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Obsidian under Winterfell?


SisterWithoutBanners

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8 hours ago, SisterWithoutBanners said:

Is there mention of sulphuric odour in Winterfell in the books? If there is, it is very plausible that there is volcanic activity underground at least!

Yes! Well, sorta. Martin uses "rotten eggs" here, in ADwD, Theon:

“Even the godswood was turning white. A film of ice had formed upon the pool beneath the heart tree, and the face carved into its pale trunk had grown a mustache of little icicles. At this hour they could not hope to have the old gods to themselves. Rowan pulled Theon away from the northmen praying before the tree, to a secluded spot back by the barracks wall, beside a pool of warm mud that stank of rotten eggs. Even the mud was icing up about the edges, Theon saw. “Winter is coming …”

And there's this thread that @Lost Melnibonean someone - sorry, can't remember who! - linked:

 

5 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Black splits the others causing them to melt, green weakens them as everyone knows, red stronger than green and causes mood swings so potentially we can see good others, purprle kind of like periwinkle I guess so expect drunk Others.

By rights if three are chunks of the stuff just sitting about it should be easy to get the first shipment loaded no mining needed.

As for the wights not sure what it would do to one if it was not wearing armour, would they also melt it not react at all?

Obsidian does nothing to the wights. Well, it does, but only the same as steel or any ordinary weapon. It may cut off a hand, stuff like that. But we know severed limbs continue moving and trying to strangle you, so not much help unless you chop them up pretty good. 

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5 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

Black splits the others causing them to melt, green weakens them as everyone knows, red stronger than green and causes mood swings so potentially we can see good others, purprle kind of like periwinkle I guess so expect drunk Others.

By rights if three are chunks of the stuff just sitting about it should be easy to get the first shipment loaded no mining needed.

As for the wights not sure what it would do to one if it was not wearing armour, would they also melt it not react at all?

Back in Storm of Swords, Stannis said there were different colors of dragonglass/frozen fire/ obsidian (three different names for the same substance) on Dragonstone. Whether the three different colors have a relevance I dunna know.

Stannis sent word to Dragonstone that mining of the substance should begin. Problem --- did a ship load of the substance leave Dragonstone before Dragonstone came under siege.

If a ship load of the substance arrives it will arrive at Eastwatch.

All of that taken into consideration doesn’t explain how the CotF managed to give the NW as Sam said “The children of the forest used to give the Night's Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes”.

Sometimes I do not articulate well.

So, as to whether there is dragonglass/frozen fire/ obsidian under WF I’m merely speculating.

My question is where the CotF got the stuff to give to the NW. Surely not Dragonstone unless there was some sort of trade agreement happening.

A poster suggested that perhaps the CotF got the stuff at Hardhome. I think that is a good possibility.

This is what happened according to Sam and Martin’s book when Sam killed the Other:

A Storm of Swords - Samwell I      When he opened his eyes the Other's armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked.      Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold."     "Obsidian." Sam struggled to his knees. "Dragonglass, they call it. Dragonglass. Dragon glass." He giggled, and cried, and doubled over to heave his courage out onto the snow.

This is what happened when Sam killed the wight:

A Storm of Swords - Samwell III       Small Paul was big and powerful, but Sam still outweighed him, and the wights were clumsy, he had seen that on the Fist. The sudden shift sent Paul staggering back a step, and the living man and the dead one went crashing down together. The impact knocked one hand from Sam's throat, and he was able to suck in a quick breath of air before the icy black fingers returned. The taste of blood filled his mouth. He twisted his neck around, looking for his knife, and saw a dull orange glow. The fire! Only ember and ashes remained, but still . . . he could not breathe, or think . . . Sam wrenched himself sideways, pulling Paul with him . . . his arms flailed against the dirt floor, groping, reaching, scattering the ashes, until at last they found something hot . . . a chunk of charred wood, smouldering red and orange within the black . . . his fingers closed around it, and he smashed it into Paul's mouth, so hard he felt teeth shatter.      Yet even so the wight's grip did not loosen. Sam's last thoughts were for the mother who had loved him and the father he had failed. The longhall was spinning around him when he saw the wisp of smoke rising from between Paul's broken teeth. Then the dead man's face burst into flame, and the hands were gone.

In Martin’s books there are Other’s/White Walker’s and their minions wights. Other’s die via dragonglass/obsidian/frozen fie. Wights via fire.

Not even going to get into the dragonsteel vs the valyrian steal deal. Not going to get into the whether the Other’s bring the cold or the cold brings the Other’s.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

In Martin’s books there are Other’s/White Walker’s and their minions wights. Other’s die via dragonglass/obsidian/frozen fie. Wights via fire.

And getting to the marrowbone, that's when they "remember they are dead". 

