El Dude

Revisiting the HOTUD Prophecies

47 posts in this topic

On 05.09.2016 at 3:36 AM, Dex drako said:

I honestly believe there is a lot of misunderstand about these visions in the fandom.

take the slayer of lies bit, it doesn't mean she kills these people just that she proves they are lies. BTW I also think two of these lies will be the same event. my view is the stone beast with the shadow smoke is a fake stone dragon Mel makes for stannis so two of the lies get found out at the same time.
 

5

I agree. Dany proves that her dragons are the ones that are woken out of stone and not the ones on Dragonstone. Hence the "slayer of lies". 

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4 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Sometimes if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck it is a duck (or in this case a lion). 

If you can find some textual evidence that it could be Jamie I will listen, but if GRRM wanted it to be Jamie the lion would be gold and grass would not be mentioned. Grass is clearly a Dothraki Sea association. 

I agree, I never thought of Jaime till I read this thread though, and I was just thinking out loud. I don't think anyone has been symbolised using white other than Val and she doesn't quite fit either. I initially came here looking for any ideas about what the hrakkar symbolises, but yeah, it could just be a damn lion :P

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40 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I agree. Dany proves that her dragons are the ones that are woken out of stone and not the ones on Dragonstone. Hence the "slayer of lies". 

there going to be more to it then that, I believe stannis will have a fake dragon in the DWD 2.0

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18 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

#14 is not Jamie. It's the lion Drogo killed in GoT. 

GoT Dany VI:

Khal Drogo did not want to hear it. "We will speak no more of wooden horses and iron chairs." He dropped the cloth and began to dress. "This day I will go to the grass and hunt, woman wife," he announced as he shrugged into a painted vest and buckled on a wide belt with heavy medallions of silver, gold, and bronze.

"Yes, my sun-and-stars," Dany said. Drogo would take his bloodriders and ride in search of hrakkar, the great white lion of the plains. If they returned triumphant, her lord husband's joy would be fierce, and he might be willing to hear her out.

yes you're probably right and we have to interpret the scene literally. 

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5 hours ago, Dex drako said:

there going to be more to it then that, I believe stannis will have a fake dragon in the DWD 2.0

What exactly is a fake dragon and how exactly does Mel "make" on as you stated on the previous page?

Edited by El Guapo

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comment withdrawn



 

 

Edited by LynnS

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13 minutes ago, El Guapo said:

What exactly is a fake dragon and how exactly does Mel "make" on as you stated on the previous page?

the same way she made stannis the fake lightbringer kings blood magic. Mel will burn someone with kings blood and use that power to make a stone dragon/beast.  it won't be a raised dead dragon, or a sleeping dragon it will be a lump of stone made into a golem like ... puppet for stannis to ride around on

at least that's how i likely see it playing out

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3 hours ago, LynnS said:


"A white lion ran through grass taller than a man."

At first read, I thought this meant the grass was taller than the man.  But the stress is on the italicized words: white lion taller than a man.  Which brings Brienne to mind.

When asked about her height, George R. R. Martin replied:

“ Brienne is well over six feet tall, but not close to seven, no. Just off the top of my head, I would say Brienne is taller than Renly and Jaime and significantly heavier than either, but nowhere near the size of Gregor Clegane, who is the true giant in the series. Shorter than Hodor and the Greatjon, maybe a bit shorter than the Hound, maybe roughly the same height as Robert."


Brienne is taller than Jaime but almost as tall as Sandor Clegane, so taller than most men.  But she doesn't fit the idea of a lion within the Westerosi context.  Some people interpret this to mean the Lannisters, either Tryion or Jaime.  To my mind the Lannisters are golden lions rather than white lions and Jaime is depicted in Bran's visions as the golden man.  Tyrion's height would seem to exclude him unless we're talking about the height of the grass in comparison.  But I don't think that's it.


