Theon really a eunuch?

[The Drunkard]

2 hours ago, Anirbas said:

I read those quotes ten thousand times probably, but I asked you to tell me why in the wedding night scene he's definitely trying to say that he hasn't something sex related.Ramsay mentioned about the first night right, that the Prince of Winterfell would have. (the chapter is named the Prince of Winterfell ironically)
And again Ramsay commands him to get his wife ready for sex not to fuck her: I don't know if you know what foreplay is, you don't make a woman wet sticking your dick into her (and poor Jeyne is "dry as a bone"), even a serial rapist like Ramsay Bolton knows that (he proposes the cunnilingus after all), why not Theon "I bedded more girls than I could name" Greyjoy?
You don't need a cock to make a woman sexually aroused (source: I'm a woman)

"I have no..."

His refusal is based on him lacking something, i.e. not having it.

Do you have a sensible alternative to what he could be referring to? Same for "that other thing": what sensible alternative is there to his penis?

[The Marquis de Leech]

"I have no will to do this."

(Theon will know that getting a woman aroused requires foreplay. Foreplay does not involve sticking your penis into a woman - that's why it's called foreplay - it's getting the person aroused beforehand).

"That other thing" doesn't have to allude to removal of the penis. Perhaps Ramsay removed Theon's testicles instead? Perhaps it refers to a more abstract thing like hope or dignity.

[The Drunkard]

I don't buy the abstract alternatives, especially in the first case. His reaction to Ramsay's request is complete surprise, which is natural when someone cuts your dick off and then asks you to pleasure his wife. And "that other thing" is singular, so I doubt he means testicles. 

[The Marquis de Leech]

2 minutes ago, The Drunkard said:

I don't buy the abstract alternatives, especially in the first case. His reaction to Ramsay's request is complete surprise, which is natural when someone cuts your dick off and then asks you to pleasure his wife. And "that other thing" is singular, so I doubt he means testicles. 

But if the other thing was his penis, why would Theon Greyjoy of all people think it better to lose his penis than his tongue? If we're not dealing with an abstraction, why not his foreskin? Perhaps Ramsay had Theon circumcised?

The request is to "get her ready". Which as Theon (and hopefully GRRM) knows, involves things like tongue and fingers.

[Anirbas]

49 minutes ago, The Drunkard said:

"I have no..."

His refusal is based on him lacking something, i.e. not having it.

Do you have a sensible alternative to what he could be referring to? Same for "that other thing": what sensible alternative is there to his penis?

I have said several times already if you paid attention: " I have no...right"

Quote

Ramsay smiled his wet smile. "Does she make your cock hard, Reek? Is it straining against your laces? Would you like to fuck her first?" He laughed. "The Prince of Winterfell should have that right, as all lords did in days of old. The first night. But you're no lord, are you? Only Reek. Not even a man, truth be told."

Ramsay mocks Theon with the mention of the first night right ( and it's not a coincidence that Roose back in the day used that "right" in order to rape Ramsay's mother), that the Prince of Winterfell would have. But Theon is not the Prince of Winterfell, now he's Reek.
Reek hasn't the right to touch Ramsay's wife, he knows that it will cost him punishment:

Quote

"Lord Ramsay means to cut your lips off when all this is done," said Damon, stroking his whip with a greasy rag.
"My lips have been between his lady's legs. That insolence cannot go unpunished. "As you say."

And you ignored all the things I said about foreplay. Ramsay Bolton, a serial rapist and ugly psycho unable to have normal relationships with women knows that you don't get  a woman wet putting your dick in a dry vagina. Do you know how female arousal works?

Theon Greyjoy was a ladyman who had an intense sexual life with willing women who "yearned for his touch" and you are telling me that he ignores what "PREPARING" a woman means?

Ramsay orders Theon to prepare his wife because she's dry like a bone, not to fuck her.
 

Quote

"Reek, get over here. Get her ready for me."

For the "that other thing" I have said that I think it's ambiguous and that I can concede the doubt about the emasculation because of that: I can guess abstract things like his real name or his identity (after all he uses the verb "take" and not cut), or the foreskin but I'm not convinced; but the wedding night example isn't by any means a definitive proof.
 

