Jump to content

Heresy 191 The Crows


Black Crow

Recommended Posts

On 9/28/2016 at 11:52 PM, Black Crow said:

Crows on the other hand are clever :commie:

True that! And according to Old Nan they are liars,we also hear that they are tricksy.I would imagine in times way back if they would speak messages back and forth how many of those messages were altered?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

True that! And according to Old Nan they are liars,we also hear that they are tricksy.I would imagine in times way back if they would speak messages back and forth how many of those messages were altered?

Once again I think that's the point - or part of it. As I recall that remark was followed Bran speaking of his crow dreams and as I've said before this business of using crows/ravens for messengers is said to go back to when they could speak. I don't believe they ever could beyond the cryptic words we get from the Lord Commander's raven - which hardly counts as complex messages. Rather I still think that the ancient references to crows speaking are about their speaking in the mind rather than audible speech, and yes, absolutely. I think that as players, whether major or minor ones, they are capable of speech and capable of lies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Any thoughts on the Night's Watch being called "crows"?  I know they wear black, and that's the reason we are meant to know, but I've always suspected a deeper meaning.  Maybe crows eat the dead, and the Night's Watch burnt the dead so they didn't come back.  Maybe they were messengers, or servants of the Children of the Forest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think there is evidence to suggest that the Andals assumed control over the Nights Watch and so it's up for debate if their purpose also changed or if any of their traditions changed. They're called crows because they all dress in black, but I like the idea of crows taking care of the dead, and the association with wolves. In real life crows and wolves have a symbiotic relationship. Crows both lead and follow wolves when they hunt even alerting them to prey. It may be that if the Starks founded the Watch then they would be the crows to the Stark wolves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Any thoughts on the Night's Watch being called "crows"?  I know they wear black, and that's the reason we are meant to know, but I've always suspected a deeper meaning.  Maybe crows eat the dead, and the Night's Watch burnt the dead so they didn't come back.  Maybe they were messengers, or servants of the Children of the Forest.

I think the obvious answer is indeed that they look like crows. I'm not inclined on the evidence before us to go deeper than that so far as the Watch themselves are concerned, but I would say that on the one hand it isn't intended to be complimentary and on the other that they are being compared thus because a significant variety of people actively dislike the winged crows and that in turn suggests that there is a good reason for this active dislike.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Under the sea, the crows are white as snow." - Patchface.

"A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood.  It stood in front of Royce, Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk.  Its armor seemed to change color as it moved, here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as a shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees.  The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took."

"They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first.  Three of them ... four ... five ... "

"Behind him, to right, to left, all around him, the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood.  Yet they made no move to interfere. " 

"The Other said something in a language that Will did not know, his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking."

"Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles."

***************************************************************************************

I think that Patchface is talking about the White Walkers when he says the crows are white as snow.  But why does he also call them crows?

Unlike the HBO version; the WW have a language and follow instruction. They are not mute.  Their armor shimmers like a glamor with the characteristic dappled pattern associated with the CotF making them all but invislble in the woods.  Is it coincidence that there are six WW and six known CotF (Ash, Black Knife, Coals, Scales, Snowylocks and Leaf?)  Leaf is the only one who actually speaks the common tongue.  The language that Will did not know, the true tongue, like the cracking of ice on a winter lake.  

Mance's glamor is similar to that of the WW glamored armor:

"The wildling wore a sleeveless jerkin of boiled leather dotted with bronze studs beneath a worn cloak mottled in shades of green and brown. He was cloaked in shadows too, in wisps of ragged grey mist, half-seen, sliding across his face and form with every step he took."  - aDwD Melisandre

She says a curious thing about Mance's glamor in aDwD Jon IV:

Melisandre spoke softly in a strange tongue.  The ruby at her throat throbbed slowly, and Jon saw that the smaller stone on Rattleshirt's wrist was brightening and darkkening as well.  "So long as he wears the gem he is bound to me, blood and soul," the red priestess said.  "This man will serve you faithfully. The flames do not lie, Lord Snow."

Could this mean that the WW are also bound body and soul to the one who creates the glamor they wear?

****************************************************************************************

"The merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed." - Patchface.

