Revisiting the HOTUD Prophecies

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

3 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Absolutely...

I've read in other threads that most think this vision represemts the Seven Kingdoms being raped by four claimants (Joff, Robb, Stannis and Balon or Renly).

I disagree. I think it's a warning of what waits for her in the Houseof the Undying Ones. Keep in mind this is the first vision. Later Dany comes to a set of ebony and weirwood doors. Beyond the doors was a great hall and a splendor of wizards. Four wizards were described (a kingly man/wizard king, a woman with a bare breast, a warrior, and a handsome man). Then Dany passed the old grey door into the chamber with the blue heart. There were figures around a table no more than blue shadows. only two were described, echoing the first two wizards in the previous room (an old man wrinkled and hairless and an ancient woman with one withered breast left bare). After Drogon went off on them she found them reaching, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching, twining fingers through her hair, a hand on her breast twisting her nipple, teeth finding her throat, a mouth descending on one eye licking, sucking biting...

I can see why you would interpret the vision that way if you look at the HOTU experience as a whole (which is totally reasonable).  

However, in the text you are speaking of: 

Quote

Beyond the doors was a great hall and a splendor of wizards. Some wore sumptuous robes of ermine, ruby velvet, and cloth of gold. Others fancied elaborate armor studded with gemstones, or tall pointed hats speckled with stars. There were women among them, dressed in gowns of surpassing loveliness. Shafts of sunlight slanted through windows of stained glass, and the air was alive with the most beautiful music she had ever heard.

I think if the 4 ravaging little men was a warning of what waits for her GRRM would have had men and women and it he wouldn't have specified that there were 4.  4 fits too well for the situation in Westeros for me to think it is anything other than the 4 pretenders in Westeros.  

Also, it says a "splendor of wizards".  I suppose a splendor could mean four, but I would presume it means more.  While 4 speak to her, it appears as though there could be more than 4 in the room.

[Lost Melnibonean]

2 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I can see why you would interpret the vision that way if you look at the HOTU experience as a whole (which is totally reasonable).  

However, in the text you are speaking of: 

I think if the 4 ravaging little men was a warning of what waits for her GRRM would have had men and women and it he wouldn't have specified that there were 4.  4 fits too well for the situation in Westeros for me to think it is anything other than the 4 pretenders in Westeros.  

Also, it says a "splendor of wizards".  I suppose a splendor could mean four, but I would presume it means more.  While 4 speak to her, it appears as though there could be more than 4 in the room.

There were more than four, but four were described, reaching, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching, twining fingers through her hair, a hand on her breast twisting her nipple, teeth finding her throat, a mouth descending on one eye licking, sucking biting...

[sweetsunray]

On 4-9-2016 at 8:48 AM, El Dude said:

10) Shadows dancing in a tent. -- Perhaps from the Mirri Maz Duur resurection scene, but perhaps not. Unclear

11) A little barefoot girl running towards a large house with a red door. -- Perhaps from Dany's childhood. Some suggest that it's Arya running away from Westeros to Braavos, but I don't buy it. (Tangent: the problem here is that the place from Dany's childhood memories that she thinks is Braavos, can't be Braavos. The key part is the lemon tree. They only grow in very warm sunny climates such as Dorne. So that place can't be Braavos, a city famous for its fog and chill. There is a problem with Dany's early memories, some even say that Dany isn't Dany but (f)Dany similar to (f)Aegon. I'm not yet willing to go that far, but there are some very valid unexplained points.) Very Unclear.

12) Mirri Maz Duur shreiking in the flames as a dragon bursts from her brow. -- This seems to have happened, but there may be another meaning. Mostly clear.

13) Behind a silver horse the body of a dead man bounced and dragged. -- At face value this seems to have happened with the hired wine assassin, but earlier Dany referred to her silver horse as "her silver" while this one is described as "a silver horse." I may be looking too much into the wording but this seems to imply a different horse and scene, but I'm not convinced too much one way or the other. Unclear.

14) A white lion ran through the grass taller than a man. -- The white lion at face value implies Jamie Lannister, but the tall grass is only in the Dothraki sea far from Westeros. It could imply Tyrion, or the rare white lion Drogo killed for her. What this scene implies about the rest of the books is questionable. Very unclear.

15) A line of crones emerges naked from the lake at the Mother of Mountains and brow to her. -- At the end of Dance, Dany reunites with the Dothraki who in the show take Dany back to Veas Dothrak. She will probably do something as the show depicts and win the alliance of the Dosh khaleen and a unified Dothraki people.

16) Dany races by lines of slaves who chant: "Mother!" -- This did happen in ASOS. At face value it appears to be true/fulfilled. Quite clear.

These are not just things that happened, but they either happened for "her" or done "by" her.

