Millions of fake accounts at Wells Fargo

[The Lone Rider]

2 minutes ago, R'hllors Red Lobster said:

Well, get ready to be pissed

Oh she's a standard bearer of their culture alright

[Inigima]

Estate lawyer I know has told me that WF are one of two banks -- the other is BoA -- that he always recommends against doing business with. Those are the two banks who have tried to hold on to the assets of the deceased in the face of proper documentation and procedure. Never going to do business with WF as long as I live.

[Altherion]

In case people were wondering how this could have gone on without at least a few honest people noticing and reporting it, the answer is fairly simple: the would-be whistleblowers were fired within days of the complaints:

Quote

 

One former Wells Fargo human resources official even said the bank had a method in place to retaliate against tipsters. He said that Wells Fargo would find ways to fire employees "in retaliation for shining light" on sales issues. It could be as simple as monitoring the employee to find a fault, like showing up a few minutes late on several occasions.

"If this person was supposed to be at the branch at 8:30 a.m. and they showed up at 8:32 a.m, they would fire them," the former human resources official told CNNMoney, on the condition he remain anonymous out of fear for his career.

 

 

[Iskaral Pust]

9 minutes ago, Altherion said:

In case people were wondering how this could have gone on without at least a few honest people noticing and reporting it, the answer is fairly simple: the would-be whistleblowers were fired within days of the complaints:

 

This should be actionable by the DoJ too.  It's sufficient for them to establish that whistle-blowers were singled out for treatment not consistently applied to others.

I know the Senate just had their circus event to grandstand on this but I still don't understand why the most tangible and direct example of widespread criminal fraud and malfeasance in banks has not resulted in prosecution beyond a (very large) fine from their regulator, nor why it had to reach public notice to gain any scrutiny as a possibly criminal matter.  It sometimes seems that the State's Attorney looks for cases that will lead to juicy settlements rather than punishment of specific individuals.  The bottom line is that the people in corporations who break the laws do not suffer real consequences.  Fining the company, and therefore the shareholders, does create a positive incentive for them to apply better controls and governance on employees, but there isn't much negative incentive for employees to not ignore or circumvent those controls.

[Inigima]

I agree. It seems to me that regulators are loath to apply fines that could seriously disrupt the business, but that's exactly the incentive needed. The consequences for serious malfeasance need to be severe enough that the company truly feels the impact. Either hold leadership personally accountable, or make the fines big enough that the company is genuinely concerned about going under as a result.

[Swordfish]

Yeah.  THat part is odd.  It's  not so much that I;m completely against trotting him out there so they could get some good campaign snippets for their facebook pages, but it's hard no to wonder how we got here, and why they aren't doing more, rather than just asking pointed questions.

[Rorshach]

I think large fines - to the point of sums that would seriously disrupt business - is indeed the way to go. 

Ideally, I would like to see responsibility of leaders here - your underlings are behaving criminally? You're responsible, like them, and will be tried like them. However, I fear that the farther up we get in the food chain, the better the lawyers, and therefore we wouldn't see leaders actually taking responsibility. So I fear that is a dead end (of course, we would expect leaders to behave responsibly, but no-one's fooled by that). 

[Jo498]

I found this interesting:

http://www.macroresilience.com/2013/12/04/how-to-commit-fraud-and-get-away-with-it-a-guide-for-ceos/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+MacroeconomicResilience+(Macroeconomic+Resilience)

[Larry of the Lawn]

28 minutes ago, Rorshach said:

I think large fines - to the point of sums that would seriously disrupt business - is indeed the way to go. 

Ideally, I would like to see responsibility of leaders here - your underlings are behaving criminally? You're responsible, like them, and will be tried like them. However, I fear that the farther up we get in the food chain, the better the lawyers, and therefore we wouldn't see leaders actually taking responsibility. So I fear that is a dead end (of course, we would expect leaders to behave responsibly, but no-one's fooled by that). 

Agree that it's a dead end to expect any kind of accountability on personal level with this type of crime, or really anything in that sphere (crimes committed by many people in a massive corporation).  

I don't think it's an issue of lawyer power, I think it's structurally what we've decided corporations are.  Companies like GE can poison the Hudson River till all the fish 200 miles north of NYC are inedible for years and all they get I'd a couple of fines and an agreement to participate in some half-assed cleanup measures that are a literal drop in a bucket.

AIG,the banks and financial firms that were responsible for the housing crash and credit crisis in the US, no one has been held accountable.  Shareholders took a couple of lumps, but it's not comparable to the lump someone who purchased a shitty mortgage on an overvalued home as a first time home buyer did.  

Regulatory agencies come in after the fact for the most part to deal with corporate and industrial crime.  The damage has been done and the actual justice is never served.  No one is held accountable, and any fines are dispersed over a massive corporate structure, which moves on to find a new way to fuck the world over money.  The only axiom is 'is the profitability of this criminal or unethical action likely to exceed any fines we may incur from it.'

It's just an extension of the American worship of the dollar and 'economy' and bottom line over everything else.

