MikeMartell Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 If I'm not mistaken the only a member of the Kings guard can champion a member of the royal family yes? So Why was Gregor able to fight against Oberyn after Joffery's murder? Is the an oversight by GRRM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canon Claude Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 Tywin and Cersei didn't care about the rules if it meant Tyrion would finally be out of their lives. And besides, who is going to object? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMartell Posted September 9, 2016 Author Share Posted September 9, 2016 Okay I get that. So why does it matter when Cersei recruits Un-Gregor to fight. It's made a point over and over that only a kings guard can champion royalty, they eve name him to the KG for this reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trigger Warning Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 I would imagine the Kingsguard has to defend a member of the royal family but when the royal family is the accuser they can choose anyone. I wouldn't really consider Tyrion's royal family status strong enough to warrant that tradition in regards to his defence either, especially when accused of regicide. Also GRRM probably didn't think of it in Storm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 2 hours ago, MikeMartell said: If I'm not mistaken the only a member of the Kings guard can champion a member of the royal family yes? So Why was Gregor able to fight against Oberyn after Joffery's murder? Is the an oversight by GRRM Gregor was representing the Crown as an institution. Essentially the government. Like in England criminal cases are called Regina v. Lannister or whoever. When Cersei is accused as an individual, she needs the KG to defend her. Tyrioni is not royalty. He is merely a brother by marriage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byfort of Corfe Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 3 hours ago, Nevets said: Gregor was representing the Crown as an institution. Essentially the government. Like in England criminal cases are called Regina v. Lannister or whoever. When Cersei is accused as an individual, she needs the KG to defend her. Tyrioni is not royalty. He is merely a brother by marriage. It does seem strange that the Royal Family (and I would agree that is limited to King/Queen/Princes and Princesses so Tyrion doesn't count) has to be defended by the Kingsguard but that the crown can go outside that to choose someone else to "prosecute" their case. Interestingly enough it is in his depiction of "Trial by Combat" that GRRM deviates from Medieval History and develops his own code. In the Germanic Tradition the accuser and accused dueled unless the person accused was a woman. This happened among the Lombards in the early 7th Century, the Queen was accused of plotting to poison the King and marry another. The King allowed for Trial by Combat between the accuser and a nobleman who would agree to defend the Queen. The accuser BTW was slain. In Arthurian Legend Guinevere is Championed by Lancelot (although in very early Arthurian Legend Arthur defends her himself). But also, in Medieval (and Dark Age) Europe Tyrion would not have been allowed the choice. Trial by Combat was reserved for cases where Courts and Judges were felt to not be able to come to a decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 I'm pretty sure Cersie only creates the rule that a member of the KG, should defend a member of the royal family, after she regains her power again in AFFC. It was pretty much just done as a way to screw Margaery and little else. At the time of the 3rd book though, I'm not sure if any such rule was in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Suburbs Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 I thought it had something to do with the fact that Cersie is the accuser in this case, not the defender. The KG must defend the crown against an accusation, but not when making one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferocious Veldt Roarer Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 21 hours ago, MikeMartell said: If I'm not mistaken the only a member of the Kings guard can champion a member of the royal family yes? Nope, Cersei ass-pulled that rule in "Feast", when she needed it to fuck Margaery over (or so she thought), it didn't exist before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nocturne Posted September 10, 2016 Share Posted September 10, 2016 On a side note, does anyone else really hate how this storyline ended? Its the one thing that really annoys me about the series. I get why Ned had to die, i get the red wedding, but this was just a tease for the sake of teasing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aenarion Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 You mean the Oberyn vs. Gregor fight and Tyrion's trial? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 7 hours ago, Nocturne said: On a side note, does anyone else really hate how this storyline ended? Its the one thing that really annoys me about the series. I get why Ned had to die, i get the red wedding, but this was just a tease for the sake of teasing. I agree with this. Having Tyrion go to Dorne with Oberyn would have gotten rid of the need for most of the Dorne POV's. If those POV's are absolutely needed, Oberyn and Tyrion could go across the sea as envoys from Dorne to Dany. Since we know Quentyn's only contribution to the story is to die and little else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aenarion Posted September 11, 2016 Share Posted September 11, 2016 Honestly, the story could have gone on pretty much as is, but with much more tension between the Reach and Dorne. Oberyn kills Gregor, and Tyrion is declared innocent. Cersei refuses to believe it, and hires assassins on the DL to kill Tyrion. Varys catches wind of it, and warns Tyrion through Jamie. Their conversation happens similarly to how it did, and Varys once again takes Tyrion for an "escape through the tunnels". Tyrion goes through the same conversation with Tywin, and kills him the same. Tyrion continues to Essos, and that storyline continues. Then we could have had Oberyn be the Dornish POV relaying to us what is happening in Dorne (though I think at least a couple other Dornish POV's would have been needed for that storyline to progress). The storyline with Tyrion continues with minor changes. Even the whole "Dornish Revenge" thing could have been continued, as they had not, at that point, killed "The head that spoke the words" nor visited Fire and Blood on the Lannisters. Honestly, if I'd been Oberyn I probably would have gone with something like, "The Mountain is beaten. Tyrion has been declared innocent by the gods". When Tywin objected that the Mountain was not dead, I would say, "He was stabbed through his bowels. He will die. Be it in a few hours, a day or three, he will die. I, for one, am content to let him lie there and suffer for his crimes." PS. Wouldn't it have been awesome if both the times Tyrion stood accused falsely and asked for a Trial by Combat, he was declared innocent. Then he was accused RIGHTLY of a crime, and he declared a trial by combat with some amazing warrior of awesomeness like Oberyn defending him. . . . and he loses to a no name knight/sellsword and is rightly declared guilty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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