Long Night Never Happened, but it's happening now.

[JonGreen]

Where to begin such craziness? First off, this theory of mine has been combined with many other theories in which I happen to agree with and credit them for a lot of the below.

Here goes :

- Bran Stark is Brandon the Builder
- The Long Night was his favourite story growing up
- That's because the long night is the tale he told his children who grew up to be the line of Starks
- The Long Night never happened, it was something that Bran warns the Children of the forest about, as they are the ones that created them.
  Thus is why the Children of the Forest turned on their creation.
- Bran with the children of the forest build the wall
- Bran in the present has no idea that he is bran the builder until Sam discovers a book that bran wrote when he also built high towers for old town eight thousand years ago.
- It is Bran who created the prophecy of The Prince who was promised and Azor Ahai
- Sam discovers that the story of the long night in more detail and realises that the story is a lot like the present
- From there Sam discovers what needs to be done to kill The Others (needs to forge a hero's sword)
- In order for The Great Other (Nights King) to die he must be killed with a hero's blade
- Ice the ancestral sword of House Stark will be reforged, perhaps with heartsbane - not sure the relevance of Sam taking his ancestral sword 
- Complications however ensue as Ice continues to shatter until... melisandre tells Jon that he must sacrifice Danny in order to reforge Ice.
- Jon pierces the heart and soul of Danny. 'Song of Ice and Fire'.
- The bittersweet moment that George R. R. Martin threatens us all begins
- All the dragons perish in the battle of the dawn
- Danny dies at the hands of Jon and never got to sit the iron throne
- But the world is safe now as Jon kills The Great Other with the reforged Ice at the gates of Winterfell (Where winter fell).
- Bran falls back into the past
- Jon, who has been tormented his whole entire life by being a bastard, suffering from his brothers of the watch killing him, then killing Danny and being the only one to for fill the prophecy decides to leave and live a solitude life away from the world he once knew. 
- Tyrion is left to rule with his wife... Sansa. These two are the only ones who know how to play the political game well enough to see peace and prosperity
- Arya commands Winterfell, she was never going to marry another lord and have babies ('that's not me' - Arya says to her father Ned). She was born for more. She becomes Wardeness of the North  

How does Bran know enough to build the wall? How does he know how to build anything? He doesn't but Sam helps him with prints of all the castles. How does he know? Sam realises early on that someone had to write this prophecy/story. There will be further information on this untold as yet in the books and Tv Show that will assist Sam to learn about Bran. For Bran the Builder, don't forget Brandon the Builder gets help from the Children of the Forest so it's not unlikely that assistance brings more than just magic.

Love your feedback and I'm only a modest contributor so please be kind  

[Byfort of Corfe]

As theories go it is certainly original.  So is current Bran a reincarnation of Bran the Builder?

[JonGreen]

56 minutes ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

As theories go it is certainly original.  So is current Bran a reincarnation of Bran the Builder?

Thanks mate. So that's a great question. I guess I would have to confess that i'm not completely skilled in time travel theories however I wouldn't say his a reincarnation of bran the builder however it's more of a revolving timeline that has been and continues to happen.

[MoreOrLess]

Certainly some interesting ideas and at this stage I do agree that if the story is going to throw a real curveball with the climax it does seem likely to come from Bran and potentially the history around him and the Starks as we now know(could be we don't know everything I spose) about the background of The Walkers now seemingly shooting down a lot of more complex theories about them.

Brans potential for interaction with the past has clearly been made a point of with Ned and Hodor and the fact the 3ER doesn't seem to know of this ability perhaps makes it more likely that its going to be a power that sets the story off in an unforeseen direction?

The simplest revelation from the past I think Bran could potentially have is perhaps uncovering some version of the history of house Stark with the Warg King and via them maybe to the Children of the Forrest. It might be a bit too much of a diversion at this stage but maybe the area around Sea Dragon Point could become something to do with this(Bran and/or Jon visiting it) and potentially have some more surviving Children still living there? The alterative would I spose be the crypts in Winterfell but that wouldn't have the potential for the children.

