fire&blood

Robb & Jeyne vs. Robb & Talisa

49 posts in this topic

There are a ton of differences between the books and the show, but the one that bothered me a lot was Robb and Talisa.  In the books, Robb marrying Jeyne made sense to me.  He is the son of the honorable Eddard Stark.  He was injured and vulnerable over the death of his father & brothers and Jeyne "comforted" him. He chose the honorable path by marrying the Lady Jeyne instead of deflowering her and abandoning her. She was from a noble house that served for House Lannister - this marriage garnered him an alliance with House Westerling (although we all know House Frey brought more manpower). He may have been the king who lost the north, but this explanation makes sense considering how he was raised. He wouldn't be the type of man to take a woman's maidenhood (especially one from a noble house) and not marry her. 

But Robb marrying Talisa because she was hot and he fell in love so he forsake his vow is NOT Robb's way. He broke his vow to House Frey for an attractive woman, nothing else.  We are to believe that Robb would make himself an oathbreaker who would forsake duty and honor for a piece of ass? C'mon! This was the biggest fail D&D made and I bet GRRM wasn't happy about it. When House Glover refused to help Jon and Sansa he was absolutely right, so why would the Northerners rally for House Stark again in the show? They know that the Red Wedding was due to Robb Stark's choice to marry a foreign woman he hardly knew over keeping faith with House Frey.  Thoughts? 

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Yeah you're right. I had a lot more sympathy for Robb in the books than in the show, though either way Walder's response was disproportionate.

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Yep, marrying Jeyne would have felt like a duty to Robb and the Frey vow was probably at the back of his mind at the time, especially being so young in the books. His head should have been in the right place in the show however when concerning Talisa, he just stomped on his vow with the Freys and didn't seem to really care. Which is way out of character for Robb in my opinion.

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I remember what annoyed me was Talisa as a character, not Robb's choice to marry her. Jeyne and Talisa are really different. Talisa is a mature woman who knows what she wants. Why does she fall in love with Robb? Just to be queen? She's out of character.

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Yeah, talisa really does not make sense, a noble lady from volantis, working with the silent sisters? what the fuck?!

but it was a price to be paid for making robb older, his marriage with jeyne was a product of his age and recklessness, to a older robb to make a similar mistake, they had no choice other than making him a douche and idiot.

at least jeyne gave robb a "foothold" in the westerlands and made the lannisters look somehow weak since a bannerman has betrayed them,(but no matter what, it was a big mistake_), and if robb had managed to win the war, a marriage with a western noble lady would make the relationship with the westernlands easier, even if the freys stayed angry with him, riverrun would keep them in check.

 

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I'm guessing that the Producers were worried that bringing in Jeyne would have required far more charachters and explanation that the gal from out of town. It was a budget thing, I'm guess. Look at Jorah. He has basically become Selmy and Connington on top of his own character.

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I didn't understand or like Talisa's character either.  He meets a foreign woman working alongside the Silent Sisters and instead of being silent she spoke her mind and that's it?! Robb is in love, married and doomed? That's really all it took to bring down the King in the North?? It was infuriating.  And honestly, did they really need to make the Red Wedding more gruesome than it was in the books?  Adding a pregnant Talisa in the mix getting stabbed to death was extra and unnecessary.  There are many reasons for Robb marrying Jeyne instead of a Frey: 1) It would dishonor Jeyne if he sleeps with her and doesn't marry her, 2) Robb is all about honor especially during this time where he just learned of his father dying (as a dishonorable traitor which also dishonored House Stark) and his little brothers, 3) her house is an ancient and proud one that he would not want to shame and make an enemy out of especially since Tywin is their liege lord, 4) they're sworn to House Lannister so it weakens them even more to lose a bannerman to the enemy and 5) this alliance with a Western house gave him a foothold in the West (regardless of how small their house was). Yet, what does Talisa bring to the table? other than her being pretty and talking back to a King, nothing!  She's foreign, she doesn't come with an army or an alliance to strengthen his position or help him win the war, she may be a noble woman but she left her family and country because she opposed slavery so she isn't rich (aside from being rich with principals)....all she did was kill him, his men and herself in the process and made Robb look like an utter fool. 

Edited by fire&blood

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I agree that the show simplified the story line for sake of easier storytelling. The politics of the marriage would have taken quite a bit of exposition, introduced characters that ultimately went nowhere, and ended up at the exact same Red Wedding. They kind of make up for the book's intrigue by making Talisa pregnant, which adds a political dimension.

 

Really There was just no need to pull in more plot detail, especially knowing that Robb's arc ends quite abruptly. 

