LynnS Posted September 27, 2016 Share Posted September 27, 2016 1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said: 2. Then we have the dragon has three heads. During his final days, Aemon cryptically says that the sphinx is the riddle and not the riddler. I think he is referring to the Valyrian sphinx which is the body of a dragon with the head of a man (or woman). My guess is the dragon has three heads is a Valyrian or Targaryen concept. We have Aerion Targaryen drinking wildfire in hopes of being resurrected as a dragon. We have Aerys planning on turning King's Landing into a funeral pyre in hopes of being resurrected as a dragon. I think the Targaryens were obsessed with transferring their consciousness into the body of a dragon (think of what Bran does, only permanently and with a dragon). I think The Dragon has three heads, may be a reference to this, three consciousness required to be transferred into a dragon. This is what I find fascinating that Targaryens would try to transform into a dragon or transfer their consciousness as a means for achieving immortality or becoming a god. They Valyrion's have their own gods: The Valyrians had a number of different gods, including Balerion, Meraxes, Vhagar, and Syrax These sound like dragons to me and the Targaryens name their own dragons after their gods. Melisandre insists that R'Hllor is real and male and I wonder about the Great Temple of R'hllor that Tyrion sees commenting on it's immense size. You have to wonder what they are keeping in that temple. I wonder if one or more of these Valyrion gods actually exists and if Danny's dream of the black dragon (the dread mount) is a 'god' singing to her in her fever dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted September 28, 2016 Author Share Posted September 28, 2016 9 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: 1. I think that the Prince that was promised, seems to reference a messianic figure who was labeled as a Prince (not a king). So I would look at cultures whose head sovereign was prince and not a king. Of course this brings us to the Dornes, and before the Dornes, The Rhoynes. Most cultures who have a messianic belief are cultures who are being oppressed. This also fits the Rhoynes to a tee, since a thousand years ago they were being subjugated by the Valyrians. I have to disagree on the definition of a prince. In European terms all kings are princes so we needn't restrict our viewing to cultures which had princes but not kings. Otherwise I'll go along with this and can't help observing once again that notwithstanding the conflating of the Prince that was Promised with Azor Ahai, the latter legend's appearance in ancient books of Asshai coincides with the Valyrians and their monsters [dragons] destroying the old Ghiscari empire out that way. Something else we need more information on is why the Targaryens broke with the rest of Valyria; not simply in fleeing the place ahead of the Doom, but turning against the other survivors when they attempted to revive the Empire in Volantis. Is there a connection here with the prophecy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted September 28, 2016 Author Share Posted September 28, 2016 8 hours ago, LynnS said: This is what I find fascinating that Targaryens would try to transform into a dragon or transfer their consciousness as a means for achieving immortality or becoming a god. They Valyrion's have their own gods: The Valyrians had a number of different gods, including Balerion, Meraxes, Vhagar, and Syrax These sound like dragons to me and the Targaryens name their own dragons after their gods. Melisandre insists that R'Hllor is real and male and I wonder about the Great Temple of R'hllor that Tyrion sees commenting on it's immense size. You have to wonder what they are keeping in that temple. I wonder if one or more of these Valyrion gods actually exists and if Danny's dream of the black dragon (the dread mount) is a 'god' singing to her in her fever dream. Well, this I'd say comes back to what we've been discussing about the true relationship between the direwolves and the children of Winterfell; questioning whether they are the pet dogs they appear to be or whether they not only initiated the warging link but may be the dominant partners. Do the Targaryens have dragons, or do the dragons have Targaryens? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 4 hours ago, Black Crow said: I have to disagree on the definition of a prince. In European terms all kings are princes so we needn't restrict our viewing to cultures which had princes but not kings. Otherwise I'll go along with this and can't help observing once again that notwithstanding the conflating of the Prince that was Promised with Azor Ahai, the latter legend's appearance in ancient books of Asshai coincides with the Valyrians and their monsters [dragons] destroying the old Ghiscari empire out that way. Something else we need more information on is why the Targaryens broke with the rest of Valyria; not simply in fleeing the place ahead of the Doom, but turning against the other survivors when they attempted to revive the Empire in Volantis. Is there a connection here with the prophecy? If the prince that was promised prophecy does indeed date back at least a thousand years, then it is doubtful that it is a Valyrian prophecy, since as a Freehold, Valyria had neither princes nor kings. It could very well be a Westerosi prophecy, and prince could have been used in lieu of king for merely alliterative purposes. But if TPTWP is.a messiah figure, in popular culture most messiah figures seem to be compared to the highest sovereign of the land. Arthur was the once and future king (perhaps a bad example since he was supposed to have been an actual king), or perhaps a better example is Jesus as the king of kings. My main point is, the fact that the Targaryens seemed to have decided that TPTWP was associated with their family doesn't necessarily mean it was a Valyrian prophecy, or a Westerosi one. At the time of Aegon V the Targaryens were just as Dornish/Rhoynish as they were Valyrian. And the Dornes and the Rhoyes before them are the