UK Politics: The Overton Defenestration

[Maltaran]

2 hours ago, mormont said:

UKIP's new leader stands down after 18 days.

She's obviously a fan of Big Sam

[Lordsteve666]

And Farage is back in as a temporary leader for the time being, the man just will not go away will he!

How much do we have to pay him to get lost for good?!?

[Maltaran]

18 minutes ago, Lordsteve666 said:

And Farage is back in as a temporary leader for the time being, the man just will not go away will he!

How much do we have to pay him to get lost for good?!?

Better than Neil Hamilton getting the job, at least

[Werthead]

Intriguing notion that firms will be asked to disclose the country of birth of all of their employees. Hopefully the firms will respond by telling the government to go fuck themselves (and the backlash has been so immense that they've already U-turned on it, which is spectacular going).

Also interesting ideas on housebuilding (risible funding, we might get 10% of the new houses we actually need), defence (making British troops immune to prosecution for war crimes) and health (continue the race to the bottom as soon as possible).

When May then said that the Tories had moved to the centre ground I fully expected the laughter track to kick in.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

17 hours ago, Werthead said:

Intriguing notion that firms will be asked to disclose the country of birth of all of their employees. Hopefully the firms will respond by telling the government to go fuck themselves (and the backlash has been so immense that they've already U-turned on it, which is spectacular going).

Also interesting ideas on housebuilding (risible funding, we might get 10% of the new houses we actually need), defence (making British troops immune to prosecution for war crimes) and health (continue the race to the bottom as soon as possible).

When May then said that the Tories had moved to the centre ground I fully expected the laughter track to kick in.

I find this 'listing of foreigners' idea bizarre. To the point where I cannot believe they put it out as an idea without having another motive. It is by far the biggest throwback to Nazi Germany so far. Makes me wonder if they wanted to distract from something, but coming off as insane racists doesn't seem the best way to do it. 

As for housing, which I think is actually possibly the biggest problem in the UK at the moment (huge asset bubble, entire economy based on false sense of wealth), building more houses simply won't cut it. We have too many cultural attachments to owning a home, plus an insane policy of lowering interest rates to keep the housing bubble going. I'm slightly terrified of what happens if and when it pops.

[mormont]

With regard to listing employees, here's what boils my piss about it: the talk of 'naming and shaming' employers, suggesting that employing people not from the UK is shameful. Fuck that. My non-UK employees are valued colleagues and if anyone wants to tell me I should be ashamed for having them on the payroll, they can go to hell.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

5 minutes ago, mormont said:

With regard to listing employees, here's what boils my piss about it: the talk of 'naming and shaming' employers, suggesting that employing people not from the UK is shameful. Fuck that. My non-UK employees are valued colleagues and if anyone wants to tell me I should be ashamed for having them on the payroll, they can go to hell.

Agree. Might as well make them wear a badge or something. 

Must be a call to the UKIP crowd, that the Conservatives feel their pain.

[SeanF]

I take the view that something's either lawful or unlawful.  Since it is lawful to employ foreign workers, companies shouldn't be "named and shamed" over it (I'm generally opposed to the idea of making companies monitor the sociological profile of their employees in any case.)

I've certainly no objection to making it harder to litigate against the British army, however.

[The BlackBear]

With UKIP's main reason gone, they're obviously looking to take their supporters in. Which you can't really argue with, what is the point of UKIP now?

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Having said all that, I've met a few people over the years who own businesses, and its amazing how many talk of only hiring foreign workers, and never hiring British workers. Mainly the cheapness of foreigner and their ability to work harder than British people is raised.

So it is a huge problem. But at the same time, shaming companies like this is probably the worst way to go about fixing it.

[HexMachina]

5 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Having said all that, I've met a few people over the years who own businesses, and its amazing how many talk of only hiring foreign workers, and never hiring British workers. Mainly the cheapness of foreigner .and their ability to work harder than British people is raised.

So it is a huge problem. But at the same time, shaming companies like this is probably the worst way to go about fixing it.

