Opinions on Theon

[INCBlackbird]

1 hour ago, shizett said:

I'll try to answer part by part, maybe that would make my arguments clearer.

And I will do the same.
 

1 hour ago, shizett said:

I think I understand your point about how conflicted Theon's emotions and position was, and I do agree that is was very unpleasant. What I do disagree with though, is calling Ned (or Starks) the kidnaper or Theon the kidnapee. The reason I brought up the foster system was to be able to separate the two entities. Ned did not decide on Theon's fate, he was appointed by Robert to host Theon. From that moment on they tried to make the most of an ugly situation, and it was on both sides. That is why I think Theon does owe the Starks for all the efforts they put into his upbringing in ensuring a peaceful and fruitful life. They were not his goalie, they were his foster family.

You might disagree with calling Ned the kidnapper and it is true that it's not exactly the same, because that's a modern term and something that happens outside the law, but it's the best comparison I could come up with. And I disagree with calling the starks his foster family, once again I have to point out that foster kids don't have a death sentence hanging over their head, they are not prisoners either and the people who take them in do it specifically to benefit them. Ned didn't mean Theon any harm but he also didn't take him home because he wanted to help Theon. Theon was a political tool and Ned was the one who had to keep him close.
 

1 hour ago, shizett said:

He was not locked up, where did you get that notion from? He wasn't allowed to visit his family, but in all fairness his father started a war he had no chance of winning and had all of Theon's brothers killed. He goes hunting, visits brothels, can go anywhere he wants just as all the other kids, he just cannot go back to him homeland. That is cruel ofcourse, but not in the same way that "locked up" suggests.

I didn't say Theon was locked up, that was from my kidnapper/kidnapee example to illustrate that even if a relationship is complicated and a lot of complicated emotions are involved, from an outsiders perspective it can still be easy to see who owes who what.

Theon was not locked up, but he was a prisoner, as you said yourself he was not allowed to visit his family.
 

1 hour ago, shizett said:

I do not agree that Ned never went beyond his duty, If Theon was no more than a hostage he could have been fed and educated separately from the rest of the family. He wasn't, he was treated the same as all the other boys with the knowledge that he wasn't one of them. He got the same food, the same education (that included their moral education by Ned personally) and was given a chance to make life long friends with people in WF. The fact that he made a very close friendship with Robb means that he wasn't "just" a hostage. Ned would not have let his heir befriend a hostage that he might have had to kill if he saw Theon as such. I specially disagree with you because I think this kind of mentality would  (and did inTheon's case) inhibit any closure on what happened. Ned (and all the other Starks) DID NOT do anything to Theon, he owed him no duty. Nonetheless, he did do everything in his (their) power to take care of him.

This is simply how highborn hostages are supposed to be treated. He's not a hostage in the modern world, he's a highborn hostage in a middle aged setting and in this system they were supposed to be treated exactly like Ned treated him no more no less. And indeed Ned didn't owe Theon anymore, he fullfilled his duty (as we know Ned is good at) and that's it. If you don't believe me about how  this is how highborn hostages were supposed to be treated watch this:

1 hour ago, shizett said:

As for this part, to be honest I find it unfair of you to expect everyone to enjoy his company, he is a very unpleasant person. Nobody owes him the pleasure of their company. He was given a chance to make a friend out of people and he did make a friend out of Robb. A lot of people are not equally friendly with all their siblings. Sansa seems to have been somewhat solitary in Stark household too, she did not share many things with her siblings, would you say that if she burned up WF, it wouldn't be a betrayal?

I don't expect them to enjoy his company all I'm pointing out is that they didn't. Which was my point, because they weren't friends or had any kind of relationship Theon didn't owe them anything (and neither did they owe Theon anything). It was a non-relationship.

1 hour ago, shizett said:

Well, Robb constantly calls Jon "Snow" too. Sansa call him "my half bastard brother Jon Snow", Cat calls him Ned's bastard. That is a feudal society, just because people always mention where exactly you stand does not mean they do not value you.

perhaps but there is a difference between how Robb talks to theon and how everyone else does. He often calls him Theon, while everyone else doesn't. It's subtle but it shows the difference in how close Theon was with Robb vs with everyone else.
 

1 hour ago, shizett said:

Again, I disagree with this. He was treated exactly as any other kid in that household. If Cat and Ned wanted to, they could have and would have separated him from all the other kids, including Robb. They owed him no hospitality, but offer it to him all the same. He played with the rest, ate with the rest, had the same kind of fun, went to all their parties, sat besides their fire. I really do not understand what you mean by being welcomed. This is being welcomed.

Please do remember that Theon's people did attack Northerners repeatedly, Ned's small folk, and killed them. Not once do we see someone bring it up to Theon's face, they always mention what HE did, never his people. I call that quite courteous.

