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Things Robb could have done to prevent the disaster?


Valens

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First and foremost he should have kept it in his pants.  Second, he needed to realize that when you are the leader you have an obligation to your men.  You expect their loyalty, you have to be loyal to them.  If you want Tywin to make the crossing you have to tell Edmure "look, don't make it easy for them but we want them across, so put up some resistance but not too much".  To be mad/disappointed with Edmure for defending the crossings was foolish.  Third, make a decision on who exactly you are going to back, Robb didn't want the Iron Throne himself so, once the Baratheons have it sorted out you go to whoever has won and say "look, the Baratheon-Stark alliance was what put Robert on the throne, it will put you on the throne as well". 

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I think the first thing would have been to marry a Frey while his men crossed. It would take at least a day or two to cross 20k men, so there could have been a fairly quick wedding (e.g. Eddard with Catelyn before rushing to fight in Robert's Rebellion) with the promise of a larger and more opulent ceremony once the war was won. At that point, Robb has wedded himself to the Freys, and bedding Jeyne Westerling won't break things (though Walder would see it, rightly, as an insult to his family). I am honestly surprised that Walder didn't demand this, and cite the precedent of Robb and his father. That alone would have avoided at least the Red Wedding. 

 

Second was not sending the captured Lannisters AWAY to be held somewhere. The Twins are commented to be so strong that even with Robb's 20k soldiers they could not be successfully stormed (at least not without a Pyrrhic victory). Why not send them with a guard of, say, 200 Northmen to be held by Lord Frey at the Twins? Give them the distinction of holding the crown's valued hostages, and at the same time he avoids having the issue or Rickard's vengeance. 

 

I personally also think that he should have listened to his mother and traded Sansa and Arya for Jamie. He even could have demanded Ice back as well (I doubt even Lord Tywin would object to losing Ice and the Stark Girls in exchange for Jamie). The Lannisters would have had the ability to say that Arya escaped on the way to Riverrun to avoid suspicion there (The Wolf Girl ran away and escaped her captors!). However, Robb would have had a major bargaining chip. Then he could have, as he thought before, offered Sansa to wed Loras (or Willas, whatever). That would have secured an alliance between Robb and the Reach, allowing him some breathing room (as the Tyrells now cannot ally with the Lannisters since they murdered their child's Good Father). 

 

The last one would have been sending ANYONE else rather than Theon to negotiate with Balon Greyjoy. Heck, even sending Rickard Karstark with a strong honor guard would have worked (that solves the problem of Karstark's obsession with vengeance and Theon's questionable loyalty to Robb). 

 

I think those 4 would have avoided a LOT of grief. Obviously if he'd been able to stop his lords from crowning him (Hey, guys, maybe it's not a good idea to crown myself, since we can't hold back the other 6 kingdoms at once no matter what) and been willing to seek peace (either when he was winning and could have gotten better terms, or after he had lost and would have had to accept what was offered), that would have made the perfect situation combined with the other 3. 

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He should have told Jeyne:  "I can't marry you because it will anger Tywin and you don't want that.  If I win, I will get you a great marriage.  If I lose, you don't want to be near me."  Also, keep Theon close like Catelyn suggested.  Karstark I have no problem with.  His actions were intolerable, and Robb's response isn't unreasonable under the circumstances.

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First of all it is impossible to be King of the North and the Riverlands.  The norths sovereignty is based on the Neck and makes it much easier to maintain.  At the same time, he could not abandon his uncles in the Riverlands who immediately were a target after Ned's actions (Though their sister/niece in the Vale could).  As we know he was planning to return North after the "wedding" and I think that had the Frey's stayed loyal, by him maintaining his vows, that this plan may have worked.  Though river run and probably the Twins would have been a target quickly after the Blackwater and his return north.  Its hard to say how Roose would have acted had the Red Wedding not been an option.  Surely, he would have continued to look for opportunities to up jump but maybe Robb giving him/Ramsey Harrenhal plus their northern lands could have kept him happy?

