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Heresy 191 The Crows


Black Crow

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23 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Maybe it's like saying Beetlejuice three times? You don't want to attract the attention of the Great Other!

I prefer the old heretical joke that the reason why the name of the Great Other may never be spoken is because it is R'hllor.

:commie:

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Moving this out more broadly, this is another reason why I think its not a matter of recognising Jon Targaryen as Azor Ahai; the embodiment of Ice and Fire, and its wise mind balancing point.

If we turn to Fire there's actually a pretty big internal conflict going on although little remarked upon. Mel sees the Azor Ahau business in very simple terms. Azor Ahai is the hero of prophecy who is going to dish the Great Other, but is "he"? The prophecy comes from out east, it comes from a time when the Valyrians and their dragons were conquering the world; and it concerns a hero who slays monsters. The Prince that was Promised, which both Mel and Maester Aemon regard as one and the same, is believed to be a Targaryen; a house that has dragons but which turned against Valyria and after the Doom joined the coalition to prevent the empire rising from the ashes. Now both Maester Aemon and Master Benero, Mel's boss, have hailed Danaerys Targaryen as the Prince that was Promised/Azor Ahai and the latter expects her to destroy the last Valyrians behind the walls of Volantis. A good thing? We don't know, but right now its a conflict for supremacy within Fire [and light].

Turn North and again we have conflicts within Ice in its broader sense. We can identify various factions.The key here is that statement of Osha's: "Winter's got no king." That's why the likes of Euron is brake loose and why Winter needs a king.

Both Ice and Fire need Kings - Jon and Dany? to impose order on those internal conflicts and restore the stability of both. Only then, once the wars are ended, will balance be possible.

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18 hours ago, Black Crow said:

She does, but it aint necessarily so. After all in our world do you really believe God is an old man with a long white beard. We have after all been repeatedly warned on the gender business.

No I think it's entirely possible to get the gender wrong and I don't think we are looking for the 'kindly old man' god stereotype.   She think of both R'hllor and the Great Other as male and is emphatic that there is only one god.  The Other she characterizes as the ancient enemy.   I don't think I'd be surprised if we are talking about a duality in one godhead.  Or a trios-goddess in another.  I think what she is looking for is the manifestation of that power in a human agent.

I've imagined that the wierwood forest is one organism connected through it's root system; a symbiote with the the CotF/greenseers, the crows and ravens, their agents and the whole thing operates as the Great Other.  The names of the CotF can't be spoken either.

To me, the Night's King is a manifestation of the 3EC.  His name can't be spoken. Not just because it's stricken from the records; in which case, it's forbidden to know his name; but because the language required to speak it is lost.  The Thing that Comes in the Night is a story about someone appearing to the 'prentice boys in their dreams; each time with a different appearance. Three die after these appearances and one goes mad.  Perhaps they couldn't fly and died; child 'sacrifices' of the Night's King.  He gives his seed to the Night's Queen and binds his brothers with strange sorceries which conjures up Craster's sons;  the brothers bound with glamors and sorceries.

So when Mel is referring to the ancient enemy; the one whose name can't be spoken or the Faceless Men refer to the god of many faces; I think they are talking about a manifestation of the 3EC.   An office or function held by the Starks in trios fashion; an apprentice greenseer, faceless man and Night's King.  Euron fills the slot for the 'prentice boy who went mad.

 

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20 minutes ago, LynnS said:

No I think it's entirely possible to get the gender wrong and I don't think we are looking for the 'kindly old man' god stereotype.   She think of both R'hllor and the Great Other as male and is emphatic that there is only one god.  The Other she characterizes as the ancient enemy.   I don't think I'd be surprised if we are talking about a duality in one godhead.  Or a trios-goddess in another.  I think what she is looking for is the manifestation of that power in a human agent.

I've imagined that the wierwood forest is one organism connected through it's root system; a symbiote with the the CotF/greenseers, the crows and ravens, their agents and the whole thing operates as the Great Other.  The names of the CotF can't be spoken either.

