Heresy 191 The Crows

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 191, the latest edition of the quirky thread where we take an in-depth look at the story and in particular what GRRM has referred to as the real conflict, not the Game of Thrones, but the apparent threat which lies in  the North, in the magical otherlands beyond the Wall. It’s called Heresy because we were the first to challenge the orthodoxy that the Wall is the last best hope of mankind; to question whether the three-fingered tree-huggers really are kindly elves and question too whether the Starks might have a dark secret in their past.

The strength and the beauty and ultimately the value of Heresy as a critical discussion group is that it reflects diversity and open-ness. This is a thread where ideas can be discussed – and argued – freely, because above all it is about an exchange of ideas and sometimes too a remarkably well informed exchange drawing upon an astonishing broad base of literature ranging through Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness and so many others all to the way to the Táin Bó Cúailnge and the Mabinogion.

If new to the thread, don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the many ideas we’ve discussed here over the years since it began in 2011. This is very much a come as you are thread with no previous experience required. We’re very welcoming and we’re very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask. You will neither be monstered, patronized nor directed to follow links, but will be engaged directly. Just be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour

We’ve been around for a while now and discussed an awful lot of stuff over the last five years. Some of it has been overtaken by events and some of it seemingly confirmed by the mummers’ version, but notwithstanding the occasional crack-pottery on the whole its been pretty good stuff and we’re pleased enough with what we’ve done to have a bit of a celebration. In the run-up to Heresy 100 we ran a series of specially commissioned essays focused on discrete aspects of heresy. Now, in the run-up to the Heresy bicentennial we are running a series of essays summarizing  what we’ve been discussing on particular aspects of Heresy. Some of it goes over old ground again, but other essays bring some new ideas to the table. The essays are just starters for 10 so while its hoped that we can focus the discussion on them, that’s not to be considered as prescriptive, to paraphrase GRRM himself, Heresy is a matter of gardening, not architecture.

And so without further ado we’ll start with the Crows…

[Black Crow]

THE CROWS

Crows appear in a number of guises throughout the story and figure in it so prominently that serious consideration needs to be given as to their true role and indeed whether they too are players in the Song of Ice and Fire.

In terms of large black birds with big beaks, they are of course ubiquitous both as crows and as the ravens used in Martin’s world for communication, who are also of the genus corvidae, ie; members of the crow family.

We’ll begin with the ravens, who we first encounter as oversized homing pigeons carrying what sometimes appears to be an improbably large file of correspondence from castle to castle – pigeons would probably never got off the ground with the size of some of the messages.

However, in the World Book extract there’s a hint of something more:

Though considered disreputable in this, our present day, a fragment of Septon Barth’s Unnatural History has proved a source of controversy in the halls of the Citadel. Claiming to have consulted with texts said to be preserved at Castle Black, Septon Barth put forth that the children of the forest could speak with ravens, and could make them repeat their words. According to Barth, this higher mystery was taught to the First Men by the children so that ravens could spread messages at a great distance. It was passed in “degraded” form, down to the masters today, who no longer know how to speak to the birds. It is true that our order understands the speech of ravens, but this means the basic purposes of their cawing and rasping, their signs of fear and anger, and the means by which they display their readiness to mate or their lack of health.

Ravens are among the cleverest of birds, but they are no wiser than infant children, and considerably less capable of true speech, whatever Septon Barth might have believed. A few masters devoted to the link of Valyrian steel, have argued that Barth was correct, but not a one was able to prove his claims regarding speech between men and ravens.

Nothing of course is as it seems in Martin’s World and the stout denials in Trouserless Bob’s book have rather the opposite effect in suggesting that the business of literally being able to talk is in fact true.

We see this of course in the Lord Commander’s raven, perched first on Mormont’s shoulder and then Jon’s – which tempts the thought that once it may have perched on Qorgyle’s shoulder.

The conventional explanation is that the raven in question is being warged or skinchanged by Bloodraven. This is certainly possible but I’m wary of that being so given that Bloodraven’s normal modus operandi is, or appears to be, to come in dreams as the three-eyed crow. This is a subject in itself, but before delving into it there’s also the question of the Singers and the Crows.

There was as we know a big intervention by a large number of crows when Sam and Gilly were rescued from Small Paul and his cold dead mates at the village which wasn’t called Whitetree. The show is more than a bit ambiguous here in that anyone who hasn’t read the books could easily come away with the impression that the crows led Ser Puddles to the village and then pursued Sam and Gilly afterwards. Otherwise the conventional explanation is that they are being warged or skinchanged by Bloodraven.