Like I said, this is how highborn hostages are treated. Being welcomed would be helping Theon to deal with his emotional problems, talking to him, showing him love. They did not have to do that and I do not blame them for not doing that(especially cause Ned knew he might have to kill him so it's better not to get attached) but that would be welcoming him. There's also the fact that some people prejudiced Theon for being a Greyjoy (which is also normal in that type of world) So Theon certainly felt like an outsider. I would think that's clear from his chapters.

They did but how is that on Theon? He was a child? Do you really think it's fair to punish him for what his father did?
 

[INCBlackbird]

1 hour ago, Maxxine said:

By virtue of being a Stark ward I can agree that he doesn't owe the Starksanytging. However, by virtue of being Robb's he owes the Starks something. When you call someone your friend, & especially when you consider them a brother, its implicit that you won't screw over their family either. To me, you can't separate the two. If you agree he betrayed Robb, you can't say but he didn't betray the Starks espcially considering what he did. If I have a friend and I burn down that friend's  house where all of the family  lives, I don't get to say well I only betrayed my friend, I didn't do anything wrong in regard to family bc I didn't owe them anything. Had he never befriended Robb then I would probably agree with you but he did. 

I didn't say he didn't do anything wrong, I said he didn't betray them. If you burned down a strangers house you would have done something wrong as well but you didn't betray them. in this scenario, you specfically betrayed your friend.

[INCBlackbird]

56 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

He did, however, kill people. To me, it doesn't matter whether he "liked it" or not. He had a choice between murdering people and not murdering people and he freely and consciously chose to murder them. That makes someone a bad person.

You are free to have such a standard for calling someone a bad person, mine is different. Just make sure that if that is your standard you apply it to everyone who murdered someone in these books (Dany, Arya, Jaime, The Hound... and countless others) Do you think all of them are bad people?

the world of asoiaf is violent, most of the characters are killers, not because humanity in general contained more bad people than it does today, but because there wasn't as much welfare, the less welfare the more violence occurs and the more other people are violent the more normalised violence is that the higher the chances you will have to commit violence in order to survive.

58 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

There's always a choice. Just because it may not be a good choice, doesn't mean it isn't one.

Theon had to make a difficult choice and it's tragic that he  did but when it comes to chosing his family, he made the right choice. Just because we read it from the Stark's point of view (as in they have the most amount of point of views) doesn't mean that everyone has to give everything up to fight for them. Theon owed loyalty to his family even if his father was a asshole.
 

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

Besides, taking over Winterfell, installing himself as Prince and murdering the inhabitants is hardly choosing his own family over Robb. He could have aligned himself with his own family by following his father's directive, which was most definitely NOT to conquer Winterfell. At the same time, he would not have betrayed Robb and the Starks (it's their home, too) if he had just left Winterfell alone.

The Winterfell thing was a complete mess (because he was too attached to burn it down and take Bran and Rickon hostage and bring them back to Pyke) and that certainly wasnt the right thing to do. But it's not like he could go back to Robb, he'd already alligned himself with his family. I don't agree that if he hadn't taken Winterfell Robb (and the fandom) wouldn't have seen it as a betrayal. He was still fighting against him. The problem was that his father was set on fighting the Starks which meant that Theon had to chose one side or the other and he picked the right one, the only real choice really in a world like that, once he'd done that he might as well go all the way, problem is that that's not why he took Winterfell, he took it for emotional reasons which is what eventually gets him into that horrible mess.
 

1 hour ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

He owes people the common human decency of not murdering them and stealing their home.

Yeah he does, but so does Robb, so does Stannis, so does everyone else who took castles from someone else. Sadly, it's what happens during war time.

[INCBlackbird]

39 minutes ago, sifth said:

I'm just going to throw out that Robb was the head of house Stark when Theon betrayed him. When he betrayed Robb he betrayed house Stark by proxy. I'm sorry, but it really is that simple. Also Cat trusted Theon to lead Robb's army in his place and even trusted Theon to her secreted dagger meeting, Theon himself admitted that he use to have a friendly relationship with many of the people he killed at Winterfell. I'm sorry OP, but Robb was not the "ONLY" person to treat Theon kindly at Winterfell. Heck even Bran says a prayer to the old gods to look after him. Even Maester Luwin treated him kindly.

Theon betrayed Robb on a personal level because they were friends. He didn't owe house stark as a whole anything. And I would think that it's common courtesy to be friendly with one another, Robb was the only one who was his friend though. Also Maester Luwin is one of the people who prejudiced Theon without even knowing he was doing it because it was that normal to him. He was certainly kind but he also talked about how Ned tried to "gentle" Theon as if it's completely normal that he had to do that.