If the merwives are the Cotf wearing leaves in their hair; then weaving glamors of silver seaweed would fit the WW who blend into the shifting patterns of the forest, like moonlight on the water.  Which brings me back to the six known Cotf all of whom are silent except for Leaf. 

We suspect that the WW are Crastor's sons; whose blood is black stained with incest and the sins of the father; they are also called brothers and perhaps they are a form of brotherhood; not unlike the black brothers of the NW.  

So then could the WW could also be called crows.  If they are bound body and soul to the Cotf; are the WW like Euron sporting a drowned crow on their shoulders, doing their bidding? 

Given that almost every crow has been ridden by a CotF, or carries a revenant of one; we must suspect that they themselves are the crows and the ravens.  It makes the agenda of the CotF and the identity of the 3EC highly suspect.

******************************************************************************************

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its an interesting thesis and I can't help adding that the six white walkers in the prologue are paralleled by the six direwolves and the six children of Winterfell. I'm not quite so sure about the Children; although you've identified six by name can we really be sure that they are the only ones. Don't get me wrong, I think you're right in drawing these links and there is a crow connection in here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Its an interesting thesis and I can't help adding that the six white walkers in the prologue are paralleled by the six direwolves and the six children of Winterfell. I'm not quite so sure about the Children; although you've identified six by name can we really be sure that they are the only ones. Don't get me wrong, I think you're right in drawing these links and there is a crow connection in here.

There are definately more than these 6 Cotf but these seemed to be actively connected to Bran.   Some are enthroned in wierwood roots or should we say impaled? 

I wish I had an app for finding quotations because IIRC the crows peck at Bran and Jon when they hear the true tongue.  I associate it with the howling of direwolves in dreams and otherwise. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

There are definately more than these 6 Cotf but these seemed to be actively connected to Bran.   Some are enthroned in wierwood roots or should we say impaled? 

I wish I had an app for finding quotations because IIRC the crows peck at Bran and Jon when they hear the true tongue.  I associate it with the howling of direwolves in dreams and otherwise. 

As to the first, as I recall there is a difference between the active Singers and those Bran-in-Hodor discovers in a back room. The latter, seemingly dead at first are sleeping or perhaps more properly dreaming and if we were to look for "controllers" I'd look there rather than among the quick.

As to the second point I remain sure that the crows were luring Bran up the tower and while it was Jaime who gave him the shove after first rescuing him I think that's obscuring the fact that Bran was already falling and always intended to fall - by the crows.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/9/2016 at 4:26 PM, LynnS said:

I think that Patchface is talking about the White Walkers when he says the crows are white as snow.  But why does he also call them crows?

Because they are the white rangers who battle with the black rangers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/9/2016 at 10:26 AM, LynnS said:

"Under the sea, the crows are white as snow." - Patchface.

"A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood.  It stood in front of Royce, Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk.  Its armor seemed to change color as it moved, here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as a shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees.  The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took."

"They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first.  Three of them ... four ... five ... "

"Behind him, to right, to left, all around him, the watchers stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood.  Yet they made no move to interfere. " 

"The Other said something in a language that Will did not know, his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking."

"Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles."

***************************************************************************************

I think that Patchface is talking about the White Walkers when he says the crows are white as snow.  But why does he also call them crows?

Unlike the HBO version; the WW have a language and follow instruction. They are not mute.  Their armor shimmers like a glamor with the characteristic dappled pattern associated with the CotF making them all but invislble in the woods.  Is it coincidence that there are six WW and six known CotF (Ash, Black Knife, Coals, Scales, Snowylocks and Leaf?)  Leaf is the only one who actually speaks the common tongue.  The language that Will did not know, the true tongue, like the cracking of ice on a winter lake.  

Mance's glamor is similar to that of the WW glamored armor:

"The wildling wore a sleeveless jerkin of boiled leather dotted with bronze studs beneath a worn cloak mottled in shades of green and brown. He was cloaked in shadows too, in wisps of ragged grey mist, half-seen, sliding across his face and form with every step he took."  - aDwD Melisandre

She says a curious thing about Mance's glamor in aDwD Jon IV:

Melisandre spoke softly in a strange tongue.  The ruby at her throat throbbed slowly, and Jon saw that the smaller stone on Rattleshirt's wrist was brightening and darkkening as well.  "So long as he wears the gem he is bound to me, blood and soul," the red priestess said.  "This man will serve you faithfully. The flames do not lie, Lord Snow."