Again I’m very wary of this. Warging one crow is credible enough, a whole flock of them is something else entirely and dangerously close to the godlike intervention Martin has reassured us won’t happen. On the other hand there is a possible parallel with the wights, who appear to be susceptible to a degree of basic control at the “follow me” or “go there and kill” sort of level.

That may be what is happening here, but once again there seems to be a close association with the Singers. Crows, unlike bats, do not live in caves, yet there are a large number of them in the Cave of Skulls (not a canonical name I know, but everybody instantly recognises it) hence the earlier suggestion, which I wholeheartedly endorse, that Crows may be to Singers what Direwolves are to Starks; that it is a warging relationship not common skinchanging; and that to paraphrase "Part of the Singer is the Crow, and part of the Crow is the Singer.".

Such a symbiotic relationship may also explain, at least in part, the mystery of the Three-eyed-Crow; why what we assume to be Bloodraven appears in Bran’s dreams as a Crow in the first place, rather than say a kindly old man, and then of course Bloodraven’s curious vagueness when directly questioned on this by Bran.

“Are you the three-eyed crow?” Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

“A… crow?” The pale lord’s voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. “Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood.” The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. “I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you…except in dreams.”

Its odd because although he has been watching Bran and coming to him in dreams – supposedly long before he fell – he effectively denies at the outset that he is the Crow; “Once, aye” is the opposite of yes. He was “Black of garb and black of blood” he was a crow of the Nights watch, not a three-eyed crow.

Nevertheless, if we admit a “personal” relationship between the Singers and the Crows and remember that Bloodraven is actually a Blackwood of Raventree Hall, it is easy to see that he himself is linked to the Singers through his Blackwood blood and the Crows on the Raventree weirwood – in exactly the same way that the Starks of Winterfell are linked to direwolves. Thus, perhaps, his vagueness as to whether he is the Three-eyed-Crow does not necessarily imply that he may not be the Crow, but rather that he is unaware or uncaring that this is how he manifests himself in communicating.

In discussing Crows as players it would be remiss not to mention the Morrigan, which first came into our discussions when I noticed the possible connection between a crow with three eyes and a crow goddess with three aspects. (maiden, mother and crone) That in turn led to recognition of the House Morrigen cookie: Storm Lords whose seat is the Crow’s Nest and whose sigil is a crow in flight against a storm green sky. In terms of subtlety that’s about nuanced as a train crash, given that Damphair distrusts ravens because they belong to the Storm God and the Crow Goddess is also associated with storms and in particular with the wind, hence bean sidhe, or banshee.

In this connection it’s also worth remembering  the first Catelyn chapter in Storm of Swords, where she's gone into a sept to pray for her father: "...and lit a candle to the Father Above for her own father's sake, a second to the Crone, who let the first raven into the world when she peered through the door of death, and a third to the Mother..."

On balance, tempting though it is in so many ways to look for evidence of an actual Morrigan, ultimately this is GRRM’s story and I think that the Morrigan reference is significant not as indicating the presence of such a deity but rather in emphasising the real importance of the Crows, as players, just as important if not more so than the direwolves and capable of serving as the interpreters who understand the speech both of Singers and of Men.

In closing, a final point concerns the white ravens who announce Winter and seemingly don’t get on with their black cousins. This I think may hark back to the business of Bran naming his direwolf Summer; that achieving a balance between Ice and Fire requires both a King of Winter and a Summer King with their respective direwolves and ravens.

[LynnS]

Thank you for starting us off on this discussion BC!  I'm very curious about the crows and the Morrigan.  I'm not sure that I understand it very well and I'd like to know what people think about it.  I think that Dany is representative of the Morrigan in some way.  She is for all intents and purposes a crone.  All Khalessi's go to Vaes Dothrak and join the crones when their husbands die.  As we learn from Catelyn, the crone is represented carrying a lantern. In other words  bringing the light or lighting the way.   Light representing truth and wisdom. This comes up in the House of the Undying where she seeks the truth.

When Quaithe tells Dany that she must go back to go forward; I think she means that Dany must go back to Vaes Dothrak to pass beneath the shadow and touch the light.  In this case, Quaithe is referring to the shadow beneath the Mother of Mountains; the Dothraki high holy place and the exclusive domain of the crones. We have another glimpse of this in the House of Undying:

Beneath the Mother of Mountains, a line of naked crones crept from a great lake and knelt shivering before her, their grey heads bowed.

