Something I just realized about House Tallhart

[Canon Claude]

The Tallharts' home is Torrhen's Square. Which, which means it was named for the King Who Knelt. Unless it's an older settlement that just got a new name to commemorate Torrhen Stark, that means the Tallharts wouldn't have been established until either just before or some time after Aegon's invasion. 

This makes House Tallhart a very young house compared to all the others. They're half as old as the Freys, who are constantly listed as a 'young' and up-jumped house. And yet nobody ridicules the Tallharts. The wiki lists them as one of the principal houses sworn to House Stark. Helman and Leobald both have large roles and responsibilities bestowed upon them (Helman guards the Twins to ensure Walder's loyalty, then leads the Northern infantry on Darry and Duskendale, while Leobald plays a large role in maintaining peace in the North). Not to mention they seem to be a house which worships the Seven, which should make them even less popular with their Old Gods-worshipping neighbours.

Is the North just less concerned with a House's age or have the Tallharts just done a lot to earn the respect of the other Northern houses?

[Philokles]

Torrhen is just a relatively common northern name. There is nothing to say that the Torrhen in Torrhen's Square is in reference to that particular Stark. Even if the castle was named after him and had been built in since Aegon's Conquest, it was not their first seat as the Tallharts are an older house of first men blood. This is demonstrated by an SSM:

Quote

Houses descended from the First Men tend to have simple short names, often descriptive. Stark. Reed. Flint. Tallhart (tall hart).

 

[King Ned Stark]

1 hour ago, Canon Claude said:

The Tallharts' home is Torrhen's Square. Which, which means it was named for the King Who Knelt. Unless it's an older settlement that just got a new name to commemorate Torrhen Stark, that means the Tallharts wouldn't have been established until either just before or some time after Aegon's invasion. 

This makes House Tallhart a very young house compared to all the others. They're half as old as the Freys, who are constantly listed as a 'young' and up-jumped house. And yet nobody ridicules the Tallharts. The wiki lists them as one of the principal houses sworn to House Stark. Helman and Leobald both have large roles and responsibilities bestowed upon them (Helman guards the Twins to ensure Walder's loyalty, then leads the Northern infantry on Darry and Duskendale, while Leobald plays a large role in maintaining peace in the North). Not to mention they seem to be a house which worships the Seven, which should make them even less popular with their Old Gods-worshipping neighbours.

Is the North just less concerned with a House's age or have the Tallharts just done a lot to earn the respect of the other Northern houses?

Helman Tallhart was a knight, so I'm assuming a follower of the Faith, which could back up what you say that they may indeed be a youngish House.

Personally, I don't believe the North is as concerned with a particular House's tenure.  When Ned talks to Catelyn in Kings Landing, when he is worried it might come to war, he tells her to get word to Ser Helman Tallhart and Galbart Glover to man Moat Cailin, and Lord Manderlay to prepare his fleet; which I took to mean Ned put stock in the man, not how old or prestigious a particular House was.

Coincidentally we see Glover and Manderlay plotting to reinstate the Starks, so the Ned was actually a good judge of character.  Also from Jon, in aDwD, tells Stannis that Ned relied on Roose, but never trusted him.

[Jon Fossoway]

Several possibilities.

- Torrhen's Square was built during the rule of king Torrhen and it was given to the Tallharts. The Starks have other prior examples of giving a castles to a lesser house (Mormonts) or a foreign one (Manderlys).

- Torrhen's Square was named after some Torrhen, wether he was Stark or not, it's still a common name in the north. I'm inclined to agree that it was a Stark, seeing the analog example of Karl's Hold or Karhold. Maybe it was the castle of an extinct branch of the Starks. Torrstarks?

- Etc.

41 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

Helman Tallhart was a knight, so I'm assuming a follower of the Faith, which could back up what you say that they may indeed be a youngish House.

 

Not enough info to establish that, I'm afraid. Jorah Mormont and Rodrik Cassel are both knights. I -think- that Rodrik follows the old gods (so I assume he was knighted for some reason) and Jorah doesn't follow any religion in particular (he was knighted for a reason). The only house that we know follow the Faith are the Manderlys.

[GallowsKnight]

It appears a number of Knighthoods were handed out from Robert. Both after the Robert's Grey Rebellion and the Greyjoy Rebellion. We know Jorah got one. Rodrik and Helman probably got one. We know Lord Manderly knighted Ser Bartimus of the Wolf's Den despite him worshiping the old gods. These are all likely just honorary titles with none of the associated requirements of squiring, sitting a vigil, anointing with oils etc.

