Opinions on Theon

[Protagoras]

Theon is...unlucky.

He is insecure, a bit of a douche and has lost touch with his ironborn culture and tries to compensate to fit in - which backfires horribly. He was caught between a rock and a hard place and had to choose between family and friendship. He choose family, which is the correct choice in Westeros. Yet this was not an easy choice for Theon and his struggles are noticable in the text. 

It is also worth to point out that Theon was a HOSTAGE. It doesn´t matter if Starks did their job well with training, education and some friendship (honestly, isn´t this how these hostage/wardships SHOULD work?) So he didn´t betray the Starks - betrayal requirers some kind of bond, trust and loyalty which Theon didn´t have, apart maybe for his personal friendship with Robb (That is - he betrayed Robb as a person, as a friend - but he never betrayed house Stark).

Then, after performing the glorious feat of taking Winterfell he drops the ball completely and instead of doing as Asha suggested (That is: plunder the place and bring the boys to the Iron Islands) tries to rule as a prince himself (most likely a combination of a inferiority complex, a will to prove himself to his father and his internal disappoinment that he is not a Stark). If he HAD done as Asha said it could have, possibly by itself force Robb to the negotiation-table and permanently give the Ironborn a large piece of former northern land on the western coast. He could have been a hero to his people. 

However, this was not to last. Things get worse - the boys escape and not only do he execute people (some other boys, completely innocent) but also have the nerve to execute Farlen for deaths he did knew Farlen was innocent of - again to cover for himself. He fail to understand when the game is over and suffers horribly from it. 

In short - I never hated Theon. I agree with most of his choices and while he certainly deserved punishment, he didn´t deserve Ramsey, but rather a quick death (or the Wall). Theon also have the benefit that he is interesting, his chapters are one of the best, if not THE best, written and that his arc asks questions and forces him between real, hard choices. 

[Anirbas]

@sweetsunray No, you misunderstood me again. It's probably my fault, I'm sorry, I try to be clear this time.

I have to do a little premise: usually I think that it's costraining to evaluate characters according to a moral judgment instead of the complexity and depth of their characterization. Of course this is my approach with fiction, I never expect others do the same.
What I meant with understanding a character is not tied by any means to sympathy or forgiveness, but getting the original intent of the author. For example, GRRM didn't intend to write an evil character with Theon but a deep flawed and morally grey with his motives and then left to the reader's discretion to feel sympathy or not for him.   Another example: He wrote Jon like a classic hero/ good person (it's an oversimplification of course), I, the reader, (try to) understand the type of character GRRM wanted to express with him, and yet I could still find him uninteresting and/or  feel no sympathy for him, it doesn't matter. But saying that Jon is evil is bullshit because those aren't GRRM's original intentions.

Now I want to repeat for the umpteenth (but hopefully the last) time: it's ok to not feel sympathy for Theon. I am not here in order to beg for sympathy for him.  Understanding a character doesn't equal excusing him/her,  everybody agrees on that. Then why do you think that I want so desperately that you forgive him for his wroingdoings, when in every post I wrote I stated exactly the contrary?  Probably we agree on more things  than we think!

As for Jon, you're right I admit my complete and utter ignorance, but I read his chapter only once in two years because he and his povs bore me to death. But I have to correct you about Theon (with the hope that you don't misundertand this correction for an attempt to excuse Theon's behaviour; I said it in advance, it's not a justification, I am not excusing his actions, I merely reports what actually happens in the books)
You're completely right with Asha, he's well advised by his sister and he stubbornly refuses, i have nothing to add. But with Luwin it's not true as you said. It's false that Theon doesn't deliberately listen to Luwin's counsel. Theon doesn't want to harm Bran and Rickon, he knows that they are more useful alive as hostages. Theon's problem is exactly that at the end of the day they haven't found the little Starks. Theon accepts Ramsay's hint because Bran and Rickon are nowhere to be found and he thinks that he can't come back to the castle empty-handed. It's a dead end for him. He knows that killing hostages is not useful, but admitting that he didn't find the little Starks(a baby and a cripple) he will completely lose the respect of his men, and he will be utterly humiliated - and we know how much he fears humiliation - so the only one solution he sees is following Ramsay's plan. This is his path of thinking, he wouldn't have killed the miller's boys if he had found Bran and Rickon, it's pretty obvious, he's not that stupid.