[The Drunkard]

21 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

But if the other thing was his penis, why would Theon Greyjoy of all people think it better to lose his penis than his tongue? If we're not dealing with an abstraction, why not his foreskin? Perhaps Ramsay had Theon circumcised?

The request is to "get her ready". Which as Theon (and hopefully GRRM) knows, involves things like tongue and fingers.

Because he likes to talk? Were I in his position I'd prefer my tongue, as it's not likely his penis will be getting much use. Foreskin seems possible, but a fairly lightweight punishment for someone like Ramsay. 

Regardless of the specifics of what Ramsay wanted him to do, my point is that Theon's reaction is one of shock, and it would be natural to be shocked in that scenario even if still capable of fulfilling his request.

13 minutes ago, Anirbas said:

I have said several times already if you paid attention: " I have no...right"

Ramsay mocks Theon with the mention of the first night right ( and it's not a coincidence that Roose back in the day used that "right" in order to rape Ramsay's mother), that the Prince of Winterfell would have. But Theon is not the Prince of Winterfell, now he's Reek.
Reek hasn't the right to touch Ramsay's wife, he knows that it will cost him punishment:

And you ignored all the things I said about foreplay. Ramsay Bolton, a serial rapist and ugly psycho unable to have normal relationships with women knows that you don't get  a woman wet putting your dick in a dry vagina. Do you know how female arousal works?

Theon Greyjoy was a ladyman who had an intense sexual life with willing women who "yearned for his touch" and you are telling me that he ignores what "PREPARING" a woman means?

Ramsay orders Theon to prepare his wife because she's dry like a bone, not to fuck her.
 

For the "that other thing" I have said that I think it's ambiguous and that I can concede the doubt about the emasculation because of that: I can guess abstract things like his real name or his identity (after all he use the verb "take" and not cut), or the foreskin but I'm not convinced; but the wedding night example isn't by any means a definitive proof.
 

I'm not ignoring your point or failing to understand them, I just don't find them convincing. Seems like an exercise in dancing around the obvious to keep Theon 'whole', for whatever purpose. 

[Anirbas]

4 minutes ago, The Drunkard said:

Because he likes to talk? Were I in his position I'd prefer my tongue, as it's not likely his penis will be getting much use. Foreskin seems possible, but a fairly lightweight punishment for someone like Ramsay. 

Regardless of the specifics of what Ramsay wanted him to do, my point is that Theon's reaction is one of shock, and it would be natural to be shocked in that scenario even if still capable of fulfilling his request.

 

I'm fairly sure that Theon loves his cock/having sex more than talking. Moreover he knows that Ramsay would never cut his tongue for real because the Bastard likes when the victim begs:
 

Quote

"When my fingers are gone he will take my hands. After my toes, my feet. But only when I beg for it, when the pain grows so bad that I plead for him to give me some relief. "

Ramsay always makes me beg.

Reek said nothing. Some things were not safe to say, not even in the stables with his lordship in the hall. One wrong word could cost him another toe, even a finger. Not my tongue, though. He will never take my tongue. He likes to hear me plead with him to spare me from the pain. He likes to make me say it.

I think that the shock comes from the fact that Ramsay has just said that Reek hasn't the right to fuck her first, and now, all of a sudden he wants him to get fArya ready. Theon is afraid that it's another Ramsay's trap (like the escape with Kyra, Theon suffers from learned hopelessness) and he tries to avoid to do that:  "M'lord, Do you mean that I have to touch your ladywife? I am Reek, not the Prince of Winterfell, I have no right to do that, please let me go"

4 minutes ago, The Drunkard said:

I'm not ignoring your point or failing to understand them, I just don't find them convincing. Seems like an exercise in dancing around the obvious to keep Theon 'whole', for whatever purpose. 

