In the Shadow of the Status Quo--Fantasy literature and conservativism

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I, as an author, hold progressive views. I believe in equality for all and love and kittens.

None of which are likely to show up in a Great Old One ruled Wasteland.

Placing the heroes and heroines in the middle of a hell-hole is just so much more interesting for the reader, than placing them in a nice, prosperous, tolerant society (and if they are placed in the latter, it will be in the middle of some terrible sub-culture).

[polishgenius]

59 minutes ago, maarsen said:

I read and enjoyed the sample chapter. I somewhat agree with your premise but there is a fantasy series out there with a gay protagonist that was not written by Richard Morgan. Sam Delaney wrote his Neveryon series during the 80's.

 

 

There was even one written by Trudi Canavan ffs (well, it was a co-protagonist iirc). I doubt it's quite on the level of Delaney's work though...

I've often considered taking a plunge on Delaney but never been sure where to start (not helped by his books being pretty hard to get hold of here).
Mind, I'm a bit concerned by his position on Nambla and child sexuality which has also held me back from taking the plunge (short version: he's not a child sex advocate or anything but he had some experiences when he was young himself that he doesn't see as abuse that most people probably would and is rather more liberal on the idea than most people would be. The whole conversation is worth reading though, I can't possibly put across his views here).

50 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Placing the heroes and heroines in the middle of a hell-hole is just so much more interesting for the reader, than placing them in a nice, prosperous, tolerant society (and if they are placed in the latter, it will be in the middle of some terrible sub-culture).

 

Even Ian M Banks, when writing about the explicitly utopic Culture, set all his stories on the edges of it in interactions with other civilisations and in the places where they had to make tough decisions.

That said, putting a work in a conservatively-slanted setting doesn't necessarily mean the work itself is conservative.

[C.T. Phipps]

I believe Cersei is pretty much the perfect example of an interesting context of using a conservative setting without writing it. Cersei is an archetype of conservative fiction being the woman who acts outside the boundaries of her socially assigned role and is the Evil QueenTM but due to the writing has become a kind of odd feminist icon.

Indeed, one far more popular than the just and good (by Westerosi standards) Catelyn.

[David Selig]

3 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I believe Cersei is pretty much the perfect example of an interesting context of using a conservative setting without writing it. Cersei is an archetype of conservative fiction being the woman who acts outside the boundaries of her socially assigned role and is the Evil QueenTM but due to the writing has become a kind of odd feminist icon.

She has?

[C.T. Phipps]

9 minutes ago, David Selig said:

She has?

http://www.themarysue.com/cersei-lannister-feminist-character/

http://www.bustle.com/articles/101697-7-reasons-game-of-thrones-cersei-lannister-is-a-feminist-hero-despite-her-many-many-flaws

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2016/06/25/why-women-rule-westeros-6-reasons-game-of-thrones-is-a-triumph-f/

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/30/the-abused-wives-of-westeros-a-song-of-feminism-in-game-of-thrones.html

http://www.bustle.com/articles/101697-7-reasons-game-of-thrones-cersei-lannister-is-a-feminist-hero-despite-her-many-many-flaws

And this is just with one causal google search.

People have writen their Masters on it.

[TrackerNeil]

1 hour ago, maarsen said:

I read and enjoyed the sample chapter. I somewhat agree with your premise but there is a fantasy series out there with a gay protagonist that was not written by Richard Morgan. Sam Delaney wrote his Neveryon series during the 80's. It is very rarely mentioned here in the forums, probably because most of the boarders here were not born then. No disrespect to GRRM or Tolkein, but Delaney completely blows away anyone else. What you are looking for has been written.

I'm glad you brought this up. As we brought up at the end of the paper, there are authors who take a more progressive approach to fantasy, and I am glad to learn about each and every one. Honestly, I am still baffled that we don't see more liberalism in the genre; after all, science fiction often comments on issues of the day, but you don't see that much in fantasy.

Lynn Flewelling wrote The Nightrunner Series, and for the 90s her books were remarkably progressive in terms of sexual minorities. As you say, the work is out there, but sometimes it's hard to find, overshadowed by more conservative works.