Surely a more appropriate response would then be "Company X employed Y% of employees from overseas and is paying them a lower wage than their equivalents in the UK". As for working harder, that's a legitimate reason to hire one candidate in preference to another IMO.

(I realise you aren't in favour of the idea of disclosure, just some thoughts from what you said)

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

5 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Surely a more appropriate response would then be "Company X employed Y% of employees from overseas and is paying them a lower wage than their equivalents in the UK". As for working harder, that's a legitimate reason to hire one candidate in preference to another IMO.

(I realise you aren't in favour of the idea of disclosure, just some thoughts from what you said)

I think its more 'Company X pays its employees £X amount which most British nationals would turn their nose up at' 

I agree with these company owners and would do exactly the same thing in their position, we live in a free market and its their job to keep costs low and get the best employees for the position. The problem is that foreign workers are willing to work for less, work harder and live in worse conditions than your average Briton would find acceptable (generalising here but I think its a mostly true pattern)

Its really not the companies fault, and thats the issue, its a cultural problem and trying to compete globally when you are an advanced economy.

[Sophelia]

UKIP MEP Steven Wolfe in hospital.  Rumours are that he had an argument with another UKIP MEP, they had a fight, he got punched in the face...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37572377

(Rumours of smashed window, bleeding on brain...)

[Sophelia]

My twitter feed was in total incredulity for an hour.  Now reports are that Steven Wolfe is conscious and recovering, lots of comments on the totally farcical nature of this incident in Strasbourg.

[Maltaran]

14 minutes ago, Sophelia said:

My twitter feed was in total incredulity for an hour.  Now reports are that Steven Wolfe is conscious and recovering, lots of comments on the totally farcical nature of this incident in Strasbourg.

Apparently the guy who punched him is called Mike Hookem, that's some quality nominative determinism. He's also allegedly on the run from the French police.

[SeanF]

Mike Hookem went on the run, and was captured by a police officer called Michelle Catchem.

[Essan]

3 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I think its more 'Company X pays its employees £X amount which most British nationals would turn their nose up at' 

I agree with these company owners and would do exactly the same thing in their position, we live in a free market and its their job to keep costs low and get the best employees for the position. The problem is that foreign workers are willing to work for less, work harder and live in worse conditions than your average Briton would find acceptable (generalising here but I think its a mostly true pattern)

Its really not the companies fault, and thats the issue, its a cultural problem and trying to compete globally when you are an advanced economy.

There is also the issue that in a great many cases, these companies employing foreign workers are involved in food production.

How many of those objecting to foreign worker "taking our jobs" would be quite happy if their potatoes, sprouts and frozen turkey all cost twice as much this Christmas?

We can have less foreign, low-paid, workers, or we can have cheap produce.   We can't have both.

 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

5 minutes ago, Essan said:

There is also the issue that in a great many cases, these companies employing foreign workers are involved in food production.

How many of those objecting to foreign worker "taking our jobs" would be quite happy if their potatoes, sprouts and frozen turkey all cost twice as much this Christmas?

We can have less foreign, low-paid, workers, or we can have cheap produce.   We can't have both.

 

It would also be a lot cheaper if we went back to slavery. Or gave the job to robots (will probably happen)

[SeanF]

10 minutes ago, Essan said:

There is also the issue that in a great many cases, these companies employing foreign workers are involved in food production.

How many of those objecting to foreign worker "taking our jobs" would be quite happy if their potatoes, sprouts and frozen turkey all cost twice as much this Christmas?

We can have less foreign, low-paid, workers, or we can have cheap produce.   We can't have both.

 

My guess would be that a business which can only afford to pay wages that are attractive to workers from poor countries is unlikely to be viable for much longer.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

9 minutes ago, SeanF said:

My guess would be that a business which can only afford to pay wages that are attractive to workers from poor countries is unlikely to be viable for much longer.

My guess is that they will find new ways to pay workers lower wages in order to stay competitive. Whether thats more zero hours contracts, moving abroad, firing everyone.. I don't know.