So I don't think we can assume the Tallharts follow the Seven. Think of it like getting an honorary degree from Harvard or MIT for achievements in your particular field. It's really prestigious but doesn't mean you've actually done the course work their way.

[James Steller]

2 hours ago, GallowsKnight said:

It appears a number of Knighthoods were handed out from Robert. Both after the Robert's Grey Rebellion and the Greyjoy Rebellion. We know Jorah got one. Rodrik and Helman probably got one. We know Lord Manderly knighted Ser Bartimus of the Wolf's Den despite him worshiping the old gods. These are all likely just honorary titles with none of the associated requirements of squiring, sitting a vigil, anointing with oils etc.

So I don't think we can assume the Tallharts follow the Seven. Think of it like getting an honorary degree from Harvard or MIT for achievements in your particular field. It's really prestigious but doesn't mean you've actually done the course work their way.

I do like the idea of Helman getting his knighthood during the Greyjoy rebellion. He seems to be old enough for that, and it would justify his knighthood despite being a Northman of the old gods, and having him be a veteran of at least one war which Ned fought in would also explain why he's given military commands by Robb and the other lords, instead of just getting them due to his rank.

Because that's the thing, we never really get to know everyone that well. We know that Roose Bolton, Rickard Karstark, and Wyman Manderly fought during Robert's Rebellion, and we can only assume the Glover brothers might have been there as well. We get a few words about how Robett Glover is a highly respected man who could have commanded the whole Northern host instead of Robb, despite not even being the head of his own house. Where did this prestige come from? It must have been the Greyjoy Rebellion and/or Robert's Rebellion.

[Cabbageleafbastard]

7 hours ago, Canon Claude said:

The Tallharts' home is Torrhen's Square. Which, which means it was named for the King Who Knelt. Unless it's an older settlement that just got a new name to commemorate Torrhen Stark, that means the Tallharts wouldn't have been established until either just before or some time after Aegon's invasion. 

This makes House Tallhart a very young house compared to all the others. They're half as old as the Freys, who are constantly listed as a 'young' and up-jumped house. And yet nobody ridicules the Tallharts. The wiki lists them as one of the principal houses sworn to House Stark. Helman and Leobald both have large roles and responsibilities bestowed upon them (Helman guards the Twins to ensure Walder's loyalty, then leads the Northern infantry on Darry and Duskendale, while Leobald plays a large role in maintaining peace in the North). Not to mention they seem to be a house which worships the Seven, which should make them even less popular with their Old Gods-worshipping neighbours.

Is the North just less concerned with a House's age or have the Tallharts just done a lot to earn the respect of the other Northern houses?

Helman Tallhart is a knight because his title is Master of Torrhen's Square, not Lord. It would be interesting to know why the Tallharts aren't granted the title of Lord, especially since Torrhen's Square is one of the stronger castles in the North. But I think this is the reason Helman is a Knight, it would be possible for him to serve in White Harbor as a squire, before receiving his spurs. There is a precedent for this, as Brandon Stark had a Glover as a squire and Robb took a Frey to squire, even though he couldn't give him a Knighthood directly.

[GallowsKnight]

2 hours ago, James Steller said:

I do like the idea of Helman getting his knighthood during the Greyjoy rebellion. He seems to be old enough for that, and it would justify his knighthood despite being a Northman of the old gods, and having him be a veteran of at least one war which Ned fought in would also explain why he's given military commands by Robb and the other lords, instead of just getting them due to his rank.

Because that's the thing, we never really get to know everyone that well. We know that Roose Bolton, Rickard Karstark, and Wyman Manderly fought during Robert's Rebellion, and we can only assume the Glover brothers might have been there as well. We get a few words about how Robett Glover is a highly respected man who could have commanded the whole Northern host instead of Robb, despite not even being the head of his own house. Where did this prestige come from? It must have been the Greyjoy Rebellion and/or Robert's Rebellion.

Galbart Glover is the Master of Deepwood Motte and he is not a Knight. An honorary Knighthood might be appreciated by someone who wouldn't normally get a title of Lord like Helman or Rodrik. Or a young heir who might not expect to inherit soon like Jorah.

[Jon Fossoway]

10 hours ago, Cabbageleafbastard said:

Helman Tallhart is a knight because his title is Master of Torrhen's Square, not Lord. It would be interesting to know why the Tallharts aren't granted the title of Lord, especially since Torrhen's Square is one of the stronger castles in the North. But I think this is the reason Helman is a Knight, it would be possible for him to serve in White Harbor as a squire, before receiving his spurs. There is a precedent for this, as Brandon Stark had a Glover as a squire and Robb took a Frey to squire, even though he couldn't give him a Knighthood directly.