Brienne is somewhat maleable when it comes to the colors or sigils that she wears depending on who she is pledged; the Tully's, the Rainbow Guard.  She doesn't take a personal sigil until later.  So in a sense, it could be argued that she represents Jaime Lannister as the LC of the White Cloaks or the white lion.  She is on a personal mission to keep the pledge to find and protect the Stark girls for her sake and more importantly for Jaime's sake.


There is a symbolism associated with the lion and the color white that fits Brienne's character,  In addition, white lions in Africa
are not always pure white.  Some are 'blond' with blue eyes.    

The symbolic meaning of lions, as one might imagine, primarily deals with strength.

The fact that it is a nocturnal creature means that the lion is a symbol of authority and command over subconscious thought (as night is an ancient symbol of the subconscious - or dream states).

It's interesting that the lion is considered by many ancient cultures to be a solar animal symbol, however it is primarily a nocturnal creature, conducting its hunting activity mostly at night. Further, the lioness is considered a lunar animal.

This serves as a symbolic message of balance and sound judgment. In that the lion shares the world of both night and day, the lion bears a message of prudence to us. In other words, the lion asks us to not overdo in certain areas of our lives. Rather, keep an even mind and an overall balance in our life activities.

- Wisdom, Power,  Royalty, Dignity, Courage, Justice, Ferocity, Dominion, Authority

In Egypt, the lion represented the ferocious heat of the sun and was seen in the likeness of Sekhmet who is the Egyptian goddess known as the Eye of Ra. She is the power that protects the good and annihilates the wicked.

The color white represents purity and virginity.  The lioness as a lunar animal fits with the symbolism of Brienne's house, Evenfall.  The white lion represents the true knight in my view.

There is very little that I could find about myths about white lions except for this African legend which has an association with a fallen star.

Oral traditions recalls the appearance of white lions over 400 years ago during the reign of Queen Numbi in the region now known as Timbavati. A shining star was seen to fall to the ground, but when Queen Numbi and her people approached, they found it to be a shining ball of metal, brighter than the sun. Queen Numbi, who was an elderly and infirm woman, was swallowed by its light and received by strange beings. When she emerged again, she had been restored to health and youth. The fallen star remained there for some days and then rose back into the sky.

I'm actually surprised to find this reference. It might not be a stretch to think that Martin knows about while lion conservation efforts or even the legends about them; given his interest in wolf conservancy. White lions are as rare in Westeros as they are in Africa.

There is also some interesting stuff in the link pertaining to certain elements in aSoiaF which Martin may have found some inspiration.  Queen Numbi (the Ugly) 'touches the light
', then white lions appear after this encounter with a 'fallen star'.   Further in the author's account; a strange blade shaped rock is venerated and used to make music on the spot where the star had fallen.   :)

There is also a reference to ghost grass, taller than a man, on horseback in Asshai:

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys III

"The Dothraki sea," Ser Jorah Mormont said as he reined to a halt beside her on the top of the ridge. Beneath them, the plain stretched out immense and empty, a vast flat expanse that reached to the distant horizon and beyond. It was a sea, Dany thought. Past here, there were no hills, no mountains, no trees nor cities nor roads, only the endless grasses, the tall blades rippling like waves when the winds blew. "It's so green," she said.

"Here and now," Ser Jorah agreed. "You ought to see it when it blooms, all dark red flowers from horizon to horizon, like a sea of blood. Come the dry season, and the world turns the color of old bronze. And this is only hranna, child. There are a hundred kinds of grass out there, grasses as yellow as lemon and as dark as indigo, blue grasses and orange grasses and grasses like rainbows. Down in the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai, they say there are oceans of ghost grass,taller than a man on horseback with stalks as pale as milkglass. It murders all other grass and glows in the dark with the spirits of the damned. The Dothraki claim that someday ghost grass will cover the entire world, and then all life will end."
 

I have to stick with Brienne on this one. 

Look at how many threads you had to strand together to get to Brienne.  

