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Revisiting the HOTUD Prophecies


El Dude

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Hello all,

One of the main reasons I love ASOIAF is that GRRM tells you everything that is going to happen, but he does it in such a cryptic fashion that you often don't realize it until said events happen. For example; GRRM told us about the Red Wedding several times in AGOT. Specifically, Jon's last image of Rob--that Jon/GRRM returns to several times--is Rob smiling sadly, with snow melting in his hair. This image can also be interpreted as the sorrowful breaking of a crown of ice, worn by the king of winter; describing exactly what will take place.

This writing styles leaves readers with many great puzzles to ponder upon, and undoubtedly makes close readers like us examine every sentence, every word to try to find secondary meaning in the hopes of finding just a glimmer of an image that peers into the future. Some of our coolest hypotheses have been true (R+L=J!)... and some have been complete crap. But what is pretty rare and fascinating to see are a huge amount of hints packed into such a short space as was done in Dany's House of the Undying (HOTUD) Chapter in ACOK. I know that it has been examined thoroughly, but I want to take another look with fresh eyes (and some *new* info) and to summarize what we do know and what we don't to try and see where the books will take us.

While there are several interesting scenes that occur before Dany meets the Undying, let me skip them and get to the meat of the chapter. Dany tells the Undying that she has come for wisdom and counsel; she has come for the gift of truth. She asks about the visions she saw on her way to them; they reply "...the shape of shadows... marrows not yet made..." clear enough; past and possible future, but I've never understood the very next part: "...drink from the cup of ice...drink from the cup of fire..." The line gives me shivers, but I still don't quite know what this means.

The Undying next call her "...mother of dragons... child of three," again the first part makes sense, but child of three doesn't. I originally thought it meant she was one of three children, but it really infers that three things came together to give birth to her, I suppose this could be Aegon I and his sisters. The undying continue: "...three heads has the dragon.../ ...mother of dragons... child of storm..." and then we get into the vaguest parts, the triplet of triplets:

"...three fires must you light... one for life and one for death and one to love..."

"...three mounts must you ride... one to bed and one to dread and one to love..."

"...three treasons you will know... once for blood and once for gold and once for love..."

One thing I find strange is the wording of the first two, specifically the "must you." Not only is it awkward (it sounds like GRRM wrote "you must" but didn't like it because it was too direct and switched the order), but it implies that in order to achieve *her goal* then she must do these things. I find this odd because it implies that she has a choice in the first two matters, but not in the third. Betrayal is inevitable. It seems that her fate is not sealed, and it may go one of several ways, which is very curious. (As for the triplets, I am analyzing under the assumption that their meaning will/should become clear once it occurs.)

Of the three fires; the first for life was Drogo's funeral pyre that hatched her dragons giving them life. I don't see any controversy there. But for the remaining two, I don't think they've happened yet. The burning of Astapor was not for death; death did occur, but the purpose was for her army and the freedom of the slaves/her children. Death was the byproduct not her straight up goal.

Of the three mounts; Drogo was clearly the first. She was essentially sold as a sex toy in exchange for the Dothraki army. Some say the one to dread and the one to love are Hizdar no Loraq and Daario. I don't buy this. The ordering is off, and Dany seems pretty meh about them both. Her chapters and actions have not shown true and deep dread or love, at least as of yet. And in the show Hizdar is killed almost nonchalantly. While Hizdar may become the mount to dread, Daario is the mount she chose, not the mount she "must" for love. Is it possible that Drogon is the mount that she will dread? I don't believe so but time will tell.

Of the three treasons; the first was when Mirri Maz Duur murdered her child in her womb, Rhaego the stallion who mounts the world, and turned Drogo into a turnip (vegetable). I don't believe the next two, once for gold and once for love, have not happened yet. Some say that Jorah Mormont's betrayal was the second or if not then Brown Ben Plumm's was the second. I find both of these arguments rather weak as up to now their betrayals have not manifested in great loss for Dany in the way that the first did. Furthermore, Plumm and Mormont will both be returning to team Dany soon so neither of these sticks in my mind. Also GRRM likes to trick us and give us false flags to try to get us confused and committed to the wrong ideas just to tear the rug right out from under us once we're confident that we know what’s going on. So BEWARE!

