Opinions on Theon

[sifth]

47 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

actually, in real life we have courts for a reason, if it were that black and white we wouldn't need them cause we'd consider any killing of a child the exact same. which is not at all the case, especially with murder there is a long trial in which is taken into account the circemstances, the psychological and emotional state of the murderer and that information is used to determine which punishment they get.

Also, a pov is not always needed, it's easier to analyse a character with a pov of course but I have analysed Ramsay and Tywin to a certain extent perfectly fine without one. as have others.

Even if it were the case though, whenever we have acces to a pov shouldn't we use that information? why should we ignore it according to you, to me at least it's what makes these books so interesting, I read them for the characters. asoiaf has the most realistic characters i've ever encountered, why would you want to reduce them to flat black and white characters?

If anything Theon's POV only makes him murdering those kids worse. We're shown that Theon knew full well what he was doing was wrong, but did it anyway. Unlike The Mountain, who is more or less a mindless beast, Theon at least has some form of a conscious.

[INCBlackbird]

10 minutes ago, sifth said:

If anything Theon's POV only makes him murdering those kids worse. We're shown that Theon knew full well what he was doing was wrong, but did it anyway. Unlike The Mountain, who is more or less a mindless beast, Theon at least has some form of a conscious.

I honestly don't understand your apparent lack of understanding of human psychology but ok if that's your opinion...

[sifth]

12 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

I honestly don't understand your apparent lack of understanding of human psychology but ok if that's your opinion...

As a teacher, I will never defend a child killer. The very act of doing such a horrible thing honestly makes me sick.

[INCBlackbird]

Just now, sifth said:

As a teacher, I will never defend a child killer. The very act of doing such a horrible thing honestly makes me sick.

Then I don't understand how you can read these books, I mean how many characters can you truely like then? Or don't you read it for the characters?

[sifth]

14 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

Then I don't understand how you can read these books, I mean how many characters can you truely like then? Or don't you read it for the characters?

Some characters I hate, some I don't. I would honestly think it would be that way for most people.

[INCBlackbird]

Just now, sifth said:

Some characters I hate, some I don't. I would honestly think it would be that way for most people.

well yeah but a large percentage of the characters have done things as bad or worse then Theon has, and if you only look at it in a black and white way and only look at the actions and automatically hate the character then you must hate the majority of the characters in these books. I don't really understand how you can enjoy them that way? I mean for me... there's two characters that I don't like (wouldn't even say that I hate them, that's too strong a word) and they already frustrate me endlessly.

[Winter's Cold]

1 hour ago, INCBlackbird said:

well yeah but a large percentage of the characters have done things as bad or worse then Theon has, and if you only look at it in a black and white way and only look at the actions and automatically hate the character then you must hate the majority of the characters in these books. I don't really understand how you can enjoy them that way? I mean for me... there's two characters that I don't like (wouldn't even say that I hate them, that's too strong a word) and they already frustrate me endlessly.

Theon murdered children to as a way to enforce his authority over both his men and the people of Winterfell. That's certainly worse than what most other characters have done.

[Anirbas]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

As a teacher, I will never defend a child killer. The very act of doing such a horrible thing honestly makes me sick.

I hope you are not a fan of Jaime, Sandor, Cersei, Robert, Tywin, Petyr etc. or I have bad news for you.

Stannis was almost convinced to use Edric for a sacrifice iirc, and if it wasn't for Davos he would be in the category above (I put Jaime because he had the intention twice - one for Bran and one for Arya, if we don't count the threat of launching Edmure's heir with the trebuchet - but he failed or lost his occasion to do so, Petyr is not a child killer but a man who force in prostitution a girl of 12 is not better, moreover he's trying to eliminate SweetRobin)
Actually, even if he never killed a child, when Jon accepted the baby swap of Mance's son with Gilly's  basically doomed the latter to a horrible death. Is he evil?

