If Rhaegar left a will who would have it?

[sweetsunray]

Just now, Universal Sword Donor said:

People were making fires long before Red Rahloo was a twinkle in anyone's eye. Humans definitely had fire on Earth tens or hundreds of thousands of years ago (if not far far far earlier). I imagine that Westeros isn't too different.

Well, Daven Lannister and Addam Marbrand seem to find all those fires in the hills threatening and unusual enough to remark on it to Jaime. Those are Rh'llor fires, and about every dick and tom and mary is helping the BwB who follow Rh'llor per Open Gate Amy.

[Universal Sword Donor]

Fires encircling places people live? Who knows, might be the same rings of fire that Jaime recommends to others to keep the huge packs of wolves at bay. 

Regardless you keep conflating The White Walkers with the Old Gods. There is nothing to connect them except the CotF, maybe. We know that the "old gods" and Rh'llor both exist at the same time. What's three religions when two are "legitimate"? Many westerosi might die, but even if every northerner survives and 50% of the faith worshippers die/convert, then the old god believers will still be outnumber 5:1 or so.

[sweetsunray]

19 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Fires encircling places people live? Who knows, might be the same rings of fire that Jaime recommends to others to keep the huge packs of wolves at bay. 

Regardless you keep conflating The White Walkers with the Old Gods. There is nothing to connect them except the CotF, maybe. We know that the "old gods" and Rh'llor both exist at the same time. What's three religions when two are "legitimate"? Many westerosi might die, but even if every northerner survives and 50% of the faith worshippers die/convert, then the old god believers will still be outnumber 5:1 or so.

No, I don't conflate Others with Old Gods. But I'm pretty sure that Westerosi survivors will see it as connected. You know the usual "man sinned against gods' laws and the gods sent their vengeance" type of thing. There's a difference with what we as readers know, and what Westerosi people make of it.

Really, arguing that those fires in the hills are "common", only serve to keep warm and wolves at a distance, and have nothing to do with Rh'llorr and the BwB is just imo plain ridiculous. We are seeing the impact the witnessing of magical events have on people in Essos and in Westeros, and that impact will increase, and the survivors will tell tales of those wicked men who thought they knew better and could dismiss the gods, old, new and red. And there are plenty of places South where there are still weirwoods, and the greenseers will do stuff there too.

And if the man in question also happens to do something heroic and be known to be resurrected, I doubt anyone will wiggle their finger and say "ah-ah, old gods marriage before a tree doesn't count, because he was already married in a sept. You're still a bastard." 

[Universal Sword Donor]

8 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

No, I don't conflate Others with Old Gods. But I'm pretty sure that Westerosi survivors will see it as connected. You know the usual "man sinned against gods' laws and the gods sent their vengeance" type of thing. There's a difference with what we as readers know, and what Westerosi people make of it.

Really, arguing that those fires in the hills are "common", only serve to keep warm and wolves at a distance, and have nothing to do with Rh'llorr and the BwB is just imo plain ridiculous. We are seeing the impact the witnessing of magical events have on people in Essos and in Westeros, and that impact will increase, and the survivors will tell tales of those wicked men who thought they knew better and could dismiss the gods, old, new and red. And there are plenty of places South where there are still weirwoods, and the greenseers will do stuff there too.

The villages are almost certainly fires to keep the wolves at bay. The ones on high hill clearly aren't. If they have anything to do with the red god, it's because people are helping the BWB and Thoros' group, not directly because they believe in him. The reason the BWB and LS's group is so well received in the RL is because they are working against people demonizing the smallfolk and destroying crops, making it harder and harder for people to survive the winter.

And outside of a few areas, no there really aren't many weirwoods left. Outside of some castles south of the neck, where else do we see them? High heart has stumps. There are "occasional" weirwoods in the nearly completely empty  rainwood. The Isle of Faces is supposed to have some but no one has confirmed.