Could this mean that the WW are also bound body and soul to the one who creates the glamor they wear?

****************************************************************************************

"The merwives wear nennymoans in their hair and weave gowns of silver seaweed." - Patchface.

If the merwives are the Cotf wearing leaves in their hair; then weaving glamors of silver seaweed would fit the WW who blend into the shifting patterns of the forest, like moonlight on the water.  Which brings me back to the six known Cotf all of whom are silent except for Leaf. 

We suspect that the WW are Crastor's sons; whose blood is black stained with incest and the sins of the father; they are also called brothers and perhaps they are a form of brotherhood; not unlike the black brothers of the NW.  

So then could the WW could also be called crows.  If they are bound body and soul to the Cotf; are the WW like Euron sporting a drowned crow on their shoulders, doing their bidding? 

Given that almost every crow has been ridden by a CotF, or carries a revenant of one; we must suspect that they themselves are the crows and the ravens.  It makes the agenda of the CotF and the identity of the 3EC highly suspect.

******************************************************************************************

 

 

 

 

It is a tantalizing conclusion, but I don't think it's necessarily true. The north is underwater and subject to the Drowned God, but that doesn't automatically mean that Bloodraven and the Children are subjects or followers of Euron Greyjoy. Rather the outcome of their magics are subject to the effects of magic being released. The opening of the ward was done in such a way that the Drowned God was released. The mummer's version implicated the first White Walkers to be the creation of the Children...the second forging, the sword tempered in the heart of the lion, but I don't think there's enough evidence to also tie them to Euron. I believe Euron is Bloodraven's inversion, therefore if the white walkers belong to Bloodraven then they are not connected to Euron. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On the other hand....even if the Children created the White Walkers so long ago, it may be that they are not involved this time around, although your suggestion that there are six named Children and six White Walkers is compelling. They could be controlled by Euron using the magic of the Greyjoy's Drowned God, but again because Euron and Bloodraven are inversions of each other they cannot be working together.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

On the other hand....even if the Children created the White Walkers so long ago, it may be that they are not involved this time around, although your suggestion that there are six named Children and six White Walkers is compelling. They could be controlled by Euron using the magic of the Greyjoy's Drowned God, but again because Euron and Bloodraven are inversions of each other they cannot be working together.

This is why I'm not inclined to go along with suggestions that there are different factions of Singers working against each other; there are enough other parties striving for domination without requiring that complication.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

On the other hand....even if the Children created the White Walkers so long ago, it may be that they are not involved this time around, although your suggestion that there are six named Children and six White Walkers is compelling. They could be controlled by Euron using the magic of the Greyjoy's Drowned God, but again because Euron and Bloodraven are inversions of each other they cannot be working together.

I'm not actually referencing Euron specifically; I'm wondering if the WWs have a crow overseer, a crow perched on their shoulder, so to speak. Not unlike Mormont's raven.   I'm reminded that Moqorro says that the Drowned God is a thrall to the Other.  Is Bloodraven a 'drowned god'?

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm not actually referencing Euron specifically; I'm wondering if the WWs have a crow overseer, a crow perched on their shoulder, so to speak. Not unlike Mormont's raven.   I'm reminded that Moqorro says that the Drowned God is a thrall to the Other.  Is Bloodraven a 'drowned god'?

 

 

I don't think of Bloodraven as the drowned god. The Drowned God of the Ironborn was in the region of the Iron Islands and IMO became "drowned" during the first forging...the sword tempered in water. Nagga's ribs may have once been a grove of weirwoods with "evil" greenseers. I say "evil" if they were helping the Ironborn who would have been viewed as "Others" by the Children. Or Nagga could have been some great sea creature, sea dragon, or kraken, anything that the Ironborn worshipped or attributed to their god who was helping them in their struggles against the Children. If Bloodraven is aligned with the Children, then he's on the opposite side of the Drowned God. "Others" is an inclusive term and would include anyone that is not the Children or their allies.

