Melisandre Theories???

[dsug]

Hey yall. For whatever reason I just randomly got into thinking about who/what Melisandre exactly is. Basically, I'm looking for some theories to blow my mind. I'm already aware of the Shiera Seastar theories (being her daughter or Shiera herself) so let's get weirder. If anyone is willing, please point me in the direction of some weird theories about her, because I know she's got something going on. 

Also: I already think/know that she's older than she looks

Thanks in advance  

[sifth]

She old powerful and not fully human anymore. She doesn't need to eat or sleep and never gets cold no matter where she is. Plus there's her superhuman powers, but that's a whole other topic, lol

[Curled Finger]

Yolk Boy wrote what I still think is the best theory for Melisandre's real identity and purpose.   Try googling Tears of Blood essay, I think.   He went to a lot of work on it and it just radiates excellence.    

[John Suburbs]

I think she is dead and raised, like BD. That's why the poison didn't affect her, she doesn't need to eat or sleep... And without the ruby, she's probably pretty gnarly.

 

 

[chrisdaw]

She has no hidden identity, her history is as we've been given. A temple acolyte who rose in prominence due to an innate magical ability, with which she is able to see visions in the flames and interpret them better than any other and sustain her life beyond what is otherwise natural.

She will convince Stannis to burn Shireen, for no gain. She will glamour Dany as Ygritte so that Dany can bed Jon and become pregnant. And she will go south and knowingly be lured into a trap by Jaime and defeated by him and Tyrion on Viserion. She will know she is going to fall but understand the importance of defeating Tyrion, and thus Viserion, will be such that she's willing to make the sacrifice, she will see it as her calling. She will fail in killing Viserion but injure him so much so as to remove him from the battlefield long enough to allow Jon to make it south until he must face Tyrion mounted on him, and his injuries will still persist which will make it possible for Jon to defeat him.

When she fights Tyrion, Viserion and Jaime she will unleash fearsome magics not known to exist. When she is defeated she will be decapitated, and her body/head displayed to King's Landing for a witch.

The key to Melisandre is that she is a true believer. She is a trickster and too sure of herself, understanding the stakes she has granted herself a unilateral ends justify the means moral authority, which is something the series is set to disprove. But that is for her to learn, to see. What she is not, and never has been, is a hypocrite. If the fires lead her to believe that her blood, her sacrifice, would do what she thinks Shireen's would, she'd willingly give her life. It's a war for the survival of the species, and the only value hers or any other life has is in its usefulness to win the war. And when the flames tell her that her death is of more use to the cause than her living, to defeating the Great Other and surviving the Long Night, then she will embrace the dragon's flame of her death.

[YOVMO]

12 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Yolk Boy wrote what I still think is the best theory for Melisandre's real identity and purpose.   Try googling Tears of Blood essay, I think.   He went to a lot of work on it and it just radiates excellence.    

I second. This was really good stuff.

[Seams]

22 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

She has no hidden identity, her history is as we've been given. A temple acolyte who rose in prominence due to an innate magical ability, with which she is able to see visions in the flames and interpret them better than any other and sustain her life beyond what is otherwise natural.

She will convince Stannis to burn Shireen, for no gain. She will glamour Dany as Ygritte so that Dany can bed Jon and become pregnant. And she will go south and knowingly be lured into a trap by Jaime and defeated by him and Tyrion on Viserion. She will know she is going to fall but understand the importance of defeating Tyrion, and thus Viserion, will be such that she's willing to make the sacrifice, she will see it as her calling. She will fail in killing Viserion but injure him so much so as to remove him from the battlefield long enough to allow Jon to make it south until he must face Tyrion mounted on him, and his injuries will still persist which will make it possible for Jon to defeat him.

When she fights Tyrion, Viserion and Jaime she will unleash fearsome magics not known to exist. When she is defeated she will be decapitated, and her body/head displayed to King's Landing for a witch.

Can you provide any citations from the text to back up some of these predictions, or are they entirely fan fiction?