Those are the quotes:
 

Quote

“Thus far hunting seems indistinguishable from riding through the woods, my lord.”
Theon smiled. “There are similarities. But with hunting, there’s blood at the end.”
“Must it be so? This flight was great folly, but will you not be merciful? These are your foster brothers we seek.”
“No Stark but Robb was ever brotherly toward me, but Bran and Rickon have more value to me living than dead.”

Mercy, thought Theon as Luwin dropped back. There’s a bloody trap. Too much and they call you weak, too little and you’re monstrous. Yet the maester had given him good counsel, he knew. His father thought only in terms of conquest, but what good was it to take a kingdom if you could not hold it? Force and fear could carry you only so far.

When the woods began to darken, Theon Greyjoy knew he was beaten. Either the crannogmen did know the magic of the children of the forest, or else Osha had deceived them with some wildling trick. He made them press on through the dusk, but when the last light faded Joseth finally worked up the courage to say, “This is fruitless, my lord. We will lame a horse, break a leg.”
“Joseth has the right of it,” said Maester Luwin. “Groping through the woods by torchlight will avail us nothing.”
Theon could taste bile at the back of his throat, and his stomach was a nest of snakes twining and snapping at each other. If he crept back to Winterfell empty-handed, he might as well dress in motley henceforth and wear a pointed hat; the whole north would know him for a fool. And when my father hears, and Asha...

“Prince Theon,” Maester Luwin entreated, “you will remember your promise? Mercy, you said.”
“Mercy was for this morning,” said Theon. It is better to be feared than laughed at. “Before they made me angry.”

I hope this time I've been understandable

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Anirbas said:

But with Luwin it's not true as you said. It's false that Theon doesn't deliberately listen to Luwin's counsel. Theon doesn't want to harm Bran and Rickon, he knows that they are more useful alive as hostages. Theon's problem is exactly that at the end of the day they haven't found the little Starks. Theon accepts Ramsay's hint because Bran and Rickon are nowhere to be found and he thinks that he can't come back to the castle empty-handed. It's a dead end for him. He knows that killing hostages is not useful, but admitting that he didn't find the little Starks(a baby and a cripple) he will completely lose the respect of his men, and he will be utterly humiliated - and we know how much he fears humiliation - so the only one solution he sees is following Ramsay's plan. This is his path of thinking, he wouldn't have killed the miller's boys if he had found Bran and Rickon, it's pretty obvious, he's not that stupid.

Luwin counsels him again on not harming the boys  after Theon already ordered them away. Strategically it was better to lose face than to make boys look like being dead Rickon and Bran, because not only did it make him reveal he had no high noble hostages anymore, but already the murderer of them. He didn't even need to make such a ruckus about it. He could have pretended to keep them somewhere else, sent them to Deepwood.

Yes, we know that Theon would not have killed the miller's boys if he did not think saving face is more important than someone else's life, and if feared losing face. That's not just grey, that's anthracite thinking.

Anirbas... I rarely if ever engage into discussions like these. They are indeed of little interest to me. But I can still post my opinion of a character nevertheless once in a while. My literary analysis is on conceptual and symbolical level: and in that sense Theon breaks a taboo when he talks of bear-baiting durig the search for Rickon and Bran after noticing a bear mark on a tree. In folklore bears are men with pelts and able to understand human speech. Telling them you want to hunt, bait and kill them is not a bright idea, and invites the aggerssive and vindictive nature of a bear to turn on you. Ramsay is symbolically a corrupted revenge bear (some characters in the books enact bear-revenges, such as Gregor torturing and killing Vargo Hoat). These usually are the corrupted-by-anger characters. Won't get into the quote evidence for all of that yet, but it would be the bear essay I've got ligned up for publishing after the one I'm working on now. But a flayed man looks like a skinned bear, and thus you can't be sure whether a flayed man is a man or a bear-man. Other than that, I would predict that Theon's identity is permanently broken. I think that Reek will reappear, and thus that Theon suffers from "multiple personality disorder" (a la Gollem-Smeagol).

