Mormont's Raven

[YOVMO]

OK, nothing crazy like R+Mormont's Raven = J or anything but I feel confident in saying that I have doubts that there is anyone who seriously thinks all that is going on here is a bird who likes corn.

With that in mind I will say that I am not 100% sure what to make out of the bird. I will say that, more often than not, I think that the raven is being used by Bloodraven. To what end, I don't know. But we get something very interesting in Jon 1 ADWD.

 

Mormont's raven, now Jon's, wakes him up. Then comes in Edd with breakfast and news of a wildling and her dead babe who have come to surrender at the wall. Jon recalls a conversation he had with Aemon about Stannis being willing to burn a baby as a sacrifice and Aemon telling him there is power in kings blood. Jon takes a whiz and is thinking about Grey Wind and how Ghost knows he is dead. He thinks about Shaggydog and Summer. Then he says something really interesting. How I never picked up on this before I will never know.

 

Quote

He filled his basin from the flagon of water beside his bed, washed his face and hands,d owned a clean set of black woolens, laced up a black leather jerkin, and pulled on a pair of well-worn boots. Mormon's raven watched with shrewd black eyes, then fluttered to the window. "Do you take me for your thrall?" 

The emphasis here obviously mine,.

Ok, so here is what I am seeing. The shrewd eyes of the raven coupled with 2 pages of Jon just talking to it makes me think that someone has taken over that raven 6-skins style. I don't remember if other animals, while, say, being warged are described as having a creepy kind of look of intelligence for an animal but I am going to get on this one. 

But then asking "do you take me for your thrall" makes it really strange to me. I mean, in a sense Bran and Jojen were  the thralls of bloodraven through the three eyed crow to the tune of leaving home, traveling north of the wall and finding him in his cave....a pretty big feat for anyone...much less a cripple a simpleton and a Jojen.

Is Bloodraven manipulating Jon through the raven? If so, to what end? Did Bloodraven want Jon to die to fulfill some prophecy? Did Bloodraven use Mormont? If so, to what end?

 

I will say that I believe that Mormont knew about Jon's lineage....most likely through Bloodraven. Jon becoming the LC of the NW took a lot of very random things happening and through all of them that damned raven has been there. So, ideas? Coincidence? Is Bloodraven manipulating events? To what end? Is it someone else manipulating the bird and, in turn, the lords commander of the knights watch? Where did mormont get that bird. How old is he? How old are ravens supposed to get anyway? Is there any chance that LC Quorgle had the bird.

 

I am sorry if this seems a little rambling. I feel like there are all these thoughts in my head and I just can't piece them together so I am hoping that the replies I read here will jar something and make me a little more Marwyn and a little less Patchface. hoho

[Roose on the Loose]

More obvious is when the raven flies out of the kettle they use for the LC choosing, lands on Jon's shoulder and says "Snow!"

[sweetsunray]

I am pretty convinced that Mormont's Raven is often skinchanged by Bloodraven yes, not all the time but often. That raven does and says things a few times too often with implied meaning:

When Mormont lays Longclaw on the table to give it to Jon, the raven flies to the table, inspects the sword up close (BR would recognize Valyrian Steel) and says "Take it!" several times to Jon.

At Craster's twice a bear skull is mentioned and pointed out, first noted by Jon, then pointed out by Edd to voice his suspicions of Craster regarding murder. And during the discussion between Jeor and Craster the raven spreads its wings behind Jeor's head like a collar and cries Wall...making it a third bear skull on the wall, and what I think of as a Chekhov Bear Skull.

During the breakfast scene, the raven steals Jon's bacon. Jon calls him a thief and the raven cries "thief!" back while he sits on the "lintel of the door" (like the raven of the poem), likely trying to tell Jon he "stole" Val.

I don't think the raven's "corn" means anything really. It's imo what the raven can say all on his own without being skinchanged, like Hodor says Hodor all of the time (which might have an original meaning, but has become meaningless at present). However, sometimes the raven says it almost questioning or doubtful. I think that's a sign that BR is in there, making sure he says something raven-like and does not betray he's in there, just like we later read of Bran skinchanging Hodor and deliberately making sure he says "Hodor" once in a while.

