fire&blood

Robb & Jeyne vs. Robb & Talisa

49 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

The show's Robb is much older it would be unlikely for him to fell for literally the first girl he met and mess up everything. But still I find  Talyssa's character poor written and sexist. Such a  hero guy as Robb couldn't fall for an traditional feminine Jayne, but only for someone "special". And of course a special girl should be "not like other girls" and hate their "girly stuff". This is just clichee and misogyny. Meeeeh

Oh God yes. I forgot how much I hated that as well. I think the show has a lot of trouble writing strong women who aren't fighters, evil or sassy.

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22 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

I think the show has a lot of trouble writing strong women who aren't fighters, evil or sassy.

:agree::agree::agree: I think it's a general problem of TV/movies, because emotional strength isn't easy portrayed on a screen. But if you add a couple of dragons or ninja skills it makes things much easier. I don't mind heroins being fighters or sassy and demanding if they are written like this (Arya, Dany, Brienne).  But rewriting others heroins (like Sansa or Jayne/Talissa) so they would fit in this "badass" (how I hate this word) image is just lame.

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19 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

Oh God yes. I forgot how much I hated that as well. I think the show has a lot of trouble writing strong women who aren't fighters, evil or sassy.

Amen to this. A LOT of trouble. So they either ignore or transform them.

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On 9/7/2016 at 6:58 AM, Ashes Of Westeros said:

Yeah, this is a huge difference. The whole story about Jayne's comforting sounded like a plot of Westerlings, the bannermen of Lannisters to ruin Stark/Fray fragile alliance. Robb is 15 y.o. in the books and it's clear his mind was overrun by emotions and hormons after having first sex. Robb is Ned's son and he did what his father would do, in his opinion. But the situation was set up, I'm sure. 

IThe show's Robb is much older it would be unlikely for him to fell for literally the first girl he met and mess up everything. But still I find  Talyssa's character poor written and sexist. Such a  hero guy as Robb couldn't fall for an traditional feminine Jayne, but only for someone "special". And of course a special girl should be "not like other girls" and hate their "girly stuff". This is just clichee and misogyny. Meeeeh

Regarding your first paragraph:  My understanding is that there's a fairly widespread belief that in fact it WAS a "set up" or plot by the Lannisters to cross off Robb Stark, using their bannermen (Westerlings).

Specifically, as I understand it, Sybell Westerling (Jeyne's mother) is the granddaughter of Maggy the Frog (!!!), a witch.  Sybell mixes some potions or the like in the books, and there is reason to believe she (Sybell) gave Robb a love potion that made him fall in love with Jeyne.

If this is true, it is relevant to many comments in this thread.  Robb is fairly heavily criticized for what many people believe to have been his lustful stupidity and/or even an overblown sense of honor, but actually in my opinion, it seems quite likely that he was under the influence of magic the whole time (the love potion), and thus was not truly responsible for what he did..

As I recall, the theories go even deeper than this, though, relating also to information about the fertility potion Sybell was supposedly giving to Jeyne, and/or a moon tea potion she was allegedly giving Jeyne. (Yes, I understand "fertility potion" and "moon tea" superficially seem contrary to each other, but that's the very point, and part of what makes some people convinced it was all a Lannister plot.  As I recall, Sybell claimed she was giving Jeyne the fertility potion, but later, when Jaime is there, as I recall, Sybell tells Jaime it was moon tea, which would be consistent with a Lannister desire that Robb NOT have an heir, with a conclusion is that the Lannisters and Westerlings were in cahoots all along.

Having said all that, there's even more, relating to beliefs that Jeyne was switched out for her sister before Jaime arrived.   This theory would hold, I believe that Jeyne actually WAS pregnant, and the Westerlings switched her with her sister so Jaime wouldn't know Jeyne was pregnant.  This theory is also based in part on different descriptions of "Jeyne" given by Cat and Jaime.  Cat says something like Jeyne has good, broad child bearing hips, but later Jaime, for some (otherwise bizarre) reason, says something like Jeyne has slender hips.  Some people believe this is a clue that the girl Jaime sees is NOT Jeyne at all, but her sister, I think her name is Eleyna. 

Edited by Cron

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5 hours ago, Cron said:

Regarding your first paragraph:  My understanding is that there's a fairly widespread belief that in fact it WAS a "set up" or plot by the Lannisters to cross off Robb Stark, using their bannermen (Westerlings).

