Heresy 191 The Crows

[Black Crow]

3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Mel has an extreme viewpoint, and a lot of people take this as gospel, and expect a battle between Rh'llor and the great Other.  I don't buy half of what she said.

While she talks a lot about conflict between ice and fire, I don't think she's referenced a song.  The Reeds talk about natural order, but I don’t see The Song of Ice and Fire referring to either the natural order or Mel's conflict.

Rhaegar didn't say that his son has some minor part to play in the Song of Ice and Fire, he said it was his song, meaning the whole song is about him.

I probably didn't express myself too well in the rush to get out this morning.

Both GRRM and myself grew up during the Cold War; it was ever present and I played a very minor role in it back in the 1980s. The Song of Ice and Fire in the background to this present tale is directly analogous to it and whether seen on the one hand as a duality representing the natural order of things or as a conflict it is just as real and ever-present as the Cold War [effectively ended by the fall of the Wall just months before GRRM began writing ASoIF] and requires no prophecy.

At no point did I suggest that Rhaegar was saying that his son had a minor role to play. Clearly he saw his son's destiny lying in the Song of Ice and Fire, but in doing so he was referencing his obsession with the Prince that was Promised prophesy, not a non-existent prophecy about something already ongoing. 

[Brad Stark]

Rhaegar didn't say that his son had a major part to play in the Song of Ice and Fire either, he said it was his song, meaning the whole song is about him.

Who had the most important part in the cold war?  Stalin, Kennedy, Gorbachev, Regan, or anyone else you pick, it is hard to say the entire cold war was the story of one person.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Rhaegar didn't say that his son had a major part to play in the Song of Ice and Fire either, he said it was his song, meaning the whole song is about him.

Who had the most important part in the cold war?  Stalin, Kennedy, Gorbachev, Regan, or anyone else you pick, it is hard to say the entire cold war was the story of one person.

Rhaegar said that a song is dedicated to his son.  Not that Aegon is the song or that he is the subject of the song; just that Aegon has a song. And that was Rhaegar's belief. Just a prophecy obsessed guy like Mel or Moqorro or Benerro or the other Targs.

 

[Black Crow]

 

4 hours ago, aDanceWithFlagons said:

Rhaegar said that a song is dedicated to his son.  Not that Aegon is the song or that he is the subject of the song; just that Aegon has a song. And that was Rhaegar's belief. Just a prophecy obsessed guy like Mel or Moqorro or Benerro or the other Targs.

 

Exactly so. Rhaeghar thought that his son's destiny lay in the Song of Ice and Fire.

[Melifeather]

On 9/20/2016 at 9:37 PM, DutchArya said:

Yes, their musical names. How do you interpret that fitting into their respective narratives?

Sorry, not meaning to ignore you...I just didn't have much to add.. I was just pointing out that the two Stark daughters names were musical terms since someone else pointed out that it seemed as though women should be able to speak or understand the language of nature. Sansa is a musical instrument and Arya is a vocal solo, so it seems implied that symbolically Sansa may be used or played by someone else to "sing", while Arya "sings" alone.

[Brad Stark]

GRRM said Wun Wun's name is a reference to Phil Simms.  Just because a character's name is based on something doesn't imply that something has anything to do with the story.

[Black Crow]

GRRM has a number of jokes scattered through the story, of which the demolition of that knight by Wun Wun is one of the better known, but the girls' names have been embedded from the very beginning and do reflect what's happening to them. Sansa has been played  and Arya is very much a solo character.

[LynnS]

I'm not sure how this fits into the song if it fits.... We have the famous scene in the HoU where Dany sees Rhaegar, Elia and newborn, where Aegon says the boy has a song.  Then later Dany asks Jorah if he knows the song of ice and fire and he says it's no song he has ever heard.  But notice how Dany constructs Drogo's funeral pyre in GoT:

Over the carcass of the horse, they built a platform of hewn logs; trunks of smaller trees and limbs from the greater, and the thickest straightest branches they could find.  They laid the wood east to west, from sunrise to sunset.  On the platform they piled Khal Drogo's treasures: his great tent, his painted vest, his saddles and harness, the whip his father had given him when he came to manhood, the arakh he used to slay Khal Ogo and his son, a mighty dragonbone bow.  Aggo would have added weapons Drogo's bloodriders had givn Dany for bride fits as well, but she forbade it.  "Those are mine," she told him, "and I mean to keep them."  Another layer of brush was piled about the Khal's treasures, and bundles of dried grass scattered over them.

The third level of platform was woven of branches no thicker than a finger, and covered with dry leaves and twigs.  They laid them north to south, from ice to fire, and piled them high with soft cushions and sleeping silks.

The ritual for building the cairn seems traditional or follows a specific formula, at least for a Khal.  I find it odd that the north-south direction is referred to as ice to fire.

The Stallion who Mounts the World prophecy seems to be another version of the PwiP; perhaps the oldest version:

"The stallion is the khal of khals promised in ancient prophecy, child.  He will unite the Dothraki into a single khalasar and ride to the ends of the earth, or so it was promised. All the people of the world will be his herd."  Jorah to Dany

Another oddity:

They rode to the lake the Dothraki called the womb of the world, surrounded by a fringe of reeds, its water still and clam. A thousand thousand years ago, Jhiqui told her, the first man (the first men?) had emerged from its depths, riding upon the back of the first horse.