[Byfort of Corfe]

15 minutes ago, MoreOrLess said:

 

Brans potential for interaction with the past has clearly been made a point of with Ned and Hodor and the fact the 3ER doesn't seem to know of this ability perhaps makes it more likely that its going to be a power that sets the story off in an unforeseen direction?

 

It does seem that the 3 eyed raven can visit the past but Bran can actually interact with it.  That may be vital in the fight against the Night's King.

[JonGreen]

59 minutes ago, MoreOrLess said:

Certainly some interesting ideas and at this stage I do agree that if the story is going to throw a real curveball with the climax it does seem likely to come from Bran and potentially the history around him and the Starks as we now know(could be we don't know everything I spose) about the background of The Walkers now seemingly shooting down a lot of more complex theories about them.

Brans potential for interaction with the past has clearly been made a point of with Ned and Hodor and the fact the 3ER doesn't seem to know of this ability perhaps makes it more likely that its going to be a power that sets the story off in an unforeseen direction?

The simplest revelation from the past I think Bran could potentially have is perhaps uncovering some version of the history of house Stark with the Warg King and via them maybe to the Children of the Forrest. It might be a bit too much of a diversion at this stage but maybe the area around Sea Dragon Point could become something to do with this(Bran and/or Jon visiting it) and potentially have some more surviving Children still living there? The alterative would I spose be the crypts in Winterfell but that wouldn't have the potential for the children.

It has definitely within the TV series that Bran can interact with the past. If you remember also that the 3ER also cautioned Bran about staying within the past too long. Often we witnessed scenes where the 3ER pulled Bran out of the past and into the present.

This is where I believe Bran will lose himself in the past and stay there, becoming Bran the Builder towards the end of season 8. 

RE: Bran see the Stark past. I believe Bran's warging into the past will be minimal going forward. The way I see things playing out is that Bran will try and warg back into the past when there was the long night however only sees the present and future events. He struggles with this as he doesn't understand why he isn't able to go back. This will indicate to the audience that the long night hasn't happened but it's coming.

[MoreOrLess]

8 hours ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

It does seem that the 3 eyed raven can visit the past but Bran can actually interact with it.  That may be vital in the fight against the Night's King.

I spose we do get some payoff with this in Hodor although they make a point of showing Ned turning around again during the finale which they could have  cut out and gone straight to the tower of joy. This does to me seem like a likely setup to Bran interacting with the past having a role to play in the story.

One other area that does seem to backup parts of JonGreens theory is that Hodor seems to point towards a closed time loop, that its that Bran cannot change the present by interacting with the past as the effects of his interaction already exist in the present.

In terms of how Bran might "become" Bran the Builder an alternative to Bran being thrown directly into the past I spose is that he might Warg into someone else's body in the past instead.

Again my general feeling is that Bran will be the element of the unexpected in the build towards the climax. In the past a lot of theories centred around the Walkers/Others perhaps having a more complex background and role in the world, I spose we can't totally rule that out but still the reveal that the children created the Night King seems to suggest they'll be viewed as unnatural weapons out to destroy all life. I think this does make a lot of sense as well, how exactly would complexity of the Walkers/Others be communicated? doesn't seem easy were as Bran revealing details about the children, the history of the starks, etc has someone who can both communication with other character AND actually show us this history.

 

[Byfort of Corfe]

We may have seen a clue that Bran may be able to impact the past in his interaction at the Tower of Joy.  The first time that he is there he calls to his father, who turns.  In his second visit, when he sees the birth of Jon he doesn't call out yet his father turns anyway.  Now admittedly this could be because, as the 3 eyed Raven said the first time, maybe his father turned because of a gust of wind or for some other reason.  Maybe when the episode originally happened (when Bran wasn't there) his father turned as he was going up the steps.  But maybe Bran has imprinted a change in the course of events.  Bran is still learning his powers and I think that as he does he will become not only more powerful but also have a greater effect on the story. 