To me, the Night's King is a manifestation of the 3EC.  His name can't be spoken. Not just because it's stricken from the records; in which case, it's forbidden to know his name; but because the language required to speak it is lost.  The Thing that Comes in the Night is a story about someone appearing to the 'prentice boys in their dreams; each time with a different appearance. Three die after these appearances and one goes mad.  Perhaps they couldn't fly and died; child 'sacrifices' of the Night's King.  He gives his seed to the Night's Queen and binds his brothers with strange sorceries which conjures up Craster's sons;  the brothers bound with glamors and sorceries.

So when Mel is referring to the ancient enemy; the one whose name can't be spoken or the Faceless Men refer to the god of many faces; I think they are talking about a manifestation of the 3EC.   An office or function held by the Starks in trios fashion; an apprentice greenseer, faceless man and Night's King.  Euron fills the slot for the 'prentice boy who went mad.

 

I agree with some of this up to a point. Mel I think is simply articulating her beliefs in imagining R'hllor and the Great Other as individuals, when in reality she is talking about Ice and Fire. Similarly the three-eyed-crow is not the god, faceless or otherwise but a manifestation of the godhead; the means by which it communicates through many faces only one of whom is a crow with three eyes.

 

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If R'hllor is a male diety, shouldn't the Great Other be female and connected with the moon? Dany was Drogo's moon while he was her sun and stars. Now it seems we have a female representing fire and a male representing ice placing opposing sexes with the dieties. 

Hopefully we aren't wandering too far off the path from the crow discussion? Are the crows and ravens on the same side? 

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42 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

If R'hllor is a male diety, shouldn't the Great Other be female and connected with the moon? Dany was Drogo's moon while he was her sun and stars. Now it seems we have a female representing fire and a male representing ice placing opposing sexes with the dieties. 

Hopefully we aren't wandering too far off the path from the crow discussion? Are the crows and ravens on the same side? 

Could be.  The role of crows/ravens is very mysterious to me.   I do find it curious that that the they pour out of the greenseer's cave in such numbers that Bran describes it as a black cloud.  His initial trip into the cave of the greenseer is also interesting in his description of the skulls, wolves, giants, CotF and half a dozen human skulls.    Some of the skulls have been placed in carved niches and all have roots growing around and through them.  Some have ravens sitting atop the skulls.  The remains of past greenseers? 

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

If R'hllor is a male diety, shouldn't the Great Other be female and connected with the moon? Dany was Drogo's moon while he was her sun and stars. Now it seems we have a female representing fire and a male representing ice placing opposing sexes with the dieties. 

Entirely possible - and consistent with their being different aspects of the same power, although its always necessary to bear in mind that in this particular game we're not dealing with deities but those who may or may not be acting in their name

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

 

Hopefully we aren't wandering too far off the path from the crow discussion? Are the crows and ravens on the same side? 

Not necessarily, because if we're arguing that the crows are players then we need to figure out the game we're playing. As I said earlier I'm not inclined to look for different factions amongst either the crows or the singers. They themselves are clearly linked, but there are other factions we might justifiably associate with Ice, who are not linked.

The question of crows and ravens is of itself an interesting one. So far as I recall the only overt conflict is between the white ravens used to announce winter and the ordinary workaday black ones, although to be fair neither do I recall crows and ravens sharing a scene.

All I can say is that with the exception of the Lord Commander's raven none of them are known to speak or do anything remarkable, while the crows seem to be a different matter.

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20 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

And did I mention the bit about Damphair complaining about the crows' association with the Storm God and the House Morrigen sigil confirming this by placing their crow volant sigil on a storm green sky.

Yes! You did.  Remember the bar sinister?

 

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Mel's view is Rh'llor is good and the Great Other is bad, and everyone else is on one side or the other.  This is an overly simple view, and won't turn out to be true.  Why so many theories about it?

 I don't think there is a Great Other, but I do think there is an ancient enemy, and the enemy is connected to BR, Ice and the Children.