I don't find convincing your points too but at least I explain why, and I quoted several other instances that sound odd if the penis removal really happened but you are ignoring them all the way.
While I would be happy if Theon could still father children (book!Theon is my favourite ASOIAF character after all while I don't give a damn about the show counterpart), I don't desperately want him *whole* because you know, after Ramsay he will never be the same as before, he's already physically and psychologically damaged beyond repair. I am not dancing around the obvious because a) the obvious has never been explicitly stated b ) there are actual evidences against the emasculation as well
When I read the books (before watching the show) I was intrigued by those allusions that something happened down there (and again, I don't completely deny the possibility of the emasculation even now) but actually I think that is a deliberate red herring by GRRM. Personally I am more inclined to think that  there are several hints that Theon has been raped by Ramsay (and probably by the Bastard's boys) that make the many similarities with his uncle Aeron even more striking.

[Clegane'sPup]

I’m thinking Theon has his parts minus the foreskin. I’m thinking the reason he doesn’t want people to see him naked is because of the possible feelings of shame & humiliation of being seen as less of a man. Dem parts are a mighta big part of male identity.

Due to malnutrition and mental & physical torture Theon probably can’t get an erection. His hands are also missing a few fingers. His hands may even have a bit of infection due to the lack of cleanliness.

On the lighter brighter side I’ll give ya a young Sandor

 

[BricksAndSparrows]

People need to apply Occam's Razor to this question.... just like the Bastard applied Ramsay's Razor to Theon's dick..

Ohhhh I crack myself up.

Lame jokes aside, I love the long contrived explanation people make. It's an infection in his fingers, some how foreplay figures in..Coe on.

[Oakhearts head]

Coming in to this thread, my answer would have been "Yes absolutely, Theon was definitely castrated. No ifs, ands or buts."

With that said, if you take five minutes of your time to read into male castration, Theon having his penis cut off really doesn't make any medical sense whatsoever. There is SO much that can go wrong in such a procedure: the victim has a very slim chance of survival because of infection, you have to be heavily sedated and be in an extremely sanitary environment. We know that Theon's living conditions at the Dreadfort were terrible and it's just not Ramsay's style to sedate a victim who he is torturing nor do we have any indication Ramsay was skilled enough to pull off such a surgery.

Of course, it could just be one of those things GRRM didn't think about. As complex as his writing is and as much as he prides himself on creating realistic, fully fleshed-out worlds and characters, he is prone to making errors as any writer is (the collective disappointment among the fandom when George confirmed Joffrey sent the catspaw to kill Bran in AGOT springs to mind). But yeah, on closer inspection Theon being castrated does seem incredibly unlikely.

[Gertrude]

I've never been convinced for sure that he's castrated. I agree it seems likely, but there are two conflicting quotes that others have mentioned that really put it in doubt for me. I thought Ramsey had so thoroughly emasculated Theon that he didn't think of himself as a man anymore, or even a person. There is absolutely a case to be made for castration, but I don't think it's the obvious or only conclusion.

On the two opposing quotes - I think the 'it could be worse' trumps the other. I can't think of what Reek would think was worse than losing his penis (or having it flayed). His talking about that 'other thing' is easier to explain. Not easy, just slightly easier. Perhaps Ramsey created such a strong association of sex and pain that Theon is functionally impotent and his libido was 'that other thing'. (maybe, maybe not - not sure that holds up with other quotes but it's an alternative explanation)

It's not that I actually want Theon to be whole or functional, because I quite like the idea of Asha being the one to carry on the Greyjoy line. My pet crackpot in this area is that Theon ends up ruling the Iron Isles with Asha being a strong right hand. I want her to be the Queen in all but name and her children to be Theon's heirs.

[Ashes Of Westeros]

11 hours ago, Oakhearts head said:

Coming in to this thread, my answer would have been "Yes absolutely, Theon was definitely castrated. No ifs, ands or buts."

The same. But now I have my doubts about it and gang rape or foreskin removing are more likely. Having his penis just chopped off would rather kill Theon. A penis has an artery, so he would probably die from blood loss or from infection if the wound wouldn't be treated. Of Course GRRM could sacrifice medical accuracy for plot convinience, but usually he's pretty accurate. If someone's  wounds could get infected, they do (see Drogo, Sandor, Jaime).

 

17 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

On the lighter brighter side I’ll give ya a young Sandor

This soo hilarious   Sandor has a nice package, I guess.