[MoreOrLess]

1 hour ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

We may have seen a clue that Bran may be able to impact the past in his interaction at the Tower of Joy.  The first time that he is there he calls to his father, who turns.  In his second visit, when he sees the birth of Jon he doesn't call out yet his father turns anyway.  Now admittedly this could be because, as the 3 eyed Raven said the first time, maybe his father turned because of a gust of wind or for some other reason.  Maybe when the episode originally happened (when Bran wasn't there) his father turned as he was going up the steps.  But maybe Bran has imprinted a change in the course of events.  Bran is still learning his powers and I think that as he does he will become not only more powerful but also have a greater effect on the story. 

I think the key part of the OP's theory(or indeed a lot of other potential plots that could happen along similar lines) is exactly that Bran isn't "changing" things, rather he's playing a role in making sure events turn out in the fashion they already have.

Look at the Hodor situation, he's mentally damaged already before events around Bran and co cause him to be, he doesn't suddenly change after those events. That suggests that any actions Bran might take to alter the past already exist in the present. Of course even if that's the case Bran can have an effect on the present by using knowledge of the past within it.

Generally I think this view of time travel does seem to fit in with the tone of the story to me, this ability of Bran to alter the past isn't some magical get out of jail card but rather an additional burden he has to allow events to unfold as they have.

[Byfort of Corfe]

Of course there are all sorts of conundrums with time travel scenarios not the least of which is the Law of Unintended Effects.  Perhaps Bran keeps the Children of the Forest from creating the White Walkers, but maybe that has the effect  that suddenly in the present the Dothraki have overwhelmed everything and all the Westerosi are enslaved.    I think that Bran can have small effects, for example he may be able to influence a Character's behavior (such as with his Father and Hodor) but if it isn't in that characters nature then it won't work.

[MoreOrLess]

25 minutes ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

Of course there are all sorts of conundrums with time travel scenarios not the least of which is the Law of Unintended Effects.  Perhaps Bran keeps the Children of the Forest from creating the White Walkers, but maybe that has the effect  that suddenly in the present the Dothraki have overwhelmed everything and all the Westerosi are enslaved.    I think that Bran can have small effects, for example he may be able to influence a Character's behavior (such as with his Father and Hodor) but if it isn't in that characters nature then it won't work.

JonGreen and my arguments though is that this is exactly NOT the kind of time travel the show has thus far suggested we might see. Again think of Hodor, we do not see him suddenly change into a mentally damaged person in the present when Bran inadvertently causes that damage in the past, he's always been mentally damaged. That suggests that the consequences of any actions Bran might make to change the past are already accounted for in the present.

That does not I spose mean that Bran cannot have a positive effect on the present I spose, to give the classic example perhaps he gets someone to bury an important key under a rock 500 years ago then tells someone about it in the present, the key has always been under the rock in the present but its only after causing it to be there that Bran knows it is.

Still my feeling is that it would probably be mor ein keeping with the style of the story to not have time travel used this way, if Bran can have an impact on the past then it potentially becomes more of a burden to the degree he might have to shift into the past totally to achieve it as the OP mentions. I suspect that the positive effect on the present from his time traveling is more likely to be simply shearing knowledge gained.

If something like this did happen I'm guessing the Babylon 5 comparisons would come up again given that a VERY similar kind of plot to the one the OP mentions happens with Sinclair.

 

[Byfort of Corfe]

28 minutes ago, MoreOrLess said:

JonGreen and my arguments though is that this is exactly NOT the kind of time travel the show has thus far suggested we might see. Again think of Hodor, we do not see him suddenly change into a mentally damaged person in the present when Bran inadvertently causes that damage in the past, he's always been mentally damaged. That suggests that the consequences of any actions Bran might make to change the past are already accounted for in the present.

 

 

But we don't see the change in Hodor because we have lived through that time line.  But let's take the case of Ned.  When Ned walked up the stairs and Bran called out to him Ned turned.  Now, had that turn always been there or is it something that Bran's interaction introduced?  And had Bran not called out would Ned have simply walked up the stairs?  The way the scene is shot it is pretty obvious that Ned is looking for someone or some thing.  But either way we don't know. 

 

Let's look at this another way, let's say that someone today had a time machine and they went back to 1588 and saw to it that the Spanish Armada was successful.  Now to us it wouldn't be a flash change even though the guy made the change just a few minutes ago, to us, since in our new timeline that change has always been there for us whatever effects that has on History have always been there. 