ADwD, Bran III

“The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife. Summer dug up a severed arm, black and covered with hoarfrost, its fingers opening and closing as it pulled itself across the frozen snow. There was still enough meat on it to fill his empty belly, and after that was done he cracked the arm bones for the marrow. Only then did the arm remember it was dead.”

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1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Back in Storm of Swords, Stannis said there were different colors of dragonglass/frozen fire/ obsidian (three different names for the same substance) on Dragonstone. Whether the three different colors have a relevance I dunna know.

Stannis sent word to Dragonstone that mining of the substance should begin. Problem --- did a ship load of the substance leave Dragonstone before Dragonstone came under siege.

If a ship load of the substance arrives it will arrive at Eastwatch.

All of that taken into consideration doesn’t explain how the CotF managed to give the NW as Sam said “The children of the forest used to give the Night's Watch a hundred obsidian daggers every year, during the Age of Heroes”.

Sometimes I do not articulate well.

So, as to whether there is dragonglass/frozen fire/ obsidian under WF I’m merely speculating.

My question is where the CotF got the stuff to give to the NW. Surely not Dragonstone unless there was some sort of trade agreement happening.

A poster suggested that perhaps the CotF got the stuff at Hardhome. I think that is a good possibility.

This is what happened according to Sam and Martin’s book when Sam killed the Other:

A Storm of Swords - Samwell I      When he opened his eyes the Other's armor was running down its legs in rivulets as pale blue blood hissed and steamed around the black dragonglass dagger in its throat. It reached down with two bone-white hands to pull out the knife, but where its fingers touched the obsidian they smoked.      Sam rolled onto his side, eyes wide as the Other shrank and puddled, dissolving away. In twenty heartbeats its flesh was gone, swirling away in a fine white mist. Beneath were bones like milkglass, pale and shiny, and they were melting too. Finally only the dragonglass dagger remained, wreathed in steam as if it were alive and sweating. Grenn bent to scoop it up and flung it down again at once. "Mother, that's cold."     "Obsidian." Sam struggled to his knees. "Dragonglass, they call it. Dragonglass. Dragon glass." He giggled, and cried, and doubled over to heave his courage out onto the snow.

 

This is what happened when Sam killed the wight:

 

A Storm of Swords - Samwell III       Small Paul was big and powerful, but Sam still outweighed him, and the wights were clumsy, he had seen that on the Fist. The sudden shift sent Paul staggering back a step, and the living man and the dead one went crashing down together. The impact knocked one hand from Sam's throat, and he was able to suck in a quick breath of air before the icy black fingers returned. The taste of blood filled his mouth. He twisted his neck around, looking for his knife, and saw a dull orange glow. The fire! Only ember and ashes remained, but still . . . he could not breathe, or think . . . Sam wrenched himself sideways, pulling Paul with him . . . his arms flailed against the dirt floor, groping, reaching, scattering the ashes, until at last they found something hot . . . a chunk of charred wood, smouldering red and orange within the black . . . his fingers closed around it, and he smashed it into Paul's mouth, so hard he felt teeth shatter.      Yet even so the wight's grip did not loosen. Sam's last thoughts were for the mother who had loved him and the father he had failed. The longhall was spinning around him when he saw the wisp of smoke rising from between Paul's broken teeth. Then the dead man's face burst into flame, and the hands were gone.

 

In Martin’s books there are Other’s/White Walker’s and their minions wights. Other’s die via dragonglass/obsidian/frozen fie. Wights via fire.

Not even going to get into the dragonsteel vs the valyrian steal deal. Not going to get into the whether the Other’s bring the cold or the cold brings the Other’s.

 

 

 

 

The Others bring the cold. 

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8 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

In Martin’s books there are Other’s/White Walker’s and their minions wights. Other’s die via dragonglass/obsidian/frozen fie. Wights via fire.

We have not seen the effect fire has on others, nor have we seen how obsidian effects wights

"You’re dead, you’re dead.” He stabbed and screamed, again and again, tearing huge rents in Paul’s heavy black cloak. Shards of dragonglass flew everywhere as the blade shattered on the iron mail beneath the wool."

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19 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The Others bring the cold. 

 

12 hours ago, elder brother jonothor dar said:

We have not seen the effect fire has on others, nor have we seen how obsidian effects wights

Har! For fun and for free .

A Storm of Swords - Samwell II       "Yes," said Sam, "but is it the cold that brings the wights, or the wights that bring the cold?"       "Who cares?" Grenn's axe sent wood chips flying. "They come together, that's what matters. Hey, now that we know that dragonglass kills them, maybe they won't come at all. Maybe they're frightened of us now!"

It’s a messy muddy bog of ambiguity.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon II      "Long ago," Jon broke in. "What about the Others?" <snip> The Others come when it is cold, most of the tales agree. Or else it gets cold when they come. Sometimes they appear during snowstorms and melt away when the skies clear. They hide from the light of the sun and emerge by night … or else night falls when they emerge.