That said, BR's influence as raven is no stronger than anyone else argumenting with Jeor or Jon. All he can do is try to alert someone on a notion or idea they already have. For example, the raven's "Take it" does influence Jon insofar that he does pick up Longclaw, but he would have picked it up eventually without the raven's comments just as well. Only Craster seems to understand the raven's suggestive wing-spreading behind Jeor's head and grins maliciously right after it. And Jon keeps on insisting he did not capture and therefore did not steal Val (while it is suggested that Val regards herself as stolen by him) to people. Hence, the raven's "Thief!" goes over his head. As the raven his influence is not that big, merely suggestive. The LC election example is one of those few instances that he had the most influence, first by saying "Snow," and then when Thorne argues that's what all the ravens have been taught to say by Sam, it deliberately chooses another word "kettle."

[YOVMO]

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

BR's influence as raven is no stronger than anyone else argumenting with Jeor or Jon

This is what I was thinking at first as well (nice point out about the lintel btw I hadn't noticed that one) but I am forced to wonder, because of the thrall question.

For instance, if Marwyn or Quaithe or anyone is sending dreams to people are those dreams only another voice to the recipient? 

I mean, Jojen is pretty influenced by the three eyed crow. He was a weird kid but I doubt he was sitting around already thinking "hey, maybe I should take the crippled brandon stark north of the wall to find Brynden Rivers" It was more than a mere suggestion. Bloodraven was inside his head. 

It also leads me to wonder how much Mormont knew. Bloodraven knows jon's ancestry. Did Mormont know.

And, about the sword. I had long believed that Longclaw was backfyre. I still think that the evidence is overwhelming but GRRM said "no" when asked so that puts an end to that. This makes me wonder what the deal is with the sword. I mean, blodraven/mormont's crow doesn't just land on it, see it is VS and think "sweet sword jon you def should take this its like totally awesome sauce" there was a sense of recognition there. So if not backfyre what is it? 

Finally, in ADWD Jon's dreams go from being just wolf dreams to some wofdreams and some crazy dreams. I am wondering if somehow bloodraven is getting in jon's head, if the raven is the means of doing it and if he was doing it to mormont before.

[sweetsunray]

22 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

And, about the sword. I had long believed that Longclaw was backfyre. I still think that the evidence is overwhelming but GRRM said "no" when asked so that puts an end to that. This makes me wonder what the deal is with the sword. I mean, blodraven/mormont's crow doesn't just land on it, see it is VS and think "sweet sword jon you def should take this its like totally awesome sauce" there was a sense of recognition there. So if not backfyre what is it?

VS is speculated to be what's referred to as "dragonsteel". Dragonstone and dragonsteel is what is claimed to be the sole weapons that can kill Others and could withstand the icy blades the Others wield without breaking. Pure speculation: BR probably did bring VS with him and likely may even have had an encounter or experience with an Other and knows what it does. So he checks out Longclaws's steel, notices it's VS and says "Go for it!"

Jojen was a greendreamer. BR didn't make him that. Reaching out to them in dreams is one thing. Making them thralls is a completely different thing. And to that I say "nope". We have Thistle who knows immediately when Varamyr tries to control her mind and she fights him immensely, while Hodor also knons and crawls away in a mental corner. Bran, Jojen, Mormont and Jon Snow still have "free will". Jon has wolf dreams because he's a warg. The weirdreams he has are with Bran, not Bloodraven. And the crazy dream in aDwD might be a dragon dream. And I seriously doubt BR can do it from a raven's mind. It's still a raven. If he could do that, why even try to speak? .

[YOVMO]

9 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

VS is speculated to be what's referred to as "dragonsteel". Dragonstone and dragonsteel is what is claimed to be the sole weapons that can kill Others and could withstand the icy blades the Others wield without breaking. Pure speculation: BR probably did bring VS with him and likely may even have had an encounter or experience with an Other and knows what it does. So he checks out Longclaws's steel, notices it's VS and says "Go for it!"