13 hours ago, dsug said:

If anyone is willing, please point me in the direction of some weird theories about her, because I know she's got something going on.

A month or two ago, there was a thoughtful discussion of Bran the Builder and other legendary characters who might be reborn or reincarnated numerous times. It helped me to think in new ways about some of the players who seem to be so much larger than life - magical, charismatic, unstoppable, whatever you want to call it - compared to regular characters. @Macgregor of the North made a great breakthrough when he noticed that the phrase "a thousand years ago" often appears in connection with these characters. Subsequently, I've wondered if it might be just the word "thousand" that clues us to look at the event or character as something from legend.

Melisandre is often part of paragraphs that mention a thousand years or a thousand people. Often she is contemplating Stannis or Jon Snow in connection with a prophecy, but she becomes one of the legendary characters herself, I believe.

I expect you've already considered the parallels with Lady Danelle Lothston, who reportedly bathed in blood to preserve her beauty, and who was said to use giant bats to capture small children for her cook pots. GRRM probably wants us to see some of the Lady Danelle rumors as the work of unreliable narrators over the years, but we are also supposed to look for a grain of truth in these stories. In Melisandre, we see a woman who seems inexplicably youthful and who wants to burn royal children to death to help bring about a messiah prophecy. What will the legends say about her in a thousand years.

For what it's worth, I've been trying to sort out some Theon imagery, and I uncovered what may be a parallel between Theon "giving birth" and Melisandre giving birth to her shadow baby. I guess we all see Theon and Melisandre's story lines converging toward Jon Snow, who was very likely the product of the giving birth scene at the Tower of Joy. Does this mean that Lyanna, Theon and Melisandre are all parallel characters? I'm thinking maybe Melisandre is more like the anti-Lyanna: Lyanna's baby may be a king and Melisandre's shadow baby was a kingslayer, killing Renly. Lyanna is forever young because she is a statue in the Winterfell crypt; Melisandre is forever young because she's using some strange magic in her bathwater. Lyanna is really dead; Melisandre may be undead, as previous comments point out.

One place to look for some clues about Melisandre might be the other practitioners of the Red God religion. Thoros of Myr, Moqorro. What can their words and actions tell us about Melisandre's driving force?

As you can tell, this is all still a bit vague in my mind, but it's fun to try to puzzle it out.

[dsug]

3 hours ago, Seams said:

Can you provide any citations from the text to back up some of these predictions, or are they entirely fan fiction?

A month or two ago, there was a thoughtful discussion of Bran the Builder and other legendary characters who might be reborn or reincarnated numerous times. It helped me to think in new ways about some of the players who seem to be so much larger than life - magical, charismatic, unstoppable, whatever you want to call it - compared to regular characters. @Macgregor of the North made a great breakthrough when he noticed that the phrase "a thousand years ago" often appears in connection with these characters. Subsequently, I've wondered if it might be just the word "thousand" that clues us to look at the event or character as something from legend.

Melisandre is often part of paragraphs that mention a thousand years or a thousand people. Often she is contemplating Stannis or Jon Snow in connection with a prophecy, but she becomes one of the legendary characters herself, I believe.

I expect you've already considered the parallels with Lady Danelle Lothston, who reportedly bathed in blood to preserve her beauty, and who was said to use giant bats to capture small children for her cook pots. GRRM probably wants us to see some of the Lady Danelle rumors as the work of unreliable narrators over the years, but we are also supposed to look for a grain of truth in these stories. In Melisandre, we see a woman who seems inexplicably youthful and who wants to burn royal children to death to help bring about a messiah prophecy. What will the legends say about her in a thousand years.

