly family we are introduced to in the Reach are Fossoways.

Then the Elder Brother indicated that his father was a knight, and his before him.  That is where he stops.  The Elder Brother's grandfather could have dated back to the events of the Hedge Knight, which could make his grandfather, Ser Raymun Fossoway. who was knighted during the events of the Hedge Knight, and who was relying on being knighted by his cousin Ser Steffon, which makes me think he didn't have anyone in his immediate family who could have knighted him.

Finally GRRM may have given us another clever clue, in that the Quiet Isle is known for it's cider:

And of course cider is made from fermented apples.

Outstanding and superbly done. Thank you. 

[YOVMO]

1 hour ago, Runaway Penguin said:

Re. powers of healing, they need not be mystical. he just can know herbs, workings of human body etc... better than others. Years on Quiet Isle would give him plenty of subjects to get better

Remember: Magic is often just knowing more than most other people. Magic of Drowned Priests is, in large part, good CPR training etc...

 

I agree with you on magic and tend to try to play down the magic in ASOIAF. But keep in mind the elder brother isn't just a healer. He is a truly gifted healer. Ok not so bad. Also he cures people when many maesters had given up. Also, he found the hound and basically turned him into a worker monk. We see this again when he is talking to Brienne for like 5 minutes and she blurts out all her sercrets. There is def something special about his abilities that goes beyond herblore and cpr I would think

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Do keep in touch with thread after your read. I agree with the davos blackwater foreshadowing for sure! I am not sure that the 7th ruby is the only one that matters. I mean, to claim that 6 rubies have washed ashore was interesting. I actually might go back to the chapter later today to make an exhaustive list of all the "things" that are named as showing up on the shore.

Have you seen this?

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, Springwatch said:

Me too, now you come to mention it. Was there ever a monk in history who played harp?

ETA Unless... they were given or found a harp, one lost in the chaos of war. Rhaegar's?

You surprise me - why can't the seventh ruby be also a rusty dragon? (I'm betting on Jon Snow for both - working on the theory that Jon is a legitimate Targ who was later classed bastard, so his colours reverse.) I'd also be disappointed if at least the seventh ruby didn't turn up in person at the Quiet Isle. But I don't think any of the current occupiers are rubies or dragons.

Yes, I agree the ruby of Rhaegar they are waiting for is Jon Snow. But I expect they will believe Aegon, who has crossed the water, a black dragon disguised as a red one. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, YOVMO said:

But even if he did find it, monks aren't the sort who would have learned High Harp. Well born children who lived in castles with maesters learned the high harp. It isn't like finding a bongo drum and figuring it out. More like finding a violin. If you had no training It would basically just be a paperweight to you.  And that the music was described as sweet and sad makes it really odd. It is totally out of place. We have plenty of instances of people singing at dinner at the wall and none of them play harp.

 

Littlefinger tells Sansa, also, "a harp can be as dangerous as a sword in the right hands."

 

Even bards like Dareon, Symon Silver Tongue, Marillion, Tom of Sevens played woodharp...not high harp.

 

Of all the harpests that are mentioned the only ones we are told specficially play high harp are Rhaegar, Queen Naerys, Domeric Bolton, Leonette Fossoway, Sansa and the unknown brother on the Quiet Isla. After that you have Michel Manwoody, Lord PEarson Caron, Hamish the Harper, Guyard Morrigen and Rylona Rhee who play some kind of harp but whether it is wood harp or high harp I don't know.

Some more harping about harps. High Harp is the only thing that becalms sweetrobin when he has a fit.

 

In her vision at the house of the undying Dany sees Rhaegar play the harp and "sweet sadness fills the room" contrasted with the "sweet sad music" the unnamed harpist was playing.

The more I think about it the more I feel I need to organize my thoughts and references and write a harp post

 

I ddon't know... weren't priests often trained to sing and play music in the middle ages? 

[Locksley]

Excuse my ignorance but can someone explain Rhaegar's rubies to me or direct me somewhere that explains this theory. It has obviously been a while since I read aFfC and I always thought they were talking about the rubies from his armour.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Locksley said:

Excuse my ignorance but can someone explain Rhaegar's rubies to me or direct me somewhere that explains this theory. It has obviously been a while since I read aFfC and I always thought they were talking about the rubies from his armour.

Follow this.

[YOVMO]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I ddon't know... weren't priests often trained to sing and play music in the middle ages? 

But that is just it: This isn't singing and it isn't just playing music. High Harp would have been an instrument that you would have only seen in the hands of wealthy people for the most part. It's like, if I said I play the guitar that doesn't really mean anything to you. Loads of people play the guitar. But if I tell you I play the glockenspiel it would probably point to a very particular kind of upbringing. 

