fire&blood

Robb & Jeyne vs. Robb & Talisa

49 posts in this topic

3 hours ago, fire&blood said:

Interesting! I'll need to give it a 3rd read :) Thanks! 

Yeah, sure.

Hope I got all that right, pretty sure I did, but it's been about 5 years since I read the books myself.

Next time I read them, whenever that may be, I'm sure I'll be watching carefully for a lot of stuff on a lot of topics.

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Yes,  in the book Robb's marriage is more understandable than the show's marriage. I do think Talisa was out of place. A noble lady who is devoted to helping war wounded can be believable, but such a woman would be too devoted/dedicated to pursue a romance or drop her work for any man (or even a king). They should have stuck with the original story line because it is plausible.  Also,I really don't like her bad mouthing Robb when they first met. What was especially strange to me was that during their next meeting her abrasiveness towards him was suddenly transformed into flirtation. It was almost like she reverted into a silly love- struck  girl. I think they were trying to go for a Ygritte/Jon dynamic, but I don't think it worked. I think in general they do make the female characters more abrasive than they are presented in the books. Book Ygritte and Brienne have softer sides that are not reflected on the show.  

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Talisa was fine for the show and it worked for a very effective scene at the Red Wedding.  Robb bringing her is just as strong of him standing by his decision and not attempting to hide it away.

I also enjoy that a grown Stark Male had actually doubt with their ways.  After having your Father being beheaded as a traitor, and your Grandfather died a torturous death along with your Uncle, there should be some  conflict with what your desire is and what is to be right and honorable.  That is was not something totally circumstantial was also good.

 

Disappointed that we were in Volant is twice and it was not reference is some manner.

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I agree with a lot of what had been said about Talisa, her marriage with Robb and everything that followed it. Show Robb being an utter idiot was an inevitable consequence of him being older. Even if he married Jeyne in the same circumstances, with matters of honor and Jon's treatment in mind, he still would look worse, because he was supposed to be less emotional and more worldly than a 15 year old boy. 

They falling in love so quickly, marrying almost in secret and Talisa going to the RW were nonsensical. 

On the other hand, I didn't see her portrayal as tomboysh (working for a cause is a man's thing?) and her being sassy is pretty natural for a person who rejected the whole class system. And  about being anachronist, there has always been women who challenged the status quo, why can't she be one of those? 

Anyway, what really bothered me about Talissa is the fact that she had so much potential, and they wasted it. She wrote letters for her noble family in Volantis, why show her writing those letters more than once, making it a subject of conversation if her family would never appear in the story to meddle in westerosi affairs? Talissa's wedding to Robb should matter politically beyond spiting the Frey's. If Talissa lived, they should want a westerosi king for themselves and giving resources to allies to make it happen.  Or shelter the baby until a convenient moment. She died, so they should want revenge. 

It would be nice to have a completely different development to events in GOT, but no less exciting than the original. 

As for the Sybell Westerling theories, I don't know. I want to believe that Robb was given a love potion, but even in that circumstance, he is king, he could do almost anything. He could have realized his mistake and undone his marriage to Jeyne. He would be an oathbreaker, but he was one already. I think in any case, there was influence of his own naivete on his decisions.

And I want to believe Jeyne was swapped and she is pregnant with Robb's child somewhere. It would be comforting as a reader and would not a problem storywise, but a solution. The kid doesn't have to avenge his father to have importance to the plot. Even as a baby, he or she would change the political game. As a pawn, yes, but stll. And we have seen the son avenging his father storyline, I don't see much sense to repeat it just to 'get it right' this time. GRRM should be more complex than that.

Besides, why would the Blackfish be so stubborn with keeping the wolf banners if the Starks related to him are all dead but Sansa, who is married to a Lannister? He should be worried about Edmure, who was a Lannister captive, and bend the knee so that his nephew had a chance to live. I think that it is very odd, even for him, unless he knows something that we don't. 

There are problems with this theory, though. One is the fact GRRM said that Jaime's description of Jeyne was a mistake. But some speculate that the mistake was putting a clue way more obvious than he intended.

Another is the fact that the Jeyne that was supposedly false was clinging to her crown and visibly mourning Robb's death as a widow would. Could Jeyne's sister  put on such an act so convincingly? 

 

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Urgh Talisa.  I wouldn't have minded if she was marginally interesting.  The writers sat down and came up with 'Things Writers Think Characterise Strong Women'.  

Jeyne on the other hand is a really intriguing character.  I find the conspiracy theories about the Westerlings to be quite convincing but even that aside (for fanwank does not an interesting character make) we have this 'girl' who is just pretty, and nice and kind (dull as dishwater) and then when she is widowed we see something completely unexpected.  Do I want to know more?  Nah, but's it's cool that GRRM plays with our exceptions.  Jeyne was supposed to be 'just some girl' (indeed thats why I like the arc) but he adds something, a little spice.  It's pretty cool.  