people most connected to the idea of a Prince in the series. This whole exercise also seems very much in line with what we could expect from Aemon, who is both a Targaryen, with a Daynish mother, a Rhoynish grandmother, and someone who studied at the citadel. It appears that he is trying to find a common denominator between prophecies and legends of various cultures, with an emphasis on the legends of the cultures of his family, and tying them all into the greatest boogeyman of the land that his family rules over, the Long Night and return of the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 4 hours ago, Black Crow said: Well, this I'd say comes back to what we've been discussing about the true relationship between the direwolves and the children of Winterfell; questioning whether they are the pet dogs they appear to be or whether they not only initiated the warging link but may be the dominant partners. Do the Targaryens have dragons, or do the dragons have Targaryens? Martin has at least publicly in his interviews downplayed the intelligence of the dragons of his stories, equating their intelligence to be about on par with a household dog. My suspicion is that the direwolves are far more intelligent than the average dog and are more of a partner to the wargs while the dragons were more subservient to their riders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted September 28, 2016 Share Posted September 28, 2016 3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: Martin has at least publicly in his interviews downplayed the intelligence of the dragons of his stories, equating their intelligence to be about on par with a household dog. My suspicion is that the direwolves are far more intelligent than the average dog and are more of a partner to the wargs while the dragons were more subservient to their riders. I think this was true to some extent...I'm thinking this changed once we had Valaryons and Targs mixing with the first men ia marriage and affairs.I think we saw the first of that type of relationship in with the dragon and riders in TPATG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace Cooterian Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 A Tribute to Black Crow It seems appropriate as we navigate Heresy 191 to give pause and reflect upon the subject of Crow. I'm going to diverge away from the Heresy topic of Crow and focus upon its founder... Black Crow. First an interlude. I stumbled upon the scene around H21. The truth be known I was surfing the threads and came across a topic that had something to do with the iron swords across the Stark graves in the tombs at Winterfell. I made a NOOPS remark about something that had no substance on the issue at hand. The Crow quickly corrected me with the comment..."er, no". I was hooked. The following is a thank you to the man that has allowed us to remain involved in this continuing saga that we all know as ASOIAF. While we remain vigilant that GRRM will eventually complete his "Iliad"; until that time comes those of us will confide in having this forum as a common ground to come and share ideas. Thank you Black Crow for setting the bar high and pushing us all to think beyond the boundaries of what at first brush would seem normal. Mace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted September 29, 2016 Author Share Posted September 29, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted September 29, 2016 Author Share Posted September 29, 2016 19 hours ago, Frey family reunion said: Martin has at least publicly in his interviews downplayed the intelligence of the dragons of his stories, equating their intelligence to be about on par with a household dog. My suspicion is that the direwolves are far more intelligent than the average dog and are more of a partner to the wargs while the dragons were more subservient to their riders. I don't think that the dragons need to be seen as evil geniuses here. The direwolves as we see through Bran's wolf dreams don't seem much brighter than my mastiff, but I don't see that invalidating the possibility that both dragons and direwolves are the stronger and more dominant partners. After all the Wise Masters of Yunkai don't strike the reader as the brightest and best, but yet they suggessfully enslave thousands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted September 29, 2016 Author Share Posted September 29, 2016 Crows on the other hand are clever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted September 29, 2016 Share Posted September 29, 2016 Well said Mace! BC the clever crow, king of Heresy! Long may he reign! I too have been around since H20-something. When I happen to mention my participation in the online forums and note the length of time I have been doing so, I get the strangest looks from family and friends who cannot fathom the attraction and wonder what planet(os) I'm living on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted September 30, 2016 Author Share Posted September 30, 2016 Ah, but it aint just me you see. I might have started it up back in 2011 but its everybody else who has kept it going Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Stark Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 It is strange the prophecy references a Prince who was Promised. Why not a Lord or King? Why does he even need a Title? Why not The Warrior who was Promised? Or Hero? Did GRRM pick this just because it sounds good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted September 30, 2016 Share Posted September 30, 2016 1 hour ago, Brad Stark said: It is strange the prophecy references a Prince who was Promised. Why not a Lord or King? Why does he even need a Title? Why not The Warrior who was Promised? Or Hero? Did GRRM pick this just because it sounds good? It's the word "prince" that I believe was misinterpreted, when it's actually supposed to be "dragon". Apparently the two words must look similar and was mistranslated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 1, 2016 Author Share Posted October 1, 2016 21 hours ago, Feather Crystal said: It's the word "prince" that I believe was misinterpreted, when it's actually supposed to be "dragon". Apparently the two words must look similar and was mistranslated. That was Maester Aemon's thought and I think that he's right both on getting the gender wrong and indentifying Danaerys the Dragonlord as the one foretold in prophecy. As to the "Prince" as I said earlier its misleading to read it as a specific title. Rather its being used in its original broader meaning of denoting a nobleman or even a noble warrior. Think in terms of the expression "a prince among men". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted October 1, 2016 Share Posted October 1, 2016 IMO the Prince that was Promised prophecy is based on the original blood magic ritual used when the Childen forged their third sword to kill humans, but they also believed this third sword "broke" Westeros, or what they refer to as the moon Nissa Nissa. The wheel of time keeps repeating itself...the birth, death, rebirth cycle keeps repeating. The end of each cycle has a cataclysmic event and I believe the third sword was a volcanic eruption. Dragons and volcanoes have similar descriptions, and maybe the volcanic eruption is what birthed dragons. When the moon split open a thousand thousand dragons poured forth. The Targaryens are very much students of history and they've been trying to replicate the cycle in such a way as to birth a dragon at the end of it. The dragons are what elevated the Valyrians to lords, or rather your "princes among men", therefore the ability to birth a dragon is what will make you a prince. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 1, 2016 Author Share Posted October 1, 2016 Which is probably a good point to mention that Feather's Wheel of Time essay will be the OP for Heresy 191, with the delayed Winterfell essay starting 192. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 2, 2016 Author Share Posted October 2, 2016 On 9/30/2016 at 4:09 PM, Brad Stark said: It is strange the prophecy references a Prince who was Promised. Why not a Lord or King? Why does he even need a Title? Why not The Warrior who was Promised? Or Hero? Did GRRM pick this just because it sounds good? Returning for a moment to this point, as I said the term prince shouldn't necessarily be interpreted in its narrow sense of a title; such as Prince Rhaegar or Prince Aegon. After all, as was pointed out above the Valyrian Freehold had none. Rather it ought to be interpreted more broadly as a prince [without a capital P], a high-minded, noble individual and yes even perhaps a valiant warrior - its all in the translation. Leaving aside whether or not Azor Ahai and the Prince that was Promised really are one and the same as Mel believes and Maester Aemon appeared to believe, we have a clear example of two completely different names seemingly being attached to the same chosen one - and that's before we start arguing whether the Stallion is another manifestation of the same. I have a suspicion here that they are none of them one and the same but that given GRRM's warning about prophecy what's really going on here is not the old cliche of a prophesied hero returning to save the day, but rather that the "Prince" is important as a clue that the real theme is "Put not your trust in Princes" and that the real threat is those who do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JNR Posted October 2, 2016 Share Posted October 2, 2016 2 hours ago, Black Crow said: the term prince shouldn't necessarily be interpreted in its narrow sense of a title; such as Prince Rhaegar or Prince Aegon. After all, as was pointed out above the Valyrian Freehold had none Since a prophecy by definition concerns a future time, I'm not sure why that would matter, though. Anyone, anywhere on GRRMworld, at any point in time, could have had a prophetic vision about a future reality in which the concept of a dragon prince would apply. Along similar lines, anybody today could have a prophetic vision about Martian Vikings. It wouldn't mean a thing to us, and would seem nonsensical, right up to the point in time when Mars is colonized and the colonists create a football league that includes a team named Vikings. So I don't think we can extrapolate anything about the original time or place of the prophet from the prophecy or its terms. 2 hours ago, Black Crow said: the real theme is "Put not your trust in Princes" and that the real threat is those who do A concept that applies neatly to the current American presidential election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted October 2, 2016 Author Share Posted October 2, 2016 15 hours ago, JNR said: Since a prophecy by definition concerns a future time, I'm not sure why that would matter, though. Anyone, anywhere on GRRMworld, at any point in time, could have had a prophetic vision about a future reality in which the concept of a dragon prince would apply. Along similar lines, anybody today could have a prophetic vision about Martian Vikings. It wouldn't mean a thing to us, and would seem nonsensical, right up to the point in time when Mars is colonized and the colonists create a football league that includes a team named Vikings. So I don't think we can extrapolate anything about the original time or place of the prophet from the prophecy or its terms. It doesn't. That's my point. Additional bit: We have three examples laid out before us here and there could well be more: Azor Ahai: mighty hero with fiery sword. Spoken of as a man; Stannis proclaimed as such and given a sword to do the job by Mel, although she seems a bit unclear as to exactly what he's supposed to do with it. On the other hand Mel's boss recognises Danaerys the Drragonlord [a woman] as Azor Ahai and is very clear from the go-get that her job is to finish off the Valyrians. The Prince that was Promised. Assumed to be one and the same, but unclear as to whether a Prince or a "dragon"[-lord]. Assumed to be a man, but Aemon proclaims Danaerys The Stallion that Rides - Danaerys again? All three appear to be one and the same, but not according to the literal prophecy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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