 

However the OP seems to be postulating that Bran Stark is Brandon the builder reborn, with Jon as Azor Ahai.  An interesting theory indeed however not even GRRM is certain that Brandon the Builder existed.  This is from ASOIAF's wiki;

 

"No one can even say for certain if Brandon the Builder ever lived. He is as remote from the time of the novels as Noah and Gilgamesh are from our own time"

 

Now as for Jon being Azor Ahai and having to forge a sword (Lightbringer) out of the sword "Ice" well, the Starks have access to "Ice" or part of it anyway but Azor Ahai is a legend out of Asshai and is only one of several legends about how the Other will be defeated.  Azor Ahai is the one who plunged his sword into the breast of Nissa Nissa, killing her but creating a magical sword.  This is completely in keeping with the worship of R'Hllor with it's emphasis on Human Sacrifice.  But while the original Azor Ahai forged "Lightbringer" there is nothing in the prophesy that says that the new Azor Ahai must forge the sword again, from "Clash of Kings"

 

"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him"

 

He draws form the fire a sword, kind of like whoever pulls the sword from the stone or takes the sword proffered by the Lady of the Lake.  It doesn't say he forges it or that he draws it from someone's breast.  Now perhaps what Sam finds in the Citadel is the location of "Lightbringer", a magical sword already in existence.  Just a theory, no more valid than anyone else's.   Of course a more common legend in the 7 Kingdoms is the "Prince that was promised" and here we're getting into, as with much of this a melding of the books and the showbut just for a moment, for TPTWP you need someone born amidst salt and smoke and Jon doesn't really fit any of that, even his "re-birth" at the hands of Melisandre.

[MoreOrLess]

On ‎13‎/‎09‎/‎2016 at 11:37 PM, Byfort of Corfe said:

But we don't see the change in Hodor because we have lived through that time line.  But let's take the case of Ned.  When Ned walked up the stairs and Bran called out to him Ned turned.  Now, had that turn always been there or is it something that Bran's interaction introduced?  And had Bran not called out would Ned have simply walked up the stairs?  The way the scene is shot it is pretty obvious that Ned is looking for someone or some thing.  But either way we don't know. 

Let's look at this another way, let's say that someone today had a time machine and they went back to 1588 and saw to it that the Spanish Armada was successful.  Now to us it wouldn't be a flash change even though the guy made the change just a few minutes ago, to us, since in our new timeline that change has always been there for us whatever effects that has on History have always been there. 

The key perspective is that of the time traveller though, in your example someone went back to 1588 and changed the fate of the Spainish Armada and then returned to their present to see the effects of that then yes history would have changed for them. This isn't what we see in Game of Thrones as Bran has always known Hodor as mentally damaged, this doesn't change after Bran inadvertently causes it in the past. Basically it suggests deterministic time travel, that is whatever intensions Bran might have in potentially trying to change the past the outcome of it is already set by the present reality so no paradox is possible.

Again I think this kind of time travel is more in keeping with the story since it doesn't offer such obvious "quick fixes" to problems in the present, indeed it is potentially a bitter sweet ability if as the OP mentioned Bran were effectively forced to go into the past to take his role as Bran the builder or indeed something similar. There are potential "get outs" as I mentioned since the knowledge of the changes he might make could help Bran (the example I gave of him causing something of value to be hidden in the past, that thing if value has always been hidden in the present but its not until after causing it to be hidden that Bran knows where it is to make use of it) but honestly I think its more likely that changing the past if it happens will be more Bran fulfilling his role not providing help in the present, the help he gives will more likely be knowledge of the past.

 

 

[JonGreen]

On 14 September 2016 at 8:37 AM, Byfort of Corfe said:

But we don't see the change in Hodor because we have lived through that time line.  But let's take the case of Ned.  When Ned walked up the stairs and Bran called out to him Ned turned.  Now, had that turn always been there or is it something that Bran's interaction introduced?  And had Bran not called out would Ned have simply walked up the stairs?  The way the scene is shot it is pretty obvious that Ned is looking for someone or some thing.  But either way we don't know. 