The show butchered Shae in a similar way.  She couldn't be a lazy but clever prostitute that Tyrion viewed with rose tinted glasses.    In fact now I think about Shae is basically Talisa-in-hard-times.  

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On 9.9.2016 at 2:24 PM, Cron said:

(1)   Jaime's "hip comment" seems odd to me.   Cat, a woman and mother, notices Jeyne's  hips, and that is not surprising to me, but...Jaime???  He is a man and a father, quite frankly I don't think men are anywhere near as likely to be thinking about the width or narrowness of a woman's hips as women are. Add to this the fact that I strongly believe Jaime wasn't attracted to her, cuz Jaime isn' like that, he's not really attracted to ANY woman besides Cersei (and maybe Brienne), and he's never had sex with any woman except Cersei, even though Jaime must have had hundreds (if not thousands) of opportunities during his life.   So why on Earth is Jaime thinknig about Jeyne's hips, of all things???  I believe it was put in there as a clue, that this girl is not Jeyne Westerling.

He was aroused by Pia and was glad she couldn't see it under the bathwater or something - so that argument's dismissed.

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On 6.9.2016 at 11:37 PM, fire&blood said:

It was infuriating.  And honestly, did they really need to make the Red Wedding more gruesome than it was in the books?  Adding a pregnant Talisa in the mix getting stabbed to death was extra and unnecessary.

Wasn't Cat's death in the book a lot longer and more gruesome?

Always remember:
-when the show sanitizes a violent scene, it's Hollywood Pandering
-when the show increases violence, it's extra and unnecessary

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On 6.9.2016 at 9:56 PM, fire&blood said:

There are a ton of differences between the books and the show, but the one that bothered me a lot was Robb and Talisa.  In the books, Robb marrying Jeyne made sense to me.  He is the son of the honorable Eddard Stark.  He was injured and vulnerable over the death of his father & brothers and Jeyne "comforted" him. He chose the honorable path by marrying the Lady Jeyne instead of deflowering her and abandoning her. She was from a noble house that served for House Lannister - this marriage garnered him an alliance with House Westerling (although we all know House Frey brought more manpower). He may have been the king who lost the north, but this explanation makes sense considering how he was raised. He wouldn't be the type of man to take a woman's maidenhood (especially one from a noble house) and not marry her. 

But Robb marrying Talisa because she was hot and he fell in love so he forsake his vow is NOT Robb's way. He broke his vow to House Frey for an attractive woman, nothing else.  We are to believe that Robb would make himself an oathbreaker who would forsake duty and honor for a piece of ass? C'mon! This was the biggest fail D&D made and I bet GRRM wasn't happy about it. When House Glover refused to help Jon and Sansa he was absolutely right, so why would the Northerners rally for House Stark again in the show? They know that the Red Wedding was due to Robb Stark's choice to marry a foreign woman he hardly knew over keeping faith with House Frey.  Thoughts? 

Yeah what some of the others here said.

Sometimes I wonder if all these adamant RRRers are all actually people from the middle ages or perhaps even Westeros itself, transported through time and interspace into modernity where they discovered the internet and made message board accounts.

It's all a bit too suspicious in my estimation:
-they call character changes like Stannis "character assassination", as if it was a real person who's assets and honor must be accurately represented
-they valiantly defend "royal succession rules" and get outraged when they're ignored during a coup
-they champion "honour", hate the show for "hating honor" and then scoff at romantic love as if it were something lowly - what's wrong with Robb falling in love and trying to evade the suffocating laws and contracts of his environment? And him being impulsive and shortsighted in a show (and book) full of flawed characters?


So yeah as others have said since, the basic idea of the show was a good one - an emotionally compelling romance plot that would've moved mountains and prevailed against all opposition in a "classic fantasy narrative", but instead ran into well set-up iceberg in the cynical, chaotic world depicted instead.

With that said, the specifics and whatnot can be criticized I suppose.
Had the book version been nothing more than "he fucked some woman and then married her out of a sense of duty", the two plots, or concepts would've been on par, but because of all the additional factors and dilemmas contained there it's not really a competition I guess.

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On 4/9/2017 at 5:31 PM, Pink Fat Rast said:

He was aroused by Pia and was glad she couldn't see it under the bathwater or something - so that argument's dismissed.

Interesting.

Yeah, I admit I hadn't thought about Pia in connection with this issue.

Still, though...I don't think that cancels out everything I said, maybe just part of it.

 

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