BricksAndSparrows Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 14 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said: If you wanna call me out for 'bullshit', make sure I don't add a frickin disclaimer in the post. And Duskendale in total is easily 1 in a million. The fighting wasn't so much. In video games parlance, it's escort mission with fewer enemies vs running into a meat grinder. And Selmy was on horseback and running when Tywin was clearing the walls. He wasn't fighting. Once they got past the stables, there was no more fighting. “He hurried with the king to the stables, fighting his way through those who tried to intervene, and the two were able to ride out of Dun Fort before the castle’s gates could be closed. Then there was the wild ride through the streets of Duskendale, while horns and trumpets sounded the alarm, and the race up to the walls as Lord Tywin’s archers attempted to clear it of defenders.” Now he definitely was a John McClain clone or better during the rescue but you don't have to dress it up. Oh, I wouldn't call it bullshit. I just think you were kinda padding your facts. I will say that I really got interested in this thread when someone mentioned "prime Barristan" vs. Robert, and I sorta lost sight of the original question. I would be willing to reconsider my answer. Does Trident Barristan constitute Prime Barristan? Or close enough to make no difference? I dont really know. But then if they did meet on the Trident, they likely would have been on horseback so... Hmmmm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 5 hours ago, BricksAndSparrows said: Oh, I wouldn't call it bullshit. I just think you were kinda padding your facts. I will say that I really got interested in this thread when someone mentioned "prime Barristan" vs. Robert, and I sorta lost sight of the original question. I would be willing to reconsider my answer. Does Trident Barristan constitute Prime Barristan? Or close enough to make no difference? I dont really know. But then if they did meet on the Trident, they likely would have been on horseback so... Hmmmm... I might call the blame on me for that, because i consider their primes equal i started comparing them on those basis But thinking about it, barristan ages "slowly" since he kicks ass at 60 at the trident he was on his early 40's so, for a guy like him who stays in shape as a kg and later lord commander, i would say he was close to his prime at the trident... Robert was 21 i believe, but he isn't the kind of guy who would stay in prime shape past 30 even if he was an lp all his life i believe, there's much more booze and food than battles, but... If he was in rhaegar's place he could very well kill bob because on horseback he had more experience in battle than rhaegar but the targ prince was an excellent jouster aswell so... But i would belive in barri charging a cut and evade fast thanks to the horse Had they met on foot, like i said before, i give the advantages to bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 16 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said: Is there really no chance that Daemon Targ Daemon Blackfyre or even Maegor could hang with these guys? Also if a warhammer is so perfect for executing enemies why did tywin not supply a trainer for Gregor to use 1 (he could lift 2 actually) But obviously that's not very tactical whatsoever but he could still have a giant one that would be light for him. And by the way, the mountain could possibly be your 4th not Robert (or oberyn and don't y'all dare say oberyn is inferior to any of these guys or you're.... Not reading well enough) I thinks it's ridiculous to say (especially these books) that there are 4 warriors "without peer" - Yes there is, DB or AD are not inferior in sword skill but it's normal like in sports today, that people with the same skill level in their time have a little bit advantage if said time is 100 years or so after, because of things like better nutrition or more fighting knowledge... a great soldier today knows more than a great one centuries back IMO... if skills are equal of course, Jorah is no Daemon - Tywin couldn´t care less, Gregor was already a monster, and the old lyon wasn´t there to educate him from childhood, Gregor had access to all kinds of weapons aside VS so, he just might have thought a longsword and his size were suficient, and not everybody likes a warhammer or mace or develops great skills with it, i trained as hard as ronaldo since i was a child but our skill with a football is astronomicaly different... - Robert isn´t number 4 for me because he isn´t inferior to the other 3, based on the author's amount of feats or quotes in or out of the books makes imo those 4 the best... Robert has legendary prowess by word of god, Jaime was said by grrm to be one of the best swordsman ever, we know