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Talisa was just a bafflingly anachronistic character. What with her sassing a King about war and wandering a war-torn Westeros without guards. Such a painfully obvious character tool who ceased to have any personality once she married Robb. It also made Robb look incredibly selfish, even more foolish and kind of an arsehole. Just all round poorly-written really.

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Agreed.  In the books he was in a lose-lose situation.  He was going to insult a house no matter what he did, but being what..15? He let Lil' Robb pick which house and ...

chose poorly. 

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Well, TV requires blunter instruments than books. 

Though I don't see why book Robb gets more sympathy. Robb's bedding and wedding of Jeyne is utterly idiotic, and it's the single event that makes clear he is still a boy unfit to rule (as if seeing him almost exclusively through his mother's POV weren't clue enough). If anything, the political situation in the book make Robb's actions even dumber. She's a Lannister ally! Instead of being decisively rid of her, despite the deflowering, he dresses impulsiveness and hubris up in honor's clothes.

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Was Robb virgin when he "deflowered" Jeyne? Maybe, more than being honorable, he fell in love and was flabbergasted by sex. On my two reads I payed attention to Robb in those POVs and he never struck me as a guy being honorable, but following his cock, although trying to make it look he was being honorable. But that's just me. Jeyne's fragile and apparently timid personality just makes a lot of noise to me.

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* Took a chill pill and now I'm deleting original post, which asked to move topic to GoT section.

Edited by Blackfyre Bastard
Topic got moved to GoT Show section

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I also think Jon played a part in Robb's decision. I think Robb knew that Jon hated his bastard status and so was reluctant to risk a child that would be a bastard.

Obviously, whether books or show Robb's decision was very stupid. Book Robb was tragically stupid whereas TV Robb was selfishly stupid.

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So I'm obviously in the minority but I actually like the way the show did it better than books. Yeah the show simplified it drastically (which was kinda needed for a show). But I actually liked the fact that Robb actually fell in love as opposed to marrying someone just on the chance that  she got pregnant. Considering the politics of it both were stupid decisions but To me Jeyne was worse. I hated it!! I'll admit that the Jeyne thing happening off page doesn't help but I think I would hate the reason for the decision regardless

Edited by Maxxine

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Regardless of this topic not really belonging on the book-only section.. I think the showrunners wanted Robb to fall in love because it's what people want to see on their screen, romance not political marriage. Besides that Talisa was a ridiculously stupid and poorly written character as others have pointed out. Also her being "not like other girls" who go to silly parties is another thing I hated about her.

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For me, the show remarked Robbs stupidness. He broke the deal with lord Frey and married a foreign woman (I don't think it was ever established if she belonged to nobility), thus killing all common sense. Seeing Robb marrying Talissa out of love is like falling into the producers trap (when they still were good at making episodes). They are writing in capital letters that Robb was stupid; I do think the producers are of that opinion, after reading the books. Of course, throw in some loving and nudes in there and you got a pretty good script. 

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Yeah, this is a huge difference. The whole story about Jayne's comforting sounded like a plot of Westerlings, the bannermen of Lannisters to ruin Stark/Fray fragile alliance. Robb is 15 y.o. in the books and it's clear his mind was overrun by emotions and hormons after having first sex. Robb is Ned's son and he did what his father would do, in his opinion. But the situation was set up, I'm sure. 

IThe show's Robb is much older it would be unlikely for him to fell for literally the first girl he met and mess up everything. But still I find  Talyssa's character poor written and sexist. Such a  hero guy as Robb couldn't fall for an traditional feminine Jayne, but only for someone "special". And of course a special girl should be "not like other girls" and hate their "girly stuff". This is just clichee and misogyny. Meeeeh

Edited by Ashes Of Westeros

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14 hours ago, Blackfyre Bastard said:

Who the hell is Talisa???!!!!!

At which chapter is she mentioned? Of what book?

Take this argument to the HBO show section.

Slow your roll man, it's a comparison between book AND show (the subject line might be a clue). 

Not sure why it's more appropriate for thistle be I general(show) instead of general(books).   But oh well.  :dunno:

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2 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

 

IThe show's Robb is much older it would be unlikely for him to fell for literally the first girl he met and mess up everything. But still I find  Talyssa's character poor written and sexist. Such a  hero guy as Robb couldn't fall for an traditional feminine Jayne, but only for someone "special". And of course a special girl should be "not like other girls" and hate their "girly stuff". This is just clichee and misogyny. Meeeeh

I agree. A "special" indipendent woman who fall in love with a beautiful king lacking in personality and then sacrifice her indipendence for love.

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