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It depends on how you view enemies. Ice and Fire are opposed, yet notwithstanding Mel's righteous passion what GRRM has made very clear is that Fire is not the force for good and that this is not going to wind up with Azor Ahai turning up to save the day by defeating Ice.

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I have a little theory . 

What if the Shadow in Asshai is actually some kind of a Wall. Someone casted that shadow over Asshai a long time ago to keep something out. We hear rumors about demons and dragons roaming Asshai.

my theory is that the shadow is there to imprison demons and dragons and stuff . I think the these demons they talk about are fire beings who maybe roamed the world sometime , some kind of fire Others .

Maybe something happend a long time ago in Asshai and someone casted a large shadow over the place to keep fire monsters and dragons out of the world . The shadowbinders are the ones responsible for maintaining the shadow making sure nothing escapes . The shadowbinders are the Nights watch of Asshai . 

Of course they wasnt able to imprison all the dragons as the Valyrians had dragons . 

I think the reason Quathie wants Dany to Asshai is so that she can imprison the dragons in the Shadow. 

 

I know this is crackpot but it would be fun to hear your opinions . 

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17 minutes ago, LordImp said:

The shadowbinders are the Nights watch of Asshai . 

Oh I like this!

It seems that Dany may have some vision of Asshai at some point past or present as per the SSM.  I think that Quaithe's prophecy actually refers to the shadow beneath the Mother of Mountains at Vaes Dothrak.   It is so described once when Dany first goes there with Drogo.

The red lot shadowbinders as the NW of Asshai is very intriguing given the similarities between their daily prayer and the oath of the NW

I have the strange notion that Jon will bind the WW to his will with the horn of winter; once Sam repairs and returns it.  LOL.

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25 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Oh I like this!

It seems that Dany may have some vision of Asshai at some point past or present as per the SSM.  I think that Quaithe's prophecy actually refers to the shadow beneath the Mother of Mountains at Vaes Dothrak.   It is so described once when Dany first goes there with Drogo.

The red lot shadowbinders as the NW of Asshai is very intriguing given the similarities between their daily prayer and the oath of the NW

I have the strange notion that Jon will bind the WW to his will with the horn of winter; once Sam repairs and returns it.  LOL.

Jon binding WW to his will would be great. Im sure there is a twist when it comes to ww. 

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1 hour ago, LordImp said:

I have a little theory . 

What if the Shadow in Asshai is actually some kind of a Wall. Someone casted that shadow over Asshai a long time ago to keep something out. We hear rumors about demons and dragons roaming Asshai.

my theory is that the shadow is there to imprison demons and dragons and stuff . I think the these demons they talk about are fire beings who maybe roamed the world sometime , some kind of fire Others .

Maybe something happend a long time ago in Asshai and someone casted a large shadow over the place to keep fire monsters and dragons out of the world . The shadowbinders are the ones responsible for maintaining the shadow making sure nothing escapes . The shadowbinders are the Nights watch of Asshai . 

Of course they wasnt able to imprison all the dragons as the Valyrians had dragons . 

I think the reason Quathie wants Dany to Asshai is so that she can imprison the dragons in the Shadow. 

 

I know this is crackpot but it would be fun to hear your opinions . 

I don't think this is that far-fetched as I would expect an inversion to the Wall and the Watch for the fire side.

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50 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I don't think this is that far-fetched as I would expect an inversion to the Wall and the Watch for the fire side.

Its one of the curiosities of this that Mel needs to go to Asshai to learn the art and mystery of shadow-binding in order to be able to cast Stannis' shadows, and then in the World Book we learn that those seeking the mystery must not only pass under the shadow but literally go up the river and into the Heart of Darkness.

Conversely when Bran is taken [albeit in a vision] into the Heart of Winter, it is a blaze of Light.

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1 hour ago, LordImp said:

Jon binding WW to his will would be great. Im sure there is a twist when it comes to ww. 

I don't know about Jon binding them to his will in a magical sense, but surely his role as King of Winter will require him to bridle them.

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