selmy is and dayne is his equal per george's mouth... Oberyn and gregor are not far behind by the margin of selmy (and they might not be behind at all depending of the duel conditions), but by now no one else but those 4 has the author out of the possible bias in book characters, admit those levels of skill +/or feats - those 4 are those who i consider most gifted, but personal opinion is still a right, if you think oberyn is the best or 3 or 4, you'll only change that idea if you want, no stress whatsoever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BricksAndSparrows Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 There are some videos on YouTube where medieval enthusiasts perform tests with swords and armor. I saw one where the dress dummies (made from ballistic gelatin and or animal bones, rib cages, etc..) in armor and take swings at them with various melee weapons. You get see the durability of the armor and the damage sustained by the person being hit. Obviously it's not completely equivalent, but it's enlightening. I think often times, in these "what if?" battle scenarios, the debaters make the assumption that the combatants are encountering the challenges posed by their opponents for the first time. For example, in the "Drogo vs. Knight" debate, it was often assumed that Drogo Would have been battling and armored opponent for the first time, and therefore be unprepared for the challenges that entails. I won't get into that debate, but it's easy to make a similar assumption with Selmy vs. Robert's (fearsome, lethal) hammer. The lethality of the hammer is the reason why it's used. Even in the hands of a lesser warrior, the one hit, one kill danger is still there. Look at Maekar vs. Baelor Breakspear... So while Barristan could ABSOLUTELY be struck dead with a single blow, I think it's safe to say he encountered that in every significant battle he fought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 15 hours ago, BricksAndSparrows said: Oh, I wouldn't call it bullshit. I just think you were kinda padding your facts. I will say that I really got interested in this thread when someone mentioned "prime Barristan" vs. Robert, and I sorta lost sight of the original question. I would be willing to reconsider my answer. Does Trident Barristan constitute Prime Barristan? Or close enough to make no difference? I dont really know. But then if they did meet on the Trident, they likely would have been on horseback so... Hmmmm... Prime Barristan is a badass, total and utterly. I think Prime Barry vs Rob would be pretty much the ultimate PPV in Westeros. You are completely right there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
For Highgarden Posted September 12, 2016 Share Posted September 12, 2016 Barristan would beat Robert. Robert had extra angry energy for his bride napper on the trident that I don't feel he would have had vs Selmy on that day. He didn't last in the Kings guard that long without being smart about keeping his head on his shoulders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted September 20, 2016 Share Posted September 20, 2016 On 10/09/2016 at 1:22 PM, Laughing Storm Reborn said: Yeah it's fun stuff and hard for me to think out of fanboy zone, those 2 are my favourite warriors, stormlanders representing, i'm a solid snake fanatic and young selmy is short of a bandana mate As said I rate prime Robert very much. Jeez imagine the site of a furious 7 feet tall knight in full plate armour, wielding a heavy, armour piercing warhammer like a twig. That site alone would make anybody shit in his pants. The noblemen who had spent their lives sparring with people whose life depended in not hurting their Lord (or making him look too bad) wouldn't even know what hit them while veteran soldiers would struggle against a well trained knight of such size, fury and strength. However Selmy is no common soldier. He's a child soldier (and a child prodigy), with years of experience in fighting in all sort of circumstances (knight, soldier, bodyguard, in sneaking missions) and against all sort of enemy. The man is so deceiving that he was able to serve under a mad king and switch sides four sides Targ -> Baratheon -> Lannister (Joffrey is not a Baratheon) -> Targ and still maintain the role of a honourable man rather then that of a hired hand. The one holding the novelty card will not be Robert this time round but Selmy. It all depends on the circumstances though a- are they both fresh from the fight? (time is on Robert side not Selmy) b- is Rhaegar in danger? c- are they both on foot? etc Ironically Rhaegar was more of a burden to the royalists then of any help. Having an honourable and inexperienced fool who had already underestimated the whole situation ones (ie by kidnapping Lyanna) in the field was stupid, especially since a big chunk of his army