Back to the HOTUD; Dany is confused what these things mean (unsurprisingly) and says: "Help me. Show me." To which the Undying mock her and then give her 16 visions (my paraphrasing):

1) Viserys screaming as he died from the molten gold. -- Very clear

2) A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stands beneath the banner of a fiery "stallion," a burning city behind him. -- Likely who her son would have become. See the mix of Targ and Dothraki characteristics and symbolism.

3) Rubies falling like blood from a dying prince as he sank to his knees in water and said a woman's name. -- Pretty clearly Rhaegar her older brother dying on the Trident. But who's name did he whisper? My money is on Lyanna.

The Undying say "...mother of dragons, daughter of death..." -- Pretty clearly refering to her dead family, her two brothers and son.

4) A blue eyed King raises a burning sword and casts no shadow. -- This is very clearly Stannis Baratheon.

5) A cloth dragon waved on poles in front of a crowd. -- This is much less clear and has been used as evidence for the (f)Aegon theory; that he's a Blackfye pretender of the female lineage and son of Illyrio. Let's leave it at that for now.

6) A great stone beast taking flight from a stone tower breathing shadow fire. -- While there are many hints as to what or who this may be we have little to no certainty. (While in Summer, Bran sees a similar figure come out of Winterfell in a wolf dream.) The fire implies dragon, but the shadow fire and stone beast confound the point. Needless to say we have a few poor clues and gut feelings, but we have no certainty. (I believe it's a representation of Euron or perhaps a transformation. The shadowy fire does match the description of Euron’s shadow god from the new Aeron chapter.)

The Undying say: "...mother of dragons, slayer of lies..." -- What does this mean? The best explanation I've heard (and subscribe to) is that these images refer to false prophets; they are/will wrongly claim to AA/LH/SWMTW/whoever returned to this world, but their existence and their claims will be lies. And then Dany will slay them. I can't wait to see this one play out.

7) Her silver horse walking to a stream in the dark under the stars. -- Pretty clear Dothraki imagery.

8) A corpse at the helm of a ship, eyes alight, smiling sadly. -- After Dance, I believe this is Victarian Greyjoy. He's a captain, dying slowly, infused with the lord of light, and smiling sadly could be a play-on-words for Greyjoy. It could also be Euron, but there's less evidence for this. It could also be someone else, we haven't seen great iron clad evidence for this person.

9) A blue flower grew in a wall of ice filling the world with sweetness. -- Now that we have confirmation that R+L=J. It's pretty clear that this is Jon. Blue roses symbolize Lyanna Stark and her son Jon is on the wall. The sweetness is not clear as of yet; he's a pretty brutal leader who does have his soft sides.

The Undying say: "...mother of dragons, bride of fire..." -- The Undying are showing Dany her husbands from the afore mentioned "mounts." The mount to bed is Khal Drogo. The mount to dread is a Greyjoy, likely Victarion. And the mount to love will be Jon Snow. (This is why I love ASOIAF; the core story starts with the foolish and forbidden love between Rheagar and Lyanna and will end with another (troubled?) love story between Jon and Dany; culminating in an ending that will be “bitter-sweet.” I love these books.)

The next set of images occurred faster and did not come with commentary.

10) Shadows dancing in a tent. -- Perhaps from the Mirri Maz Duur resurection scene, but perhaps not. Unclear

11) A little barefoot girl running towards a large house with a red door. -- Perhaps from Dany's childhood. Some suggest that it's Arya running away from Westeros to Braavos, but I don't buy it. (Tangent: the problem here is that the place from Dany's childhood memories that she thinks is Braavos, can't be Braavos. The key part is the lemon tree. They only grow in very warm sunny climates such as Dorne. So that place can't be Braavos, a city famous for its fog and chill. There is a problem with Dany's early memories, some even say that Dany isn't Dany but (f)Dany similar to (f)Aegon. I'm not yet willing to go that far, but there are some very valid unexplained points.) Very Unclear.