I see your points, but I'm still not convinced that Westerlings showed Jaime the wrong girl. It could be just an inconsistency. And it doesn't make much sense to me to introduce introduce Jayne and Robb's child storyline in the story now. It would take more than a decade for Robb's kid to grow up and avenge his father/rule Winterfell whatever.

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1 hour ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

I see your points, but I'm still not convinced that Westerlings showed Jaime the wrong girl. It could be just an inconsistency. And it doesn't make much sense to me to introduce introduce Jayne and Robb's child storyline in the story now. It would take more than a decade for Robb's kid to grow up and avenge his father/rule Winterfell whatever.

Interesting points, and bear in mind I'm just saying this stuff is theory, not confirmed facts, BUT...

(1)   Jaime's "hip comment" seems odd to me.   Cat, a woman and mother, notices Jeyne's  hips, and that is not surprising to me, but...Jaime???  He is a man and a father, quite frankly I don't think men are anywhere near as likely to be thinking about the width or narrowness of a woman's hips as women are. Add to this the fact that I strongly believe Jaime wasn't attracted to her, cuz Jaime isn' like that, he's not really attracted to ANY woman besides Cersei (and maybe Brienne), and he's never had sex with any woman except Cersei, even though Jaime must have had hundreds (if not thousands) of opportunities during his life.   So why on Earth is Jaime thinknig about Jeyne's hips, of all things???  I believe it was put in there as a clue, that this girl is not Jeyne Westerling.

(2)  The strangely inconsistent information about what potion(s) Sybella was giving Jeyne could be explained by this.  I believe this theory would reconcile it all:  (a) Originally, it was all a Lannister plot to eliminate Robb, (b) initially, Sybell went along with it, (c) Sybell gave Robb a love potion, (d) but most unexpectedly to Sybell, Jeyne fell madly in love with ROBB, too, putting Sybell in a very bad position, (e) Sybell then double crossed the Lannisters merely b/c of love for her daughter, and the potions really WERE fertility drink, (f) Jeyne then DID get pregnant, and at this point Sybell is praying Robb wins the war, (g) but Robb then dies at the Red Wedding, so (h) Sybell then has to cover up what happened, cuz here comes Jaime Lannister, so Sybell hides pregnant Jeye, replaces her with Eleyna, and LIES to Jaime, giving him false assurances that this is Jeyne and she is NOT pregnant, and also lying to Jaime by claiming she was giving Jeyne moon tea.

Some people have argued against similar theories by claiming things like "well, ALL the Westerlings would have to have been in on this, cuz they know the difference between Jeyne and Eleyna."  My response:  Well, YEAH, it would require complicity from more people than just Sybell, Eleyna and Jeyne, that's true,  and under this theory, there were others involved, at least the ones who would have had to play a role, such as interacting with Jaime, but that's not really very many people anyway.  In any event, it's easy to assume the Westerlings are more loyal to Jeyne than the Lannisters.

Note also that this wouldn't even be the first time GRRM pulled something like this, switching one person for another. Indeed, by my count it would be one of at least THREE times we've been told one person was switched for another (Jeyne Poole/Arya, and the baby Aegon/Young Griff.  Note that whether it's true Young Griff is Aegon or not, GRRM indisputably has multiple characters claiming it's true, so that's what we are "told")

(3) Regarding whether there's any point to Jeyne being pregnant, given how long it would take the child to grow up and be a factor:

I've heard this point raised before, too.  My response:

Do you remember the "five year gap"?  Remember, a lot of stuff was mapped out VERY early on in GRRM's book writing, and there was supposed to be a five year gap at some point for the express purpose of characters aging up (GRRM later scrapped this).  This could mean that when these things were plotted by GRRM (AND when ASOS was written), there would have been time for Robb's child to age up enough to be a character, b/c of the five year gap.  The child might be six or seven years old by then, and that might not seem very significant, but in ASOIAF, such a character could play a role, even being a POV character while only being, perhaps, a couple years younger than Bran when he got his first POV chapter (the first chapter of AGOT after the prologue, as I recall)

In addition to the "five year gap" stuff, it's also possible GRRM intended the child's story to play out in an even later book, and it's also possible that GRRM never specifically intended that child's story to go anywhere else, but rather, wrapped up the story of Robb's personal life on the sweet note that even though Robb met a tragic end, his legacy and blood line lives on in the child.