The line of crones suggests the passage of time down through the generations and a reverence for Dany that could imply that she is the original mother of 'mountains'.   She is also the daughter of death (the maiden), the bride of fire/mother of dragons (the mother) and the slayer of lies (the crone).

This could actually point to Dany as the Prince who is Promised; Light-bringer but not in the sense that we imagine it so far.

I have to run off for errands and such; but will check in later.

 

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Woohoo!

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

The line of crones suggests the passage of time down through the generations and a reverence for Dany that could imply that she is the original mother of 'mountains'.   She is also the daughter of death (the maiden), the bride of fire/mother of dragons (the mother) and the slayer of lies (the crone).

This could actually point to Dany as the Prince who is Promised; Light-bringer but not in the sense that we imagine it so far.

Interesting one. I think that it could work, but then GRRM does like to recycle and repeat themes and here we definitely seem to be looking at something rooted deeply in Westeros.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

12 hours ago, Black Crow said:

...a final point concerns the white ravens who announce Winter and seemingly don’t get on with their black cousins.

We would be remiss, as well, not to touch on the clear suggestions in the text that Archmaester Walgrave - the guy who (apparently) genetically engineered these white ravens - is himself a skinchanger of the birds.  Given the number of them he keeps, it does seem possible that he might skinchange the entire conspiracy at once... though we can only speculate, for now.  

A couple of long-lost musings on this issue:

 

[LynnS]

22 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Interesting one. I think that it could work, but then GRRM does like to recycle and repeat themes and here we definitely seem to be looking at something rooted deeply in Westeros.

I'm searching online for something on the Morrigan, that I think is relevant to wolves, horses crows etc and the interpretation that the Morrigan protected a prince that seemed to fit with the story.  If I come across it again, I'll post it.

I do think Dany is part of the fire and ice equation.  If she follows Quaithe's instructions to travel east until she gets to Westeros and then travels south from Starfall to the Wall; I can see her being the 'deliverer' of the Dawn (sword) to the warrior who merits such a weapon.   I don't think Jon is or has to be the son Rhaegar and Lyanna to claim it.  He just has to climb out of the heart of darkness and his own dark path as the dark horned lord  and soar as high as honor.

I'm sorry, I know this isn't about the crows and the ravens; but I don't know how to address the subject other than my own thoughts on the Morrigan.  Since you put me onto the Heart of Darkness; I've wondered about the symbolism of the waycastles at the Eyrie and the stations in the HoD.   I'm anticipating that Jon will become Bran's instrument.

• Stone, the first waycastle. The path to it is surrounded by forest. It has a massive ironbound gate. The stone walls are crowned with iron spikes and its two fat round towers raise above the keep.^[2]
• Snow, the second waycastle. The trail to it is steeper than that of Stone. It consists of a single fortified tower, a timber keep, and a stable placed behind a low wall of unmortared rock. It is nestled into the Giant's Lance so as to command the entire pathway from Stone to Snow.^[2]
• Sky, the third waycastle. The path to it is treacherous. It is open to the wind and the steps are cracked and broken from the constant freezing. Sky is a high, crescent-shaped wall of unmortared stone raised against the side of the mountain. Inside the walls are a series of ramps and a great tumble of boulders and stones of all sizes, ready to throw down or even cause a minor avalanche. There is a cavern containing a long natural hall, stables, and supplies. Handholds carved into the rock lead to the Eyrie, while earthen ramps give access to the walls.^[2] The Eyrie is located six hundred feet above this point.^[9]
•  

Stone and Snow are bastard names and I've wondered about Ned's comment to Robert in the crypts that "Lyanna was... (pause) fond of flowers".  Flowers is another bastard name and Maester Walys disappears with Lyanna about the same time.  If Jon is indeed a son of Lyanna and Robert; then he would be a Snow and a Storm.  And isn't that what we are about to get at the Wall.  This also aligns Jon with the Gardener imagery through the Baratheons of green armor and golden horns (noting fully that GRRM said he was a gardener and not an architect).  Not to mention the Gardener crown of grass and flowers (corona obsidionalis?).  My crib notes on the 'architecture':

The Eyrie symbolic of an eagle's nest situated on top of the highest mountain in the land; the Giant's Lance. Perhaps some symbolism related to Rhaegar and his lance at the ToH.  The statue of the weeping woman, struck on the thigh and the arm, pushed over onto the ground... a story about Lyanna perhaps.   The bloody gate and the moon gate, symbolic of penetration and pregnancy or the female monthly cycle.  The "angel falls" (fallen angel), Alyssa's Tears reminiscent of Lyssa Arryn's disastrous liaison with a Bael-ish type character.    A child on a weirwood throne and the moon door'; Bran and the Black Gate.

