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PRTWP: We have interpreted it all wrong!


TheDemonicStark

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I have been thinking about something. Namely, the song of ice and fire. Have we missed something crucial about it?

Remember the oaths the Reed kids swore to Bran, when they affirmed their loyalty to House Stark and the King in the North? They swore it by ice and fire at the end. Perhaps what the prophecy actually means is that the one who will defeat the Others will the King in the North? Think about it.

"And his shall be a song of ice and fire," when applied to House Stark, becomes a reference to the oath that was sworn to them by their vassals when they were Kings. So, the song is about a King in the North.

And the true king in the north, who will definitely be reborn, is Jon Snow. BOOM! JON SNOW IS THE PRINCE THAT WAS PROMISED! HE WILL BE THR KING IN THE NORTH WHO CONQUERED WESTOROS, AND CLAIMED THE IRON THRONE! 

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That's a very interesting connection between the Starks and the oath given by the Reeds.  In a song; we are talking about instruments; so curious that the Reeds belong to the reeds section. You might find this OP interesting.   We also have Jon referred to as R'hllor's instrument when Melisandre asks to see Stannis in her fires.  She repeatedly sees Jon instead of Stannis.

We have other contenders for PwiP; namely Bran, the Prince of Winterfell for whom the CotF have been waiting for some time.  Can we also consider him promised in some way?

Dany is either Rhaegar's progeny or comes from that bloodline which could make her the promised one. Maester Aemon certainly thinks so and he may be aware of the specifics of the prophecy from Rhaegar. But we don't know exactly what the prophecy said or if Rhaegar got it right. He's expecting a son while Aemon comes to the conclusion that dragons can change their sex and he is certain that Dany is the promised one. So it seems Rhaegar got it wrong.  Or he saw a boy and assumed he was his own son.

We know prophecy is tricky; Dany gets it wrong when Quaithe tells her that she must pass beneath the shadow and touch the light.  Dany assumes she means Asshai by the shadow; but Quaithe is really referring to the shadow beneath the Mother of Mountains at Vaes Dothrak.  The Dothraki high holy place where Dany must go to 'touch the light'; before she can move forward again. After Khal Drogo died; Dany became one of the crones and they rule Vaes Dothrak in a sense.  Whatever mysteries await Dany; they are the exclusive domain of the crones. In the parlance of the new gods; the crone bears a lantern.  Does this make Dany a light bearer, someone who lights the way, in other words Lightbrinber? The light represents truth or wisdom.  The crones is the 'slayer of lies', one of Dany's three heads. She is also the daughter of darkness and the bride of fire/mother of dragons or mother of mountains.

 

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To take a bit of a contrarian view, I'm not convinced that the PTWP moniker is really going to matter all that much.  PTWP is really just a belief of one religion based in Essos, and hardly anyone practices this religion in Westeros.  So the red priests can talk about it all they want but everyone else wont really care.

Will Jon be PTWP?  Dany?  Bran?  Who cares?  One of them will go on to lead Westeros through a hard time and be a hero, no matter the title they are given. 

Everyone has decided that the beliefs of this one religion are going to factor heavily into the salvation of Westeros, but why?  Maybe there will be no PTWP.  The red priests and priestesses have already proven themselves to be mistake prone

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17 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

To take a bit of a contrarian view, I'm not convinced that the PTWP moniker is really going to matter all that much.  PTWP is really just a belief of one religion based in Essos, and hardly anyone practices this religion in Westeros.  So the red priests can talk about it all they want but everyone else wont really care.

Will Jon be PTWP?  Dany?  Bran?  Who cares?  One of them will go on to lead Westeros through a hard time and be a hero, no matter the title they are given. 

Everyone has decided that the beliefs of this one religion are going to factor heavily into the salvation of Westeros, but why?  Maybe there will be no PTWP.  The red priests and priestesses have already proven themselves to be mistake prone

I don't think AA or PwP will turn out quite the way we imagine it.  Trying to force a prophecy or mold it in the sense that Rhaegar is acting in a way that he thinks will bring about the prophecy; or Melisandre putting on a show concerning the death of the three kings; implying that she had something to do with their deaths; and indeed Euron who means to break the earth and be reborn through fell sorceries, makes it kind of interesting. 