For what it's worth, I've been trying to sort out some Theon imagery, and I uncovered what may be a parallel between Theon "giving birth" and Melisandre giving birth to her shadow baby. I guess we all see Theon and Melisandre's story lines converging toward Jon Snow, who was very likely the product of the giving birth scene at the Tower of Joy. Does this mean that Lyanna, Theon and Melisandre are all parallel characters? I'm thinking maybe Melisandre is more like the anti-Lyanna: Lyanna's baby may be a king and Melisandre's shadow baby was a kingslayer, killing Renly. Lyanna is forever young because she is a statue in the Winterfell crypt; Melisandre is forever young because she's using some strange magic in her bathwater. Lyanna is really dead; Melisandre may be undead, as previous comments point out.

One place to look for some clues about Melisandre might be the other practitioners of the Red God religion. Thoros of Myr, Moqorro. What can their words and actions tell us about Melisandre's driving force?

As you can tell, this is all still a bit vague in my mind, but it's fun to try to puzzle it out.

Yeah I definitely think she has a role beyond being an aide to Jon or Stannis. She has a destiny all her own, I believe. The show has helped in that respect (she says something like "I've been ready to die for years but the Lord has kept me alive for a reason"), but I think in the books it's just as clear. I like the idea that she's Jon's Nissa Nissa. Fate has brought them together, so Jon can kill her and stop the apocalypse. Almost a little "Vanessa Ives"-y in a way. 

And yes, I would very much be interested to hear what Thoros and Moqorro would have to say about her. 

[BlueNightzx]

In this story of grey characters and complex morality, melisandre is very much like stannis, he is a truly just man, and she is a truly believer of her faith, that's what make her, like stannis, so fearsome and ruthless, they've no second doubts.

And outside of her religious fervor, she is capable of kindness, as we can see when she personally asks that davos son stays as her page, so he can be safe, since davos lost so many sons in service of stannis.

she is a human in an supernatural body, but human nonetheless.

[dsug]

1 hour ago, BlueNightzx said:

In this story of grey characters and complex morality, melisandre is very much like stannis, he is a truly just man, and she is a truly believer of her faith, that's what make her, like stannis, so fearsome and ruthless, they've no second doubts.

And outside of her religious fervor, she is capable of kindness, as we can see when she personally asks that davos son stays as her page, so he can be safe, since davos lost so many sons in service of stannis.

she is a human in an supernatural body, but human nonetheless.

Yes I think that's always been GRRM's intention as well. She doesn't have malicious intent at all, she just sees the greater good and is willing to sacrifice a few for the many. She doesn't "enjoy" burning people at the stake, she simply believes it is something that must be done. She's not an evil character, she's a practical character. 

It's even reflected in simple dialogue scenes that she's not this evil aggressive witch. Just talking to her, she's actually rather pleasant. She's shown some wit and humor (at least on the show) and is friendly. Yeah, she's a little arrogant at first, but she's humbled eventually. 

[chrisdaw]

6 hours ago, Seams said:

Can you provide any citations from the text to back up some of these predictions, or are they entirely fan fiction?

From memory. Melisandre is foreshadowed by the dragon Meleys. Obvious name association. The dragon was female, very old, magnificently coloured scarlet red, cunning and no stranger to battle. There is a line about her taking a stallion in her fiery jaws, a nod to her grip on Stannis.

Rhaenys on Meleys is lured into a trap by Criston Cole (Jaime parallel), and fights his forces and Aegon II (Tyrion parallel) on Sunfyre (another Jaime) and Aemond (another Tyrion) on Vhaegar.

Knowing she could not win, Rhaenys still fought, and went down in a fiery blaze of glory, her death was extremely violent but she caused gross injury to Aegon and Sunfyre. Meleys is described as lazy but fearsome when roused, Mel is not lazy, but it's a nod towards her great dormant powers. Sunfyre and Aegon are effectively knocked out of the Dance due to Rhaenys/Meleys sacrifice, and when Cregan (Jon) and the winter wolves march south the text points out Criston Cole (Jaime) is without the aid of a dragon.