The forging of Ned's character, the importance of honor, the pledge to protect, the code he lives by and passes on to Jon; takes place at the Eyrie.  Ned's names Jon after his surrogate father, Jon Arryn suggesting that Ned is also a surrogate father.  The region called the Vale; symbolic of things that are hidden or veiled. 

Also noteworthy  is the Quiet Isle located on the Saltpans; where honey bees are kept and where visitor lodges are shaped like bee-hives and smoke pours through their smoke holes.  Literally a place of salt and smoke.  Also a place where noble ladies have in the past been taken to have their injuries or 'illnesses' attended.  A brotherhood that observes a vow of silence.  A backwater smuggler's port where ships sometimes take on passengers.

Sorry this is way off topic and hope someone else will bring me back to the OP soon.  LOL

 

 

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

I think that Dany is representative of the Morrigan in some way.  She is for all intents and purposes a crone...

As Dany herself says, just before lighting Drogo's funeral pyre:

Quote

"You will be my khalasar," she told them. "I see the faces of slaves. I free you. Take off your collars. Go if you wish, no one shall harm you. If you stay, it will be as brothers and sisters, husbands and wives." The black eyes watched her, wary, expressionless. "I see the children, women, the wrinkled faces of the aged. I was a child yesterday. Today I am a woman. Tomorrow I will be old. To each of you I say, give me your hands and your hearts, and there will always be a place for you." 

Maiden, mother and crone?  (The dragon has three heads.)

 

[LynnS]

58 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

As Dany herself says, just before lighting Drogo's funeral pyre:

Maiden, mother and crone?  (The dragon has three heads.)

 

That's seems to be straightforward enough. She's the Great Queen

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

As Dany herself says, just before lighting Drogo's funeral pyre:

Maiden, mother and crone?  (The dragon has three heads.)

 

Oh, I like that.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

16 minutes ago, LynnS said:

That's seems to be straightforward enough. She's the Great Queen

Yes, that comment takes place in the context of Dany claiming her queenship... just after she insists that Jorah Mormont recognize her status as queen (not "princess"), and just before she names him the first of her "Queensguard."  There's a good bit going on right there, with respect to that theme.

17 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Oh, I like that.

There is also a good bit of precedent (in feminist lit crit, anyway) for associating the dragon with the mythical female - so in that sense, perhaps the Morrigan, and the dragon with its three heads, really are only this one step apart.  

Now, whether that translates to the in-story of that (apparently) prophetic phrase... who knows?  Seems like Martin could take that in some other direction.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Among other signs that Archmaester Walgrave maintains a "third eye" connection to his white ravens:

Quote

The white ravens knew his name, and would mutter it to each other whenever they caught sight of him, "Pate, Pate, Pate," until he wanted to scream. The big white birds were Archmaester Walgrave's pride. He wanted them to eat him when he died, but Pate half suspected that they meant to eat him too. (AFFC Prologue, Pate)

 

Similar to Varamyr's reflections:

Quote

His wolves, though...

My brothers. My pack. Many a cold night he had slept with his wolves, their shaggy bodies piled up around him to help keep him warm. When I die they will feast upon my flesh and leave only bones to greet the thaw come spring. The thought was queerly comforting. His wolves had often foraged for him as they roamed; it seemed only fitting that he should feed them in the end. He might well begin his second life tearing at the warm dead flesh of his own corpse. (ADWD Prologue, Varamyr)

 

 

And again, using information from Varamyr's Prologue :

Quote

Other beasts were best left alone, [Haggon] the hunter had declared. Cats were vain and cruel, always ready to turn on you. Elk and deer were prey; wear their skins too long, and even the bravest man became a coward. Bears, boars, badgers, weasels... Haggon did not hold with such. "Some skins you never want to wear, boy. You won't like what you'd become." Birds were the worst, to hear him tell it. "Men were not meant to leave the earth. Spend too much time in the clouds and you never want to come back down again. I know skinchangers who've tried hawks, owls, ravens. Even in their own skins, they sit moony, staring up at the bloody blue."  (ADWD Prologue, Varamyr)

 

...we may inform ourselves as to Archmaester Walgrave's situation:

Quote

Everyone said that Walgrave had forgotten more of ravencraft than most maesters ever knew, so Pate assumed a black iron link was the least that he could hope for, only to find that Walgrave could not grant him one. The old man remained an archmaester only by courtesy. As great a maester as once he'd been, now his robes concealed soiled smallclothes oft as not, and half a year ago some acolytes found him weeping in the Library, unable to find his way back to his chambers.  ...