hated him for what he did to Elia. Clear testament to that was the fact that despite the royalists had a bigger and more equipped army, Robert was still able to reach the crown prince/lead commander and kill him. I doubt that would have happened if Randyll Tarly/Tywin Lannister were in command Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted September 23, 2016 Share Posted September 23, 2016 They are both great fighters, but I genuinely believe that nothing was going to stand in Robert Baratheon's way that particular day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 On 20/09/2016 at 6:44 PM, devilish said: As said I rate prime Robert very much. Jeez imagine the site of a furious 7 feet tall knight in full plate armour, wielding a heavy, armour piercing warhammer like a twig. That site alone would make anybody shit in his pants. The noblemen who had spent their lives sparring with people whose life depended in not hurting their Lord (or making him look too bad) wouldn't even know what hit them while veteran soldiers would struggle against a well trained knight of such size, fury and strength. However Selmy is no common soldier. He's a child soldier (and a child prodigy), with years of experience in fighting in all sort of circumstances (knight, soldier, bodyguard, in sneaking missions) and against all sort of enemy. The man is so deceiving that he was able to serve under a mad king and switch sides four sides Targ -> Baratheon -> Lannister (Joffrey is not a Baratheon) -> Targ and still maintain the role of a honourable man rather then that of a hired hand. The one holding the novelty card will not be Robert this time round but Selmy. It all depends on the circumstances though a- are they both fresh from the fight? (time is on Robert side not Selmy) b- is Rhaegar in danger? c- are they both on foot? etc Ironically Rhaegar was more of a burden to the royalists then of any help. Having an honourable and inexperienced fool who had already underestimated the whole situation ones (ie by kidnapping Lyanna) in the field was stupid, especially since a big chunk of his army hated him for what he did to Elia. Clear testament to that was the fact that despite the royalists had a bigger and more equipped army, Robert was still able to reach the crown prince/lead commander and kill him. I doubt that would have happened if Randyll Tarly/Tywin Lannister were in command Jesus am i late, sorry man It's difficult to put aside my fanboyism for what i believe is the greatest single combat duel ever, one i consider the greatest soldier ever, the other the greatest warrior... Agree that selmy is a child soldier, i just think robert is too (mentally), difference being selmy had the chance to show it earlier... Ned says he should be given battle in the afterlife, Sandor's opinion of him, Dany's information about him loving nothing BUT war, jorah's dothraki comment, Barristan himself atesting bob's love for fighting, stannis, donal noye, grrm in a ssm saying robert was always searching for choice fights and tourneys in the 7 kingdoms while ned would go home to WF in their vale breaks... barristan was like robert the heir to a noble house so none had the obligation to be obsessed with battle and were financialy protected, bob grew up in two of the most marshal places in westeros, one would be the first along with the dornish marshes imo (storm's end) and the mountains of the vale of arryn (top 5 imo), both are stormlanders and we know how marshal those are... One thing i stress about Barri is that in his youth he was BARRISTAN THE BOLD, like young Robert was bold... his cerebral fighter self came later after his fitness prime, something Bob never peaked because of his short life, but Robert was given godly genetics, power, speed and reach perfectly placed for this setup... Barristan is excelent at everything, with steel on the ground or on horseback he's the reaper, the red painter... but again Bob has per author the same level of personal weapon skill, and Barri's advantage of experience places him out of his prime (wich he needs to be to fight Bob 1v1) so... I see a picture of the two fighting 1v1 and Barristan needs more "luck" than Robert to win, up close and personal is inevitable, none of them is fast enough to evade one another because these are too adult men in armour with steel in hand (not like yoda who can summersault dudes while dueling)... skill being the same i'm going to give the advantage to the warhammer in the hands of a powerful one hit killer with good speed and great reach, even if they lunged at eachother to avoid the weapons, h2h robert would be "gregor effective" and break barri's neck in two because mma wasn´t a thing back then (this on foot, because i've stressed that barri would kill bob on horseback battle like he did maelys, and having into acount their importance