[sweetsunray]

Just now, Universal Sword Donor said:

The villages are almost certainly fires to keep the wolves at bay. The ones on high hill clearly aren't. If they have anything to do with the red god, it's because people are helping the BWB and Thoros' group, not directly because they believe in him. The reason the BWB and LS's group is so well received in the RL is because they are working against people demonizing the smallfolk and destroying crops, making it harder and harder for people to survive the winter.

And outside of a few areas, no there really aren't many weirwoods left. Outside of some castles south of the neck, where else do we see them? High heart has stumps. There are "occasional" weirwoods in the nearly completely empty  rainwood. The Isle of Faces is supposed to have some but no one has confirmed.

Oldtown, Highgarden (3 entangled), Casterly Rock, .. It's actually surprising how many weirwood heart trees there still are in the godswoods south of the Neck. It's mostly in the RL that the Andals destroyed and killed weirwoods, but hardly beyond that.

Quote

Daven: "My scouts report fires in the high places at night. Signal fires, they think . . . as if there were a ring of watchers all around us. And there are fires in the villages as well. Some new god . . ."

Daven's scouts report "some new god" in relation to the fires in the villages, not the fires of high places, which probably are both signal fires and Rh'llorr fires. You do know that Hollow Hill shelters smallfolk too right? That they have seen Beric being killed and then come back alive. That they see and live with Lady Stoneheart under the hill. 

While those smallfolk are helped and fed they also see things. You can't just dismiss the superstition and magical for only the rational, because it doesn't work that way - not in Westeros.

BTW what happens if the High Sparrow and King's Landing goes up in smoke? They put their last hopes in the Faith for the moment with the High Sparrow. If he goes down, the Faith is pretty much finished, when dragons come, when ice demons come, when victims and heroes are resurrected and fight the undead army, avenge breakig of guest right, and overcome the evil sorcerer Euron.

[Universal Sword Donor]

31 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Oldtown, Highgarden (3 entangled), Casterly Rock, .. It's actually surprising how many weirwood heart trees there still are in the godswoods south of the Neck. It's mostly in the RL that the Andals destroyed and killed weirwoods, but hardly beyond that.

Daven's scouts report "some new god" in relation to the fires in the villages, not the fires of high places, which probably are both signal fires and Rh'llorr fires. You do know that Hollow Hill shelters smallfolk too right? That they have seen Beric being killed and then come back alive. That they see and live with Lady Stoneheart under the hill. 

While those smallfolk are helped and fed they also see things. You can't just dismiss the superstition and magical for only the rational, because it doesn't work that way - not in Westeros.

BTW what happens if the High Sparrow and King's Landing goes up in smoke? They put their last hopes in the Faith for the moment with the High Sparrow. If he goes down, the Faith is pretty much finished, when dragons come, when ice demons come, when victims and heroes are resurrected and fight the undead army, avenge breakig of guest right, and overcome the evil sorcerer Euron.

Yes I specifically asked "outside of some castles". There really aren't any. The rulers kept them in their castles so that they maintained the illusion of respecting the old gods. Hollow hill has, what, a few hundred people (1000 to be generous?). Westeros has 40 million. It's just such an insignificant number of people who might recognize that it's hard to see it making any kind of dent.

If KL and the HS go up in smoke, say due to a huge fit of wildfire (which I think is almost entirely gone), the Faith would almost certainly rally around the starry sept, and the most powerful faction remaining in Westeros, the Tyrells. Even if the Tyrells currently in KL all die, we still have Willas, Garland, and a dozen other prominent, closely related Tyrells willing to take up that mantle. The IB aren't going to kill them all.

[Darth Sidious]

6 hours ago, the tower of albion said:

On the way back to kings landing ready to take charge of the forces that would meet Robert on the trident, if Rhaegar had drawn up a will in case he died (like Rob Stark) legitimizing his unborn child with Lyanna who would he of entrusted it to?

Rhaegar never had the authority to legitimize a bastard.  Rhaegar was never a king.  Rhaegar died before King Aerys II died.  Therefore, even if Aerys had not disinherited Rhaegar in favor of Viserys, he still would never be king.  Rhaegar was never, at any point, a king.  He never had the authority to legitimize a bastard.  Whatever document Rhaegar left behind, it's not worth the paper it is written on.