Meleys head is drawn through KL for show. This runs into Ursula Upcliff, another witch. She rode a blood red horse into what was a very religious battle, and had her head ripped off. The killer was Torgold the Grim, a fanatic of the Faith, the gold perhaps for Lannister, Aegon II (gold dragon standard) or Viserion, but I don't think I've fully placed Torgold.

Dany will learn who Jon is and will seek to bed him, because she will need a child and believe his dragon blood seed will be the only she is able to bring to term. And she's probably going to be right about everything besides the need for the child. Jon will not be willing, for a possible variety of reason.

Melisandre will aid Dany, Mel has full belief in the power of kings blood, waking dragons from stone, promised princes, etc, Dany's reasons will be nonsense to Jon but music to Mel's ears, her real purpose.

Jon asks Mel what she knows of his heart, but he already had the answer to that when Mel appeared to him in the spot where Ygritte died. Mel knows how to get Dany into Jon's pants, and she's capable of the magic required to do it, as we see with her glamouring Mance. She will glamour Dany as Ygritte to take Jon, that is the significance of these passages.

Dany's symbol for Jon is the blooming blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice. Dany is Bael (a nod to Balerion) the bard, the deceiver come to steal the blooming blue flower of Winterfell, Jon.

In KL there is a whore by the name of Dancy. The whore is closely named for Dany and wears blue flowers in her hair, Dany's symbol for Jon. A line describing her with the blue flowers harkens to the wording of Dany's vision. The freckled one wore a chain of blue flowers in her honeyed hair. Chain - chink, honeyed hair - sweet air. However, despite being named for Dany (+ Mance, the other of Mel's glamours, a combination of the two) and drawing a connection to Danys vision, Dancy's physical attributes are unmistakably that of Ygritte. Dancy makes a bet that she can bed her lord or else she'll lose her Black Pearls, and thus tries her best to do so. The situation is foreshadowing for Dany's, having to get her lord (king in this case) to bed her, or else her black dragon will stay lost to her.

The Black Pearls are another reference to Balerion, through the Braavosi courtesans, the first Black pearl named a child she had to King Aegon IV Balerion. Paralleling what Dany is trying to do here.

This is the treason for love. Dany commits it against Jon her king, by using his love, Ygritte, to trick him into impregnating her where he has otherwise refused. Jon is her mount to bed, there's no love in this as there was with Drogo, and Jon isn't to be dreaded (like Euron), she simply needs to bed him to get pregnant.

It is explained how when Rattle is burnt Mel felt the flames. In her visions she sees bodies locked in lust in fires and she herself burns down below in agony and ecstasy. As will happen when she glamours Dany and Jon takes her. We are told how a connection to the glamoured person is useful, perhaps necessary. Locations are therefor likely too, as when Mel appears to Jon as Ygritte she is waiting for him where Ygritte died, by the wall under the destroyed husk of the ?(can't remember which) tower.

While walking Winterfell, I think in the Ghost of Winterfell chapter, Theon happens by a man and woman having sex, or getting there, in a matching location. Against a wall, under a destroyed tower. The woman is wearing nothing but a wolfskin, and again she has the marked physical characteristics of Ygritte.

Dany will wait for Jon at the spot where Ygritte died, glamoured as Ygritte, as Mel did. Mel describes how items are useful in keeping the glamour, Mance wears a ruby at his wrist, Mel herself wears one at her throat. When Jon first meets Ygritte, he pricks her throat with a dirk, drawing blood, Dany will probably wear a ruby at her throat too for the glamour, and Jon will prick her with his dirk elsewhere.

During Mel's and Jon's exchange at the site of Ygritte's death Mel tells Jon to look upon the wall, that the moon has kissed him and etched his shadow against it. Dany is the moon, and Jon will take her there (or she will induce him to) against the wall. Dany is the moon of Drogo's life, as he was her sun and stars. We are told the sun and moon kissed and that the moon cracked and dragons poured forth. And so it was, Drogo and Dany, the sun and moon, kissed and dragons were brought forth from their union. We are told the sun and moon will kiss again, and so it will be. On a tangent the wall will probably crack here and that will lead to it falling, the wall only holding so long as the NW stay true, a shadow etched against the wall, the moon's face cracking and the sun hiding his face in shame, and so on.