12) Mirri Maz Duur shreiking in the flames as a dragon bursts from her brow. -- This seems to have happened, but there may be another meaning. Mostly clear.

13) Behind a silver horse the body of a dead man bounced and dragged. -- At face value this seems to have happened with the hired wine assassin, but earlier Dany referred to her silver horse as "her silver" while this one is described as "a silver horse." I may be looking too much into the wording but this seems to imply a different horse and scene, but I'm not convinced too much one way or the other. Unclear.

14) A white lion ran through the grass taller than a man. -- The white lion at face value implies Jamie Lannister, but the tall grass is only in the Dothraki sea far from Westeros. It could imply Tyrion, or the rare white lion Drogo killed for her. What this scene implies about the rest of the books is questionable. Very unclear.

15) A line of crones emerges naked from the lake at the Mother of Mountains and brow to her. -- At the end of Dance, Dany reunites with the Dothraki who in the show take Dany back to Veas Dothrak. She will probably do something as the show depicts and win the alliance of the Dosh khaleen and a unified Dothraki people.

16) Dany races by lines of slaves who chant: "Mother!" -- This did happen in ASOS. At face value it appears to be true/fulfilled. Quite clear.

These last seven scenes may have hints for the future. Keep your eyes out for reoccurring imagery! That’s it for now. If I am missing anything or you have your own opinions (complete with evidence) let me know!

 

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Interesting but have you considered that the "mount to dread" is Euron?  Also I'm not sure that any of the betrayals have happened yet.  Dany is convinced that the first one is Mirri Maz Duur but it's Jorah carrying Dany into the tent, which Mirri had specifically warned them not to enter, that upsets her entire ritual.  Mirri did not betray Dany, rather Jorah made a mistake.  To me betrayal requires intent which we aren't certain of in Mirri's case. 

 

As for "drink from the cup of ice, drink from the cup of fire"  I think this refers to the Union that must take place for man to overcome the others.  Ice, represented I think by Jon, from the cold North, now entering into winter, and fire, Dany, reborn from Dragonfire.  It will be their alliance that save Westeros and Man from the Others and the Night King.

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16 hours ago, El Dude said:

A blue flower grew in a wall of ice filling the world with sweetness.

I don't know if it refers to jon. It could be somethin from the past: Beal or Lyanna? sweetness for love? Or it could be something from the future: a spring sign? in a dream of spring? 

 

16 hours ago, El Dude said:

A little barefoot girl running towards a large house with a red door. -- Perhaps from Dany's childhood. Some suggest that it's Arya running away from Westeros to Braavos, but I don't buy it.

I agree

 

16 hours ago, El Dude said:

A white lion ran through the grass taller than a man.

I think he is Jaime too. I'm very curious about this one.

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I honestly believe there is a lot of misunderstand about these visions in the fandom.

take the slayer of lies bit, it doesn't mean she kills these people just that she proves they are lies. BTW I also think two of these lies will be the same event. my view is the stone beast with the shadow smoke is a fake stone dragon Mel makes for stannis so two of the lies get found out at the same time.

I also hope the same for the "loves" part two as I really hate the idea that Jon and Dany at any point feel romantic "love" for each other. I for one  like love interests to be fleshed out but there is no way for it to be anything but rushed. there are only two books left Dany has to "marry" two people (the preview chapters majorly point to the other being Euron) while two major wars going on.

on top of that the book really goes out of its way to show how bad inbreeding is just to turn around and have and Aunt an nephew get married is just wrong.  so I really hope there is more too it then some love at first sight BS that doesn't work for this story.

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6 hours ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

As for "drink from the cup of ice, drink from the cup of fire"  I think this refers to the Union that must take place for man to overcome the others.  Ice, represented I think by Jon, from the cold North, now entering into winter, and fire, Dany, reborn from Dragonfire.  It will be their alliance that save Westeros and Man from the Others and the Night King.

That refers to Jon and only Jon! He is fire(Rheagar) and ice(Lyanna) this has nothing to do with Dany.