Archmaester Walgrave had no trouble telling one raven from another, but he was not so good with people. Some days he seemed to think Pate was someone named Cressen.  (AFFC Prologue, Pate)

The connection to Cressen there is an interesting one as well, of course.  The fact that Walgrave confuses young Pate with a maester who died at the ripe old age of 80 years... indicates that this Archmaester has been around quite a while.

And of course, Lady Barbrey Dustin tells us later in ADWD that Walgraves' bastard son Walys was the maester at Winterfell, prior to Robert's Rebellion - and she's quite convinced that it was this Walys who floated ideas of a southern alliance-by-marriage to Lord Rickard. 

The idea of a skinchanging Archmaester of Ravenry - presumably the Citadel's Postmaster - is quite intriguing.

[ravenous reader]

15 hours ago, Black Crow said:

We see this of course in the Lord Commander’s raven, perched first on Mormont’s shoulder and then Jon’s – which tempts the thought that once it may have perched on Qorgyle’s shoulder.

The conventional explanation is that the raven in question is being warged or skinchanged by Bloodraven. This is certainly possible but I’m wary of that being so given that Bloodraven’s normal modus operandi is, or appears to be, to come in dreams as the three-eyed crow. This is a subject in itself, but before delving into it there’s also the question of the Singers and the Crows.

There was as we know a big intervention by a large number of crows when Sam and Gilly were rescued from Small Paul and his cold dead mates at the village which wasn’t called Whitetree. The show is more than a bit ambiguous here in that anyone who hasn’t read the books could easily come away with the impression that the crows led Ser Puddles to the village and then pursued Sam and Gilly afterwards. Otherwise the conventional explanation is that they are being warged or skinchanged by Bloodraven.

Again I’m very wary of this. Warging one crow is credible enough, a whole flock of them is something else entirely and dangerously close to the godlike intervention Martin has reassured us won’t happen. On the other hand there is a possible parallel with the wights, who appear to be susceptible to a degree of basic control at the “follow me” or “go there and kill” sort of level.

Mormont's raven is called that 'bloody bird' in disparagement by Chett and the rest of the conspirators planning to murder Mormont and co.  'Bloody'+'Bird'= Bloodraven. In that particular passage Paul also expresses concern that the talking bird is listening to their plans and will tell on them to someone!  Think of ravens or crows as 'little birds' functioning as ears and eyes to report back to the chief raven in the hierarchy.  The weirwood's leaves are also described as 'bloody' or 'blood-stained' hands, hinting at Bloodraven, himself a former Hand of many Kings, who got his hands dirty on many an occasion, often implicating himself in murder, even kinslaying.  I'm not sure why you're so affronted by the idea of someone pulling the strings, and orchestrating events behind the scenes (he's not the only one doing this, so he's bound to have resistance from other factions e.g. Euron who have the same ambition, creating tension where otherwise there might have been none).  Think of the birds, like the leaves, working in tandem (the way a whole flock of birds will swarm this way and that across the sky in uncanny unison, or the sardines in a sardine rush seem to forego their individuality swimming in formation, even avoiding seals and other predators as if operating with one mind).  All these proxies serve as hands of the king, Bloodraven being a kind of defacto king, the way Tywin also was.  And, as I recall, Tywin also had many proxies or disembodied hands or catspaws to do his bidding.  Bloodraven just has more magic at his disposal, rather than relying solely on political machinations.

A note on GRRM's godlike intervention:  Although he assures us there is no such thing, I've noticed his penchant for dispensing poetic justice or karmic retribution to those he deems as despicable, or having egregiously transgressed in some fashion.  For example, Jaime slays Aerys and throws Bran; in return, he loses the hand with which he committed these crimes.  Cocky Theon betrays Winterfell; in return for his cockiness, he loses his **** and ends up kinslaying when he murders the Miller's Boys (another symbolic castration).  Chett etc. threaten to eat 'that bloody bird' and kill their own brothers; in return, they are fed upon by ravens (i.e. as the kin of crows, their 'poor cousins,' symbolically their own (Night's Watch) brothers).  The Freys break the taboo of guest right at a feast after giving Robb and co. false assurances (i.e. they tell lies); in return, they are served a dish of their own, get a taste of their own medicine, in the form of Manderley's 'pork pies' (Cockney rhyming slang for 'lies').  Cersei tossed her 'friend' Melara down a well in order to silence her, believing that if none could repeat the prophecy it wouldn't come true; in return, the prophecy is demanding expression and Cersei is likely to be strangled (i.e. silenced herself, perhaps she'll even drown in her own juices, considering Lannisters love drowning their enemies). Sansa betrayed her family; in return she lost her wolf and became symbolically ousted from the pack with a string of new totem identities (including 'little bird/dove/mockingbird,' lion, stone). I could go on... This could become its own topic!  Bloodraven and the like (including winds, wolves, trees, snows, fogs, crows, ravens, bears, moons, meteors, and all the rest) are just the means used to dispense this divine justice as decreed by Martyn the Maege.  'The Old Gods are listening' means none other than that GRRM has something in store in return for those who disturb his idea of moral order.