[polishgenius]

1 hour ago, C.T. Phipps said:

I believe Cersei is pretty much the perfect example of an interesting context of using a conservative setting without writing it. Cersei is an archetype of conservative fiction being the woman who acts outside the boundaries of her socially assigned role and is the Evil QueenTM but due to the writing has become a kind of odd feminist icon.

Indeed, one far more popular than the just and good (by Westerosi standards) Catelyn.

 

 

I can see why people see her that way but realistically, although she's badass in a twisted way, calling her a feminist icon is like calling Littlefinger a social reformer. She's a Cerceist, not a feminist.

[Darth Richard II]

Mercedes Lackey had a trilogy with a gay main character. Her second I think. I wanna say late 80s but it could face been early 90s. Soneone already mentioned Canavi plus Robin Hobb and Kate Eliott have had gay/bi characters. 

With regards to Cersi I think a lot of the feminist stuff is based on the show and not the books. Also give Heady a damn Emmy already.

[C.T. Phipps]

2 hours ago, polishgenius said:

I can see why people see her that way but realistically, although she's badass in a twisted way, calling her a feminist icon is like calling Littlefinger a social reformer. She's a Cerceist, not a feminist.

It's the nature of the beast. People would rather be insane, hateful, and twisted but powerful than subservient.

I'd rather be Darth Vader than Obi-Wan.

[C.T. Phipps]

2 hours ago, TrackerNeil said:

I'm glad you brought this up. As we brought up at the end of the paper, there are authors who take a more progressive approach to fantasy, and I am glad to learn about each and every one. Honestly, I am still baffled that we don't see more liberalism in the genre; after all, science fiction often comments on issues of the day, but you don't see that much in fantasy.

Lynn Flewelling wrote The Nightrunner Series, and for the 90s her books were remarkably progressive in terms of sexual minorities. As you say, the work is out there, but sometimes it's hard to find, overshadowed by more conservative works.

I honestly blame the publishing houses to a large extent and their desire to market fantasy to adolescents than adults. Ed Greenwood and the Forgotten Realms gets a lot of flack from readers for the fact it was the definition of Happy Meal Fantasy in the 80s and 90s. However, if you talk to Ed Greenwood in person or on his various message boards, you'll hear about his extensive frustration in trying to write in the coloring book lines which TSR/WOTC and later Hasbro forced him to do so.

Even as early as the 80s and late 70s, he envisioned the Forgotten Realms as a place of sexual freedom with gay, straight, and bisexual main characters plus a darker morally ambiguous world in terms of its politics as well as interrelations. TSR, however, wanted a world as close to a Tolkien pastiche as humanly possible and didn't even allow him to use the word "brothel" in his writing.

[Zorral]

There are a lot of different forms of fantasy.

However, when it comes to the classic epic quest High Fantasy that we invoke when invoking Tolkien, there is always loss.  Someone must sacrifice for the quest to be accomplished.  Frodo's sacrifice is that he can't go home again.  Living in the Shire isn't for him.  He lost too much humanity / hobbithood while the Ring Bearer.  In Pullman's His Dark Materials, Lyra and Will, though loving each other, cannot be together. You all likely will think of many others.  Success means loss and sacrifice.

It's always been interesting to me that in later forms of Fantasy, written by later generations, such as in Jacqueline Carey's Kushiel series, Phèdre nó Delaunay herself doesn't sacrifice much, if anything, at the end.  She heals others. Others give up, sacrifice, as in taking the place of the ruler of the channel and so on. But her central figures are so special as to be godlike.

For many eras of literature as entertainment the number one rule we all know is that the central figure, the Hero, etc. do not die, they end up happily or at least still the toughest mfers around.  Which is why The Wire killing off central characters was such a shock -- and even Buffy, though she commits the ultimate sacrifice to save the world, dies -- she has to come back.  Returning to the world is Buffy's actual sacrifice . . . .

But ultimately that High Fantasy is feudal and medieval is because its primary model is the literary and legendary cycles of King Arthur, which itself was firmly located in that world via the concerted propaganda promoted by Edward I to keep promote the legitimacy of his dynasty's rule of Wales.  I.e. England stole King Arthur for political reasons.  Here's one of many places that describes the purpose and the process.

 

 

[C.T. Phipps]

2 minutes ago, Zorral said:

In Pullman's His Dark Materials, Lyra and Will, though loving each other, cannot be together.

