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Opinions on Theon


INCBlackbird

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I've always pitied Theon. From the beginning he's caught between the family he was raised by and the family of his blood. He wants to be his father's heir, but hasn't grown up on the Iron islands, so knows nothing about ships, sailing, or the culture he hopes to rule. (There's some interesting comparisons with Dany here, but they can be for another thread). And that's before he gets captured by Ramsey, and has bits peeled off him in a slow torture. About the only truly bad decision I can fault him for is not burning Winterfell and retreating with his sister. I can understand why, the desire to outdo Asha is a big factor in his thinking here. But at the same time, he had to realise he couldn't hold Winterfell against the fury of the North. Asha retreats from Deepwood Motte in aDwD when faced with a similar decision.

 

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I still hate him, but at this point in the books I'm just tired of him(I'm tired of nearly all the characters)and the Ironborn in general a parasitic culture that I can't stand. 

When he got reeked I felt pity for him but thinking of those two innocent children that he murdered cured me of any and all pity. I don't care where he goes but I want him out the North. 

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2 hours ago, 1000th Lord Commander said:

I've always pitied Theon. From the beginning he's caught between the family he was raised by and the family of his blood. He wants to be his father's heir, but hasn't grown up on the Iron islands, so knows nothing about ships, sailing, or the culture he hopes to rule. (There's some interesting comparisons with Dany here, but they can be for another thread). And that's before he gets captured by Ramsey, and has bits peeled off him in a slow torture. About the only truly bad decision I can fault him for is not burning Winterfell and retreating with his sister. I can understand why, the desire to outdo Asha is a big factor in his thinking here. But at the same time, he had to realise he couldn't hold Winterfell against the fury of the North. Asha retreats from Deepwood Motte in aDwD when faced with a similar decision.

 

It's interesting to note that in Theon V, when Asha  comes to Winterfell to try and get Theon to leave, he gets lost completely in his own mind, and specifically in thinking that Asha is there to gloat at failure, to bring him down completely, to take his prize away from him because she's so desparately jealous of him (which is of course complete projection on Theon's part because he's the one who's jealous of her, Asha has no reason whatsoever to be jealous of Theon and she's genuinely there to help him) he's so focussed on refusing everything Asha says because he thinks she's against him that he barely even listens to her arguments. However, the moment he watches her leave he immediatly realises that she's right and berates himself for not going with her. It's very childish behavior and a lack of self reflexion on Theon's part. And it's basically the basis of all the mistakes he makes, and many of his reactions to other people, in essence, Theon is lead by his emotions and unable to make rational decisions when he's emotional (and he's always emotional, every single decision he makes is an emotional one).

And I think it's interesting that you mention parallels with Dany, because I think that's another thing they have in common, Dany also makes a lot of emotional decisions. I'm not a huge Dany fan though and I haven't exactly spent much time analysing her so feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong on that.

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4 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

Theon was always too busy feeling sorry for himself, he was raised in the stark family as almost a son, good training and good education.  And he betrayed them.  He's a necessary literary character but one I despise

Can you give me an example of when he felt sorry for himself? People often say that but I have analysed his chapters over and over and I don't remember any moment where he felt sorry for himself. Most of the time he's trying to boost his own ego cause he's insecure and doesn't want to admit it to himself.

Also, if you ask me, a captive doesn't owe anything to his captors so I don't think betrayal is the right word. Theon did a lot of bad things but in my opinion "betraying" the Starks isn't one of them.

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2 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

Can you give me an example of when he felt sorry for himself? People often say that but I have analysed his chapters over and over and I don't remember any moment where he felt sorry for himself. Most of the time he's trying to boost his own ego cause he's insecure and doesn't want to admit it to himself.

Also, if you ask me, a captive doesn't owe anything to his captors so I don't think betrayal is the right word. Theon did a lot of bad things but in my opinion "betraying" the Starks isn't one of them.

I'll address your second comment first.  While their forced pairing did, indeed, start out as a captive situation there are two things to be said on that matter.  The first is that it's  not a typical "captive" situation in that he wasn't kidnapped or taken hostage or anything.  It was a pretty common practice of the time.  Second, and most importantly, the Starks didn't use theon as many families used their captives.  They allowed him a great life with all the benefits that befitted a Stark child.  He said many times that he considered robb and jon brothers to him, so the Starks went out of their way to treat him altogether un-captive like.   Therefore I consider it a betrayal

To your first point, I wholly admit that there may not be any direct quote from Theon backing this up, but it's more his actions that say it for  me.  Rather than appreciating the opportunities the Starks gave him he rather harbored resentment towards them for not bearing the name stark.  Though his family had no choice in the matter he always resents them for allowing him to be a hostage.  He commonly, as it seems to me, adopts a "Theon against the world" attitude which IMO constitutes him pitying himself.  It's just his overall demeanor and character. 