I have a question for posters that related to the OP, trust me: I have a theory that Rickard Stark raised Brandon to be Lord of Winterfell and Ned gained most of his ultimate honor from his years in the Vale.  Rickard may have passed hints, truths, instruction, ect to Brandon who obviously died before becoming the Warden of the North.  My theory, and I think it comes back to the OP, is that Ned never truly understood what it would take to be a fully effective Lord Paramount as he was basically raised to be somewhat of a "knight" despite obviously being a northman.  We don't know a ton about Rickard's true nature but we know a bit about Brandon.  He made rash decisions that were in attempt to defend his family, though they may not have been that smart.  Perhaps he couldn't have predicted Aerys' madness and the severity of the consequences to his actions....What I am saying is Ned gained a lot of his personality from his time in the Vale, and I think he passed much of that on to Robb.  Yes, he passed all of his lessons on to all of his children but I tend to believe having Robb at some of his council meetings and such and their relationship was different than say Ned and Jon.  Jon very much cared about his vows to the Night's Watch.  At the same time he had feelings for Ygritte but also used that relationship to imbed himself with the Free Folk.  Yes, Jon feels guilty and loved her but he did not abandon his post and marry her or run away or what have you.  Robb too fell victim to his urges, but his honor swayed him to take Jeyne as a wife rather than just use the fact that he was not wed to just heal up and move on and marry his Frey.  I'm not saying one choice is better, all I am arguing is that perhaps Rickard had taught Brandon, a known playboy, that the protection of family, winter fell, the north, ect is more important than personal honor.  Whereas Ned learned Andal Chivalry and passed the lordly ways of the Vale down to Robb whom he presumed to be the next Warden of the North like Rickard thought Brandon would be.  I just have always thought that the fact that Ned never imagined being Lord of Winterfell mirrors Jons and is overlooked but we don't know as much about that time as we do about the current with Robb and Jon.   Counterpoints: Robert Baratheon didn't seem to pick up on the same honor as Ned but he also grew up with it originally as a Stormlander, Ned severely kept to the Old Gods but that doesn't mean he would dismiss andal factors that would make him an honorable man. Moral of the story, Robb and Sansa seemed to be the least "northerly" as evidence by Grey Wind sensing/smelling/knowing about the red wedding beforehand but Robb not having the wherewithal to understand that his dire wolf sensed danger.  So back to the OP: Robb should have trusted nobody but his dire wolf and all would have been well, damn that Rolph Spicer.   

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1) Don't declare yourself king. It immediately makes rivals out of Stannis and Renly, and discourages anti-Lannister lords who nonetheless feel more loyalty to KL than Winterfell.

2) Marry the Frey immediately, don't cheat on her. It ensures a stronger (albeit not complete) bond of loyalty from Walder, and doesn't give him cause to abandon you.

3) Don't send Theon back to the Iron Islands. However much you may trust him, you have zero reason to trust Balon.

4) If you need to give your underlings important orders, make sure you're specific. e.g. Roose, do not engage Tywin unless absolutely necessary. Edmure, hold Riverrun and only Riverrun. It saves confusion and some costly mistakes.

Roose wasn't necessarily a bad choice for infantry commander without the benefit of hindsight, but obviously that turned out to be another mistake. Karstark had what was coming to him.

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8 hours ago, fenr1s said:

 

His combined strength outnumbered Tywin's army by at least 7000-10000 men after the Whispering wood.

If Robb had marched down the Kingsroad after the battle of the Whispering Wood, it would have come to a fieldbattle against Tywin in which Robb would have had superior numbers and the army with higer morale.

And if Tywin and Kevan are captured or slained... well Tyrells would think twice before marching on KL.

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8 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

Can you give me one instance, outside of Robb refusing Roose's request about the marching order, of Robb ignoring Roose? Because I can't think of any, but can think of several where he did listen.

Well, that's the one, lol. Marching order request. I may have been under the influence of the show when I wrote that, but anyway, he must have done something to turn Roose into his enemy. I know that it was also due to Roose's own nature and the fact that The North were not doing so well at the time of his betrayal, he thought so anyway.