The lion is white because that is what color GRRM said it was when he wrote GoT, not because he wanted you to think of Brienne.  Instead of looking directly at ASOIAF you bring in African legends.  

You say this:

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the color white that fits Brienne's character

but this is purely based on your interpretation of her character.

Also this:

Quote

So in a sense, it could be argued that she represents Jaime Lannister as the LC of the White Cloaks or the white lion

So many connections you are trying to string together.  

Its the white lion from GoT.  Let's not make everything in the books so deep, sometimes it is what it is.  A duck.

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From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire.

This flying stone beast is the immediate result of Euron beginning his second life inside Drogon, when Euron dies and skinchanges permanently inside Drogon, Drogon will become a great stone beast.

It is a beast and not a dragon because Euron's blood is kraken, thus the end result of this secondlife is a kraken and dragon hybrid, sphinx. It is stone because Euron will have greyscale, and his affliction will be become the beast's.

The tower is Storms End, as Euron is the first and last storm. It will be during one of those once every 77 year epic storms. It is smoking because to achieve a second life inside a dragon one must make a blood sacrifice of their own child, and the child must be of dragon blood, and the child must burn, as too must the person taking up the second life. Euron's horn will likely do for him, but he must burn the child, which he will do atop the tower. And then the process, blood for fire, fire for blood, will be complete, the dragon bound.

The shadow fire is what makes this a lie Dany must slay. A Dragon's fire breath is a weapon against the Others, a true weapon. The stone beast will not be a proper dragon, and due to Euron having greyscale when he second lifes Drogon, the stone beast will breathe not fire but greyscale. Shadow fire is greyscale. The stone beast will be the source of a contagious greyscale that will spread through the realm. The greyscale though, will have a side effect, it will prove an effective deterrent against the Others. The Others either/or hunt by or covet the warm blood of the living. Greyscale sufferers are already dead, and the greyscale turns people cold. The Others/wights will either not be able to track greyscale sufferers, or not bother to. Thus, greyscale will appear a saviour, and the shadow flame that was it's source will be thought deliverance.

However, it will prove to be a false saviour, like the other two things it is grouped with. As a saviour it is a lie. As while the greyscale sufferers will probably live on, any children born to a greyscale mother or father, will be born dead. Or they will simply not be able to conceive (the realm will resemble Ashai, that's what Ashai is for, foreshadowing for how Westeros is going to turn).

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A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly.

Note the grey lips, that's symbolic of greyscale. And the lips are what he uses to blow the horn to achieve his second life in the dragon. It's symbolic of greyscale corruption in the process.

 

 

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In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing.

This goes to the above regarding greyscale. The greyscale starting at the stone beast's shadow fire will spread throughout the realm by rats (Bloodraven mass skinchanging). That's what this scene is about. The realm is the woman, the rats destroying her represent the rats spreading greyscale. Note that the rat men are like the one that brought Dany shade, shade for shadow fire. And we are given a description of the rats destroying the woman's vagina and breasts, reproductive organs, that's because as above the real disaster in the greyscale plague will be that it will kill or prevent the birth of children.

 

 

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A white lion ran through grass taller than a man.

This is Jaime. Note the scene chosen is the lion living and running, it's not the lion's death. That's because it's representing hunting, lions hunt. The grass are the wights (see ghost grass), he's running through them, disregarding them, why?

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Days later, I hunted down the others and slew them as well.

Because he's hunting Others. At some point the tables are going to turn, the hunters will become the hunted and the hunted will become the hunters. Probably they're going to give themselves greyscale so the wights and Others can't track them, then they're going to do what lions do. It's probably going to be the NW, and Jaime is going to lead them, Bran's knight. This is end game, where people are on the brink, not like to survive much longer through the winter for the cold and lack of food, it's synonymous with the tales of winter in the north and how to relieve the stress on the population men would go to war or out into the wild to die.