Am I the only one who thought that was a complete asspull?

Fallout 3 and Mass Effect 3 were two of the biggest interactive fiction in decades and both tried to have the hero die for EPICNESS only to have the audience strongly react in a negative manner. Why? Because it came from nowhere.

[Darth Richard II]

Oh, I've gone on at length about how much I despise the second and third book of HDM. So I agree with you there. Good call on Nightrunner, I forgot about those.

TSR in the 80s abd 90s is a whole separate thread I think. As someone who sat down and read every FR novel up to eh 2001 ish, you can actually watch certain authors struggle against what they are and are not  allowed to do and there are almost exact dates in the publishing history where you can see restrictions becoming relaxed/more enforced. The Drizzt books alone have a weird roller coaster in tone.

[Zorral]

12 minutes ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Am I the only one who thought that was a complete asspull?

Fallout 3 and Mass Effect 3 were two of the biggest interactive fiction in decades and both tried to have the hero die for EPICNESS only to have the audience strongly react in a negative manner. Why? Because it came from nowhere.

Do not know to what you are referring -- the work itself as a whole or that the two primaries cannot be together at the end.

As far as this reader is concerned that ending redeemed all the parts of the books that didn't work so well for me -- though I do think His Dark Materials is an important contribution to the literature of High Fantasy.

 

[Darth Richard II]

Ok so I'll spoiler tag this in case any of you want to read Greenwood's Spellfire trilogy...for some reason...(don't it sucks)

Spoiler

That trilogy has got to be the biggest case of Greenwood going fuck you to his editors. The first two books are horrible elminster infused fluff, and then in the third book it turns into a grimdark fest where the main character of the first two pretty much explodes and dies and then the main influence wanders the earth being depressed for the rest of his life. It was fucked up. I remember reading the ending to that third book and laughing for like an hour it was suck a middle finger to the early TSR editing days.

 

[The Marquis de Leech]

My major hatred for His Dark Materials revolves around a wasted premise. Pullman takes armoured polar bears and a war against God, and makes it boring.

Thinking of other queer fantasy:

• Jerry Cornelius (Michael Moorcock) is pansexual - in books written in the 1960s and 1970s. Might possibly be classed as science-fiction though.
• Pre-Tolkien, you have the likes of The Picture of Dorian Gray (Oscar Wilde), with Basil clearly homosexual, and Dorian implicitly engaging in homosexual activities. Also, Carmilla (Joseph Sheridan Le Fanu) has lesbian vampires, pre-Dracula.
• There are numerous gay characters in Neil Gaiman's Sandman comics.
• Kushiel's Legacy (Jacqueline Carey) has a bisexual masochistic protagonist in the first trilogy, admittedly in a society where bisexuality is the norm.
• The Doctrine of Labyrinths (Sarah Monette) has a gay main character.  

[Darth Richard II]

My hated for HDM comes from the way he turned Lyra into the typical girl who needs to be rescued by a MAN in book 2. I threw that book against the wall.

[C.T. Phipps]

15 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Ok so I'll spoiler tag this in case any of you want to read Greenwood's Spellfire trilogy...for some reason...(don't it sucks)

  Hide contents

That trilogy has got to be the biggest case of Greenwood going fuck you to his editors. The first two books are horrible elminster infused fluff, and then in the third book it turns into a grimdark fest where the main character of the first two pretty much explodes and dies and then the main influence wanders the earth being depressed for the rest of his life. It was fucked up. I remember reading the ending to that third book and laughing for like an hour it was suck a middle finger to the early TSR editing days.

 

Ed said, basically, the first two books of Spellfire Trilogy was his millstone because they made him remove like 30% of each book and then rewrite 60% of what remained to make his beloved home campaign villains into comical buffoons. Hence why he rage-quit the trilogy for a decade. I don't think his "revenge" was particularly good as a story, though.

[Darth Richard II]

Oh I don't think any of the books were good, but something about the way that one ends I just find hilarious.

[C.T. Phipps]

11 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said:

Oh I don't think any of the books were good, but something about the way that one ends I just find hilarious.

But you're right. It was absolutely 100% an FU to the censorship of the time.

So was him creating the word "Fest Hall."