I know the way I look at this is different than most, but I imagine an invisible door...one that used to cover the area of the Iron Islands, but now open and laying across the north placing (throwing?) the Drowned God over the north and releasing it's magic into the air instead of being contained under the waters of the Sunset Sea. Since the Drowned God is being carried everywhere in the north by the cold winds, it's like a blanket layered over everything making the north "under water". Bloodraven is technically under this water, so in this respect he is "drowned"...but he's always had greenseer powers both before and after the ward was opened. I don't think the ward that released the Drowned God's magic suppressed Bloodraven's abilities, but it is possible that it's changed them somehow.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A few more thoughts regarding the Drowned God...of course prior to the first sword tempered in water the Ironborn's god wasn't originally "drowned" or maybe even associated with water at all. It must have been something that gave the Ironborn their power, but when they were defeated their god became "drowned". The power was locked away and suppressed and the Ironborn believed it was under the water. IMO the hammer of waters separated the Ironborn from the mainland, and it wasn't until they built ships and began a lifestyle based on raiding did the people become the "Ironborn". They had a rebirth after the Children thought they had warded these Others, leading to the motto "what is dead can never die, but rises again harder and stronger".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 7:08 PM, LynnS said:

I'm not actually referencing Euron specifically; I'm wondering if the WWs have a crow overseer, a crow perched on their shoulder, so to speak. Not unlike Mormont's raven.   I'm reminded that Moqorro says that the Drowned God is a thrall to the Other.  Is Bloodraven a 'drowned god'?

As to the first, I'd be inclined to think so, although overseer might be too strong. I think, as I've suggested before, that the crows provide the necessary linkage between the Great Other and its servants and agents in the field so to speak.

I think that the Great Other does exist, but its not an individual, god or demon, but rather the collective consciousness at the root of Ice. In that sense the Drowned God, by whatever means it is manifested, might indeed be in thrall to the Great Other, but is only one aspect of Ice. If so Bloodraven is not a "drowned god" but in a hypothetical hierarchy of demons may be on a level with Euron. Its also worth bearing in mind GRRM's Catholic upbringing here and perhaps looking at Euron in the context of Lucifer. Not of himself a higher being with god-like powers, but aspiring to be even at the cost of a war in heaven - or hell.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

As to the first, I'd be inclined to think so, although overseer might be too strong. I think, as I've suggested before, that the crows provide the necessary linkage between the Great Other and its servants and agents in the field so to speak.

I think that the Great Other does exist, but its not an individual, god or demon, but rather the collective consciousness at the root of Ice. In that sense the Drowned God, by whatever means it is manifested, might indeed be in thrall to the Great Other, but is only one aspect of Ice. If so Bloodraven is not a "drowned god" but in a hypothetical hierarchy of demons may be on a level with Euron. Its also worth bearing in mind GRRM's Catholic upbringing here and perhaps looking at Euron in the context of Lucifer. Not of himself a higher being with god-like powers, but aspiring to be even at the cost of a war in heaven - or hell.

Melisandre seems to think that the Great Other has a specific identity.  "He" is the one whose name cannot be spoken.  Why can't it be spoken?    She is shown someone in the fire but dismisses it because it doesn't fit with her image of what the enemy should look like.

ETA:  I wonder is she saw Hodor 'who's name can't be spoken'.  That would be a twist on someone who is dead in the show; but not in the books.  LOL

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Melisandre seems to think that the Great Other has a specific identity.  "He" is the one whose name cannot be spoken.  Why can't it be spoken?    She is shown someone in the fire but dismisses it because it doesn't fit with her image of what the enemy should look like.

ETA:  I wonder is she saw Hodor 'who's name can't be spoken'.  That would be a twist on someone who is dead in the show; but not in the books.  LOL

Maybe it's like saying Beetlejuice three times? You don't want to attract the attention of the Great Other!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/13/2016 at 8:40 PM, LynnS said:

Melisandre seems to think that the Great Other has a specific identity.  "He" is the one whose name cannot be spoken.  Why can't it be spoken?    She is shown someone in the fire but dismisses it because it doesn't fit with her image of what the enemy should look like.

She does, but it aint necessarily so. After all in our world do you really believe God is an old man with a long white beard. We have after all been repeatedly warned on the gender business.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...