[INCBlackbird]

47 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Luwin counsels him again on not harming the boys  after Theon already ordered them away. Strategically it was better to lose face than to make boys look like being dead Rickon and Bran, because not only did it make him reveal he had no high noble hostages anymore, but already the murderer of them. He didn't even need to make such a ruckus about it. He could have pretended to keep them somewhere else, sent them to Deepwood.

Anirbas... I rarely if ever engage into discussions like these. They are indeed of little interest to me. But I can still post my opinion of a character nevertheless once in a while. My literary analysis is on conceptual and symbolical level: and in that sense Theon breaks a taboo when he talks of bear-baiting durig the search for Rickon and Bran after noticing a bear mark on a tree. In folklore bears are men with pelts and able to understand human speech. Telling them you want to hunt, bait and kill them is not a bright idea, and invites the aggerssive and vindictive nature of a bear to turn on you. Ramsay is symbolically a corrupted revenge bear (some characters in the books enact bear-revenges, such as Gregor torturing and killing Vargo Hoat). These usually are the corrupted-by-anger characters. Won't get into the quote evidence for all of that yet, but it would be the bear essay I've got ligned up for publishing after the one I'm working on now. But a flayed man looks like a skinned bear, and thus you can't be sure whether a flayed man is a man or a bear-man. Other than that, I would predict that Theon's identity is permanently broken. I think that Reek will reappear, and thus that Theon suffers from "multiple personality disorder" (a la Gollem-Smeagol).

When Theon sends Luwin away he's already made the decision to go through with the plan to pretend the boys are Bran and Rickon and in order to do so he has to kill them. He can't bring them to Winterfell and expect people to magically forget how their lords look like at all. And yes, strategically it might have been better, but again, do you think Theon is capable of looking at the situation logically when he's the one in it. You have an outside perspective as someone who isn't involved, Theon doesn't.

I must say that I remember you engaging into discussions like this an awfull lot of times. In fact, I believe we argued in every Theon thread I ever made. Where does Theon say he wants to hunt bears? doesn't he say that the only thing the dogs are good for is hunting bears? that's not saying that "he" wants to hunt bears? he also says that he wants a bear or something along those lines. Also, what does Ramsay have to do with a bear? he's a psychopath, so is Gregor. I also don't think Ramsay was corrupted by anger, I think he was corrupted by lacking empathy. "a flayed man looks like a skinned bear" well... they are both flayed... I think that Reek will always be there, but that doesn't mean Theon has multiple personaltiy disorder, what do you base that on?

[INCBlackbird]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Yes, we know that Theon would not have killed the miller's boys if he did not think saving face is more important than someone else's life, and if feared losing face. That's not just grey, that's anthracite thinking.

Or you know... what happens when someone grew up getting bullied, and lives in the middle ages as a part of a highborn family.

[Dofs]

14 hours ago, INCBlackbird said:

Or you know... what happens when someone grew up getting bullied, and lives in the middle ages as a part of a highborn family.

A rough backstory doesn't really change the fact that at the point of CoK Theon was a terrible human being. Though I would say his backstory was not that rough at all to justify his murder of children for such petty reasons.

[INCBlackbird]

1 hour ago, Dofs said:

A rough backstory doesn't really change the fact that at the point of CoK Theon was a terrible human being. Though I would say his backstory was not that rough at all to justify his murder of children for such petty reasons.

Actually if you look at Theon's mind,which we are easily capable off since he's a pov, he shows himself not to be a horrible person. That's the whole point of his character, to show that even if people are capable off horrible things that doesn't immediatly make them a horrible person in general, anyone can be corrupted if they end up in the right circemstances with the right background. Also how exactly was Theon's past not rough? have you read anything on what kind of effect bullying has on a person? or growing up without parental love? or growing up with a death thread hanging over your head? or growing up being prejudiced by the majority of the people arround you?