15 hours ago, Black Crow said:

the mystery of the Three-eyed-Crow; why what we assume to be Bloodraven appears in Bran’s dreams as a Crow in the first place, rather than say a kindly old man, and then of course Bloodraven’s curious vagueness when directly questioned on this by Bran.

“Are you the three-eyed crow?” Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight. Where his other eye should have been, a thin white root grew from an empty socket, down his cheek, and into his neck.

“A… crow?” The pale lord’s voice was dry. His lips moved slowly, as if they had forgotten how to form words. “Once, aye. Black of garb and black of blood.” The clothes he wore were rotten and faded, spotted with moss and eaten through with worms, but once they had been black. “I have been many things, Bran. Now I am as you see me, and now you will understand why I could not come to you…except in dreams.”

Its odd because although he has been watching Bran and coming to him in dreams – supposedly long before he fell – he effectively denies at the outset that he is the Crow; “Once, aye” is the opposite of yes. He was “Black of garb and black of blood” he was a crow of the Nights watch, not a three-eyed crow.

Nevertheless, if we admit a “personal” relationship between the Singers and the Crows and remember that Bloodraven is actually a Blackwood of Raventree Hall, it is easy to see that he himself is linked to the Singers through his Blackwood blood and the Crows on the Raventree weirwood – in exactly the same way that the Starks of Winterfell are linked to direwolves. Thus, perhaps, his vagueness as to whether he is the Three-eyed-Crow does not necessarily imply that he may not be the Crow, but rather that he is unaware or uncaring that this is how he manifests himself in communicating.

Regarding 'the mystery of the three-eyed crow,' @Little Scribe of Naath made the interesting suggestion that perhaps one may appear as an unknown avatar in the 'third-eye' plane of consciousness in other people's dreams, while appearing to oneself as another type of avatar in ones own dreams.  For example, Bran appears to have contacted Jon via the 'three-eyed sapling' avatar in Jon's dream.  However, when he relates this experience to his companions who are hiding out with him in the Winterfell crypt, he doesn't seem to be aware that he had appeared to Jon as a weirwood sapling, indicating instead that he had contacted Jon by reaching out to Summer (from which I'm assuming Bran believes both he and Jon were present to each other as their wolves).  Perhaps in a similar vein, Bloodraven doesn't realise that he appeared to Bran as a three-eyed crow in Bran's so-called 'coma dream'; perhaps he appears to himself in his own dreams as a dragon (considering his Targaryen blood) not a crow, so he was somewhat taken aback!)

@The Snowfyre Chorus I love everything you wrote!  And nice textual examples.  Indeed, the acquisition of skinchanging seems to be tied up with paying a price, a sacrifice entailing losing a bit of oneself, as Jojen warns Bran will happen to him if he spends too much time in his wolf:

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Bran I

Even when he went outside they could hear him through the walls, bellowing "HODOR!" as he cut and slashed at his tree. Thankfully the wolfswood was huge, and there was not like to be anyone else around to hear.

"Jojen, what did you mean about a teacher?" Bran asked. "You're my teacher. I know I never marked the tree, but I will the next time. My third eye is open like you wanted . . ."

"So wide open that I fear you may fall through it, and live all the rest of your days as a wolf of the woods."

It reminds me of Beric's description of the toll his successive resurrections have taken on him:

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ASOS-Arya VII

Can I dwell on what I scarce remember? I held a castle on the Marches once, and there was a woman I was pledged to marry, but I could not find that castle today, nor tell you the color of that woman’s hair. Who knighted me, old friend? What were my favorite foods? It all fades. Sometimes I think I was born on the bloody grass in that grove of ash, with the taste of fire in my mouth and a hole in my chest. Are you my mother, Thoros?