There is a difference between what Melisandre sees and what Moqorro sees.  Mel gets it consistently wrong because of her assumptions even though she's in the right ball park.  Her superiors expect someone from the Baratheon bloodline to be reborn as AA and they know more about the previous Long Night that has been disclosed to the reader at this point.  So either the bloodline is wrong or Jon parents are different from whom we have been led to believe so far.  Do we doubt Moqorro when he tells Tyrion that the dark eye has fallen on Dany or that she is threatened above all by a twisted thing with ten long arms?

So yes, you can take what you want out of it or nothing at all.

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I guess my point is that for whatever reason we have all decided that the religion of the lord of Light is true and real.  There are many religions in the GoT world, and when I read through the books AA just seems like a passing after thought from a far away land, but not that important.  And yes, the red priests are searching for the PTWP, but they are the only ones.  Nobody else seems overly concerned with the prophesy, especially nobody in Westeros, which is where all of this is supposed to go down.

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6 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

If then it should be Bran, the true King in the North.

These titles are just as confusing as prophecy.  The king in the north, the kings of winter, the king beyond the wall.  They have a historical context but how messed up is the history itself? Is the king in the north attached to Winterfell or declared by Stark bannermen; are the kings of winter and the north the same thing; is the king beyond the wall whomever the wildlings decide is the war chief?   

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3 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

I guess my point is that for whatever reason we have all decided that the religion of the lord of Light is true and real.  There are many religions in the GoT world, and when I read through the books AA just seems like a passing after thought from a far away land, but not that important.  And yes, the red priests are searching for the PTWP, but they are the only ones.  Nobody else seems overly concerned with the prophesy, especially nobody in Westeros, which is where all of this is supposed to go down.

Yes, I think there are a few discussion here somewhere discussing the myths of different cultures basically relating the same event of the Long Night which seems like it would have been something of a global catastrophe.  It seems to boil down to the same event and legends that sprung up around that time perhaps 10,000 years in the past.  That's a long time for things to be forgotten; knowledge lost except for the Citadel perhaps and the Red Religion who might also trace their roots back to the original event.  Melisandre tells Jon that the wall is as much her place as Jon's; she constantly looks for the ancient enemy and the one who will defeat him.  She is clearly terrified.  

All the Starks have are Old Nan's tales.  Scary stories that are turning out to be true.  There is also the mysterious house of Black and White; the Faceless Men who seem to know more than we do.  Not to mention the CotF and the wierwoods.  Bran can peer through time now.  So very few seem to know how the world is threatened at this point.

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7 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Yes, I think there are a few discussion here somewhere discussing the myths of different cultures basically relating the same event of the Long Night which seems like it would have been something of a global catastrophe.  It seems to boil down to the same event and legends that sprung up around that time perhaps 10,000 years in the past.  That's a long time for things to be forgotten; knowledge lost except for the Citadel perhaps and the Red Religion who might also trace their roots back to the original event.  Melisandre tells Jon that the wall is as much her place as Jon's; she constantly looks for the ancient enemy and the one who will defeat him.  She is clearly terrified.  

All the Starks have are Old Nan's tales.  Scary stories that are turning out to be true.  There is also the mysterious house of Black and White; the Faceless Men who seem to know more than we do.  Not to mention the CotF and the wierwoods.  Bran can peer through time now.  So very few seem to know how the world is threatened at this point.