[The Wolves]

8 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

Actually if you look at Theon's mind,which we are easily capable off since he's a pov, he shows himself not to be a horrible person. That's the whole point of his character, to show that even if people are capable off horrible things that doesn't immediatly make them a horrible person in general, anyone can be corrupted if they end up in the right circemstances with the right background. Also how exactly was Theon's past not rough? have you read anything on what kind of effect bullying has on a person? or growing up without parental love? or growing up with a death thread hanging over your head? or growing up being prejudiced by the majority of the people arround you?

How did Theon grow up around prejudiced people? 

[INCBlackbird]

2 minutes ago, The Wolves said:

How did Theon grow up around prejudiced people? 

He lived in Winterfell for half his life, he was a Greyjoy, the enemies of the Stark. Some people in Winterfell were certainly biased against him for his heritage, that's only normal in this type of world. Not to mention that according to Luwin Ned tried to "gentle" Theon because he was a Greyjoy, which makes no sense because we know from Asha that Theon was a shy, meek child. So even Ned was prejudiced to a certain extent.

[Joy Hill]

I view Theon as a dark shade of grey at this point, but I haven't made up my mind about him. It'll depend on what he'll do in Winds and beyond after all that's happened to him (well, if he doesn't immediately die in the first Winds chapters).

One thing's certain : Theon, along with Sandor Clegane, is one of the ASOIAF characters who would benefit the most from therapy.

 

 

[Byfort of Corfe]

On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2016 at 0:07 PM, Winter's Cold said:

Theon doesn't murder Bran and Rickon because they are far more useful as hostages. No Northern lord is going to storm Winterfell as that would endanger their lives. This can no longer work once they successfully escape.

And your source for this is?

[Winter's Cold]

1 hour ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

And your source for this is?

Both Little Walder and Asha Greyjoy refer to Bran and Rickon as hostages. Theon himself says that Bran and Rickon are more useful to him alive than dead.

Theon.

Quote

“No Stark but Robb was ever brotherly toward me, but Bran and Rickon have more value to me living than dead.”

Little Walder.

Quote

Little Walder told Bran. “You‟re no prince now, just a hostage.”

Asha.

Quote

“You might have thought of that before you took it. Oh, it was cleverly done, I‟ll grant you. If only you‟d had the good sense to raze the castle and carry the two little princelings back to Pyke as hostages, you might have won the war in a stroke.”

Bran and Rickon could also be used to prevent a Northern Lord from storming Winterfell the same way Beth Cassel was used to prevent Rodrik Cassel from storming Winterfell. 

Quote

“If this host is still in arms before my gate when the sun sets, Beth will hang,” said Theon.

 

I'll wait for you to provide your source for this statement now. 

On 9/19/2016 at 0:16 PM, Byfort of Corfe said:

 No way Sansa goes before the final book either, IIRC GRRM has stated that the end of her story line will be "bittersweet", implying she survives to the end.

 When you make a statement or an argument you need to be ready to provide the evidence for it especially when it's something that you claim GRRM said.

[Voice]

On 9/12/2016 at 1:24 AM, INCBlackbird said:

Yeah there's definitly been a thread like this in the past, but it's been a while I think. And I'm curious if the opinions have changed at this point. So yeah, shoot

 

He was Ned's squire.

[INCBlackbird]

On 21-9-2016 at 4:35 AM, Voice said:

 

He was Ned's squire.

oh this was an interesting. though I don't fully agree. I think some of the quotes you used simply don't apply to Theon. like the one about Jon. asoiaf does have the theme of history repeating itself I think, i'd like to hear more about who you think prayed the the hearttree for transformation?

[Dofs]

On 19/09/2016 at 6:33 PM, INCBlackbird said:

Actually if you look at Theon's mind,which we are easily capable off since he's a pov, he shows himself not to be a horrible person. That's the whole point of his character, to show that even if people are capable off horrible things that doesn't immediatly make them a horrible person in general, anyone can be corrupted if they end up in the right circemstances with the right background. 