On 2016-09-23 at 0:24 PM, Feather Crystal said:

Sorry, not meaning to ignore you...I just didn't have much to add.. I was just pointing out that the two Stark daughters names were musical terms since someone else pointed out that it seemed as though women should be able to speak or understand the language of nature. Sansa is a musical instrument and Arya is a vocal solo, so it seems implied that symbolically Sansa may be used or played by someone else to "sing", while Arya "sings" alone.

The English word "Aryan" is borrowed from the Sanskrit word ārya,^[8]आर्य, meaning "noble" or "noble one".

Initially the term was used as a national name to designate those who worshipped the Vedic deities (especially Indra) and followed Vedic culture (e.g. performance of sacrifice

Indra  He is the deva of rain and thunderstorms.^[1] He wields a lightning thunderbolt.. His horse's name is Uchchaihshrava.  His home is situated on Mount Meru in the heavens.^[2] He is celebrated as a demiurge who pushes up the sky, releases (dawn) from the Vala cave, and slays Vṛtra; both latter actions are central to the Soma sacrifice

Indra is the "slayer of Vritra" and also as "slayer of the first-born of dragons" who mother is Danu.  The word Danu described the primeval waters which this deity perhaps embodied. - wikipedia

Just one more oddity I came across in my reread.  Dany is on her way to the HoU and they see the firemage performing for the crowd.  Quaithe speaks to Dany:

"A fine trick," announced Jhogo with admiration.

"No trick," a woman said in the Common Tongue.

Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask.  "What mean you, my lady?"

"Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake the fire from dragonglass.  He had some small skill with powders and wildfire, sufficient to entrance a crowd while his cutpurses did their work.  He could walk across hot coals and make burning roses bloom in the air, but he could not more aspire to climb the fiery ladder than a common fisherman could hope to catch a kraken in his nets."

Sounds a lot like Mel and the business of waking fire from obsidian is interesting.  Mel's ruby comes to mind and the Red Sword.

Sorry, end of digressions....

 

[Black Crow]

42 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure how this fits into the song if it fits.... We have the famous scene in the HoU where Dany sees Rhaegar, Elia and newborn, where Aegon says the boy has a song.  Then later Dany asks Jorah if he knows the song of ice and fire and he says it's no song he has ever heard.  But notice how Dany constructs Drogo's funeral pyre in GoT:

Over the carcass of the horse, they built a platform of hewn logs; trunks of smaller trees and limbs from the greater, and the thickest straightest branches they could find.  They laid the wood east to west, from sunrise to sunset.  On the platform they piled Khal Drogo's treasures: his great tent, his painted vest, his saddles and harness, the whip his father had given him when he came to manhood, the arakh he used to slay Khal Ogo and his son, a mighty dragonbone bow.  Aggo would have added weapons Drogo's bloodriders had givn Dany for bride fits as well, but she forbade it.  "Those are mine," she told him, "and I mean to keep them."  Another layer of brush was piled about the Khal's treasures, and bundles of dried grass scattered over them.

The third level of platform was woven of branches no thicker than a finger, and covered with dry leaves and twigs.  They laid them north to south, from ice to fire, and piled them high with soft cushions and sleeping silks.

The ritual for building the cairn seems traditional or follows a specific formula, at least for a Khal.  I find it odd that the north-south direction is referred to as ice to fire.

Yeah, I think that Jorah is just being crass and insensitive here, because its yet another example of Ice and Fire being a familiar simile for linked opposites.

[Black Crow]

45 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The Stallion who Mounts the World prophecy seems to be another version of the PwiP; perhaps the oldest version:

"The stallion is the khal of khals promised in ancient prophecy, child.  He will unite the Dothraki into a single khalasar and ride to the ends of the earth, or so it was promised. All the people of the world will be his herd."  Jorah to Dany

 

Indeed and again its worth remembering Maester Aemon's comment about getting the male/female thing wrong.

When the witches of the Dosh Khaleen did their stuff with a pregnant Danaerys the Dragonlord they proclaimed with reverence and awe that she was carrying the Stallion that Mounts the World.

They got it wrong. Danaerys the Dragonlord herself is the Stallion who Mounts the World. They just got the gender wrong.

[LynnS]

19 hours ago, Black Crow said:

They just got the gender wrong.

   I'm also reminded of Marwyn's warning about prophecy. 

[Black Crow]

Oh dear me yes, and GRRM himself has warned of this very strongly indeed.

[Lady Dyanna]

7 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm also reminded of Marwyn's warning about prophecy. 

Maybe that's why they got the gender wrong!  

[Black Crow]

Ouch!

[LynnS]

I wonder if the Song of Ice and Fire is the Westerosi equivalent of the Iliad and the Odyssey.  

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I wonder if the Song of Ice and Fire is the Westerosi equivalent of the Iliad and the Odyssey.  

If it is I'd be inclined to see it as ongoing.