Speaking of the CoTF and the BR, don't you think if there was  in face a PTWP out there somewhere, who had the ability to defeat the Others they would be using their considerable abilities to search for this hero?  They are in the know on a lot of this and haven't once mentioned the PTWP by that, or any other name/title

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19 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

Speaking of the CoTF and the BR, don't you think if there was  in face a PTWP out there somewhere, who had the ability to defeat the Others they would be using their considerable abilities to search for this hero?  They are in the know on a lot of this and haven't once mentioned the PTWP by that, or any other name/title

I think the CotFand have neatly packaged up Bran, Jon and Arya on that score. What the PwP or AA turns out to be in the end is a good question; but clearly the game is afoot and the forces of ice and fire are lining up for confrontation.   Have you read the Winds of Winter sample chapter the Forsaken?  What do you make of Euron and his little ship of horrors?

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1 minute ago, LynnS said:

I think the CotFand have neatly packaged up Bran, Jon and Arya on that score. What the PwP or AA turns out to be in the end is a good question; but clearly the game is afoot and the forces of ice and fire are lining up for confrontation.   Have you read the Winds of Winter sample chapter the Forsaken?  What do you make of Euron and his little ship of horrors?

I think Euron is one of the more interesting and potentially impactful characters in the books.  And he seems easy to forget about over on the iron islands, the whole out of sight out of mind thing.

What with his fleet of ships, his valyrian armor, and his valyrian dragon horn he is going to be a major player.  The horn especially piques my interest.  We are led to believe his horn can bind dragons to his will...So he can either marry Dany to create a strong alliance, or should Dany turn him down he can simply use his horns and take her dragons.  And Dany with no dragons is suddenly a much less formidable opponent

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51 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I don't think AA or PwP will turn out quite the way we imagine it.  Trying to force a prophecy or mold it in the sense that Rhaegar is acting in a way that he thinks will bring about the prophecy; or Melisandre putting on a show concerning the death of the three kings; implying that she had something to do with their deaths; and indeed Euron who means to break the earth and be reborn through fell sorceries, makes it kind of interesting

I think you are right about this.  So far all we've seen is characters trying to force the prophecy to come into being for their own reasons.  Nothing has really played out "naturally."  We are primarily referring to religious beliefs here, but the cost of trying to make these prophecies real has been extremely high already.  Wars have started, regimes toppled, people have been murdered, lands conquered, and it's probably going to get worse.  As readers as well as some characters, we can get so invested in this savior which is a huge theme in stories, that maybe George is criticizing the acceptance of all this horrific death toll and chaos to have a savior is just plain amoral and destructive as the enemy.          

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I don't want to spoil it; if you haven't read it. Here's the ink if you are interested. So yes spoiler alert if this isn't in the place and spoiler quotes if necessary.  What do you think Euron is up to?  He thinks he is AA! or soon will be. 

Spoiler

He is planning some infernal sorcery using the blood of 'holy' men and sorcerers to make himself into AA. Sacrifices Including his own brother and his pregnant salt wife  I think this makes him Dany's worst enemy.  I don't think he's going after Dany and he's using Victarion as a diversion.  He's not sitting on the throne at home.  Sam has seen his personal banner very close to the Citadel.   That's not far from Starfall!

 

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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

These titles are just aslineusing as prophecy.  The king in the north, the kings of winter, the king beyond the wall.  They have a historical context but how messed up is the history itself? Is the king in the north attached to Winterfell or declared by Stark bannermen; are the kings of winter and the north the same thing; is the king beyond the wall whomever the wildlings decide is the war chief?   

King in the North is the person who is from the line of Kings of Winter. Anyone can declare anyone as KitN but if the blood line really matters then Brandon Stark is the King in the North.

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48 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

Speaking of the CoTF and the BR, don't you think if there was  in face a PTWP out there somewhere, who had the ability to defeat the Others they would be using their considerable abilities to search for this hero?  They are in the know on a lot of this and haven't once mentioned the PTWP by that, or any other name/title

She will be coming to them.

 

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2 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Wars have started, regimes toppled, people have been murdered, lands conquered, and it's probably going to get worse.  As readers as well as some characters, we can get so invested in this savior which is a huge theme in stories, that maybe George is criticizing the acceptance of all this horrific death toll and chaos to have a savior is just plain amoral and destructive as the enemy.