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She remembered a tale she had heard from Old Nan, about how sometimes during a long winter men who'd lived beyond their years would announce that they were going hunting. And their daughters would weep and their sons would turn their faces to the fire, she could hear Old Nan saying, but no one would stop them, or ask what game they meant to hunt, with the snows so deep and the cold wind howling. She wondered what the old Braavosi told their sons and daughters, before they set off for the House of Black and White.

They're going to buy the realm time, and they're not intending on coming back.

Hounds and wolves also hunt, and it will be Bran directing this.

 

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A little girl ran barefoot toward a big house with a red door.

This is Dany entering her second life. The big house and it's red door is her home. Her home is inside Drogon, the red is the fiery heart of the dragon. Dany will die, and when her corpse is burned, she will awaken inside the stone beast, only because she's Dany, of true Targaryen blood and the last dragon, when she awakens inside the stone beast it will be reborn as a dragon, the stone will shed, it's warped kraken form turn back to pure dragon but of a size with Balerion, and its heart will flame and it will breathe fire again.

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Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. "Mother!" they cried. "Mother, mother!" They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her food, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them.

This has not happened. This goes with the one above. These people are not literal slaves, they are the last of humanity on Westeros, they are greyscale sufferers, and they are about to be wiped out by the Others. What they need from Dany is the fire, the life, and Dany gasps and gives it. This is Dany dying and becoming the dragon, the fire, to save them. And when she does die, burns and is reborn, so too will everyone else be reborn. Not just because the dragon she becomes defeats the Others, but because when she emerges as the dragon and sheds its stone, the greyscale afflicted will be cured. It's a curse, Garin's curse, and curses end when the source is destroyed. Thus all those who fought and died (got greyscale) in Dany's name, will be reborn.

 

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"once for blood" is commonly interpreted as referring to the blood magic ritual, but why couldn't it refer to her lineage? 

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2 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

 

 

This goes to the above regarding greyscale. The greyscale starting at the stone beast's shadow fire will spread throughout the realm by rats (Bloodraven mass skinchanging). That's what this scene is about. The realm is the woman, the rats destroying her represent the rats spreading greyscale. Note that the rat men are like the one that brought Dany shade, shade for shadow fire. And we are given a description of the rats destroying the woman's vagina and breasts, reproductive organs, that's because as above the real disaster in the greyscale plague will be that it will kill or prevent the birth of children.

 

 

This is Jaime. Note the scene chosen is the lion living and running, it's not the lion's death. That's because it's representing hunting, lions hunt. The grass are the wights (see ghost grass), he's running through them, disregarding them, why?

Because he's hunting Others. At some point the tables are going to turn, the hunters will become the hunted and the hunted will become the hunters. Probably they're going to give themselves greyscale so the wights and Others can't track them, then they're going to do what lions do. It's probably going to be the NW, and Jaime is going to lead them, Bran's knight. This is end game, where people are on the brink, not like to survive much longer through the winter for the cold and lack of food, it's synonymous with the tales of winter in the north and how to relieve the stress on the population men would go to war or out into the wild to die.

They're going to buy the realm time, and they're not intending on coming back.

Hounds and wolves also hunt, and it will be Bran directing this.

 

This is Dany entering her second life. The big house and it's red door is her home. Her home is inside Drogon, the red is the fiery heart of the dragon. Dany will die, and when her corpse is burned, she will awaken inside the stone beast, only because she's Dany, of true Targaryen blood and the last dragon, when she awakens inside the stone beast it will be reborn as a dragon, the stone will shed, it's warped kraken form turn back to pure dragon but of a size with Balerion, and its heart will flame and it will breathe fire again.