Well, this is completely subjective because to me his POV did indeed show that he is a horrible person. The vast majority of not only his actions but also thoughts and opinions were repulsive to me. Starting from approximately a middle of his CoK POVs never did I doubt that I was reading a PoV of an evil person, kinda like Cersei's PoVs in FfC. 

On 19/09/2016 at 6:33 PM, INCBlackbird said:

Also how exactly was Theon's past not rough? have you read anything on what kind of effect bullying has on a person? or growing up without parental love? or growing up with a death thread hanging over your head? or growing up being prejudiced by the majority of the people arround you?

I've said 'not that rough' and considering how many characters had a far rougher background who grew up fine still, relative to them Theon's life was alright. Before Greyjoy rebellion he lived home, with his parents and there is no indication that his parents were any bad. After the rebellion he was a hostage but still lived a proper rich life with a freedom to do in the North whatever his social status allowed him to do (which is a lot). 

[INCBlackbird]

4 minutes ago, Dofs said:

Well, this is completely subjective because to me his POV did indeed show that he is a horrible person. The vast majority of not only his actions but also thoughts and opinions were repulsive to me. Starting from approximately a middle of his CoK POVs never did I doubt that I was reading a PoV of an evil person, kinda like Cersei's PoVs in FfC.

Then I have to go back to saying that I don't think you understand Theon. And please don't take that as an insult, I don't understand all characters either it's a matter of how much time you spent on thnking about them in my opinion. Theon's inner thoughts are often not so pleasant to read, he does a lot of thinking about how great he is and how bad others are but those are the realistic thoughts or someone with compensatory narcissistic personality disorder. As in, Theon has an outragiously low self esteem that he tries to overcompensate for. That's one thing, then there's all the times he goes "I had no choice" when he's done something bad. Which is what happens when someone feels guilty and they want to get rid of the feeling cause it hurts but they become increasingly angry and desparate because that horrible feeling won't go away. read anything about shame and/or guilt and you'll see. Then there's all  the times where he points out that he feels sick or that he can't stomach doing something, which happens at least twice that I can think off. All of that shows that Theon is not a bad person, he's just damaged and in over his head. Cersei has a lot of things in common with Theon, when I read her I got heavy Theon vibes, however the main difference is that she lacks empathy and thus never feels guilty. which in my eyes makes her a horrible person. The best example is when she is having qyburn torture the blue bard and she feels sorry for herself that she has to witness something so ugly, yet never even spares him a thought. To Cersei, other people are nothing but tools for her to use to her adventage.
 

14 minutes ago, Dofs said:

I've said 'not that rough' and considering how many characters had a far rougher background who grew up fine still, relative to them Theon's life was alright. Before Greyjoy rebellion he lived home, with his parents and there is no indication that his parents were any bad. After the rebellion he was a hostage but still lived a proper rich life with a freedom to do in the North whatever his social status allowed him to do (which is a lot). 

First of all, I think the dicussion of who had it worse is unproductive, there's certainly characters who had it worse and characters who had it less bad than Theon but it's a disservice to all characters involved to start comparing how much they suffered in order to determine wether or not they suffered enough to be allowed to make the mistakes they did. There's always someone who has it worse, that doesn't make your pain invalid.

When he was still living with the Greyjoys, Theon got bullied and beaten up by his brothers, Asha describes him as shy and meek (nothing like the Theon in AGOT) and that he lived in awe and fear of his brothers, there is no indictation that Balon took part in the bullying but I have no doubt that he didn't try to stop it either, his mother appeared to love him unconditionally though. I don't know if you know what it's like to be bullied, but I do and let me tell you it leaves serious scars. That's not the worst part though, The hostage situation was worse. he may have lived a rich life but that isn't everything, in fact it means very little. Money doesn't make you happy, love does. that may sound cliché but it's the truth. it's been proven time and time again that children need parental love in order to grow up into emotionally stable people. Theon didn't have that. And that's not even mentioning the environment he grew up in, how he felt like an outsider and worst of all the fact that he had to grow up with a death sentence over his head. I've brought this up a few times on this forum but I have something called death anxiety, which means that I am pretty much constantly worried about dying, and let me tell you that is difficult. And the thing is that I am aware that my fear is irrational, Theon's fear wasn't. The Theon we meet in AGOT is severely damaged, he's got an identity crisis, has a very low self esteem, suffers from a ton of unhelpful thinking patterns and uses all kinds of defense mechanisms all the time. That stuff doesn't come out of nowhere, it comes from having a rough childhood.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