[Darth Sidious]

5 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

Rhaegar was never ever a king, not even for one second. So he can not legitimize anybody. The only thing he can write is that he acknowledged the unborn child from Lyanna Stark was his bastard. 

Correct. 

[sweetsunray]

6 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Yes I specifically asked "outside of some castles". There really aren't any. The rulers kept them in their castles so that they maintained the illusion of respecting the old gods. Hollow hill has, what, a few hundred people (1000 to be generous?). Westeros has 40 million. It's just such an insignificant number of people who might recognize that it's hard to see it making any kind of dent.

If KL and the HS go up in smoke, say due to a huge fit of wildfire (which I think is almost entirely gone), the Faith would almost certainly rally around the starry sept, and the most powerful faction remaining in Westeros, the Tyrells. Even if the Tyrells currently in KL all die, we still have Willas, Garland, and a dozen other prominent, closely related Tyrells willing to take up that mantle. The IB aren't going to kill them all.

Well, at least you recognize that at present those 1000 in the RL changed religion because of what's been happening there. And that was but the point I needed to make.

I don't see what the end of Tyrells or not has to do with it. A Tyrell who fights Euron and other magical related beings and hears his or her name "sung" by the "three singers" in the godswood could change his or her mind about a religion. They do have Garth the Green as ancestor after all. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

9 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, at least you recognize that at present those 1000 in the RL changed religion because of what's been happening there. And that was but the point I needed to make.

I don't see what the end of Tyrells or not has to do with it. A Tyrell who fights Euron and other magical related beings and hears his or her name "sung" by the "three singers" in the godswood could change his or her mind about a religion. They do have Garth the Green as ancestor after all. 

The 1000 in the RL *might* have. We have yet to see the people in Hollow Hill pray for Rh'llor. For all we know they are there for protection. When the BWB start praying to Red Rahloo before Sandor's trial, none of the smallfolk are mentioned praying and they were mentioned *separately* in the walk into Hollow Hill. I'm sure some of the people pray to Rh'llor but I have yet to see any evidence anyone but the BWB has forsaken the 7 completely. Even then they still let septons walk off without so much as a scolding or lecture on religion and they yield to the wishes of the brothers at the septry when they pray outside. They aren't forcibly converting anyone.

Think about it. The IT is gone. They are the most powerful force remaining in the kingdoms and they have the original seat of the High Septon. They would be come defenders of a faith. A meteor could destroy old town too. At least mine is a logical extrapolation.

[BricksAndSparrows]

From Jamie's last memory of Rhaegar, we get the impression that he planned on removing his father. I'm not saying that it's a certainty, but you can definitely take that from his comment about making changes.

So you can't help but wonder here... (I mean he's trying to bring some type of legendary hero into the world, fulfilling prophecies, possibly removing the king, and all the while, riding off to war against this extremely formidable foe...) Did Rhaegar consider the possibility of his own death? And did he make any effort to see to his plans should he have died?

I'm guessing yes. It makes you wonder if there are a few people left with some insight into his vision.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

The 1000 in the RL *might* have. We have yet to see the people in Hollow Hill pray for Rh'llor. For all we know they are there for protection. When the BWB start praying to Red Rahloo before Sandor's trial, none of the smallfolk are mentioned praying and they were mentioned *separately* in the walk into Hollow Hill. I'm sure some of the people pray to Rh'llor but I have yet to see any evidence anyone but the BWB has forsaken the 7 completely. Even then they still let septons walk off without so much as a scolding or lecture on religion and they yield to the wishes of the brothers at the septry when they pray outside. They aren't forcibly converting anyone.

Think about it. The IT is gone. They are the most powerful force remaining in the kingdoms and they have the original seat of the High Septon. They would be come defenders of a faith. A meteor could destroy old town too. At least mine is a logical extrapolation.