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@Cron I agree, there're interesting points. And at the moment we don't have enough information. Jayne's hips could indicate something but could also be a red herring. Jaime met Jayne as she was in mouring for months, possibly she lost appetite and lost some weight.

The information about potions is indeed incosistent. And we don't have much evidence of how effective they could be. Moon tea is used by different characters in the books, so I assume it is effective if taken early. As for love potion...

Spoiler

In "The Sworn Sword" mentioned that once Egg's sister Rhae slipped a love potion into his drink so that he would marry her and not their sister Daella. But apparently it didn't worked, Egg married Betha Blackwood eventually.

Besides that I don't remember any other text evidence.

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Well, we see jayne by the eyes of catelyn and then jaime, a woman and a man, catelyn being the mother of 5 children. she knows what good child bearing hips look like, to me, jaime notions of good hips is in a more sexual manner, and since his only woman was cersei, who is very voluptuous, he is not  a realiable narrator in this specific matter.

Edited by BlueNightzx

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Talisa is clearly anachronistic and designed to be a character "worthy" of Robb. I am unconvinced as to how successful that attempt was. I was also distracted by her presence at the Red Wedding. 

Think about it - let's say you cheated on your girlfriend with someone else. Then a few months later your now-ex calls and says she wants to clear the air. But when you go to meet her, you bring your new girlfriend - the person you cheated on your ex with. Put in a modern context like that, this is more than just a social faux par - it's blatant idiocy.

So on the same principle, why would Robb take Talisa to a wedding designed to apologize to the Freys for marrying Talisa in the first place? It makes no goddam sense. In the context of the show it's so the audience can get the money shot of Talisa being stabbed and then a wounded Robb cradling her body, but for the character it makes no sense at all.

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1 hour ago, Ashes Of Westeros said:

@Cron I agree, there're interesting points. And at the moment we don't have enough information. Jayne's hips could indicate something but could also be a red herring. Jaime met Jayne as she was in mouring for months, possibly she lost appetite and lost some weight.

The information about potions is indeed incosistent. And we don't have much evidence of how effective they could be. Moon tea is used by different characters in the books, so I assume it is effective if taken early. As for love potion...

  Reveal hidden contents

In "The Sworn Sword" mentioned that once Egg's sister Rhae slipped a love potion into his drink so that he would marry her and not their sister Daella. But apparently it didn't worked, Egg married Betha Blackwood eventually.

Besides that I don't remember any other text evidence.

Could be a red herring, you're right about that, GRRM can be quite unpredictable.

Being in mourning could have affected Jeyne's weight, but my understanding is that for child bearing purposes, this "hip" issue is MUCH more a question of bone structure which would not change even if Jeyne lost a lot of weight.

And yes, I agree, I'm not aware of any direct evidence of the "love potion" theory, but rather, it is a "circumstantial evidence" case, built from (a) the fact that Sybella is the granddaughter of Maggy the Frog, a known witch, (b) Sybella seems to have knowledge of potions, (c) Westerlings are Lannister bannermen, (d) Sybella outwardly seems complicit with the Lannisters when Jaime visits, even including claiming she gave Jeyne moon tea to prevent pregnancy, (e) Robb's behavior is otherwise arguably somewhat inexplicable, and (f) the whole series of events leads to Robb's ruination, which, of course, is something the Lannisters would have very much desired.

Circumstantial evidence, yes, and just a theory, to be sure, but all the puzzle pieces seem to fit.

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3 hours ago, TheCasualObserver said:

Talisa is clearly anachronistic and designed to be a character "worthy" of Robb. I am unconvinced as to how successful that attempt was. I was also distracted by her presence at the Red Wedding. 

Think about it - let's say you cheated on your girlfriend with someone else. Then a few months later your now-ex calls and says she wants to clear the air. But when you go to meet her, you bring your new girlfriend - the person you cheated on your ex with. Put in a modern context like that, this is more than just a social faux par - it's blatant idiocy.

So on the same principle, why would Robb take Talisa to a wedding designed to apologize to the Freys for marrying Talisa in the first place? It makes no goddam sense. In the context of the show it's so the audience can get the money shot of Talisa being stabbed and then a wounded Robb cradling her body, but for the character it makes no sense at all.