in battle there's a high chance they would meet on horse and selmy would add another, a tough one, but another)... can prime Barristan win on foot aswell? yes (so can dayne or jaime)... do i see prime Bob having the advantage? yep, because the experience prime selmy (not agot selmy) has over prime robert isn´t enough imo to counter bob's superior genetics and good exp aswell... if grrm gave gregor sword skill at selmy's level no one would face him... like if selmy's agot brain could be inserted in his prime self, NO ONE would touch him... and george gave prime bob almost cheat codes my two cents, but like george would say it almost for certain... "it could go either way" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aetta Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 The gods wanted Rhaegar, not Barristan. That is the beauty of the whole thing, so any other scenario is not nearly as compelling in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted October 3, 2016 Share Posted October 3, 2016 On 01/10/2016 at 0:28 AM, Laughing Storm Reborn said: Jesus am i late, sorry man It's difficult to put aside my fanboyism for what i believe is the greatest single combat duel ever, one i consider the greatest soldier ever, the other the greatest warrior... Agree that selmy is a child soldier, i just think robert is too (mentally), difference being selmy had the chance to show it earlier... Ned says he should be given battle in the afterlife, Sandor's opinion of him, Dany's information about him loving nothing BUT war, jorah's dothraki comment, Barristan himself atesting bob's love for fighting, stannis, donal noye, grrm in a ssm saying robert was always searching for choice fights and tourneys in the 7 kingdoms while ned would go home to WF in their vale breaks... barristan was like robert the heir to a noble house so none had the obligation to be obsessed with battle and were financialy protected, bob grew up in two of the most marshal places in westeros, one would be the first along with the dornish marshes imo (storm's end) and the mountains of the vale of arryn (top 5 imo), both are stormlanders and we know how marshal those are... One thing i stress about Barri is that in his youth he was BARRISTAN THE BOLD, like young Robert was bold... his cerebral fighter self came later after his fitness prime, something Bob never peaked because of his short life, but Robert was given godly genetics, power, speed and reach perfectly placed for this setup... Barristan is excelent at everything, with steel on the ground or on horseback he's the reaper, the red painter... but again Bob has per author the same level of personal weapon skill, and Barri's advantage of experience places him out of his prime (wich he needs to be to fight Bob 1v1) so... I see a picture of the two fighting 1v1 and Barristan needs more "luck" than Robert to win, up close and personal is inevitable, none of them is fast enough to evade one another because these are too adult men in armour with steel in hand (not like yoda who can summersault dudes while dueling)... skill being the same i'm going to give the advantage to the warhammer in the hands of a powerful one hit killer with good speed and great reach, even if they lunged at eachother to avoid the weapons, h2h robert would be "gregor effective" and break barri's neck in two because mma wasn´t a thing back then (this on foot, because i've stressed that barri would kill bob on horseback battle like he did maelys, and having into acount their importance in battle there's a high chance they would meet on horse and selmy would add another, a tough one, but another)... can prime Barristan win on foot aswell? yes (so can dayne or jaime)... do i see prime Bob having the advantage? yep, because the experience prime selmy (not agot selmy) has over prime robert isn´t enough imo to counter bob's superior genetics and good exp aswell... if grrm gave gregor sword skill at selmy's level no one would face him... like if selmy's agot brain could be inserted in his prime self, NO ONE would touch him... and george gave prime bob almost cheat codes my two cents, but like george would say it almost for certain... "it could go either way" No worries mate and tbf you’re doing a great job in keeping fanboyism at a side by backing your arguments with some mature arguments rather than simply go full extremism as others tend to do. TBF I may have a slight advantage on this argument because I practiced martial arts and I am a history nerd. The former teach you to analyse a person deeply, his experience, the emotions he’s feeling during a fight etc. I’ve seen seasoned fighters getting a beat up from rookies because their state of mind wasn’t right. The latter helps you understand how armour and weapons work. In reality there are so many things to take in consideration that it’s almost