I gave you the quote of Daven: fires in the villages and he begins to say "a new god". The villagers who aren't even living in Hollow Hill are praying for Rh'llorr. Of course the BwB doesn't have to forcibly convert anyone. I never claimed that was necessary. My point is that when people see "miracles" that they will become believers in some magical god or gods, that it happens spontaneously. The Faith offers no answer to magical events.

I don't expect septons of the Faith to change their mind. There's an immense difference between someone who grows up being a Catholic and then convert to another religion but is not clergy than a Catholic Priest becoming a Buddhist.

Euron's going to happen in Oldtown. I'm sure he'll eventually be defeated but not without destroying a lot and making the Citadel archmaesters denying magic and the Faith look like fools first.

[Jaak]

There is no evidence that polygamy ever was legal for Targaryens. Yes, there is the precedent of Maegor the Cruel. But with little precedent value - he had no children by any of these wives, so there was no decision whether they would have been accepted as trueborn or as bastards by his successors, and no decision as to whether the women had ever been his wives. Actually, Jaehaerys did not respect Maegor´s will either - Rhalla was the rightful heiress by both law and Maegor´s will but Jaehaerys usurped her anyway.

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I gave you the quote of Daven: fires in the villages and he begins to say "a new god". The villagers who aren't even living in Hollow Hill are praying for Rh'llorr. Of course the BwB doesn't have to forcibly convert anyone. I never claimed that was necessary. My point is that when people see "miracles" that they will become believers in some magical god or gods, that it happens spontaneously. The Faith offers no answer to magical events.

I don't expect septons of the Faith to change their mind. There's an immense difference between someone who grows up being a Catholic and then convert to another religion but is not clergy than a Catholic Priest becoming a Buddhist.

Euron's going to happen in Oldtown. I'm sure he'll eventually be defeated but not without destroying a lot and making the Citadel archmaesters denying magic and the Faith look like fools first.

Yes they mention a new god. Do they worship a new god? We have no idea. The people living *with* the BWB don't worship Rh'llor as far as we know. Some people will see miracles and convert. Jesus was ostensibly resurrected and was in or around Jerusalem for over a month, and Christianity only achieved any kind of significant numbers in the city when they conquered it during the first crusades. Instead of going Christian, it remained heavily Jewish and pagan (and eventually Islamic) for the next thousand years. Miracles can get a small portion to believe, but forcible conversion/conquering has typically been the most effective way to convert people (Islam/Christianity). Conquering and absorbing religions (Buddhism) isn't a terrible option either, but even that is relatively limited to one (albeit large) subcontinent. 

Euron's going to try Oldtown. I doubt that Euron will be the one to bend people to his will. I see it happening more as Aegon's conquest with the Starry Sept and Oldtown/Citadel kneeling at the last so she can go forth and fight the WW. 

2 hours ago, Jaak said:

There is no evidence that polygamy ever was legal for Targaryens. Yes, there is the precedent of Maegor the Cruel. But with little precedent value - he had no children by any of these wives, so there was no decision whether they would have been accepted as trueborn or as bastards by his successors, and no decision as to whether the women had ever been his wives. Actually, Jaehaerys did not respect Maegor´s will either - Rhalla was the rightful heiress by both law and Maegor´s will but Jaehaerys usurped her anyway.

Maegor and Aegon, but yes it's definitely a gray area.

[sweetsunray]

27 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Yes they mention a new god. Do they worship a new god? We have no idea. The people living *with* the BWB don't worship Rh'llor as far as we know.

The fires and "a new god" indicates yes they do. And I'm pretty sure those in Hollow Hill do as well. It's obvious we're not going to agree, just so you can keep on believing that George will write someone saying "Euhm, but polygamy's not legit in the eyes of the Faith." And based on the Aeron chapter of tWoW, Euron doesn't seem to be the guy who "tries". He scares the bejeebus out of me.