YES! Thank you. It was such a ridiculous decision on the show's part. She even tells Robb not to kiss her because it would offend them?! YOUR PRESENCE IS ALREADY OFFENSIVE. Her existence is offensive honestly. I was really annoyed that she was at the Red Wedding....stabbing a pregnant woman was already extra.  The RW is by far the most gruesome thing done on the show so far. They didn't need to go there.  And secretly, I was hoping that if she weren't there it meant that Jeyne is alive and pregnant with Robb's baby in Riverrun in the books.  When the show killed her off it made me wonder where the books will go with Jeyne's character and all that "fertility tea" talk. 

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12 hours ago, Cron said:

Regarding your first paragraph:  My understanding is that there's a fairly widespread belief that in fact it WAS a "set up" or plot by the Lannisters to cross off Robb Stark, using their bannermen (Westerlings).

Specifically, as I understand it, Sybell Westerling (Jeyne's mother) is the granddaughter of Maggy the Frog (!!!), a witch.  Sybell mixes some potions or the like in the books, and there is reason to believe she (Sybell) gave Robb a love potion that made him fall in love with Jeyne.

If this is true, it is relevant to many comments in this thread.  Robb is fairly heavily criticized for what many people believe to have been his lustful stupidity and/or even an overblown sense of honor, but actually in my opinion, it seems quite likely that he was under the influence of magic the whole time (the love potion), and thus was not truly responsible for what he did..

As I recall, the theories go even deeper than this, though, relating also to information about the fertility potion Sybell was supposedly giving to Jeyne, and/or a moon tea potion she was allegedly giving Jeyne. (Yes, I understand "fertility potion" and "moon tea" superficially seem contrary to each other, but that's the very point, and part of what makes some people convinced it was all a Lannister plot.  As I recall, Sybell claimed she was giving Jeyne the fertility potion, but later, when Jaime is there, as I recall, Sybell tells Jaime it was moon tea, which would be consistent with a Lannister desire that Robb NOT have an heir, with a conclusion is that the Lannisters and Westerlings were in cahoots all along.

Having said all that, there's even more, relating to beliefs that Jeyne was switched out for her sister before Jaime arrived.   This theory would hold, I believe that Jeyne actually WAS pregnant, and the Westerlings switched her with her sister so Jaime wouldn't know Jeyne was pregnant.  This theory is also based in part on different descriptions of "Jeyne" given by Cat and Jaime.  Cat says something like Jeyne has good, broad child bearing hips, but later Jaime, for some (otherwise bizarre) reason, says something like Jeyne has slender hips.  Some people believe this is a clue that the girl Jaime sees is NOT Jeyne at all, but her sister, I think her name is Eleyna. 

Interesting! I'll need to give it a 3rd read :) Thanks! 

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On 9/6/2016 at 4:15 PM, Blackfyre Bastard said:

* Took a chill pill and now I'm deleting original post, which asked to move topic to GoT section.

Sorry as this was my 2nd post on this forum.  Didn't know where to put a topic that asks to distinguish both books and the show. 

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On 9/7/2016 at 3:27 AM, King Merrett I Frey said:

For me, the show remarked Robbs stupidness. He broke the deal with lord Frey and married a foreign woman (I don't think it was ever established if she belonged to nobility), thus killing all common sense. Seeing Robb marrying Talissa out of love is like falling into the producers trap (when they still were good at making episodes). They are writing in capital letters that Robb was stupid; I do think the producers are of that opinion, after reading the books. Of course, throw in some loving and nudes in there and you got a pretty good script. 

I'm guessing she was a noble lady in Volantis since she gives the whole story about her brother drowning and a slave saving him.  How the slave even putting his hands on him would have been a brutal death or something to that effect for the slave.  This is where her opposition for slavery came from.  

What is interesting that I just discovered today glancing through the Appendix in ADWD is on the show Cat asks Talisa her last name and she says "Maegyr", and Cat apologizes for not having heard of it. She says it's an old name in Volantis.  Check out the Appendix in ADWD.  The "In Old Volantis" section.  Malaquo Maegyr is one of the Triarch's of Volantis...a tiger.  An issue that didn't need delving into but I happened to notice it today checking out some other family tree. Random :)

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11 minutes ago, fire&blood said:

I'm guessing she was a noble lady in Volantis since she gives the whole story about her brother drowning and a slave saving him.  How the slave even putting his hands on him would have been a brutal death or something to that effect for the slave.  This is where her opposition for slavery came from.  