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2 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

I'll address your second comment first.  While their forced pairing did, indeed, start out as a captive situation there are two things to be said on that matter.  The first is that it's  not a typical "captive" situation in that he wasn't kidnapped or taken hostage or anything.  It was a pretty common practice of the time.  Second, and most importantly, the Starks didn't use theon as many families used their captives.  They allowed him a great life with all the benefits that befitted a Stark child.  He said many times that he considered robb and jon brothers to him, so the Starks went out of their way to treat him altogether un-captive like.   Therefore I consider it a betrayal

To your first point, I wholly admit that there may not be any direct quote from Theon backing this up, but it's more his actions that say it for  me.  Rather than appreciating the opportunities the Starks gave him he rather harbored resentment towards them for not bearing the name stark.  Though his family had no choice in the matter he always resents them for allowing him to be a hostage.  He commonly, as it seems to me, adopts a "Theon against the world" attitude which IMO constitutes him pitying himself.  It's just his overall demeanor and character. 

well,it's not a typical captive situation as we know it in our time. and he wasn't a prisoner of war, like Jaime, he was a political hostage and he was treated exactly like a political hostage is supposed to be treated. And yes, it was common practice but that doesn't change the situation. It's true that Theon had nice food, nice clothes, a nice place to sleep and a good education, but he was not free to leave, he couldn't see his family and therefor grew up without any real parental figures (which among other things left it's scars behind), he was afraid of Ned, he felt unwelcome, because he didn't belong there and was judged for being a Greyjoy and last but certainly not least, he did actually grow up with the threat of death hanging over his head. I realise that most people (especially if they're not Theon fans) will miss certain important details but to just give you a quick example: the very first scene where Theon is introduced, is during the execution scene in the first chapter. he kicks the head of the deserter after Ned killed him. Why? Because he's afraid, this is the same way Ned would kill him if it ever came to that, but Theon has this fear of being weak (because he's insecure) and he would consider fear to be a weakness so he hides it from others and from himself, that's also why he smiles all the time. it's a psychological defense mechanism called reaction formation, whenever he feels something he'd consider inappropriate (which in Theon's case happens constantly because he's got a huge identity crisis going on) he smiles to hide it. Nice clothes and a place to sleep isn't everything, Theon needed a place to belong, people who accepted him and taught him how to deal with his issues (both those he already had from growing up with abusive brothers and an asshole of a father and those he got from being a hostage in Winterfell). Just to be clear, I do not in any way blame Ned for this, it wasn't his responsibility, I blame the system, it will automatically mess people up. Theon never said Jon was like a brother to him, only Robb treated him un-captive like.

Theon certainly wanted to be a Stark but actually he didn't bear any resentment as far as I remember, Lady Dustin hated them because she wanted to be one of them but couldn't, Theon loved them even if he couldn't be one of them. I mean, when he's invaded Winterfell he completely forgets about his father and trying to be a stereotypical Greyjoy, suddenly it's all "what would Lord Stark do" "I must be like Lord Stark so people will respect me like they did him" "Lord Stark would not approve of this oh no" and so on and so forth. Taking Winterfell was never about revenge, it was about acceptance. While he was a Stark captive he dreamed about going home because that was his support to keep going, he told himself that he didn't need to be a Stark because he had a family who would accept him with open arms when he got home. when that doesn't happen, he needs a new support and there comes the idea of taking Winterfell, because if Pyke doesn't accept him he needs Winterfell to do it. He's basically just looking for a home and going back and forth between the two places he wants as a home because neither want him.

I do agree that he has a "Theon against the world" attitude. also because he gets really emotional and has very little self awareness, he can be very childish as well, I really think he still had a lot of growing up to do before anyone should have even considered giving him any kind of power whatsoever. I don't blame him for that attitude though, I mean... his life sucks, no one but Robb (and Asha but Theon thought she hated him which I also can't really blame him for) ever wanted him.

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5 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