Easily one of the best written arcs of the series, a classic redemption arc done extremely well.

He still has a long way to go in the series, so I'm looking forward to see how he develops from here on.

[OwloftheRainwood]

On 9/19/2016 at 0:37 PM, Joy Hill said:

I view Theon as a dark shade of grey at this point, but I haven't made up my mind about him. It'll depend on what he'll do in Winds and beyond after all that's happened to him (well, if he doesn't immediately die in the first Winds chapters).

One thing's certain : Theon, along with Sandor Clegane, is one of the ASOIAF characters who would benefit the most from therapy.

 

 

Yes. Theon is a failed turncloak, killed two kids to cover up his own incompetence. Sure, he has sympathetic elements, but for me murdering children to save face is a bridge too far, no matter who your parents were or how you grew up. It doesn't mean he's unsympathetic or the worst of characters on level of Ramsay, the Mountain or Euron. Nor does it mean he is not an interesting character. Unless you're a hardcore Theon apologist, it's very difficult to smooth over his epic character flaws: arrogance, incompetence and frankly he's just not that bright.

[The Arthur Smith]

Theon is absolutely one of my favorite characters and probably top the best. I love that his arc is very different from most of the other characters. Unlike the typical likable heroes that often panders to the demographic's best interest such as Jon, Arya, and Dany, Theon is an anti-hero to the core. Theon was an absolute dick as he doesn't possess any likable traits. He's arrogant, treats women like crap, betrayed the Starks, and kills the two boys. But GRMM did a great job at exploring Theon's mindset in Clash. He is a asshole who's suffering an identity crisis. He made actions based on his struggle to fit in which side he truly thinks he belongs. It then cost him to become friendless and lonely with all the decisions he made. And by Dance, Theon has become a tragic character. Regardless of which side Theon turned to, he will earn no love from his other family and at the end, Theon lost both his identity and been demoted to a insignificant person known as Reek who isn't warrant to be remember. 

Although Theon may be an asshole, but GRMM shows that he's lesser in comparison to the likes of Ramsay and Euron. Theon does have some sense of morality despite in a persona as Reek. He was willing to help Jeyne escape even though he knew she's a woman and a commoner. He also told Jeyne not to reveal herself for her safety, showing that cares for her. Theon redeemed himself and managed to break his identity as Reek. He's neither a Stark nor a Greyjoy - just Theon Greyjoy. 

Although Theon is my favorite character, i can agreed with some of the people that Theon still hasn't atone entirely for what he did. He killed the two boys and Theon didn't acknowledge that hideous act even after he became Reek. He only stated that they are just "boys" and nothing relevant. They say that going through a trauma doesn't automatically makes you sympathetic or a better person and this would be the case. But Theon atoned with other areas. Theon may be asshole, but he i like him cause he's a flaw character. Being the most heavily flaw POV character is what distinguish him from other main characters and it's only about a boy suffering from an identity crisis.

[The Sleeper]

Theon was a dick before Ramsay and he is a pitiful pathetic dick afterwards. It's not like he acted out of loyalty to any Ironborn either, he felt as much resentment to his family as he did to the Starks and while at Winterfel he had men under his command murdered to cover up his failure. The only reason he is not classed with the monsters in the series is that he was manipulated into most of his actions. Being treacherous and monstrous because of lack of spine or conviction does not make an excuse. He may have genuine grievances about how his life turned out, but he has never done anything to garner any sympathy either.