The Nights King doesn't exist in the books he's long dead and won't retern!

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The most important point to remember about these visions are that some will come to pass, but others will not.  The past is written and the ink is already dry.  But the future is not yet setThe future is yet to be writtenThe choices that Dany makes will determine which of these visions will come to pass and which will not.  Choices that she make today affect future choices and their outcome.  Remember also that the Undying do not hold Dany's best interest.  They were, after all, trying to trap her.  They never expected her to leave.  Lastly, if the Undying were really that good at telling the future, they would have had a sign outside their doors that said "Dragons Not Allowed."  I.e. they couldn't even predict their own death!

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"Cup" of ice could mean the concoction that the Children fed to Bran.  "Cup" of fire in this case would be the one she drank before she entered the House of the Undying.  Cup stands for the "cup of knowledge" in both cases.

"Child of Three" means this number is very significant to Dany.  3 dragons.  3 bloodriders.  3 cities.  3 husbands.  3 handmaidens.  3 kingsguard may have been sacrificed to bring her into the world. 

Slayer of Lies" means Dany will prove she is Azor Ahai, not Stannis.  Aegon is a Blackfyre, not the son of Rhaegar.  Melisandre "took flight" on Dragonstone when she made herself Stannis' priestess and adviser.  Dany will prove Mel is not who she appears to be. 

The visions are given in reverse chronological order.  The red wedding happened before the naked woman gets savaged by the four rat men.   Robb and Balon can't be one of the "rats".  So this event, the naked woman being taken by the four rat men, will happen in the future.  Perhaps Dany can prevent this.  If she had taken Illyrio's offer, she may have been able to prevent the Red Wedding, though compared against the more important goal of ending slavery, it is not significant to warrant her attention.

I agree with Cortana.  I think we should take these prophecies with skepticism.  If the Undying were so good, why were they unable to see their deaths coming from Drogon? 

 

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The sweetness sounds like it references Rhaegar as his father. The blue flower is obviously Lyanna, growing in the wall is symbolism that Jon Snow grew from inside her womb and very much a resemblance of her, and I feel like GRRM wants to give us a subtle clue of R+L=J. We read often that Rhaegar was loved by all, a man who loved singing and being kind to the small folk...he sounded like everything Aerys wanted from his subjects. A man who emanated kindness and sweetness, who filled the world with it wherever he went. 

9) A blue flower grew in a wall of ice filling the world with sweetness. -- Now that we have confirmation that R+L=J. It's pretty clear that this is Jon. Blue roses symbolize Lyanna Stark and her son Jon is on the wall. The sweetness is not clear as of yet; he's a pretty brutal leader who does have his soft sides.

 

 

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6 hours ago, fire&blood said:

The sweetness sounds like it references Rhaegar as his father. The blue flower is obviously Lyanna, growing in the wall is symbolism that Jon Snow grew from inside her womb and very much a resemblance of her, and I feel like GRRM wants to give us a subtle clue of R+L=J. We read often that Rhaegar was loved by all, a man who loved singing and being kind to the small folk...he sounded like everything Aerys wanted from his subjects. A man who emanated kindness and sweetness, who filled the world with it wherever he went. 

 

Except Rhaegar betrayed his wife and ran off with a woman already engaged.  Rhaegar seemed like a sweet guy, but he behaved irresponsibly and put his desires ahead of his duties to his kingdom and his family.  Maybe he even kidnapped Lyanna.  I don't believe it but it is still possible.  But regardless of how it happened, Rhaegar chose to fulfill his love rather than fulfill his duty to the realm.  He was unfit to rule.

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10 hours ago, I'm Cortana said:

The most important point to remember about these visions are that some will come to pass, but others will not.  The past is written and the ink is already dry.  But the future is not yet setThe future is yet to be writtenThe choices that Dany makes will determine which of these visions will come to pass and which will not.  Choices that she make today affect future choices and their outcome.  Remember also that the Undying do not hold Dany's best interest.  They were, after all, trying to trap her.  They never expected her to leave.  Lastly, if the Undying were really that good at telling the future, they would have had a sign outside their doors that said "Dragons Not Allowed."  I.e. they couldn't even predict their own death!