impossible to come out with a definitive result. I believe that a more competent question would be what would have been the outcome if Rhaegar allowed his more experienced peers to handle the war? Throughout the war we see, numerous mistakes committed by the loyalists whom, at the start of the war, could rely on a bigger and more equipped army. a- Negotiations with Tywin should have started from day 1. Promise the man anything from the hand of the king role to the release of Jamie from KG once the war is over right to a prestigious marriage between Cersei and Viserys (needless to say who will be appointed the next Paramount of the Vale, after the war is over) and Rhaenys and Jamie. All he has to do is to commit his troops to the cause. b- Similar offer would be extended to the Freys. Walder would be the enemy within the rebel’s camp in exchange of the Lordship of the Riverlands. c- The loyalist army should have capitalized on the Battle of Ashford. Instead Mace Tyrell (who shouldn’t even be at the head of the Tyrell forces in the first place) messed that out and the 20ish old hand of the king continued the mess at the battle of the bells. Someone with brains would have given Mace an honorary title within the small council (Master of Law?) sweetened by the promise of a royal wedding between Aegon and a Tyrell (assuming a female Tyrell is born). That would have kept Mace happy and it would pave the way for Randyll to take control over the Reach army. d- The Tyrell army should have never spent most of the war guarding an insignificant fortress. Their troops would have been better utilized elsewhere e- The best sword man in Westeros and the battle hardened Gerold Hightower (who lead the royalist army during the nine penny kings war) should have been at the battle of the trident instead of covering the role of glorified sentry men for the crown prince’s concubine. f- Whatever happens, Rhaegar should have never been allowed to be anywhere near to the battle of the trident. The loyalists enjoyed numerical superiority and were better equipped. They also had some of the finest fighting people (Dayne, Selmy etc), the finest and most numerous cavalry (which often decided the war) and the most experienced/bright generals around (Tarly, Hightower and probably Tywin). They also knew that Robert would lead from the front which means that all they had to do was to spot the big man upfront and either run him up with cavalry or fire as many arrows to his direction. Once Robert died it would have been game over. This battle for theirs to lose. Instead Robert was able to reach the sloppy rookie and knock him out winning the war with a single hit with his Warhammer. So to answer your question, the war would have probably be different if Rhaegar had a much minor role. Hightower and Tarly would probably use their superior numbers and cavalry to encircle the enemy and build an impregnable buffer zone between the enemy and them. Selmy and Dayne would be the infantry and the cavalry only to join the fray when there’s a Lord ripe for the picking. Rhaegar on the other hand would be at the back with Tarly, Tywin and Hightower, observing and learning on how military warfare work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted October 5, 2016 Share Posted October 5, 2016 On 03/10/2016 at 1:47 PM, devilish said: So to answer your question, the war would have probably be different if Rhaegar had a much minor role. Hightower and Tarly would probably use their superior numbers and cavalry to encircle the enemy and build an impregnable buffer zone between the enemy and them. Selmy and Dayne would be the infantry and the cavalry only to join the fray when there’s a Lord ripe for the picking. Rhaegar on the other hand would be at the back with Tarly, Tywin and Hightower, observing and learning on how military warfare work. I can keep up a little did 3 years of kickboxing and being european i was hammered in medieval and 18 century warfare since i was a boy, the crusades and the napoleonic wars in particular... but i'm no history buff mind you, just prepared... It's rather certain that the loyalists made large mistakes, since in the vast majority of cases the rebells do not have the amount of resources the ones in power have... What is also correct is that for a rebellion to be successfull the rebels need the best of the best to counter the established power, and Robert was a war god both in personal combat and as a commander (many, many weaknesses but marshal prowess was "his by rights"), so when you´re fighting a guy that good you need a perfect plan, even if you have the greater numbers... by the time of the Trident it wasn't obvious, but Bob was already young napoleonic (midnight rides, forced marshes, quick offensive trumps slow defence), he lost one battle that would be impossible for anyone to contemplate