Dany taking Jon by deception is the significance of the wildling custom of men stealing women, and some of the astrology, genders and sometimes symbols reversed. Dany is the red wanderer, for having wandered the red wastes, it being sacred to the Smith is because in having a child Dany is trying to forge Lightbringer. The wildlings call it the thief, as Dany is set to 'steal' Jon. When the thief is in the moonmaid, that is the best time to steal a 'woman'.

I will never father a bastard - you know nothing Jon Snow. I will never have a little girl. Both of them, wrong.

The logic of Mel convincing Stannis to burn Shireen I'm sure everyone is aware of.

[John Suburbs]

On ‎9‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 10:09 PM, chrisdaw said:

snip

Melisandre fighting a dragon? I can't see that happening. The woman literally worships fire. Her enemy is cold and darkness, She would considering a dragon to be a gift from R'hllor.

[aryagonnakill#2]

I agree with the sentiment that she is a fire wight like Beric.

[Durran Durrandon]

I don't have theories about who she is, but I wrote this a while about and what she is: Melisandre and the Night's Queen.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I think she is just a woman who was taken as a child and sold into slavery. I think she began as a sacred temple prostitute but worked very hard to be able to read the flames and become a priestess.  That she went to Asshai and learnt many supplementary magics and tricks to augment her powers. And that she believes Stannis to be AAR. But that she is perhaps not of the main branch of R'hllorism. I don't think she has a secret identity. 

[The Dew]

Based on yolkboy's essay Melisandre may have a very interesting backstory. It's worth reading. I want to believe that she is more than meets the eye.

[KnightTime]

Ok as I understand it, Mel is either a hundred years old or four centuries old, give and take some years.

...actually shouldn’t come as a huge surprise. Way back in 2012, Melisandre actress Carice van Houten told Access Hollywood, “I don’t know how old she is, but she’s way over 100 years, so she is a wiser spirit, in a way, but it’s difficult for me to say too much because A — we want it to at least stay sort of a mystery and B — I didn’t read the books.” As you can tell, this interview was given long before the HBO show went into intensive spoiler lockdown. In an interview after Sunday’s season 6 premiere, show-runner David Benioff calls her “Several centuries old.” 

Similarly, the actor who played Maester Cressen, Oliver Ford Davies, told journalists in 2013 that, according to van Houten, Melisandre is “400 years old.” She offered that fact up by way of explaining why her character survived poison in Season 2, Episode 1, and his character croaked.

If she is a hundred years the probably S + B = M is probably true.

if she is 400 years old, well there is this daughter of famous person who was called Daenys the Dreamer 

[SeanF]

On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 0:27 PM, The Dew said:

Based on yolkboy's essay Melisandre may have a very interesting backstory. It's worth reading. I want to believe that she is more than meets the eye.

Yolkboy certainly made a strong case.

But, even if Melisandre is a random peasant, her back story must be interesting, and probably quite horrible.  She was sold into slavery.  Her POV implies that she became a temple prostitute.  I don't know at what age temple prostitutes begin work, or whether she was a child prostitute, before being bought by the Red Priests.  But, her POV implies that she has very bad memories about it, which is unsurprising, given the general treatment of sex slaves in Essos.  Then it appeared she had some magical ability which her masters spotted, and so took her into the priesthood.  Then at some point, she was sent to Asshai to complete her training.  From TWOIAF, we're led to believe that shadowbinders mate with beasts and demons, and child sacrifice is practised by some of the magicians of Asshai. One can imagine the young Melisandre both participating in, and being subject to horrible things, during magical rituals there.  Maybe she was quite willing and eager to do such things, or perhaps she was threatened and frightened by her masters. By now, she's completely internalised the ideology of the Red Faith, but she does have qualms and fears.