:agree:

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El Dude. I am sorry, but I didn't read all you have written. I think you forgot the rules about the spoiler from the show. I have seen 2 major show spoilers by reading 1/3 of your text. Fix that because it's annoying. I thought this section is all about the books, not a section were you can make parallels between the show and the books.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 9/4/2016 at 5:10 PM, Cridefea said:

I don't know if it refers to jon. It could be somethin from the past: Beal or Lyanna? sweetness for love? Or it could be something from the future: a spring sign? in a dream of spring? 

 

I agree

 

I think he is Jaime too. I'm very curious about this one.

#14 is not Jamie. It's the lion Drogo killed in GoT. 

GoT Dany VI:

Khal Drogo did not want to hear it. "We will speak no more of wooden horses and iron chairs." He dropped the cloth and began to dress. "This day I will go to the grass and hunt, woman wife," he announced as he shrugged into a painted vest and buckled on a wide belt with heavy medallions of silver, gold, and bronze.

"Yes, my sun-and-stars," Dany said. Drogo would take his bloodriders and ride in search of hrakkar, the great white lion of the plains. If they returned triumphant, her lord husband's joy would be fierce, and he might be willing to hear her out.

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2 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

#14 is not Jamie. It's the lion Drogo killed in GoT. 

GoT Dany VI:

Khal Drogo did not want to hear it. "We will speak no more of wooden horses and iron chairs." He dropped the cloth and began to dress. "This day I will go to the grass and hunt, woman wife," he announced as he shrugged into a painted vest and buckled on a wide belt with heavy medallions of silver, gold, and bronze.

"Yes, my sun-and-stars," Dany said. Drogo would take his bloodriders and ride in search of hrakkar, the great white lion of the plains. If they returned triumphant, her lord husband's joy would be fierce, and he might be willing to hear her out.

And who now wears that white lion pelt? 

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I was intrigued by the white lion imagery on a re-read, yesterday. On face value it could just be the hrakkar Drogo hunted in the Dothraki Sea, but we are yet to find our if it symbolises Jaime. Maybe the "grass as tall as man" could mean he is hiding among men, perhaps on a mission from UnCat? Not very solid as a theory though.

Quote

"Three?" She did not understand.

. . . three heads has the dragon . . . the ghost chorus yammered inside her skull with never a lip moving, never a breath stirring the still blue air. . . . mother of dragons . . . child of storm . . . The whispers became a swirling song. . . . three fires must you light . . . one for life and one for death and one to love . . . Her own heart was beating in unison to the one that floated before her, blue and corrupt . . . three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . . The voices were growing louder, she realized, and it seemed her heart was slowing, and even her breath. . . . three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . . .

 

 

Quote

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . . 

The wording here intrigued me. The first quote says she must light three fires, the first two for life and death, and the third to love. And soon after, she's called bride of fire. There seems to be some fire symbolism for a Daenerys consort, that is absent in Daario and Euron/Victarion. I'm not much of a fan, but post-death Jon (Targaryen) maybe? Sorry to start *that* topic over here, but I think it's a possibility.
Lighting a fire to love could mean that she reveals his parentage and then goes on to become the bride of fire?

Also, interesting note, the mount she rides "to dread" could be Euron, he's pretty fucking dreadful.
Alternatively, Daario could be the treason for gold in a big way, and thus her mount to dread.

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5 hours ago, rhythmicsheep said:

I was intrigued by the white lion imagery on a re-read, yesterday. On face value it could just be the hrakkar Drogo hunted in the Dothraki Sea, but we are yet to find our if it symbolises Jaime. Maybe the "grass as tall as man" could mean he is hiding among men, perhaps on a mission from UnCat? Not very solid as a theory though.