Arya stared at the Myrish priest, all shaggy hair and pink rags and bits of old armor. Grey stubble covered his cheeks and the sagging skin beneath his chin. He did not look much like the wizards in Old Nan's stories, but even so . . .

The progressive deterioration of memory and loss of identity in Dondarrion's and Maester Walgrave's cases is what we might call Dementia in modern parlance.  Dondarrion also says bitterly, 'Fire consumes until there's nothing left,' a bit like ravens or ravenous wolves devouring the skinchanger, figuratively and perhaps even literally.

[PrettyPig]

A bit on ravens....

As most already know, ravens in real-world are referred to as "wolf-birds" because they have a symbiotic relationship with wolves. Wolf kills provide food for the ravens, and ravens serve as eyes and ears for the wolves to which they are partnered.

Ravens also have significance in multiple religions, including this interesting bit from Judaism:

"Aside from the social and symbiotic relationship between wolves and ravens, there is another connection between them. The Hebrew name for raven, orev, is comprised of the same letters as the word erev, dusk.   Dusk is the time so epitomized by wolves that they are repeatedly referred to as "the wolves of dusk".   According to some they are referred to solely by the name "dusky" in the Egyptian plague, the same word used as the name of the raven. The Midrash, a commentary on part of the Hebrew scriptures, also records a view that that the Egyptian plague of arov was comprised of ravens and other such birds, but another view maintains that it was both wolves and ravens.

The etymology of the name orev for raven is simple to explain in terms of the raven's black plumage, reminiscent of the onset of night.   But one can also see other ways in which the raven is related to this word:   Erev, or dusk, is the time when day mixes with night. In fact, the word for mixture in Hebrew is ervuv. Ravens are a mixture in that they are the only bird to possess two of the signs of kosher birds as well as two of the signs of non-kosher birds – a true mixture.

The Midrash notes that the raven also has a tendency to mix even when mixing is forbidden: "There were three that engaged in sexual relations while in the Ark: Ham, the raven, and the dog." (Talmud, Sanhedrin 108b)    Males and females of all species were to remain separate for the duration of their stay on the Ark, but the ravens negated this, mingling together and mating. Perhaps it is for this reason that the chieftains of Midian are called Ze'ev and Orev by the Torah. The crime of Midian was to send their girls to mix and intermingle with the Jewish People. Ravens and wolves are both creatures that represent dusk, the mixture of light and dark, and also mixing in general. Furthermore they mix with each other, mammal with bird. The dusky ravens and wolves of dusk are both symbols of the mixing of two distinct realms."

 

Now on the subject of ravens mixing with wolves, both being liminal creatures, I wanted to touch on something dropped into an old SSM that seems like nothing, but in context of birds takes on new meaning.

December 15, 2000
About Benjen Stark
Submitted By: Michael
I was wondering if you would comment on Benjen Stark's fighting ability. Is he on a level with Brandon, or is he more like Ned?

Depends on the kind of fight you had in mind.
Brandon was the best of the Starks with sword in hand, and the best jouster as well. But Benjen has other skills that serve him well as a ranger... and Ned was likely the best battle commander.

 

Other skills that serve Benjen as a ranger - scouting, tracking, navigating.    If you take the bolded as a strong hint that Benjen has some kind of special ability, would it be out of the realm of possibility to believe that the "wolf pup" perhaps has a corvid companion?    Benjen as First Ranger is the Planetos version of Heimdall, guardian of the Bifrost bridge of Asgard in Norse mythology - and in the mythology, the reason Odin chose Heimdall for the position is his possession of extraordinary senses, mainly sight and hearing, that allow him to observe things that are happening far away.

If you are a First Ranger, guardian of the Wall, and were in need of some kind of animal familiar, what creature would give you advanced abilities of sight and hearing that would allow you to observe things at great distance?

A BIRD.   A wolf and a raven, operating in tandem.

I also find it interesting that we readers are not introduced to Mormont's talking raven until after Benjen has left for the ranging - and the talking is limited to single repeated words: corn, duel, etc.   Immediately before, Jon is thinking about Benjen's departure.

"Benjen Stark frowned. "A boy you are, and a boy you'll remain until Ser Alliser says you are fit to be a man of the Night's Watch. If you thought your Stark blood would win you easy favors, you were wrong. We put aside our old families when we swear our vows. Your father will always have a place in my heart, but these are my brothers now." He gestured with his dagger at the men around them, all the hard cold men in black.