A masterly house is the equivalent of a knightly house from the south, but that don't make it necessary for the head of the family to be a knight. Take the Glovers, for example, another old and important vassal of the Starks, also a masterly house.

Brandon taking squires is weird enough, but taking another northman sounds a little absurd. There's a lot of assumptions one may take, but seeing as we don't have any more information about Ethan, I'd say that was a hole in the plot logic.I think it more like Robb's personal guards/friends. Brandon was apparently a charismatic dude and when he traveled to King's Landing on that suicide trip he was accompanied by several young nobles, even southron. 

[MinotaurWarrior]

20 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

Torrhen is just a relatively common northern name. There is nothing to say that the Torrhen in Torrhen's Square is in reference to that particular Stark. Even if the castle was named after him and had been built in since Aegon's Conquest, it was not their first seat as the Tallharts are an older house of first men blood. This is demonstrated by an SSM:

 

Also, just adding to this: Torrhen is the Northern equivalent of Durran, which is one of the oldest attested names in the series. Torrhens had eight millenia to get a square named after them. 

[Jon Fossoway]

1 hour ago, MinotaurWarrior said:

Also, just adding to this: Torrhen is the Northern equivalent of Durran, which is one of the oldest attested names in the series. Torrhens had eight millenia to get a square named after them. 

Phonetically? There aren't many Torrhens in the saga or mentioned in the world book. I thought Brandon was the equivalent.

[James Steller]

1 hour ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Phonetically? There aren't many Torrhens in the saga or mentioned in the world book.

The only Torrhen of real importance is the King who Knelt. And given that they set up an inn and a town at the place where he knelt, it's safe to assume that the North might also name a place after him. I say "name a place after him" because unless he had a really big ego (which I doubt), we must assume that it was established after Torrhen's death. Which means the Tallharts (as a noble house) are even younger than the OP's guess. Maybe only a few generations old, for all I know. Given that they aren't Lords, but Masters, and given that Eddard seems to directly order them around, I'd say they're the Northern equivalent of landed knights.

[naseridrl]

Maybe they are both old and new. Old in that they are a first men house, but maybe like the Tyrells they served as Stewards for the Starks for a long time and when Torrhen's Square was built they were given it for their service.  They could be a old house but relatively newly landed. 

[Philokles]

32 minutes ago, James Steller said:

The only Torrhen of real importance is the King who Knelt. And given that they set up an inn and a town at the place where he knelt, it's safe to assume that the North might also name a place after him. I say "name a place after him" because unless he had a really big ego (which I doubt), we must assume that it was established after Torrhen's death. Which means the Tallharts (as a noble house) are even younger than the OP's guess.

It is a possibility, but with no more evidence it is only as valid a hypothesis as the Torrhen referring to the legendary founder of House Tallhart (who we have not heard about yet because the Tallhart's aren't that noteworthy) or another Torrhen Stark - a King in the North who did little of interest but commissioned a castle between the wolfswood and a large lake. Even if you're right then there is nothing to say the Tallharts are only as old as their seat - and it is unlikely their first men name would have persisted if the family were not noble.

[MinotaurWarrior]

2 hours ago, King Merrett I Frey said:

Phonetically? There aren't many Torrhens in the saga or mentioned in the world book. I thought Brandon was the equivalent.

Brandon and Durran are mentioned in the same story, so they're distinct names. I could have sworn there was solid circumstantial evidence of a Torrhen being named after a Durran, but that doesn't seem to exist. But yeah, D->T and some vowel shifts are a very small difference, phonetically. 

[BricksAndSparrows]

Could the town have been renamed? Maybe because that is where Torrhen knelt?

Wasn't the town where the Young Dragon's body was brought renamed Weeping Town? It was renamed because of an event that happened there. The same could be true for Torrhen square, if it was truly named for the King that knelt.

Another thing to keep in mind though, is that the Baratheon house was founded around the time of the Conquest. I'd say that the deeds of the "house" over shadow it's age/

[GallowsKnight]

3 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

Another thing to keep in mind though, is that the Baratheon house was founded around the time of the Conquest. I'd say that the deeds of the "house" over shadow it's age/

Except they are also Durrandons through the female line. Going back millenia. 

[BricksAndSparrows]

Just now, GallowsKnight said:

Except they are also Durrandons through the female line. Going back millenia. 

Fair point.