well,it's not a typical captive situation as we know it in our time. and he wasn't a prisoner of war, like Jaime, he was a political hostage and he was treated exactly like a political hostage is supposed to be treated. And yes, it was common practice but that doesn't change the situation. It's true that Theon had nice food, nice clothes, a nice place to sleep and a good education, but he was not free to leave, he couldn't see his family and therefor grew up without any real parental figures (which among other things left it's scars behind), he was afraid of Ned, he felt unwelcome, because he didn't belong there and was judged for being a Greyjoy and last but certainly not least, he did actually grow up with the threat of death hanging over his head. I realise that most people (especially if they're not Theon fans) will miss certain important details but to just give you a quick example: the very first scene where Theon is introduced, is during the execution scene in the first chapter. he kicks the head of the deserter after Ned killed him. Why? Because he's afraid, this is the same way Ned would kill him if it ever came to that, but Theon has this fear of being weak (because he's insecure) and he would consider fear to be a weakness so he hides it from others and from himself, that's also why he smiles all the time. it's a psychological defense mechanism called reaction formation, whenever he feels something he'd consider inappropriate (which in Theon's case happens constantly because he's got a huge identity crisis going on) he smiles to hide it. Nice clothes and a place to sleep isn't everything, Theon needed a place to belong, people who accepted him and taught him how to deal with his issues (both those he already had from growing up with abusive brothers and an asshole of a father and those he got from being a hostage in Winterfell). Just to be clear, I do not in any way blame Ned for this, it wasn't his responsibility, I blame the system, it will automatically mess people up. Theon never said Jon was like a brother to him, only Robb treated him un-captive like.

Theon certainly wanted to be a Stark but actually he didn't bear any resentment as far as I remember, Lady Dustin hated them because she wanted to be one of them but couldn't, Theon loved them even if he couldn't be one of them. I mean, when he's invaded Winterfell he completely forgets about his father and trying to be a stereotypical Greyjoy, suddenly it's all "what would Lord Stark do" "I must be like Lord Stark so people will respect me like they did him" "Lord Stark would not approve of this oh no" and so on and so forth. Taking Winterfell was never about revenge, it was about acceptance. While he was a Stark captive he dreamed about going home because that was his support to keep going, he told himself that he didn't need to be a Stark because he had a family who would accept him with open arms when he got home. when that doesn't happen, he needs a new support and there comes the idea of taking Winterfell, because if Pyke doesn't accept him he needs Winterfell to do it. He's basically just looking for a home and going back and forth between the two places he wants as a home because neither want him.

I do agree that he has a "Theon against the world" attitude. also because he gets really emotional and has very little self awareness, he can be very childish as well, I really think he still had a lot of growing up to do before anyone should have even considered giving him any kind of power whatsoever. I don't blame him for that attitude though, I mean... his life sucks, no one but Robb (and Asha but Theon thought she hated him which I also can't really blame him for) ever wanted him.

All fair points, and not much in there that I can argue with, unfortunately ( I do love myself a good argument)

I guess I've always disliked Theon because he so quickly allowed himself to be psychologically destroyed (read: brainwashed) by Ramsey.  that is probably more my failing than anything else because the book, and show, are pretty clear that what Theon went through was devastating and would have messed up any man.  But something just didn't sit right with me with how sniveling he was and so damn obedient with ramsey all the time.  I get he was tortured and everything but (maybe as a consequence of my military back ground, where we are taught that in captivity, no matter the torture you should always be plotting the next escape attempt) I think he should have been a bit more rebellious, and active in his escape efforts

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36 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

All fair points, and not much in there that I can argue with, unfortunately ( I do love myself a good argument)

I guess I've always disliked Theon because he so quickly allowed himself to be psychologically destroyed (read: brainwashed) by Ramsey.  that is probably more my failing than anything else because the book, and show, are pretty clear that what Theon went through was devastating and would have messed up any man.  But something just didn't sit right with me with how sniveling he was and so damn obedient with ramsey all the time.  I get he was tortured and everything but (maybe as a consequence of my military back ground, where we are taught that in captivity, no matter the torture you should always be plotting the next escape attempt) I think he should have been a bit more rebellious, and active in his escape efforts

It wasn't quick at all though, Theon was Ramsay's captive for 9 months (i've counted that ages ago using the online timeline), and he tried to escape at least once and Kyra died, furthermore it was a trap from Ramsay to make Theon doubt any escape oppertunity he might ever have, it was psychological manipulation, Ramsay's good at that. not to mention that he wasn't even broken after all the time cause well... he did manage to regain his identity and escape, which shows a huge ammount of strength most people wouldn't be capable off.

Also I can that if you get captured in war all you can really do is try to escape, so that might be usefull advice, but if you're not able to that is not on you, neither is it on you if you break from the torture, it's never the victim's fault.

Also, I don't know if you know anything about the effects of torture (both physical and psychological) on a person but I certainly do. I know several people who've had first hand experience with it, I have some experience myself and I've done a lot of reading on it. People break under torture very quickly and will do anything to make it stop. But with Ramsay it goes much further than that, he actually tortured him specifically to break him and rebuild him and he knew what he was doing. He started with making Theon feel defenseless, built himself up to be some kind of all knowing, all seeing god to Theon, and the effects of that are lasting, I believe that even after Ramsay dies (because lets face it, he will die) Theon will be afraid of him, afraid that he's not really back, afraid that someone similar to Ramsay will get him, that fear is there to stay. Then Ramsay took everything that Theon used to define himself, everything he leaned on.