 

The wording here intrigued me. The first quote says she must light three fires, the first two for life and death, and the third to love. And soon after, she's called bride of fire. There seems to be some fire symbolism for a Daenerys consort, that is absent in Daario and Euron/Victarion. I'm not much of a fan, but post-death Jon (Targaryen) maybe? Sorry to start *that* topic over here, but I think it's a possibility.
Lighting a fire to love could mean that she reveals his parentage and then goes on to become the bride of fire?

Also, interesting note, the mount she rides "to dread" could be Euron, he's pretty fucking dreadful.
Alternatively, Daario could be the treason for gold in a big way, and thus her mount to dread.

Dany III in GoT:

Viserys gaped at him, and sat down in the dirt. He kept his silence, but he would not move, and his eyes were full of poison as they rode away. Soon he was lost in the tall grass. When they could not see him anymore, Dany grew afraid. "Will he find his way back?" she asked Ser Jorah as they rode.

Dany VI in GoT:

Khal Drogo did not want to hear it. "We will speak no more of wooden horses and iron chairs." He dropped the cloth and began to dress. "This day I will go to the grass and hunt, woman wife," he announced as he shrugged into a painted vest and buckled on a wide belt with heavy medallions of silver, gold, and bronze.

Sometimes if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck it is a duck (or in this case a lion). 

If you can find some textual evidence that it could be Jamie I will listen, but if GRRM wanted it to be Jamie the lion would be gold and grass would not be mentioned. Grass is clearly a Dothraki Sea association. 

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10 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Missandei? I don't know... Dany didn't have it with her when she flew out on Drogon...

Daenerys doesn't have anything but a slip and a dragon right now, but she just loves to snuggle in that white lion pelt. She's the white lion...

Quote

Faster and faster the visions came, one after the other, until it seemed as if the very air had come alive. Shadows whirled and danced inside a tent, boneless and terrible. A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door. Mirri Maz Duur shrieked in the flames, a dragon bursting from her brow. Behind a silver horse the bloody corpse of a naked man bounced and dragged. A white lion ran through grass taller than a man. Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed.

The last six visions before the final one to which she succumbs represent: 1) Trying to save Drogo upon whom she was nearly totally dependent; 2) her longing for the sheltered days of her early childhood; 3) her dragons hatching; 4) the punishment exacted on the man sent by the usurper to kill her and her unborn son, the action that convinced Drogo to begin preparations for an invasion of the Seven Kingdoms; 5) a prized beast presumably being stalked by Dothraki; and 6) the wise women of the Dothraki paying her homage.

The first two of these six show her dependent on others. The second two show her dragons hatching and her acting the way the blood of dragon would be expected to act. The third two show what appears to be happening at the end of Dance, where Jhaqo finds her in the Dothraki Sea, and, perhaps, what will happen in Winds, when Daenerys, the mother of dragons, and Drogon unite the khalasars to mount the world.

And then she succumbs to one last vision...

Quote

Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. Mother! they cried. Mother, mother! They were reaching for her, touchingher, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them . . .

...before Drogon comes to her rescue... just like what happens in Meereen...

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12 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Daenerys doesn't have anything but a slip and a dragon right now, but she just loves to snuggle in that white lion pelt. She's the white lion...

The last six visions before the final one to which she succumbs represent: 1) Trying to save Drogo upon whom she was nearly totally dependent; 2) her longing for the sheltered days of her early childhood; 3) her dragons hatching; 4) the punishment exacted on the man sent by the usurper to kill her and her unborn son, the action that convinced Drogo to begin preparations for an invasion of the Seven Kingdoms; 5) a prized beast presumably being stalked by Dothraki; and 6) the wise women of the Dothraki paying her homage.

The first two of these six show her dependent on others. The second two show her dragons hatching and her acting the way the blood of dragon would be expected to act. The third two show what appears to be happening at the end of Dance, where Jhaqo finds her in the Dothraki Sea, and, perhaps, what will happen in Winds, when Daenerys, the mother of dragons, and Drogon unite the khalasars to mount the world.

And then she succumbs to one last vision...

...before Drogon comes to her rescue... just like what happens in Meereen...

Great breakdown as usual.

I was thinking you were asking who wears the lion pelt as in actually physically wearing it.

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