Jojen was a greendreamer. BR didn't make him that. Reaching out to them in dreams is one thing. Making them thralls is a completely different thing. And to that I say "nope". We have Thistle who knows immediately when Varamyr tries to control her mind and she fights him immensely, while Hodor also knons and crawls away in a mental corner. Bran, Jojen, Mormont and Jon Snow still have "free will". Jon has wolf dreams because he's a warg. The weirdreams he has are with Bran, not Bloodraven. And the crazy dream in aDwD might be a dragon dream. And I seriously doubt BR can do it from a raven's mind. It's still a raven. If he could do that, why even try to speak? .

Thanks so much for this a lot of super points. I am not sure when BR would have had an encounter with an Other prior to his time north of the wall. I mean, maybe prior to becoming LC when he was a ranger but that is the kind of thing that people would talk about. I totally believe BR brought VS to the wall, but can't think which sword it would be. Dark Sister? I have problems with that. I really did go a long time just believing that long claw was backfyre and haven't really re-evaluated since.

 

The point about Thistle really helped me clear up this question so, again, thanks for that. Jon having a dragon dream seems unlikely to me, though not impossible. I think it is more likely that his crazy dream is more akin to the stuff Rhaegar would dream when he slept in summer hall. But, no proof here just my general sense of things.

 

 

[sweetsunray]

3 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

Thanks so much for this a lot of super points. I am not sure when BR would have had an encounter with an Other prior to his time north of the wall. I mean, maybe prior to becoming LC when he was a ranger but that is the kind of thing that people would talk about. I totally believe BR brought VS to the wall, but can't think which sword it would be. Dark Sister? I have problems with that. I really did go a long time just believing that long claw was backfyre and haven't really re-evaluated since.

Dark Sister was his sword after all. But there are also daggers of Valyrian Steel (as Catelyn can attest to), smaller blades or knives made from VS. So, of course I mean BR might have had an encounter with an Other North of the Wall while carrying VS with him.

 

5 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

Jon having a dragon dream seems unlikely to me, though not impossible. I think it is more likely that his crazy dream is more akin to the stuff Rhaegar would dream when he slept in summer hall. But, no proof here just my general sense of things.

If he is Rhaegar's son then he has the dragon blood. Dragon dreams are nutty, and there is no rule that says they have to be exactly the way Dany dreams dragon dreams. She had dragon eggs. Jon has the Wall.

[Michael Mertyns]

 R+Mormont's Raven = J. Greatest new theory!

On a more serious note, even if BR is in the raven (which I agree that he probably is), he would still have limited ability to communicate the big ideas like Jon's parentage.

[YOVMO]

30 minutes ago, Michael Mertyns said:

 R+Mormont's Raven = J. Greatest new theory!

Much better than my old R+R=R theory

30 minutes ago, Michael Mertyns said:

On a more serious note, even if BR is in the raven (which I agree that he probably is), he would still have limited ability to communicate the big ideas like Jon's parentage.

Yeah. I think the part I was missing was that while in the skin of a different entity the skin changer is limited by their mental and psychological limitations

[YOVMO]

43 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Dark Sister was his sword after all. But there are also daggers of Valyrian Steel (as Catelyn can attest to), smaller blades or knives made from VS. So, of course I mean BR might have had an encounter with an Other North of the Wall while carrying VS with him.

yes, it is a totally valid idea. My question is: lets say Ranger Rivers is on a ranging north of the wall prior to becoming LC. And lets say he encountered an Other and killed him with VS or dragon steel. This would be something that people knew about. King Aegon IV's bastard son who became lord commander killed an other on a ranging is not a story that would go away soon. This means it had to happen at some point after 252 AC when he went missing. Again, totally valid and possible, but not really a lot of supporting evidence. In fact, there really isn't anything to support that the others were active at all prior to the rebirth of dragons and certainly BR didn't stab an other while sitting in the street.

 

It is also, I suppose, possible that someone else killed an other using VS (coldhands?) and BR just knows about it. It just seems very vague. I suppose that is just because we don't have TWOW yet. 

43 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

 

If he is Rhaegar's son then he has the dragon blood. Dragon dreams are nutty, and there is no rule that says they have to be exactly the way Dany dreams dragon dreams. She had dragon eggs. Jon has the Wall.

I love the idea that Dragon Eggs : Dany what The Wall : Jon

 

I had never thought of that. Really good stuff.