[King Ned Stark]

To answer the OP, it is possible, and it's possible it is in Lyanna's tomb, among other possibilities.  There is precedence of a Tatgaryen prince taking a second wife; Maegor.  He was exiled but his older half-brother until said brother died and he took the throne.  Aerys didn't have the leverage at the time to exile Rhaeger, we all know the Crown Prince stayed away for quite some time while the realm burned, and it took Ser Geeold Hightower, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, to go to Rhaegar before he would return for his duties.  And Gerold stayed behind.  What was so important that Rhaegar refused to come back unless Gerold came to him?  Was it a will, legitimized by Aerys?

[purple-eyes]

29 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

To answer the OP, it is possible, and it's possible it is in Lyanna's tomb, among other possibilities.  There is precedence of a Tatgaryen prince taking a second wife; Maegor.  He was exiled but his older half-brother until said brother died and he took the throne.  Aerys didn't have the leverage at the time to exile Rhaeger, we all know the Crown Prince stayed away for quite some time while the realm burned, and it took Ser Geeold Hightower, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, to go to Rhaegar before he would return for his duties.  And Gerold stayed behind.  What was so important that Rhaegar refused to come back unless Gerold came to him?  Was it a will, legitimized by Aerys?

I do not think king's decrees or wills were the important things which stopped Rhaegar from returning to his duties. Lyanna's legs probably were. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The fires and "a new god" indicates yes they do. And I'm pretty sure those in Hollow Hill do as well. It's obvious we're not going to agree, just so you can keep on believing that George will write someone saying "Euhm, but polygamy's not legit in the eyes of the Faith." And based on the Aeron chapter of tWoW, Euron doesn't seem to be the guy who "tries". He scares the bejeebus out of me.

You are correct Euron doesn't seem to be the guy who tries, but his religion has little and less to do with it. Since you read the Aeron chapter, you know why.

As to the fire and "new god" reference, you can keep giving them to me. Why would villages keep many fires going? Well other than the giant packs of wolves in the Riverlands who don't like fire, there are tons of refugees and it's freezing outside, as seen in the Jaime chapter where it starts snowing and the chapter where Raventree is nothing but frozen mud and dead crops.

There is a ton of uncertainty there. This isn't like assuming Cersei was going to kill Stannis and Renly with later confirmation from her POV. We know that the BWB has widespread support in the RL. We have heard rumors from scouts and seen fires in cold weather and dangerous areas filled with refugees. Let's wait till we see before we say we "know" especially when we see hundreds of smallfolk *not* praying in the HQ of the BWB with a Red Priest leading the prayer in a life or death matter to Rh'llor.

[sweetsunray]

8 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

You are correct Euron doesn't seem to be the guy who tries, but his religion has little and less to do with it. Since you read the Aeron chapter, you know why.

This is a strawman argument. You know very well what my original point was - that when faced with magical events and having survived it with magical means people won't say the rules of the Faith will supercede rituals of another magically related religion. There will be converts to one of those magically related religions, and those who don't will not dismiss the others so easily. The fact that the BwB has widespread support in the RL is one of those examples of at least the tolerance to a new magical religion. And this happens in an area where the magically resurrected person is an underground figure. And there are converts, we've seen at least one - Gendry.

I was always talking about witnessing magic (for the good or the bad) and that only those who use magic as well (such as resurrected people) makes magic a reality and how paper rules of a non magical faith will be ridiculous against it.

Let's just for a moment imagine there is a Great Council. There sits a Targ who birthed dragons from petrified eggs and sat on a funeral pyre and survived it. Then there sits Jon with Ghost, a man who was stabbed several times and was resurrected and used his undeadness and some magical sword to help defeat an army of wights and ice demons. Throw in a Hightower who worked magic, and Marwyn or Sam Tarly, and a Tully who saw his dead sister as a living corpse, and a crippled Bran who is a greenseer, and some legitimized bastard, ...Out comes a geneology book with Rhaegar's writing and LC Hightower's signature and then some septon who's been hiding somewhere under a rock and never saw Euron and his ship of doom nor an army of the dead according to you would say, "Well, but the Faith..." It's GRRM not Prachett (and I love Pratchett for doing such things). Heck even if Jon dies again they will want to make him trueborn posthumously if given the chance.