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2 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

It wasn't quick at all though, Theon was Ramsay's captive for 9 months (i've counted that ages ago using the online timeline), and he tried to escape at least once and Kyra died, furthermore it was a trap from Ramsay to make Theon doubt any escape oppertunity he might ever have, it was psychological manipulation, Ramsay's good at that. not to mention that he wasn't even broken after all the time cause well... he did manage to regain his identity and escape, which shows a huge ammount of strength most people wouldn't be capable off.

Also I can that if you get captured in war all you can really do is try to escape, so that might be usefull advice, but if you're not able to that is not on you, neither is it on you if you break from the torture, it's never the victim's fault.

Also, I don't know if you know anything about the effects of torture (both physical and psychological) on a person but I certainly do. I know several people who've had first hand experience with it, I have some experience myself and I've done a lot of reading on it. People break under torture very quickly and will do anything to make it stop. But with Ramsay it goes much further than that, he actually tortured him specifically to break him and rebuild him and he knew what he was doing. He started with making Theon feel defenseless, built himself up to be some kind of all knowing, all seeing god to Theon, and the effects of that are lasting, I believe that even after Ramsay dies (because lets face it, he will die) Theon will be afraid of him, afraid that he's not really back, afraid that someone similar to Ramsay will get him, that fear is there to stay. Then Ramsay took everything that Theon used to define himself, everything he leaned on.

I agree that given the timeline the psychological effects were probably more pronounced than I realized.  I disagree, however, about your assertion about how quickly people  cave under torture.  I have a fair bit of experience in this and I know of many people who lasted years with the proper training.  It's all a mind game and you must engage in it yourself, the mistake your friends most likely made is the same that most people would: attempting to be John Wayne " I aint gonna tell you nuthin."  That's not the proper way.  Due to clearance issues and sensitive info I can't go into it, so i'll leave it at that.

Having read your last paragraph I do though agree with you about the depth of the psychological torture theon experienced.  Ramsey did, indeed, make himself out to be omnipotent/omniscient, so I think you may be right. 

Unfortunately at the end of the day I simply have some sort of bias against Theon, whether founded in fact or not I can't say.  I am a big Stark fan and he betrayed them so in my head (even if not in reality) it's pretty black and white.  I just don't like 'em, and I doubt I will

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Controversial opinion : I am not the biggest fan of the whole 'Reek' thing to be honest. It just felt wrong. I mean, yeah I get yet war is full of horrors, the Boltons are the worst - but *that* just felt too disgusting for my taste. Writing is superub of course - that scene where he breaks down in the Godswood is fantastic - but still, that is something that always turns me off while reading ADwD

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12 minutes ago, The Lone Rider said:

Controversial opinion : I am not the biggest fan of the whole 'Reek' thing to be honest. It just felt wrong. I mean, yeah I get yet war is full of horrors, the Boltons are the worst - but *that* just felt too disgusting for my taste. Writing is superub of course - that scene where he breaks down in the Godswood is fantastic - but still, that is something that always turns me off while reading ADwD

I agree, truthfully I'm not sure what it added to the story other than to let the reader know that Ramsey is an awful human being.  Theon was a minor character anyway, so mutilating him and psychologically damaging  him to no real end felt odd. 

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2 hours ago, spauldo17 said:

Theon was always too busy feeling sorry for himself, he was raised in the stark family as almost a son, good training and good education.  And he betrayed them.  He's a necessary literary character but one I despise

That's complete BS though, Catelyn only thinks of him suspiciously and the only time Eddard even has a thought about him, it's about his value as a hostage. This whole "he was a member of the family" shtick is old, and is a ridiculous extrapolation of his genuinely close relation with Robb.

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7 minutes ago, spauldo17 said:

I agree, truthfully I'm not sure what it added to the story other than to let the reader know that Ramsey is an awful human being.  Theon was a minor character anyway, so mutilating him and psychologically damaging  him to no real end felt odd. 

It also  just fucking keeps going on man. He's eating rats Martin, we get it, he's fucked. Then these details just keep popping out of nowhere, and it just keeps getting more and more fucked. And that castration was just torture porn 

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7 minutes ago, Sullen said:

That's complete BS though, Catelyn only thinks of him suspiciously and the only time Eddard even has a thought about him, it's about his value as a hostage. This whole "he was a member of the family" shtick is old, and is a ridiculous extrapolation of his genuinely close relation with Robb.

he has stated many times that he views robb as a brother.  And "member of the family" or not he was still raised well, given access to all the education the stark kids had.  And robb was his best friend, if he truly felt that way it should've been more difficult to betray the Starks and it wasn't.

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