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Considering the military part he was the best. IMO:

  1. He should have kept Theon with him. 
  2. He should have kept Rickard Karstark imprisoned. Execution could wait.
  3. He should have married the Frey girl when Catelyn arranged the betrothal. This would secure the Frey-Stark alliance and he could have a child.
  4. Catelyn should be sent North as a castelan or even find her a husband. She is still young and fertile.
  5. He should have informed Edmure of his plans when he left for Westerlands. 
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9 hours ago, Valens said:

Well, that's the one, lol. Marching order request. I may have been under the influence of the show when I wrote that, but anyway, he must have done something to turn Roose into his enemy. I know that it was also due to Roose's own nature and the fact that The North were not doing so well at the time of his betrayal, he thought so anyway.

That is literally the only one. When Roose makes sensible suggestions to Robb, he listens, even agreeing to keep Theon alive in order to demand something from the Ironborn in return for his death. Robb congratulates Roose on his performance when they meet near the Twins, not knowing that Roose was sabotaging his war effort. Roose and Robb actually spent most of the war apart. Robb did nothing to Roose; Roose betrayed him out of practicality and ambition. He's not like Walder who had a genuine personal reason to be angry at Robb.

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Not wedding his Frey immediately was actually on Catelyn; she is the one who negotiated that the marriage should take place after the war. To be honest, I kind of like the idea that she could have prevented the Frey betrayal herself, and it never even occurred to her in all her pondering on Robb's stupidity in marrying Jeyne.

But that and pretty much all the things he did wrong that he really could have reasonably avoided (I don't think he could have reasonably refused to be crowned--his bannermen proclaimed him KitN, and if he'd tried to dial them down at that point, they would have lost faith in him as their leader--and at that point, the Riverlords were on Team Stark courtesy of Cat's family) were basically rookie mistakes:

If he wouldn't dishonor a highborn maid, he shouldn't sleep with her. But battle high, and dead brothers, hormones, and a pretty, willing partner > restraint

Having slept with her anyway, he still shouldn't have wed her. He was already betrothed, and the Freys had already fulfilled their end of the marriage contract. But pretty, willing, present girl > choice of Frey girls even Catelyn found uninspiring > judgment. And he probably never considered the consequences could possibly be of Red Wedding proportions.

Agreeing to Theon's terrible plan at all. Why the hell would Balon Greyjoy want to help the son of one of the lords who put down his rebellion rebel against the "son" of the king who put down his rebellion? He'd have been more likely to hope they kill each other. Or, you know, to do exactly what he did do. And Theon may have been his friend, but Robb hadn't been too impressed with his previous examples of initiative (shooting the wildling who had Bran, killing the direwolf pups),

And of course, having agreed to this terrible plan, sending Theon, their hostage against Balon's good behavior, to Balon. But to a 15 year old, trusting your friend is more important than logic, your own experience of said friend's lack of foresight, your own awareness that said friend is an arrogant, self-indulgent, inconsiderate jerk (granted, it was Jon who was more consciously aware of this, but Robb snapped at him over those very things, so even if he wasn't keeping track, just a bit of reflection would indicate that Theon was generally an ass), and you'll even repurpose that occasion when he shot the wildling, only without the part where you were FURIOUS at him, in his defense. Plus his mother told him not to. She was right about Theon, unfortunately.

And not telling Edmure why he wanted him to stay put (or even that he meant Edmure should stay put). That particular rookie move also bears a lot of resemblance to Tywin Lannister's habit of not telling anyone anything they didn't need to know, and it bit him in the backside, too.

So basically what most everyone has already said. :)

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15 hours ago, Rob Storm said:

First of all it is impossible to be King of the North and the Riverlands.  The norths sovereignty is based on the Neck and makes it much easier to maintain.  At the same time, he could not abandon his uncles in the Riverlands who immediately were a target after Ned's actions (Though their sister/niece in the Vale could).  As we know he was planning to return North after the "wedding" and I think that had the Frey's stayed loyal, by him maintaining his vows, that this plan may have worked.  Though river run and probably the Twins would have been a target quickly after the Blackwater and his return north.  Its hard to say how Roose would have acted had the Red Wedding not been an option.  Surely, he would have continued to look for opportunities to up jump but maybe Robb giving him/Ramsey Harrenhal plus their northern lands could have kept him happy?