This has not happened. This goes with the one above. These people are not literal slaves, they are the last of humanity on Westeros, they are greyscale sufferers, and they are about to be wiped out by the Others. What they need from Dany is the fire, the life, and Dany gasps and gives it. This is Dany dying and becoming the dragon, the fire, to save them. And when she does die, burns and is reborn, so too will everyone else be reborn. Not just because the dragon she becomes defeats the Others, but because when she emerges as the dragon and sheds its stone, the greyscale afflicted will be cured. It's a curse, Garin's curse, and curses end when the source is destroyed. Thus all those who fought and died (got greyscale) in Dany's name, will be reborn.

 

No. 

The four little men ravaging the beautiful woman is the four pretenders trying to take Dany's throne (at this time Balon hasn't declared). Dany is the beautiful woman. Robb, Joff, Renly, and Stannis are the little men. Her body is Westeros.

The white lion is the one Drogo killed in GoT. See excerpt from my earlier post. Read LM's take on the symbolism of it. 

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And the last one.... it has happened. Storm of Swords Dany IV: 

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Dany felt a lightness in her chest. I will never bear a living child, she remembered. Her hand trembled as she raised it. Perhaps she smiled. She must have, because the man grinned and shouted again, and others took up the cry. "Mhysa!" they called. "Mhysa! MHYSA!" They were all smiling at her,reaching for her, kneeling before her. "Maela," some called her, while others cried "Aelalla" or "Qathei" or "Tato," but whatever the tongue it all meant the same thing. Mother. They are calling me Mother.

 

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about the line 'from a burning tower a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire':

The one incident that really happened in the books and fits this line of prophecy pretty straightforwardly is the burning of the First Keep of Winterfell.

- the First Keep was a tower that burned

- the first keep was adorned with stone beasts (gargoyles)

- we know from the later Winterfell chapters that (at least) one of the gargoyles fell down as a result of the fire ('took wing')

- Bran's vision through summer during the fire sees something like 'shadow fire' over Winterfell

- a fallen gargoyle in a house fire would IMO kind of neatly fit GRRM's known love for having epic sounding prophecies fulfilled in mundane ways (i.e. a prince who is prophecied to die under the walls of a certain castle really dying under a tavern sign depicting that castle). And here instead of some epic fire-breathing dragon we have a piece of masonry (stone ornament) falling down in a house fire.

 

 

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4 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Look at how many threads you had to strand together to get to Brienne.  

The lion is white because that is what color GRRM said it was when he wrote GoT, not because he wanted you to think of Brienne.  Instead of looking directly at ASOIAF you bring in African legends.  

You say this:

but this is purely based on your interpretation of her character.

Also this:

So many connections you are trying to string together.  

Its the white lion from GoT.  Let's not make everything in the books so deep, sometimes it is what it is.  A duck.

Or it's just a white lion and the vision is pointless.

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50 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

No. 

The four little men ravaging the beautiful woman is the four pretenders trying to take Dany's throne (at this time Balon hasn't declared). Dany is the beautiful woman. Robb, Joff, Renly, and Stannis are the little men. Her body is Westeros.

The white lion is the one Drogo killed in GoT. See excerpt from my earlier post. Read LM's take on the symbolism of it. 

There's nothing in any of that which hasn't long been discussed.

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three mounts must you ride . . . one to bed and one to dread and one to love . . . The voices were growing louder, she realized, and it seemed her heart was slowing, and even her breath

One to bed, other to dread, and one to love. Drogo, Euron and Jon. Point here is Drogo is love, which leaves Jon to bed. Dany and Jon will be together, but the coupling isn't going to be one of love.

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three treasons will you know . . . once for blood and once for gold and once for love . . .

The treason for blood is Euron's blood betrayal, taking Drogon in his second life, essentially stealing Drogon from Dany. The treason for love Dany will commit against Jon. Jon will refuse to sleep with her, she will want to sleep with him as she will believe she needs a child of her own to get back Drogon, and only a true Targaryen of pure blood will be able to father a child on her. Dany will disguise herself as Ygritte, Jon's love, to get him to sleep with her. It is treason because Jon is her king, which she will understand. 

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7 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

No. 