What is interesting that I just discovered today glancing through the Appendix in ADWD is on the show Cat asks Talisa her last name and she says "Maegyr", and Cat apologizes for not having heard of it. She says it's an old name in Volantis.  Check out the Appendix in ADWD.  The "In Old Volantis" section.  Malaquo Maegyr is one of the Triarch's of Volantis...a tiger.  An issue that didn't need delving into but I happened to notice it today checking out some other family tree. Random :)

Not that random actually. The episode script was supervised or co-written by George himself. He is very fond of burying easter eggs everywhere he goes, that little beautiful rat. Because after the deaths of Cat, Robb and Talissa, the latter being a Maegyr has no real importance but for careful book readers. :P

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I think the general idea behind Talisa was good; create a romance arc more appropriate for the older Robb of the show, with a clear cut romantic arc to follow so the less cynical audience members don't immediately register the marriage as a red flag in Game of Thrones. In the books, Robb and Jeyne's relationship is clearly a horrible decision from the word "go", in part because we have Catelyn's POV the entire time, and also because the entire scenario is clearly a teenagers well-intentioned but poorly thought out response to a one night stand that may also be the end of his virginity. The show features a Robb who probably wouldn't be quite that impulsive, not just because of his age, but also because of the expectations you'd have both in-world and out for his character type.

Show!Robb is more of a stereotypical "The Hero" played straight, while Book!Robb has some strong deconstructive elements from early on thanks to his age and Catelyn's POV. As such, the audience is more inclined to believe that Show!Robb isn't a virgin, both because of the (somewhat sexist) expectation that a young adult male lead in a TV Show simply can't be one, and because after the show has established how losing virginity is seen as a rite-of-passage in universe, one that Jon declined, the chances of Show!Robb following Jon's example seem very small. So giving Robb a long developing emotional attraction to his romantic partner fits in more with the character portrayal, as well as fitting into the archetypal "marry for Love" trope the show wanted to deconstruct. "The Hero" is generally wise enough to avoid marrying the first person they sleep with when that's a bad idea, but he's expected to "righteously" reject an arranged marriage.

Having said all that... There were clearly some out of place decisions made about constructing Talisa. She does seem anachronistic on one hand and predictably faux-tomboy on the other. There may very well have been a missed opportunity to exploit Book!Jeyne's political context for some serious drama. Just imagine the issues Show!Robb would have courting a Jeyne Westerling in terms of power-dynamics and family antagonism. It might have been more engaging to tackle the moral questions of that situation and still follow the plan that D&D planned out. 

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The Talisa never bothered me because from the minute it was clear to me see was the Jenye stand in I knew she was dying at the RW

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GRRM said he didn't write the Talisa scene in his episode, and he doesn't supervise writing the scripts. He has often said they can write whatever they want. He reviews the outlines every season and gives them notes, but in this case, he said please don't call her Jeyne.

He talks about it here at about 55:00:

Quote

"It is a completely different character. So that's not even two different versions of the same character, it's a different character in a different storyline there... They could have shown the events as they happened in the book, but for whatever reason they came up with a different thread and changed the character of Jeyne Westerling significantly. It was actually my suggestion that they change her name... Jeyne is not a Volantine name. If we are going to have a different character, we should have a different name. Otherwise people are going to get really confused here."

http://talkingtvwithryanandryan.libsyn.com/webpage/talking-tv-with-ryan-and-ryan-episode-12-talking-power-magic-and-storytelling-with-george-r-r-martin

Edited by Le Cygne

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5 hours ago, TheCasualObserver said:

Talisa is clearly anachronistic and designed to be a character "worthy" of Robb. I am unconvinced as to how successful that attempt was. I was also distracted by her presence at the Red Wedding. 

Think about it - let's say you cheated on your girlfriend with someone else. Then a few months later your now-ex calls and says she wants to clear the air. But when you go to meet her, you bring your new girlfriend - the person you cheated on your ex with. Put in a modern context like that, this is more than just a social faux par - it's blatant idiocy.

So on the same principle, why would Robb take Talisa to a wedding designed to apologize to the Freys for marrying Talisa in the first place? It makes no goddam sense. In the context of the show it's so the audience can get the money shot of Talisa being stabbed and then a wounded Robb cradling her body, but for the character it makes no sense at all.

Indeed. No damn sense at all. If they wanted to kill off Talisa, she could have been nearby waiting for him, and killed that way. When they both knew it was over, he could have called out for her, and she could have called out for him. Something.

Edited by Le Cygne

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