[Seams]

I'm surprised no one has brought up the Unsullied in this discussion. They are all cut "stem and root." If thousands of young men have been successfully (?!) castrated for the Unsullied, does that influence the discussion here of whether Theon might have survived the same amputation?

[Anirbas]

2 hours ago, Seams said:

I'm surprised no one has brought up the Unsullied in this discussion. They are all cut "stem and root." If thousands of young men have been successfully (?!) castrated for the Unsullied, does that influence the discussion here of whether Theon might have survived the same amputation?

The Unsullied are not tortured by a sadistic psycho considered a butcher by his own father and they don't live starving in some dungeons covered in filth.

We don't  know how many young boys die in the process to create the Unsullied, even if I think that they used the safest practice possible in order to limit the casualties ( it's a waste of manpower if the children die in great numbers).
And before someone brings up Varys in the discussion, in his case it seems that magic was involved.
IIRC in AWOIAF there is the case of Tyland Lannister, who was gelded and blinded by his torturers and yet survived, but again we don't know the exact circumstances. Moreover, gelding is different from penis removal (or penectomy), it's the usual term for the removal of the testicles (in the horses).

Penis removal is dangerous for several reasons, not only for the possible blood loss; I suggest to read these posts in order to get an idea of the procedure and its risks https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/21btwr/how_were_eunuchs_castrated/
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3d0rf9/what_was_the_survival_rate_for_eunuchs_in/

It's very possible that GRRM took a licence for plot convenience, but it's not only a tiny error ; As already mentioned, in the series there are several cases of infected wounds ( Theon's uncle Urrigon died for this same reason, and he was under the treatment of a maester!) and generally Martin is realistic; this exception is too big imo, in particular because of the very unsanitary conditions in which Theon lives . Unless there's magic involved and Theon survived because he's Azor Ahai reborn, but I don't think it's the case.

[Shadow Queen Medea]

I haven't read the books yet, but it seems so heavily implied that Ramsay completely removed Theon's penis I really don't see an alternative.   

Did it have the part in the books where Ramsay sent House Greyjoy Theon's penis in a box? If so, there should be no doubt. 

[Gertrude]

24 minutes ago, Shadow Queen Medea said:

I haven't read the books yet  ...

Have you at least read this thread? The show is not the books.

[Clegane'sPup]

I wish some person sitting in the audience during one of the conventions Martin attends would just ask the frekking question , “Excuse me Mr. Martin, there is a fan theory that Ramsey cut off Theon’s ummm you know the protruding part not sack part. The only reason I ask is because I’m writing dissertation on dick removal.” I would so love to see Martin’s response on Youtube and read the SSM.

39 minutes ago, Shadow Queen Medea said:

Did it have the part in the books where Ramsay sent House Greyjoy Theon's penis in a box?

No, sorry to say it did not happen.

[Shadow Queen Medea]

11 hours ago, Gertrude said:

Have you at least read this thread? The show is not the books.

Yeah.... Did you read the first sentence of my post?   "I HAVEN'T READ THE BOOKS YET..."

Then I asked a legitimate question about the topic.  

If you can read a whole book then surely you can read one sentence.     

[Gertrude]

I did understand that you hadn't read the books. What I didn't understand is why you would jump into a thread without apparently reading any of it. It should have been clear that it did not happen in the books otherwise people would have cited it as proof.

[Lord Asher Forrester]

Chill out ladies, no need to stress. I don't see any problem in someone who had not read the books is  yet interested in participating here, and everyone is welcome here for sure! Just remember, if you gonna say something like "they sended his penis on a box" (wow, that sounded very weird), PLEASE use the spoiler box, because not everybody that read this topic may have watched this yet; And there is no spoiler warning in the topic, because, like Gertrude said, it is not a thread from the show it is a thread about the books, so you can even compare the two and make parallels, it is allowed, but always under the spoiler tags, wich are a rule in the forums. Be cool as winter, peace.

 

PS: In case you miss the spoiler tag button, it is an eye symbol above the text box, next to the smyleyface emoticon button.