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23 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

And getting to the marrowbone, that's when they "remember they are dead". 

ADwD, Bran III

“The moon was a crescent, thin and sharp as the blade of a knife. Summer dug up a severed arm, black and covered with hoarfrost, its fingers opening and closing as it pulled itself across the frozen snow. There was still enough meat on it to fill his empty belly, and after that was done he cracked the arm bones for the marrow. Only then did the arm remember it was dead.”

This is an interesting thought! 
Btw, the link to that other post was interesting too:)

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6 minutes ago, SisterWithoutBanners said:

This is an interesting thought! 
Btw, the link to that other post was interesting too:)

I really like the idea of obsidian under Winterfell somewhere, and it makes sense considering the [little] info we have so far. So, we know for a fact there's obsidian on Dragonstone, and it's very likely there's also some under Winterfell and, imo, at Hardhome.

As a side note, knowing that the timeline is at the very least a bit dodgy, I wonder if the Doom and the disaster at Hardhome didn't happen at the same time, caused by the same... event? Thing? The Doom happened "officially" ~ 400 yrs ago, while the disaster at HH some 600 yrs ago. 

Perhaps @bent branch could chime in, since s/he clearly knows her/his shit, and I, much like Jon, know fuck all about geology, volcanoes, the lot. :)

 

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Hot springs are most often in regions with volcanic activity but they also occur in regions without any.  If water can percolate down far enough below the surface it encounters heat from the earth's crust and then rises to surface.  I grew up in a small town north of Toronto far from any volcanic activity and there were a few hot springs in our region.  They weren't super hot but they steamed in the winter and didn't freeze over and they smelled like sulphur.   

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11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I really like the idea of obsidian under Winterfell somewhere, and it makes sense considering the [little] info we have so far. So, we know for a fact there's obsidian on Dragonstone, and it's very likely there's also some under Winterfell and, imo, at Hardhome.

As a side note, knowing that the timeline is at the very least a bit dodgy, I wonder if the Doom and the disaster at Hardhome didn't happen at the same time, caused by the same... event? Thing? The Doom happened "officially" ~ 400 yrs ago, while the disaster at HH some 600 yrs ago. 

Perhaps @bent branch could chime in, since s/he clearly knows her/his shit, and I, much like Jon, know fuck all about geology, volcanoes, the lot. :)

 

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but it is sort of hard to say where obsidian can be found, beyond the obvious around volcanos. The reason is because obsidian is kind of like a cake, you have a recipe that depends upon both ingredients and temperature and if either is off you have a failed cake. This is the reason a volcano that produces obsidian can be right next to a volcano that doesn't.

About the only thing about magma that could potentially give us a clue about where obsidian might be is that obsidian comes from volcanos that have the highest silicate content (this type of magma is called rhyolite). The high silicate content makes the volcano more likely to go boom in a spectacular fashion. This definitely sounds like Hardhome to me.

There are kind of two things necessary for there to be obsidian at Winterfell. First, that during the active volcanic period around Winterfell, the volcano actually erupted. If the magma cooled without ever breaking the surface, then we call that resulting rock granite. The second is that the eruption of the volcano around Winterfell happened no more than about 200,000 years ago. Speaking in geologic time, obsidian breaks down into sand rather quickly.

However, I doubt GRRM is spending much time worrying about the science behind obsidian. Story wise, he has told us of two sources of obsidian, Dragonstone and north of the Wall (probably Hardhome). Since it has definitely been less than 200,000 years, the obsidian the Wildlings were giving to the Watch has to be stored somewhere. With the other castles along the Wall being opened this obsidian should be found. If it is not in any of the castles along the Wall, then my guess would be that it has been moved to Winterfell and is being stored somewhere there.

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21 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

<chuckle> yes, m'lord <curtsy>

I enjoyed the the link. Thanks.

6 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

When Skagos trades, they offer obsidian, among other things. 

The three fingered tree huggers if Luwin and history can be believed:

A Game of Thrones - Bran VII     "Dragonglass," Osha named it as she sat down beside Luwin, bandagings in hand.    "Obsidian," Maester Luwin insisted, holding out his wounded arm. "Forged in the fires of the gods, far below the earth. The children of the forest hunted with that, thousands of years ago. The children worked no metal. In place of mail, they wore long shirts of woven leaves and bound their legs in bark, so they seemed to melt into the wood. In place of swords, they carried blades of obsidian."

there's got to be dragonglass somewhere on Westeros other than Dragonstone & Hardhome.

Posters have speculated throughout the years that there is something smelly going on in WF.  What-say, the Stark crypt (an underground burial chamber) is part of a larger underground cavern?

For conversational purposes --- that underground cavern was once inhabited by the CotF annnnnnnnnnd there might be some obsidian down there somewhere.

 

 

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