I have a question for posters that related to the OP, trust me: I have a theory that Rickard Stark raised Brandon to be Lord of Winterfell and Ned gained most of his ultimate honor from his years in the Vale.  Rickard may have passed hints, truths, instruction, ect to Brandon who obviously died before becoming the Warden of the North.  My theory, and I think it comes back to the OP, is that Ned never truly understood what it would take to be a fully effective Lord Paramount as he was basically raised to be somewhat of a "knight" despite obviously being a northman.  We don't know a ton about Rickard's true nature but we know a bit about Brandon.  He made rash decisions that were in attempt to defend his family, though they may not have been that smart.  Perhaps he couldn't have predicted Aerys' madness and the severity of the consequences to his actions....What I am saying is Ned gained a lot of his personality from his time in the Vale, and I think he passed much of that on to Robb.  Yes, he passed all of his lessons on to all of his children but I tend to believe having Robb at some of his council meetings and such and their relationship was different than say Ned and Jon.  Jon very much cared about his vows to the Night's Watch.  At the same time he had feelings for Ygritte but also used that relationship to imbed himself with the Free Folk.  Yes, Jon feels guilty and loved her but he did not abandon his post and marry her or run away or what have you.  Robb too fell victim to his urges, but his honor swayed him to take Jeyne as a wife rather than just use the fact that he was not wed to just heal up and move on and marry his Frey.  I'm not saying one choice is better, all I am arguing is that perhaps Rickard had taught Brandon, a known playboy, that the protection of family, winter fell, the north, ect is more important than personal honor.  Whereas Ned learned Andal Chivalry and passed the lordly ways of the Vale down to Robb whom he presumed to be the next Warden of the North like Rickard thought Brandon would be.  I just have always thought that the fact that Ned never imagined being Lord of Winterfell mirrors Jons and is overlooked but we don't know as much about that time as we do about the current with Robb and Jon.   Counterpoints: Robert Baratheon didn't seem to pick up on the same honor as Ned but he also grew up with it originally as a Stormlander, Ned severely kept to the Old Gods but that doesn't mean he would dismiss andal factors that would make him an honorable man. Moral of the story, Robb and Sansa seemed to be the least "northerly" as evidence by Grey Wind sensing/smelling/knowing about the red wedding beforehand but Robb not having the wherewithal to understand that his dire wolf sensed danger.  So back to the OP: Robb should have trusted nobody but his dire wolf and all would have been well, damn that Rolph Spicer.   

We know that Rickard had "southern ambitions", and wanted to make the north more relevant in the court and in the realm, i think its pretty much clear that he was instructing brandon to follow his plan of bold decisions to expand house Stark influence, in this regard, Ned being a second son and fostered at the eyrie, never expected to have this level of responsibility, so he is pretty much a strong conservative,the stark contrast of Bradon, he is happy to maintain the position of his house, and as long as the "state"/kingdom keeps a minimum of order and stability, he would never act against it;

Ned Stark would be the perfect Castellan, or lord of a minor keep, as i think it was Rickard intention, that Ned would be Brandom Right Hand, as Kevan was to Tywin. an utterly diligent, modest, and trustworthy subject.

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As to the topic

1- he should never have executed Karstark, his authority had already being breached by his own mother, and he took no action to formally punish her, so to punish Karstak for a lack of authority and leadership in a just matter, the purpose of hostages are to be killed if their families desobeyed an agreement, and since tyrion plotted with catelyn to release Jaime, it is a breech of agreement, and to me its justify the killing of the lannister boys, the fact that was behind robb's back is due to his lack of command and authority due to his mother's actions. the execution was injust, and completely ruined the morale of his army and his respect as king,  he should have killed jaime as soon as ned was killed.

2-Marry the frey girl, send catelyn back to winterfell
 

3-Kept theon with him

4- inform edmure of his plans

5- Attack casterly rock, so tywin would have no time to ride for king's landing

6- let Roose flay people and go full on bolton on them, kept him close and reward him, having a man of the intellect and cunning as roose bolton by your side, since you're offering  real rewards for him, like more lands or castle's, would made Roose action as littlefinger acted for tywin. robb alienated roose.

 

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