winning except him, in the reach with remnants of a 3xbattle against skilled generals with 40k at their backs fighting at home... the fact he survived and knew when to leave is almost a victory in itself, because there was no way tarly would face him 1v1 because it´s suicide, he´s smart and the battle was in his favour... a. aerys, nuff said b. it works on option a. aswell that rhaegar thought he could win regardless, the rebells were underestimated stupidly having into acount their war feats, particulary robert's c. agree, robert should have been chased, destroying his home is a blow but not higher than killing the head himself d. yes, having SE is important if robert wasn´t an "all place fellow", he could be a leader anywhere, the vale for example is his home as much as SE e. yes (plotwise whe still do not know what the hell were they doing) f. all resources in hand would be a loyalist victory no matter how good a commander robert was (he still wasn´t at his prime like in the GR)... having hightower and tarly at the back and robert being in the vanguard is already a challenge because the loyals had more, with the reach 3 times more almost... Rhaegar needed to be what he was... a royal prince... and stand as a banner and bait for Robert to be even more agressive in his advance... add the reach and westerlands and tywin would order a rain of arrows on robert even if it killed 4x more of his men... Dayne on the battle would be key if he teamed up with Selmy on Robert since imo 1v1 bob would kill him, hard fight but he would (unless he was caught on horseback)... but the two finest swordsmen ever imo tag teaming on a guy would be too much even if said guy were a one hit killer tank... But that´s easy to say now... how many times enemies are underestimated? but if jaime says in the books that aerys considered robert the biggest targ threat since daemon blackfyre why the hell his son couldn´t be at least as smart as his mad father? actually the fault is also on aerys because HE COMMANDS THE KG'S, order his son to bring dayne and hightower with him, and mace to go up the crownlands... what i think is that rhaegar convinced his mad dad (who might be surprised that his son did not bring the kg's with him) it wasn´t necessary, piece of cake, here i go to my grave... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRANDON GREYSTARK Posted November 26, 2016 Share Posted November 26, 2016 Robert would kill Barry , but that does not mean they might be crowning king Stannis a few days later . I notice everybody has been comparing Robert with Gregor ,he is more like Sandor ,both was about 6'6 , both loved the clash of swords. IMHO Robert's greatest weapon is his durability . He survived being wounded at the battle of Ashford ,wounded by Rhaegar at the Trident , and while being mortally wounded and drugged still manage to kill the boar barehanded and he could drink anybody maybe even Greatjon under the table . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthGirl Posted November 26, 2016 Share Posted November 26, 2016 Well, one: it's not as if by chance that he fought Rhaegar rather than Barristan. Barristan was on that battlefield with Rhaegar and the biggest reason why Robert and Rhaegar specifically fought against one another directly is because Rhaegar asked for a single combat to determine the outcome. Otherwise it could have been completely plausible for Robert to not fight either directly. The odds of them actually meeting on the battle field with tens of thousands on both sides are extremely low. Even with Robert running around gunning for Rhaegar. Most prudent and strategic army leaders/generals lead from the back, not the vanguard. Robert is noted as being one of the rare ones to lead the charge because he likes the action. As for what would have happened, if Robert's strength is not overly exaggerated, I doubt the outcome would have been much different with all other factors being the same. Meaning if both Robert and Barristan had sustained the same injuries by the time they would have convened to fight in a single combat. If it was less controlled and it happened in the middle of battle, I do think Robert had better odds but if he started to tire or was injured worse than Barristan, I don't find it unlikely that Barristan could have won. He has many years of experience and has had to fight many different adversaries, his experience would have given him an edge. He is still formidable 16/17 years later after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bronn Posted November 27, 2016 Share Posted November 27, 2016 Barristan at the Trident was not far from his prime or maybe in prime. He would win, Rhaegar was good, but not as good as Barry and he still wounded Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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