Comparing Theon with Gregor or Ramsay is preposterous. Theon isn't a good person by any means, but evil? I think that GRRM gave us enough material to understand him, the reasons for his actions, and it's not because he enjoys what he does. He thinks that he has no choice. He feels guilt. As already said by INCBlackbird, Theon's very damaged by a traumatic childhood made of physical and psychological abuse by the hands of his brothers (and I suppose his father too), neglect and humiliation. Theon deeply fears humiliation, because he experienced it as a child, before turning 10 yo. In your opinion, what boy of 20 would say "Only a fool humbles himself when the world is so full of men eager to do that job for him."? I don't justify his action, I don't say that he's innocent, but at least I try to understand why a young man accepts to do such a terrible act as killing children and in my opinion it's pretty tragic.

[INCBlackbird]

2 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

Theon murdered children to as a way to enforce his authority over both his men and the people of Winterfell. That's certainly worse than what most other characters have done.

you're really simplifying why Theon killed those kids. And I don't think so. Theon has very little blood on his hand considering his position in the world he lives in. Most of the "heroes" have more blood on their hands and often for less valid reasons.

[sifth]

2 hours ago, INCBlackbird said:

well yeah but a large percentage of the characters have done things as bad or worse then Theon has, and if you only look at it in a black and white way and only look at the actions and automatically hate the character then you must hate the majority of the characters in these books. I don't really understand how you can enjoy them that way? I mean for me... there's two characters that I don't like (wouldn't even say that I hate them, that's too strong a word) and they already frustrate me endlessly.

And many of them I view as monsters as well. Did it ever occur to you that I enjoy reading about monsters such as Theon, Tywin and Roose. I really enjoy the crap excuses they make to justify their actions, they're rather funny. Vic is my favorite monster of the series. The guy is pure evil, but at the same time a comedy factory.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Anirbas said:

I hope you are not a fan of Jaime, Sandor, Cersei, Robert, Tywin, Petyr etc. or I have bad news for you.

Stannis was almost convinced to use Edric for a sacrifice iirc, and if it wasn't for Davos he would be in the category above (I put Jaime because he had the intention twice - one for Bran and one for Arya, if we don't count the threat of launching Edmure's heir with the trebuchet - but he failed or lost his occasion to do so, Petyr is not a child killer but a man who force in prostitution a girl of 12 is not better, moreover he's trying to eliminate SweetRobin)
Actually, even if he never killed a child, when Jon accepted the baby swap of Mance's son with Gilly's  basically doomed the latter to a horrible death. Is he evil?

Comparing Theon with Gregor or Ramsay is preposterous. Theon isn't a good person by any means, but evil? I think that GRRM gave us enough material to understand him, the reasons for his actions, and it's not because he enjoys what he does. He thinks that he has no choice. He feels guilt. As already said by INCBlackbird, Theon's very damaged by a traumatic childhood made of physical and psychological abuse by the hands of his brothers (and I suppose his father too), neglect and humiliation. Theon deeply fears humiliation, because he experienced it as a child, before turning 10 yo. In your opinion, what boy of 20 would say "Only a fool humbles himself when the world is so full of men eager to do that job for him."? I don't justify his action, I don't say that he's innocent, but at least I try to understand why a young man accepts to do such a terrible act as killing children and in my opinion it's pretty tragic.

Gilly's kid was never killed though. In fact Stannis never even once talked about killing the kid. If anything this is just Jon viewing the situation wrong. Once Stannis or Jon burn a baby come back and talk with me about it.

[Theon_the_original]

He definitely has a great name.

 

[The Wolves]

4 hours ago, INCBlackbird said:

you're really simplifying why Theon killed those kids. And I don't think so. Theon has very little blood on his hand considering his position in the world he lives in. Most of the "heroes" have more blood on their hands and often for less valid reasons.

Here's a question that I think you can answer fully for me. 

Why do you think Theon wanted Ned to be a father to him yet we never get the sense that he wanted Catelyn to be like a mother figure, why do you think that is? 