 Absolutely,  He is commenting about the nature of our humanity and I think the plight of child soldiers as well.

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7 minutes ago, khal drogon said:

King in the North is the person who is from the line of Kings of Winter. Anyone can declare anyone as KitN but if the blood line really matters then Brandon Stark is the King in the North.

That would make sense since we can be certain that Ned is Bran's father and the cup has passed to him to quote Ned. 

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4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

That would make sense since we can be certain that Ned is Bran's father and the cup has passed to him to quote Ned. 

I think Bran has taken himself out of the running (no pun intended....cuz he can't run....it's funny cuz he's paralyzed) for King in the North.  He's off doing his warg/blood raven thing, and I think now that he is delving into mysteries and magic unknown being King in the North would seem small to him. 

Jon seems to me to be the best fit, especially remembering Robb Stark's probably will.  I know that's not 100% confirmed, but given context clues he more than likely named Jon his heir as King in the North.

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I think it's worth noting that all the other things Meera and Jojen swear by are weapons.

Bronze and Iron are the weapons of the First Men and the Andals to try to kill the Children of the Forest.

Earth and Water are the weapons the Children of the Forest try to use to kill humans (breaking the Arm of Dorne, for example).

So, Ice and Fire are probably not good things. They probably kill people (and CotF). This makes sense in the context of other oaths, which are often on pain of some sort of awful punishment: "I swear on the lives of my children," "I swear on my mother's grave," "Cross my heart and hope to die, stick a needle in my eye," etc.

Furthermore, while the oaths each individual swears are about one side killing the other, the ice and fire is sworn by both of them.

It's purely speculative, but it's possible to see this as a case where Ice and Fire are each part of an existential threat that could kill both the humans and the Children of the Forest.

So, the promise might not be a good promise. The Prince that Was Promised might be "The Fire Next Time" - more like the Stallion Who Mounts the World (which sounds very dramatic and dashing until you realize what "mounts" means in this context).

"The Fire Next Time" (YHWH's Covenant with Noah in the Bible, oft-cited by 20th century writers and poets in relation to societal hatred) might also connect to a chronological order in the oaths.

First the Children fought with earth, then they fought with water.

First the humans fought with bronze, then they fought with iron.

First the world tried to destroy all life with ice, next time it will destroy it with fire.

Now I'm getting way too deep into speculation, but if we find time to be nonlinear in some way in the books, the way Bran is sort of getting the sense it might be through his visions, a "song of ice and fire" might be the song of two times the world was nearly destroyed - the first being the Long Night, and the second being some sort of evil blood magic apocalypse being brought about by some people with very ill intentions and some people with good intentions who don't know any better (like Melisandre).

Maybe. 

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2 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

I think Bran has taken himself out of the running (no pun intended....cuz he can't run....it's funny cuz he's paralyzed) for King in the North.  He's off doing his warg/blood raven thing, and I think now that he is delving into mysteries and magic unknown being King in the North would seem small to him. 

Jon seems to me to be the best fit, especially remembering Robb Stark's probably will.  I know that's not 100% confirmed, but given context clues he more than likely named Jon his heir as King in the North.

Will Bran use Jon as his instrument?  I can see Bran as a King of Winter controlling the cold winds and wights; interacting with Jon and Arya.  Possibly even Dany and others since he can see with his god's eye view far above the earth and perhaps enter their dreams?  Jon could be the Horned Lord since he has knowledge of at least two horns.  The small broken horn now in Sam's possession presented to Jon by Ghost no less. That in itself seems significant.  There is also the Horn of Joramun if in fact Melisandre destroyed it at all. I'm most curious about the small horn and if it will be repaired and sounded.  Will Ghost then regain his own voice?  Hah!  Is this also a binding horn like Dragonbinder; something the binds the will of someone of something else to the one sounding it.  I find the prospect of this horn binding the White Walkers to Jon's will very interesting. Would this then make him the Night's King?   

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