Jon rose at dawn the next day to watch his uncle leave. One of his rangers, a big ugly man, sang a bawdy song as he saddled his garron, his breath steaming in the cold morning air. Ben Stark smiled at that, but he had no smile for his nephew. "How often must I tell you no, Jon? We'll speak when I return."

As he watched his uncle lead his horse into the tunnel, Jon had remembered the things that Tyrion Lannister told him on the kingsroad, and in his mind's eye he saw Ben Stark lying dead, his blood red on the snow. The thought made him sick. What was he becoming?"

So, Jon has a creepy premonition about Benjen's death.   Then two chapters later, there's this:
"The thought of Benjen Stark saddened him; his uncle was still missing. The Old Bear had sent out rangers in search of him. Ser Jaremy Rykker had led two sweeps, and Quorin Halfhand had gone forth from the Shadow Tower, but they'd found nothing aside from a few blazes in the trees that his uncle had left to mark his way. In the stony highlands to the northwest, the marks stopped abruptly and all trace of Ben Stark vanished."

Jon's next chapter, he's about to swear his vows, and talks with Aemon about making Sam a steward, to help with the ravens.   Mormont's raven begins spouting new words it's never said before...in Jon's presence.
The next chapter, Jon is made a steward to Mormont, says his vows at the weirwood, and Ghost finds the hand on the way back. It is almost 6 months after Benjen's departure.
It is at this point that Mormont's raven starts getting really chatty - particularly to/about Jon - and is stringing together words and/or choosing words from the middle of sentences to repeat rather than lingering end words.

 

GRRM in some fan convo gave a cryptic "Interesting idea" or cagey smirk or some other non-answer when asked by a fan if Mormont's raven was being skinchanged, which along with the above leads me to believe that wolf and raven, from two distinct realms, were indeed working together...and when the bond was broken due to the death (?) of the wolf, the raven found another.  Black of wing needs a wolf in black of cloak.    This begs the question:  if true, what was the symbiotic relationship that was in place, and will it further develop with Jon?  He seems to be doing a deliberate tuning out of much of the raven-speech.

 

 

[wolfmaid7]

Its is great to see this up...Wonderful essay BC in all.

I still don't believe BR and his posse has anything to do with the 3ec,but it occured to be that its possible that like BR being a mouth piece and figure head of that collective.Its possible that the crow is the same,a visual representation of a collective.

Now unto what i like and hope to explore futher is the similarity with regard to the Great goddess the Dark Mother herself  "The Morrigan"

We have seen three prominat symbols associated with her apart of Jon somehow.

1.The crow/raven that sits on his shoulder like an adviser and the one whose appearence form the black kettle seals him being chosen as LC.

2.The wolf who is his shadow a part of him that in SOS when he is finally seen with Ghost again almost completes Jon in the eyes of others

3The Moon that calls and chases him in his dream.

More to write on this later.But great job.

[Black Crow]

Couple of very good posts from Ravenous, and particularly from Pretty pig on the association between crows and wolves. Something I'd add to that is that the Blackwoods of Raventree Hall once ruled the Wolfswood which does indeed point to GRRM knowing of it - and using it.

That Bloodraven/Bryn Blackwood not knowing he appears in other people's dreams as a crow is something we've discussed before in Heresy and on a slight tangent is Bran Stark aware that he appears in Melisandre's visions as a wolf, or rather as flickering back and forth between boy and wolf. 

I didn't mean to suggest above that Bloodraven isn't skinchanging the Lord Commander's raven. I just don't think that its as straightforward as that; there isn't a master/slave relationship there as we see with Varamyr, but rather something more of a shared consciousness in which the raven is far more than just a puppet.

[Brad Stark]

I never thought there was much mystery about the crows rescuing Sam and Gilly.  In the cave of skulls, we learn all the birds have singers in them.  BR couldn't control all the birds, but he didn't need to, the singers did.

[Black Crow]

They were long dead ones according to Bloodraven, which is a mystery in itself, and only their shadows remained. The crow Bran skinchanged into was very muchthe one  in charge and allowed him to. The singer was just a shadow in the background.

[Brad Stark]

I've thought a lot about Moremont's Raven, it doesn't make sense to me.  We are lead to believe the bird is important, possibly contrlled by BR or someone else, yet half the time he just says something like 'corn'.  It would be GRRMlike if this were a play on words, and the raven was really saying something else, but nothing fits and it feels like I am overthinking.

[Black Crow]

It has been suggested on heresy in times past that its an allusion to the Corn King.