[The Marquis de Leech]

6 hours ago, Anirbas said:

I hope you are not a fan of Jaime, Sandor, Cersei, Robert, Tywin, Petyr etc. or I have bad news for you.

Not to mention Robb Stark (how many thousands of children died because of his decision to rebel?). Or Arya Stark, for that matter?

Unrepentant child murderers are a dime a dozen in the series. Theon shows a bit of conscience, and everyone jumps all over him.

[Wall Flower]

9 minutes ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

Not to mention Robb Stark (how many thousands of children died because of his decision to rebel?). Or Arya Stark, for that matter?

Unrepentant child murderers are a dime a dozen in the series. Theon shows a bit of conscience, and everyone jumps all over him.

When it comes to child murder, the time to show a bit of conscience is before you agree to the deliberate murder of two boys to avoid looking weak in front of your men and to cover up your own incompetence. I'm not without sympathy for Theon in some respects but that doesn't make his action excusable. As my mum used to say, 'everyone does it' is not a defence.

I agree that all the nobility have dirty hands when it comes to the death of innocents in their wars but that doesn't make deliberate murder less reprehensible. As it stands, we don't actually know how many children died as a results of Robb's actions, other than the two deliberately killed by Karstark who Robb punished for his crimes at some risk to his own cause. 

[INCBlackbird]

3 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Here's a question that I think you can answer fully for me. 

Why do you think Theon wanted Ned to be a father to him yet we never get the sense that he wanted Catelyn to be like a mother figure, why do you think that is? 

two reasons: Theon wanted to be a Stark and Ned is the patriarch of the family, he's the one who holds the decision of whether ot not to marry Theon to Sansa, or even to just accept him as being a Stark.

And Second, Theon has a form of stockholm syndrome for Ned. Ned holds his life in his hands and if Theon can convince himself that Ned cares about him he can use that to convince himself that if his father ever rebels Ned wouldn't kill him. it's classic stockholm syndrome. Trying to created a bond with your captor in order to feel safer.

[OwloftheRainwood]

13 hours ago, INCBlackbird said:

Theon is a child murderer yes, as are many characters that are considered heroes by most of the fans. A traitor... well with the choice he was given he would have been a traitor no matter what he did so I don't think you can put that on him. He didn't owe the Starks anything and he is a Greyjoy after all so obviously he was gonna pick his own family, it was a hard choice for Theon considering his feelings about Robb but in the end he had little choice.

It's somewhat disturbing how you brush off child murder with basically an "everybody does it" argument. Sure, other characters kill children, and they aren't my heroes. I'm not sure I even have "heroes" in ASOIF, the story is very nuanced. I never said Theon "owed the Starks anything". He didn't, but that doesn't make his actions any less foolish.

Yes, I agree that Theon had a difficult choice, which he calculated, acted, and failed epically. He went with the Greyjoys (who you admit were a bad family that mistreated Theon) who probably would never trust him anyway and betrayed his only friend and childhood companion. Bad move. 

13 hours ago, INCBlackbird said:

Also, Theon did manage to take Winterfell with 30 men, a lot of people seem to forget about that, that was strategically brilliant, however his logic often gets clouded by his emotions, that's why he makes a lot of very bad decisions.

No, this was a tactical victory if anything. Not strategic: he was much too far from resupply and reinforcements and did not have the men to hold Winterfell, especially with a hostile population. Usually, tactics refer short term, strategy is long term.

13 hours ago, INCBlackbird said:

Evil people don't feel guilt.

Basically you're saying only sociopaths are evil. From my perspective, if you do evil things, you are evil regardless of how you feel about it. While it doesn't erase child murder, characters can change and grow so it's not "black and white". That's why I appreciate Theon's character development, many high and very low points for him. For some reason I have a nagging suspicion he will somehow survive Stannis and the Northmen.

[INCBlackbird]

5 hours ago, sifth said:

And many of them I view as monsters as well. Did it ever occur to you that I enjoy reading about monsters such as Theon, Tywin and Roose. I really enjoy the crap excuses they make to justify their actions, they're rather funny. Vic is my favorite monster of the series. The guy is pure evil, but at the same time a comedy factory.

