Chaircat Meow Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Rumours afoot that the SNP might be about to ditch their support for EU membership in favour of EEA membership. Also speculation they have got the message that indyref2, fought on the basis of Brexit will not work, so pivoting to a more anti-Trump message. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 18 hours ago, Arakan said: I know I know...me again. But please have a read https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/29/merkel-explains-geneva-refugee-convention-to-trump-in-phone-call?CMP=fb_gu THIS is the kind of response to Mr Trump I would expect from every European leader believing in human rights and human decency...the contrast to the words used by Theresa May in her words to Trump couldn't be bigger. Maybe we should impose economic sanctions on the USA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maltaran Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 55 minutes ago, WaffleSausage said: I just hope it gets more people signing it than the last one to Ban Trump from the UK. - I've not checked how many signed that. That was 500k, so the new one is already over twice that - it's now the second biggest ever, after the one for a second EU referendum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The BlackBear Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 It should be pointed out it's not a petition to ban Trump from the UK, the petition organiser says as a head of state he should come. But that he should be denied the pomp of a state visit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 27 minutes ago, Maltaran said: That was 500k, so the new one is already over twice that - it's now the second biggest ever, after the one for a second EU referendum And, as usual in these cases, disproportionately from inner London and the university towns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 1 minute ago, Chaircat Meow said: And, as usual in these cases, disproportionality from inner London and the university towns. Oh no! Well, better ignore it then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 1 minute ago, mormont said: Oh no! Well, better ignore it then. Excellent plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 The irony of this "million person" petition against Trump's limitations on travel from Muslim countries should not be lost on us. If Britain had implemented similar measures for the last generation or so, the petition might today have numbered only 10% of its eventual count. What is the size of Britain's Muslim population again? Seems like the petition still has some legs left in it before it tops out. EDIT I'd imagine a similar petition in Germany would dwarf the results of the one in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 So on the basis of no evidence at all, you've decided it's 90% Muslims signing this petition. Congratulations. That easily exceeds even the 'it's all Londoners and students' line for wilful refusal to accept reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Just now, mormont said: So on the basis of no evidence at all, you've decided it's 90% Muslims signing this petition. Congratulations. That easily exceeds even the 'it's all Londoners and students' line for wilful refusal to accept reality. I would deem it a reasonable assumption that around 1 billion people worldwide might have an automatic reason to sign such a petition, or whatever the current worldwide number of Muslims currently stands at. If they could all be reached and persuaded to go to the effort of signing it, of course. I'm not saying they would all be incensed by it. But on balance they would probably feel aggrieved by it. Whatever the intention of Trump's decree, it kind of goes without saying that it makes travel to the US more onerous for many Muslims. Hence, it would be quite understandable for them to be against it. My point being that such a petition would have almost as a starting point, a number of signatures similar to the number of adult Muslims in said country. You don't have to go to a lot of effort to reach that number at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 4 minutes ago, mormont said: So on the basis of no evidence at all, you've decided it's 90% Muslims signing this petition. Congratulations. That easily exceeds even the 'it's all Londoners and students' line for wilful refusal to accept reality. I said disproportionately not all. You can go online and find out where the signatures are coming from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 1 minute ago, Chaircat Meow said: I said disproportionately not all. You can go online and find out where the signatures are coming from. Apologies for the exaggeration. But the two statement do have this in common: the impulse to dismiss or devalue the petition on the grounds that it's not the right sort of people signing it. And that, frankly, is both stupid and pernicious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 18 hours ago, polishgenius said: For fuck's sake man, no-one was arguing that Theresa May shouldn't have been stronger in condemning Trump's fuckery. Only that her not doing so was not evidence of her signing a pact with him against Europe. Leave the personal stuff. I am not your "man". It is not the first time you attacked me, not the content (see you putting me in the AfD corner). Are you able to think longterm? Trump is pulling the US away from the EU and our so called "common values". May is buttering up to him, Merkel tells him how it is. May wants to reinforce the so called "special relationship" with Trump America. At the same time Trump attacks the EU on all fronts, from economy (35% import tax) to diplomacy (Putin as trustworthy as Merkel). Open your eyes and smell the coffee. Times are changing fast and drastically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 5 minutes ago, mormont said: Apologies for the exaggeration. But the two statement do have this in common: the impulse to dismiss or devalue the petition on the grounds that it's not the right sort of people signing it. And that, frankly, is both stupid and pernicious. Students and inner Londoners have every right to their opinion. I never said we didn't. I am only giving context to the latest petitions we have had. The two Trump bans and the second referendum petition are all disproportionately signed by residents of university towns and inner Londoners. So, in other words, it is something like the hardcore of the 48% complaining each time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arakan Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 2 hours ago, SeanF said: Maybe we should impose economic sanctions on the USA? No reason. I am all for free global trade. But maybe you are not aware that it's not the EU which wants to start a trade war but Trump. I leave it to the US to impose hypocritical economic sanctions (see Cuba, Iran, Russia). The EU so far only followed the US lead (even if we thought that sanctions are stupid and counterproductive). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Quote Maybe we should impose economic sanctions on the USA? Excellent plan. If the United States refuses to live up to the Paris Agreement, there have already been suggestions that a 40% carbon tax should be imposed on all exports from the United States. It's highly unlikely to happen right now, but if the US starts slamming tariffs on imports from other countries, it getting them in return should be no surprise. Quote I would deem it a reasonable assumption that around 1 billion people worldwide might have an automatic reason to sign such a petition, or whatever the current worldwide number of Muslims currently stands at. You require a British address to sign the petition, but it can certainly be gamed by those determined enough. It has been suggested that the petition process has a more vigorous checking methodology, but that would require the UK government to hire a firm with some competence in IT matters, which it has been reluctant to do in the past. Until such time this is the system the British government has put in place and the rules which it has agreed to abide by. Quote The irony of this "million person" petition against Trump's limitations on travel from Muslim countries should not be lost on us. If Britain had implemented similar measures for the last generation or so, the petition might today have numbered only 10% of its eventual count. What is the size of Britain's Muslim population again? Seems like the petition still has some legs left in it before it tops out. There are a bit under 3 million Muslims (less than 4.5% of the population) in the UK. Suggesting that "only Muslims" are signing the petition is mildly ridiculous without supporting evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Denvek Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Her Majesty is 90 years old. If while the President is here, she becomes ill as she was at Christmas, and has to let her son and heir take over her duties for a time, I'm sure that would just be an unfortunate coincidence that nothing could be read into. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 12 minutes ago, Werthead said: Excellent plan. If the United States refuses to live up to the Paris Agreement, there have already been suggestions that a 40% carbon tax should be imposed on all exports from the United States. It's highly unlikely to happen right now, but if the US starts slamming tariffs on imports from other countries, it getting them in return should be no surprise. You require a British address to sign the petition, but it can certainly be gamed by those determined enough. It has been suggested that the petition process has a more vigorous checking methodology, but that would require the UK government to hire a firm with some competence in IT matters, which it has been reluctant to do in the past. Until such time this is the system the British government has put in place and the rules which it has agreed to abide by. There are a bit under 3 million Muslims (less than 4.5% of the population) in the UK. Suggesting that "only Muslims" are signing the petition is mildly ridiculous without supporting evidence. That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that you should be able to reach 1 million signatures very easily with just the Muslim population of Britain signing it. You'd have to exceed that number by some margin before it really becomes something unexpected. So I'd expect 5 million signatures, quite frankly, if even 10% of non-Muslims in the UK feel strongly enough about the issue to sign a petition. And generally, one would expect maybe 20% of the UK voting public to be on the vocally liberal side of this issue in any case. So even 5 million would be kind of a minimum base to even take this thing as anything more than a protest from the usual quarters. I lived in the UK during the Iraq War, and recall vividly the anti-War marchers in their tens of thousands filling up the streets of London. Hundreds of thousands even, if I recall correctly. George Galloway, Claire Short (was Ken Livingstone one of them, can't recall anymore) and their ilk, in addition to pretty much the majority of the Muslim population of the UK. That would have hit 10 million supporters, probably if not more. So to even just get all of those guys out again in support of this petition, would not necessarily be unexpected. So 1 million really is quite a small number, as it stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 3 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said: Students and inner Londoners have every right to their opinion. I never said we didn't. I am only giving context to the latest petitions we have had. The two Trump bans and the second referendum petition are all disproportionately signed by residents of university towns and inner Londoners. So, in other words, it is something like the hardcore of the 48% complaining each time. Case in point. 1.3m people sign a petition and people have to find a reason why it doesn't count. They're Muslims. They're students. They're serial petition signers. They were already angry at Trump. It's the exact same story with the demonstrations at US airports, the same list of excuses. The irony is that the people making these comments are the first to lecture the left in both countries about dismissing the views of what they've recently decided are the 'right' sort of people, ie working class white men. Some voices count, it seems, and some don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Northman Reborn Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 1 minute ago, mormont said: Case in point. 1.3m people sign a petition and people have to find a reason why it doesn't count. They're Muslims. They're students. They're serial petition signers. They were already angry at Trump. It's the exact same story with the demonstrations at US airports, the same list of excuses. The irony is that the people making these comments are the first to lecture the left in both countries about dismissing the views of what they've recently decided are the 'right' sort of people, ie working class white men. Some voices count, it seems, and some don't. Or maybe it is just two groups with competing interests, each fighting an ideological battle with the other in a zero sum game. Nothing more sinister than that. And any arguments that help win the fight of the day get utilized, no matter that it would work equally well under different circumstances for the other side's cause. In the end we are not one happy human family. And no one has the moral high ground, other than the naïve idealists, who think we can all just get along for the better of all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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