The four little men ravaging the beautiful woman is the four pretenders trying to take Dany's throne (at this time Balon hasn't declared). Dany is the beautiful woman. Robb, Joff, Renly, and Stannis are the little men. Her body is Westeros.

The white lion is the one Drogo killed in GoT. See excerpt from my earlier post. Read LM's take on the symbolism of it. 

The House of the Undying Ones (Daenerys IV, Clash 48) is pretty trippy. One of the most curious aspects of it is the number three, which is echoed throughout the scene.

By my reckoning, she even turns at least 360 degrees three times while moving through the preternatural house. But the sequence of visions in sets of threes and multiples of three, is intriguing.

The first vision Daenerys sees in the House of the Undying Ones, of the beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor, is a foreshadowing for the reader of what is to come in the House of the Undying chapter and a clue as to what is really happening. The Undying are trying to trap Daenerys so that they can draw upon her power.

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"Blue lips speak only lies, isnt that what Xaro told you? Why do you care what the warlocks whispered? All they wanted was to suck the life from you, you know that now."

Jorah to Daenerys, Daenerys V, Clash

They set before her three visions to lure her in: 1) the Red Wedding, a vision of war-torn Westeros seeking a just ruler; 2) her childhood room, the lemon tree, and Willem Darry, a vision of her peaceful early childhood (even if there is something rotten about that lemon tree in Braavos); 3) and Pyat Pree, a vision of a guide willing to show her the way.

In addition to 1) the first vision of the beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor, Daenerys glimpses two other visions that are not designed to trap her but seem more designed by The George to develop our understanding of what is going on in the story: 2) a vision of Aerys's plan to burn King's Landing; and 3) a vision of Rhaegar wrestling with the prince-that-was-promised prophecy. 

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6 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

There's nothing in any of that which hasn't long been discussed.

 

I am not sure what you mean by this.  It's wrong because its been discussed before?

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14 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

 

The first vision Daenerys sees in the House of the Undying Ones, of the beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor, is a foreshadowing for the reader of what is to come in the House of the Undying chapter and a clue as to what is really happening. The Undying are trying to trap Daenerys so that they can draw upon her power.

Don't you think the number four is relevant here?

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In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing.

The four men are crawling over her body, as the four pretenders are marching through Westeros, killing people, burning crops, etc.  They are pumping, savaging, worrying, tearing, and chewing.  These actions hurt (yes, I know some people are into it and I respect that but generally speaking this hurts most people).  

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7 hours ago, LynnS said:

Or it's just a white lion and the vision is pointless.

Not pointless at all.  Read Lost Melnibonean's breakdown of it in an earlier reply in this post.  Interesting stuff.

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3 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Don't you think the number four is relevant here?

The four men are crawling over her body, as the four pretenders are marching through Westeros, killing people, burning crops, etc.  They are pumping, savaging, worrying, tearing, and chewing.  These actions hurt (yes, I know some people are into it and I respect that but generally speaking this hurts most people).  

Absolutely...

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In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing.

I've read in other threads that most think this vision represemts the Seven Kingdoms being raped by four claimants (Joff, Robb, Stannis and Balon or Renly).

I disagree. I think it's a warning of what waits for her in the Houseof the Undying Ones. Keep in mind this is the first vision. Later Dany comes to a set of ebony and weirwood doors. Beyond the doors was a great hall and a splendor of wizards. Four wizards were described (a kingly man/wizard king, a woman with a bare breast, a warrior, and a handsome man). Then Dany passed the old grey door into the chamber with the blue heart. There were figures around a table no more than blue shadows. only two were described, echoing the first two wizards in the previous room (an old man wrinkled and hairless and an ancient woman with one withered breast left bare). After Drogon went off on them she found them reaching, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching, twining fingers through her hair, a hand on her breast twisting her nipple, teeth finding her throat, a mouth descending on one eye licking, sucking biting...

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