 

The wood harp would have been a much more common kind of instrument. Plenty of singers and even people in the merchant class might have known how to play a little. But the high harp, think like one of those big fancy harps, is a name that GRRM specifically gives an instrument (It isn't called a high harp in real life) and shows only the very wealthy people playing it. I will look up in the concordance, but I think at one point even Sansa, daughter of the warden of the north, complained that she didn't have anyone to teach her high harp at winterfell so Leonetta Fossoway (I don't remember if she is a green apple or a red apple fossaway but maybe this has to do with the elder brother) starts to teach her.

 

It would be incredibly uncommon for a member of the clergy to play an instrument that is pretty huge sign of wealth, class and aristocracy.

[YOVMO]

2 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Have you seen this?

I hadn't and it makes very good sense to me. That JS was going to be the seventh ruby I feel is fairly certain though not 100%. My problem is with who are the other 6. The elder brother mentions that 

"We have found silver cups and iron pots, sacks of wool and bolts of silk, rusted helms and shining swords... aye, and rubies.”

So he is talking about the gifts that the water have washed up on the shores of the QI. He says they have found, aside from drift wood, silver, iron, wool, silk, rusted helms, shining swords and rubies. So the first thing that stands our is that the list is made up of opposites. Silver Cups and Iron Pots (fine/wealth, cheap/peasantry) Wool/silk (also a dichotomy between privileged class and the peasants but also possibly pointing to the silk of royalty and the wool of the clergy), shining swords and rusted helms, (again the wealthy and poor) and then a seventh which stands alone....rubies.

6 Have been found and we are waiting for the 7th. Like I say, I buy that the 7th is Jon for all the reasons listed including that as the 7th ruby he, internally, is a dichotomy (being the most high birth but being a bastard, being ice and fire) so in the one ruby you fulfill the duality shown in the other items which are found.

 

What I am having issue with is accepting that the other 6 rubies are the other targs. First, they are not his offspring (though yes they are his blood) but most importantly, none of them that we know (and some could not possibly have been) to the Quiet Island. So when the Elder brother says "rubies" as in 6 rubies have washed up and now everyone (on the island? in westeros? in the world?) is waiting for the seventh. I think the other 6 rubies are not necessarily that list. It mentions

Rhaegar

Viserys

Dany

Rhaenys

Aegon

Rhego

and Jon Snow as the Seventh.

 

So first I am going to say, as I said twice above. I will grant Jon Snow as the Seventh. But Rhaegar being one of his own Rubies makes 0 sense. Aegon and Rhaenys as his children but neither of them have washed up ashore on the Quiet Island. Vicerys and Dany were his brother and sister (or Dany was a daughter) if you believe Preston Jacobs, but were they his rubies....? I don't know. I mean, they are of the same blood, but they were children...dany unborn and again, never washed up on the shores of the quiet island. Rhego died in childbirth after Rhaegar had been dead. 

 

I am not willing to say that it is totally wrong. I am not totally nuts  but I will say there is something fishy about it. There is a high harpist on the island. There is a Fossaway connected to the time of the Hedge Knight. Elder Brother specifically says the rubies washed up on the island not "oh we heard about some rubies and some dragons across the narrow sea)....I just sense that there is more going on here.

[Arya_Stupid!]

7 hours ago, YOVMO said:

Other crazy stuff from this section is where you learn that saltpans is a very minor port which makes it odd that the Titan's Daughter was there just in the nick of time when Arya was looking for a ship to Braavos with a braavosi who would be kindly inclined towards faceless men types and passed several major ports without stopping on the return to Braavos.

 

THis really is one of the most dense and inscrutable chapters. Any good thoughts on any of this stuff?

With regards to the Titan's Daughter being at Saltpans, it may be a small port but there are really only like 5 major ports on the eastern shore of Westeros. White Harbor, Gulltown, Saltpans, King's Landing and Sunspear.

The father north you go, the worse the Autumn storms would be, the farther south you go, the greater risk of being drawn into the war, or being confined to the port you land in (like Stannis did at Dragonstone.) 

So, IMO, a smaller more central port town would probably be the best bet for survival. Also, Braavos is almost directly across the Narrow Sea from the Vale, so either Gulltown or Saltpans may just be their regular Westerosi trade route?

 

In regards to their 'Faceless Man Friendliness', i was always under the impression that the Bravosii are ALL of the same mind, and it wouldn't have mattered which Braavosii ship was in port - as long as it was captained by a Braavosii. 

This is a secret city which was actually Founded by this cult, therefore it makes sense to me that the peoples of Braavos would be inclined to see this as a type of life-debt to the FM as a whole, and pass on the 'practice' of Valar Morghulis / Valar Dohaeris to the whole of the city. (There are also the connections between the Iron Bank and the Faceless Men, which, though inconclusive at this point, make me think that Braavos, as a city state, is run extremely different than any other nation/Kingdom we have heard about yet.)