[Weeping Sore]

Honestly this incident involved the most firings I've ever heard of for malfeasance, but that's because the employees were really ripping off Wells Fargo, not the customers. The fraud was moving existing money around into new accounts and then back to game WF's incentive program. The customer impact was really quite minimal (like if you got an overdraft fee for having $25 less than you thought you had temporarily).

[Iskaral Pust]

There was a report that some customers faced fee charges related to fake services but I think the main damage done to customers was identity theft and fraudulent misrepresentation.  Those are felonies even if it doesn't cost much in dollars to each customer.  The defrauding of the bank's bonus system is also a crime although one I'm less sympathetic toward since the bank failed to oversee a widespread evasion of controls.  

I know everyone is outraged by banks in the financial crisis, but very few or any laws were broken by the big banks.  Mortgage applicants lied, often with the connivance of mortgage brokers and realtors -- that's criminal fraud.  Banks took too much risk, under the direct eye of their negligent regulator, and understated risks to their shareholders (Lehman especially) -- that's only a criminal misrepresentation to shareholders, not a crime to borrowers or the country at large.  Some of the shadier retail banks (not the investment banks) may have deliberately targeted low income minorities with more expensive loans, which may possibly be criminal racial discrimination under disparate outcomes, but I think the DoJ struggled to make the case (even with disparate outcome being a low bar relative to intent).  The public at large were not criminally defrauded even if they felt the consequence of a financial bubble.  Greed and recklessness are not felonies.  Besides, as I've posted before, LOTS of people contributed to a financial bubble.  It's very shortsighted to complain that it was the banks and ignore the role that everyone else played. 

But! But, this time we have clear, direct, widespread criminal action by a bank, and still no personal accountability. 

[ljkeane]

On 12/09/2016 at 1:17 AM, Lany Freelove Cassandra said:

I work at Wells Fargo

Er Lany, it probably won't come up but I wouldn't be surprised if your employer has some sort of internet/social media policy which counts commenting on company business without prior permission as potential gross misconduct. I'd probably delete your post just to be safe.

[Weeping Sore]

54 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

There was a report that some customers faced fee charges related to fake services but I think the main damage done to customers was identity theft and fraudulent misrepresentation.  Those are felonies even if it doesn't cost much in dollars to each customer.  The defrauding of the bank's bonus system is also a crime although one I'm less sympathetic toward since the bank failed to oversee a widespread evasion of controls.  

People who had access to customer information misused that information and committed fraud. I'm not sure it constitutes identity theft exactly, you could say the employees were impersonating customers by opening additional accounts, but no intimation that their info was being exposed or sold to outside parties. Not saying it's okay, I just think WF was more pissed that the company was getting ripped off than they were concerned about their customers.

And while we might picture greedy employees looking for bigger bonuses, it could be less about money than just trying not to lose their jobs for poor sales production. Which, of course didn't work out.

[Swordfish]

1 hour ago, Weeping Sore said:

People who had access to customer information misused that information and committed fraud. I'm not sure it constitutes identity theft exactly, you could say the employees were impersonating customers by opening additional accounts, but no intimation that their info was being exposed or sold to outside parties. Not saying it's okay, I just think WF was more pissed that the company was getting ripped off than they were concerned about their customers.

And while we might picture greedy employees looking for bigger bonuses, it could be less about money than just trying not to lose their jobs for poor sales production. Which, of course didn't work out.

A felony committed out of fear of losing your job is still a felony.

[Frog Eater]

On 9/14/2016 at 6:40 AM, Inigima said:

Estate lawyer I know has told me that WF are one of two banks -- the other is BoA -- that he always recommends against doing business with. Those are the two banks who have tried to hold on to the assets of the deceased in the face of proper documentation and procedure. Never going to do business with WF as long as I live.

I know its anecdotal at best, but I have been dealing with my father's estate this year, and all of his accounts were with Wells Fargo, and I have nothing but positive things to say about them. They have been great to deal with. Always professional and expedient. Have answered any questions I had and assisted in any way they could. 

As the contrary point to your, I would highly recommend Wells Fargo to anyone. 

[White Walker Texas Ranger]

http://www.cracked.com/personal-experiences-2390-i-worked-wells-fargo-they-made-us-do-some-shady-shit.html

[Weeping Sore]

On ‎9‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 1:19 PM, Swordfish said:

A felony committed out of fear of losing your job is still a felony.

A felony...is...a felony. a = a, true by the reflexive property of equality.

[Swordfish]

4 hours ago, Weeping Sore said:

A felony...is...a felony. a = a, true by the reflexive property of equality.

Agreed.

 

[LongRider]

When I was on unemployment insurance in 2010 in Nevada, no checks were issued, but bank cards from, you guessed it; Wells Fucking Fargo.  Can you say cluster fuck?  I knew you could.  Later, on UI again in 2015, I started with the WF bank card then was able to switch to auto deposit to my credit union.  Even with UI WF found a way to charge.  The bank card was supposed to work in their ATMs w/o charge, but mine never worked and if I went inside and wanted a withdrawal a charge would be added.  WF is so dishonest.