 

Let's look at this another way, let's say that someone today had a time machine and they went back to 1588 and saw to it that the Spanish Armada was successful.  Now to us it wouldn't be a flash change even though the guy made the change just a few minutes ago, to us, since in our new timeline that change has always been there for us whatever effects that has on History have always been there. 

 

However the OP seems to be postulating that Bran Stark is Brandon the builder reborn, with Jon as Azor Ahai.  An interesting theory indeed however not even GRRM is certain that Brandon the Builder existed.  This is from ASOIAF's wiki;

 

"No one can even say for certain if Brandon the Builder ever lived. He is as remote from the time of the novels as Noah and Gilgamesh are from our own time"

 

Now as for Jon being Azor Ahai and having to forge a sword (Lightbringer) out of the sword "Ice" well, the Starks have access to "Ice" or part of it anyway but Azor Ahai is a legend out of Asshai and is only one of several legends about how the Other will be defeated.  Azor Ahai is the one who plunged his sword into the breast of Nissa Nissa, killing her but creating a magical sword.  This is completely in keeping with the worship of R'Hllor with it's emphasis on Human Sacrifice.  But while the original Azor Ahai forged "Lightbringer" there is nothing in the prophesy that says that the new Azor Ahai must forge the sword again, from "Clash of Kings"

 

"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him"

 

He draws form the fire a sword, kind of like whoever pulls the sword from the stone or takes the sword proffered by the Lady of the Lake.  It doesn't say he forges it or that he draws it from someone's breast.  Now perhaps what Sam finds in the Citadel is the location of "Lightbringer", a magical sword already in existence.  Just a theory, no more valid than anyone else's.   Of course a more common legend in the 7 Kingdoms is the "Prince that was promised" and here we're getting into, as with much of this a melding of the books and the showbut just for a moment, for TPTWP you need someone born amidst salt and smoke and Jon doesn't really fit any of that, even his "re-birth" at the hands of Melisandre.

Some really good insights here. For me I find the prophesies you've taken And transposed to be too literal. Nothing in grrm world is that straight forward.

I'd say with respect to grrm quote, bran the builder may never have existed. I believe grrm is manipulating his discussion to ensure his biggest bombshell is not given away, perhaps. If we take that bran the present is in fact bran the builder than bran the builder does not yet exist as bran in the present has yet to travel back and stay there. So his quote is factual.

This time travel business is always up for interpretation as time travel is still a theory and not something that is proven. What I'm proposing with my theory is an interpretation of time travel that suggests bran has limited power to manipulate the past events and will eventually be stuck in the past. 

I would end my reasoning by throwing a question out there... Why would the children of the forest create the walkers to then seek to destroy them? Why did they change their minds? What made them decide to back track on this? My answer is bran the builder!

[Pink Fat Rast]

The long night is a thing across both continents mythologies, I don't think it could turn out to just have been a story told by Bran"don"?

That aside this sounds like it COULD be a mindblowing twist, but I'm trying to think what it should look like to be truly mindblowing and satisfying, and justified:

For starters, the idea is that the LN happened, and now it's gonna by LN2 - so what would be the "point" of revealing LN1 never happened? Then LN2 will go from being the 2nd one, to the 1st one? That would've been a more effective twist, had there been no assumption that LN2 is coming and it's only something in the past - then everyone would suddenly go "OH FUCK - it's upon us".

This way however, I'm not even sure what the point would be of that - but it would be neat if like Bran traveled to the past, and then wrote down his "memory" while omitting it was a memory from the future (but it was the past for him) to uphold the time loop - or with the rationale that people would take a concept like "the long night" a bit more seriously if it was described in an unreliable myth as a past event, rather than by an unreliable prophecy about a future event.
For the latter, Brandon wouldn't even have to be Bran - just some group of people who'd go "we must present this as a past myth or else people won't prepare for the '2nd' one".

 

I dunno... unlikely.

[Ser Yorick Ampersand]

If Bran can turn Past Hodor into a halfwit cant he just do the same with the Night King? Problem solved.