10) Dany did not want to hear a "no" from MMD about saving Drogo. She lost Rhaego over it, and many others, including the Lhazareen girl she took as slave to protect her from being raped.

11) It's her childhood memory where Darry took her, and likely where the wedding pact with a Martell was drafted (originally Viserys and Arianne). Quentyn comes to her to honor that pact. Now for Dany being sent away from the house with the red door was the start of her wandering life with Viserys and being at his mercy "not to wake the dragon". Old Darry died of sickness, but did he? Why were they turned away? There's no reason for Braavos to be afraid of Westeros. Viserys never knew about the marriage pact with Arianne, and Doran was unable to locate Viserys and Dany. Is it possible that Ilyrio and Varys had a hand in either killing faithful Darry, but especially in having Dany and Viserys being ousted. Why would they do that? They don't want Viserys to marry a Martell and raise an army. They want to install Aegon. Then around the age that Dany becomes marriagable (no matter how young in our eyes), Ilyrio thinks little of her and why he gave her to Drogo instead of keeping her for himself (or Aegon more likely?). Then she has dragons, and that's when Ilyrio suddenly sends Belwas and Selmy to fetch her and get her back to Pentos, this time no doubt to have her marry Aegon. 

12) She burned MMD alive for revenge and to get a life from death: dragon life

13) The wine seller. This provoked Drogo in going on a campaign of attacking the Lhazareen to to win Dany her throne in Westeros. The reason why it's "a silver horse" instead of "silver" is because Dany does not like to "look back". It's a form of dissociation. She's seeing something of her past life she prefers not to be reminded of for emotional reasons (likely feelings of guilt). 

14) I think this is indeed the white lion that Drogo hunts. It's when he goes hunting for the white lion, that Dany goes to the market and meets the wine seller and the poison plot comes to light.

15) As a widow she was to join the Dosh Khaleen. It's also at Vaes Dothrak that her brother dies and she's prophesied to brith the Stallion that Mounts the World.

16) These people follow her to Mereen, where they're dying of Pale Mare, or are killed by the Harpy's sons or those of Astapor that die from sickness and inn-fighting and then attacked by slavers, while she refuses help.

In other words, though I'm not saying she alone is responsible for it all, she is either the cause or indeed directly responsible, and she prefers not to be reminded of her part in it.

[sweetsunray]

On 25-9-2016 at 6:42 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

I think it's a warning of what waits for her in the Houseof the Undying Ones. Keep in mind this is the first vision. Later Dany comes to a set of ebony and weirwood doors. Beyond the doors was a great hall and a splendor of wizards. Four wizards were described (a kingly man/wizard king, a woman with a bare breast, a warrior, and a handsome man). Then Dany passed the old grey door into the chamber with the blue heart. There were figures around a table no more than blue shadows. only two were described, echoing the first two wizards in the previous room (an old man wrinkled and hairless and an ancient woman with one withered breast left bare). After Drogon went off on them she found them reaching, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching, twining fingers through her hair, a hand on her breast twisting her nipple, teeth finding her throat, a mouth descending on one eye licking, sucking biting..

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

10 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I think George could want us to think this. Maybe he wants both this and the four kings ravaging her kingdom... I guess that's the beauty of interpretation, it's open. 

I can't get over the fact that George says, "four little men". For me, it fits to well with the four kings who have declared at this point. 

Quote

In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing.

Later when Dany is ravaged, one of the Undying is a female.

Quote

Through the indigo murk, she could make out the wizened features of the Undying One to her right, an old old man, wrinkled and hairless. His flesh was a ripe violet-blue, his lips and nails bluer still, so dark they were almost black. Even the whites of his eyes were blue. They stared unseeing at the ancient woman on the opposite side of the table, whose gown of pale silk had rotted on her body. One withered breast was left bare in the Qartheen manner, to show a pointed blue nipple hard as leather.

I think the vision fits better with the four kings ravaging Dany's kingdom. But I can see your interpretation as well. I just can't get past how specific it says that there are four men. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I guess that's the beauty of interpretation, it's open. 

Absolutely. 

[ThePrinceThatKnewNothing]

Great theory. And most definitely some of the most interesting visions and prophecies in the book. 

"...three fires must you light... one for life and one for death and one to love..."

 

"...three mounts must you ride... one to bed and one to dread and one to love..."

 

"...three treasons you will know... once for blood and once for gold and once for love..."

I think all the ones for love are Jon. It seems inevitable they will fall in love. The fire to love could be a recreation of Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa or it could be Dany burning Jon's body once he dies. We have been told the ending will be bittersweet and I think that will mean one of Jon and Dany will sacrifice themselves. Jon sacrificing himself could be the treason for love Or Jon plunges his sword through Dany recreating the Nissa Nissa story. Or with a different spin the third and final treason could be a treason she has to commit, killing Jon.