[JNR]

20 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Maybe that's why they got the gender wrong!

Ha!

Along similar lines, I wonder if it's ever been suggested that Jon's father is secretly Lyanna Stark... a boy who was raised as a girl for unknown reasons by a psychotic mother whom GRRM has conveniently shoved into the shadows all these books. 

[Lady Dyanna]

21 hours ago, JNR said:

Ha!

Along similar lines, I wonder if it's ever been suggested that Jon's father is secretly Lyanna Stark... a boy who was raised as a girl for unknown reasons by a psychotic mother whom GRRM has conveniently shoved into the shadows all these books. 

Maybe it was an idea more along theses lines...

https://imgur.com/a/BJxW0

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Maybe it was an idea more along theses lines...

https://imgur.com/a/BJxW0

That's hilarious!

On 2016-09-26 at 1:22 PM, Black Crow said:

If it is I'd be inclined to see it as ongoing.

Well, I'm grasping at straws.  I'm reading Mary Beard's book SPQR and with GRRM' reference to Suetonious, I'm off in that direction.  LOL!  The Valyrians built roads all over Essos out of black rock and all roads lead to Old Valyria.   The song of ice and fire as an epic 'poem' in the making not unlike the Iliad (the song of the lion) and the Odyssey, the wandering hero.   

It strikes me that singing is integral to weaving spells.  MMD tells Dany that once she begins to sing; nobody should enter the tent.  Mel says that her every word and gesture has become more potent.  The song might be about weaving ice and fire together which may be why Mel says the Wall is as much her place as Jon's.  But it's an ancient song that few know or can speak the language.   A spell-song that can only be broken with another song.  So we have the mysterious horns and the mute direwolf. 

And only hints about it's antiquity in the Crannogmen's oath and the construction of Drogo's funeral pyre. 

Morality Tale.

No free man would willingly sign aboard a ship who’s captain spoke openly of his intent to sail into the Smoking sea. “So those are fires of the Fourteen Flames we’re seeing, reflected on the clouds?”

“Fourteen or fourteen thousand. What man dares count them? It is not wise for mortals to look too deeply at those fires, my friend. Those are the fires of god’s own wrath, and no human flame can match them. We are small creatures, men."  Moqorro to Tyrion

 

[Frey family reunion]

On ‎9‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 0:40 PM, Black Crow said:

See Matthew's posts above abut what GRRM has said and how the Reeds speak of it. They are not talking about a prophecy; both Rhaegar and Elia are familiar with it as a concept not a single event.

It seems that Rhaegar speaks of a number of different concepts that may have their origin in different cultures, but he assumes they are all interrelated.  And perhaps coming from someone who's family has intermarried with a number of different cultures this is understandable.  Rhaegar speaks of

1.  The Prince that was promised.

2.  A dragon has three heads.

3. A song of ice and fire

 

We already have both Aemon and Melisandre conflating The Prince that was Promised with the prophecy of Azhor Ahai being reborn in smoke and salt.  So perhaps Rhaegar is doing the same.

1. I think that the Prince that was promised, seems to reference a messianic figure who was labeled as a Prince (not a king).  So I would look at cultures whose head sovereign was  prince and not a king.  Of course this brings us to the Dornes, and before the Dornes, The Rhoynes.  Most cultures who have a messianic belief are cultures who are being oppressed.  This also fits the Rhoynes to a tee, since a thousand years ago they were being subjugated by the Valyrians. 

Now the Prince that was promised prophecy is first associated with House Targaryen during the time of Aegon V.  This also makes me think that this could be a Dornish/Rhoynish prophecy, since Aegon V's mother was a Dayne and his maternal grandmother was a princess of Dorne.  In the Sworn Sword, Ser Eustace complains that King's Landing had been too influenced by the Dornish culture under Daeron, Aegon V's grandfather.  It would not surprise me that the belief of a Rhoynish savior would then be passed down to this Targaryen family who was now half dornish.  It also makes sense that Rhaegar would associate his half dornish son with being The Prince that was promised, based just as much on his maternal side as his paternal one.

2. Then we have the dragon has three heads.  During his final days, Aemon cryptically says that the sphinx is the riddle and not the riddler.  I think he is referring to the Valyrian sphinx which is the body of a dragon with the head of a man (or woman).  My guess is the dragon has three heads is a Valyrian or Targaryen concept.  We have Aerion Targaryen drinking wildfire in hopes of being resurrected as a dragon.  We have Aerys planning on turning King's Landing into a funeral pyre in hopes of being resurrected as a dragon.  I think the Targaryens were obsessed with transferring their consciousness into the body of a dragon (think of what Bran rather, Varamyr does, only permanently and with a dragon).   I think The Dragon has three heads, may be a reference to this, three consciousness required to be transferred into a dragon. 

3.  If the song of ice and fire is related to the Reeds oath to the Starks, then my guess is this is a Westerosi concept that Rhaegar has assumed is related to the Valyrian/Targaryen concept of the dragon has three heads, and the Dornish/Rhoynish concept of the Prince that was Promised.  A messianic figure reborn as a dragon who is essential in this song of ice and fire, and perhaps believed to be essential to the Battle for the Dawn.