[cgrav]

The raven's words are like the weirwood's leaves rustling. It's about as much as the warg can do remotely through a raven or a tree. This is why it's good that GRRM wrote in a clear taboo of warging people: they'd give the plot away!

[sweetsunray]

7 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

yes, it is a totally valid idea. My question is: lets say Ranger Rivers is on a ranging north of the wall prior to becoming LC. And lets say he encountered an Other and killed him with VS or dragon steel. This would be something that people knew about. King Aegon IV's bastard son who became lord commander killed an other on a ranging is not a story that would go away soon. This means it had to happen at some point after 252 AC when he went missing. Again, totally valid and possible, but not really a lot of supporting evidence. In fact, there really isn't anything to support that the others were active at all prior to the rebirth of dragons and certainly BR didn't stab an other while sitting in the street.

Yes, the Others were active prior to the rebirth of the dragons: we see several Others kill Waymar Royce more than a year before the dragons were born. And not all of Craster's sons given to the Others were born only since then.

But yes, it was a top-of-my-hat speculative scenario on what may have gotten BR "lost" on a ranging. He disappeared right? That's when he went to the cave with the Children. Now how and why did he disappear? Ot he might have carried VS with him and the children told him it's matieral that can kill Others once they started to show up. Anyhow, there's no reason to doubt that BR has come to some information to realize that VS is dragonsteel and helps with the Others, which is why he urges Jon to take the sword while he's skinchanging the raven.

[YOVMO]

4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, the Others were active prior to the rebirth of the dragons: we see several Others kill Waymar Royce more than a year before the dragons were born. And not all of Craster's sons given to the Others were born only since then.

But yes, it was a top-of-my-hat speculative scenario on what may have gotten BR "lost" on a ranging. He disappeared right? That's when he went to the cave with the Children. Now how and why did he disappear? Ot he might have carried VS with him and the children told him it's matieral that can kill Others once they started to show up. Anyhow, there's no reason to doubt that BR has come to some information to realize that VS is dragonsteel and helps with the Others, which is why he urges Jon to take the sword while he's skinchanging the raven.

Yes. This all makes sense and how I forgot Royce and Craster's children is beyond me. I'll chalk it up to a case of the sundays.

[YOVMO]

29 minutes ago, cgrav said:

This is why it's good that GRRM wrote in a clear taboo of warging people: they'd give the plot away!

HAR!

[cgrav]

The weirwood meld allows viewing/access of past events, so it's completely possible that BR took a peek at the history of the Others through a southern weirwood.

[sweetsunray]

58 minutes ago, cgrav said:

The raven's words are like the weirwood's leaves rustling. It's about as much as the warg can do remotely through a raven or a tree. This is why it's good that GRRM wrote in a clear taboo of warging people: they'd give the plot away!

Absolutely!

21 minutes ago, cgrav said:

The weirwood meld allows viewing/access of past events, so it's completely possible that BR took a peek at the history of the Others through a southern weirwood.

That is the likeliest answer. He'd have seen into history and saw dragonsteel swords that made him think "Huh? That's VS before Valyria!" I do love that Longclaw inspection scene from Raven. Oh, the Old bear is giving him a sword. Let's check it out. Looks like VS to me. Very useful. "Take it! Take it!"

[sweetsunray]

47 minutes ago, YOVMO said:

Yes. This all makes sense and how I forgot Royce and Craster's children is beyond me. I'll chalk it up to a case of the sundays.

Happens to the best... so much stuff going on in the books

[BlueNightzx]

I agree that BR skinchanges the raven from time to time, not always, but sometimes, the raven is his eyes inside castleblack and i think he acted in the election by speaking "snow, snow" to manipulate the result.

also, the raven is damn funny, that chapter of the mutiny in craster's keep, all the black brothers were speaking about the kind of food that craster might have hidden, bacon, sausage, and then the raven in agreement says "corn" like "this wildling must have corn hidden also!"

[Black Crow]

As to the antiquity of Valyrian steel its worth noting that GRRM's blades are closely based on Damascus steel, which actually originated in India long before Damascus lent its name to it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel

[Black Crow]

Returning to the point, however, you might find the current discussion on Heresy 191 The Crows to be interesting.