I like reading about monsters like Roose, Ramsay and Tywin as well but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about characters like Robb, Dany... characters who are considered heroes but have way more blood on their hands then Theon.

[OwloftheRainwood]

1 hour ago, Roose Boltons Pet Leech said:

Not to mention Robb Stark (how many thousands of children died because of his decision to rebel?). Or Arya Stark, for that matter?

Unrepentant child murderers are a dime a dozen in the series. Theon shows a bit of conscience, and everyone jumps all over him.

Shenanigans. Concocting a plan to murder two children to cover up one's own stupidity is not the same as unintended war casualties. By that logic, basically any head of state anywhere that ever fought a war is the moral equivalent of a child murderer.

[INCBlackbird]

2 minutes ago, OwloftheRainwood said:

It's somewhat disturbing how you brush off child murder with basically an "everybody does it" argument. Sure, other characters kill children, and they aren't my heroes. I'm not sure I even have "heroes" in ASOIF, the story is very nuanced. I never said Theon "owed the Starks anything". He didn't, but that doesn't make his actions any less foolish.

 

Well, we are talking about a world in which this stuff is normal though. It's not about everybody does it, it's about everybody does it because it's part of life. Especially since the story is mostly focussed on the nobility, they have the power of life and death and thus are responsible for a lot of death. This is what happens when there is war. therefor I think it's unfair to call him a child murderer as if he did that stuff in our world. Theon was a 20 year old with severe psychological issues who was given the responsibility of leading a small army (or well... not even sure if you can call it an army but you know what I mean) while never even having had control over his own life and suddenly he has to make decisions for others, couple that with his desparation to be loved and things were bound to go wrong. it's not like he rubbed his hands together and was all like "muhahah, I'll kill two children". He felt like he had no choice.
 

8 minutes ago, OwloftheRainwood said:

Yes, I agree that Theon had a difficult choice, which he calculated, acted, and failed epically. He went with the Greyjoys (who you admit were a bad family that mistreated Theon) who probably would never trust him anyway and betrayed his only friend and childhood companion. Bad move. 

 

Theon's father was bad, their culture is bad for Westeros, but there was also Theon's mother, his sister, Dagmar. A lot of people seem to think that the only person who ever loved Theon was Robb, but he was  not, Theon had friends on the Iron Islands as well, there's more people there besides his father. Theon's brothers were the ones who mistreated him and they were already dead. But even if all of that wasn't the case, even if they all hated him, you always have to pick your family in Westeros, or no one will respect you.
 

11 minutes ago, OwloftheRainwood said:

No, this was a tactical victory if anything. Not strategic: he was much too far from resupply and reinforcements and did not have the men to hold Winterfell, especially with a hostile population. Usually, tactics refer short term, strategy is long term.
 

good tactics then, my bad, I did not know the difference between strategy and tactics.
 

12 minutes ago, OwloftheRainwood said:

Basically you're saying only sociopaths are evil. From my perspective, if you do evil things, you are evil regardless of how you feel about it. While it doesn't erase child murder, characters can change and grow so it's not "black and white". That's why I appreciate Theon's character development, many high and very low points for him. For some reason I have a nagging suspicion he will somehow survive Stannis and the Northmen.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. And like I have said before, I disagree with that and I do think it's a black and white view. Like I pointed out before we have a court system for a reason, it's important to look at why a person did something bad, how did they get to that point, how do they feel about it. There's a thing called mitigating circemstances for a reason, because it's often not that simple. People will judge those who went to prison harshly, treat them as subhumans even, but what they don't realise is that if they grew up under the same circemstances, they'd probably be the ones who went to prison. they shouldn't be judging... they could maybe just try to understand how that person got to the point where they did whatever it is that they did. In most cases there's a very good and understandable reason for it. as there is in Theon's case.