[sifth]

28 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

Theon betrayed Robb on a personal level because they were friends. He didn't owe house stark as a whole anything. And I would think that it's common courtesy to be friendly with one another, Robb was the only one who was his friend though. Also Maester Luwin is one of the people who prejudiced Theon without even knowing he was doing it because it was that normal to him. He was certainly kind but he also talked about how Ned tried to "gentle" Theon as if it's completely normal that he had to do that.

Well Theon does come from a family of mostly psychopaths, so I don't blame him. His mother and Asha are the only ones I'd label as decent people and Asha was retconned into one. The Asha of the second book is a very different character, than the one in the fourth. Balon, Vic and Euron are some of the worst people in the series and from what we heard Theon's brothers aren't much better. In fact most of the ironborn characters in general are 2 dimensional evil. I know there are a few good ones like Lord Blacktyde and The Reader, but any that believe in the "old way" and the "iron price" are just insane. No better than pirates and in some ways worse.

 

It's a shame Theon proved that he's just as rotten as his father and uncles when he betrayed his best friend, murdered a priest, killed those two little boys, mutilated their bodies, killed 3 of his own men, and then framed an executed a man he knew was innocent. The fact that you think we should feel sorry for such a monster is a joke in and of itself.

[INCBlackbird]

5 minutes ago, sifth said:

Well Theon does come from a family of mostly psychopaths, so I don't blame him. His mother and Asha are the only ones I'd label as decent people and Asha was retconned into one. The Asha of the second book is a very different character, than the one in the fourth. Balon, Vic and Euron are some of the worst people in the series and from what we heard Theon's brothers aren't much better. In fact most of the ironborn characters in general are 2 dimensional evil. I know there are a few good ones like Lord Blacktyde and The Reader, but any that believe in the "old way" and the "iron price" are just insane. No better than pirates and in some ways worse.

Yes, it's a very messed up culture, but that doesn't mean that everyone who comes from the culture is messed up. like you point out there are some that aren't. Yet Ned apparently immediatly prejudices Theon as being one of them just because he's ironborn, and it can't be because of how he acted considering that Asha described him as meek and shy, that's how she remembers him, not exactly the ironborn stereotype.
 

5 minutes ago, sifth said:

It's a shame Theon proved that he's just as rotten as his father and uncles when he betrayed his best friend, murdered a priest, killed those two little boys, mutilated their bodies, killed 3 of his own men, and then framed an executed a man he knew was innocent. The fact that you think we should feel sorry for such a monster is a joke in and of itself.

Then what exactly do you suggest that he should have done? say "fuck you" to his father, mother, sister, uncles, Dagmer.... and try to sail to Robb on a boat alone?

edit: btw, do you feel sorry for Arya? I certainly do, she killed innocent people as well...

[sifth]

35 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

Yes, it's a very messed up culture, but that doesn't mean that everyone who comes from the culture is messed up. like you point out there are some that aren't. Yet Ned apparently immediatly prejudices Theon as being one of them just because he's ironborn, and it can't be because of how he acted considering that Asha described him as meek and shy, that's how she remembers him, not exactly the ironborn stereotype.
 

Then what exactly do you suggest that he should have done? say "fuck you" to his father, mother, sister, uncles, Dagmer.... and try to sail to Robb on a boat alone?

edit: btw, do you feel sorry for Arya? I certainly do, she killed innocent people as well...

Maybe stay neutral, maybe go visit his mother, the guy had choices. He seemed to enjoy playing the role of Judas though by betraying his best friend.

[INCBlackbird]

Just now, sifth said:

Maybe stay neutral, maybe go visit his mother, the guy had choices. He seemed to enjoy playing the role of Judas though by betraying his best friend.

How exactly could he stay neutral? Also the text disproves that he enjoyed it.

[sifth]

3 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

How exactly could he stay neutral? Also the text disproves that he enjoyed it.

By not taking up arms against a man he loved as a brother, for starters.

I don't recall the text ever having Theon regret his actions. It's mostly just Theon trying to come up with excuses for what he's done. The most common excuse being, "I had no choice".

 

Also even Judas had regrets about what he did. He did kill himself after the fact.

[INCBlackbird]

1 minute ago, sifth said:

 

I don't recall the text ever having Theon regret his actions. It's mostly just Theon trying to come up with excuses for what he's done. The most common excuse being, "I had no choice".

what exactly do you think regret is? cause "I had no choice" is generally what people think when they feel guilty. But also there's the infamous line where Theon wishes he'd died with Robb... what exactly is that then? is that him enjoying how he betrayed his friend?

[sifth]

9 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

what exactly do you think regret is? cause "I had no choice" is generally what people think when they feel guilty. But also there's the infamous line where Theon wishes he'd died with Robb... what exactly is that then? is that him enjoying how he betrayed his friend?

That's after he becomes Reek. Only after Theon has lost everything does he finally start to show regret for what he did. I said as much in an earlier post.

[INCBlackbird]

4 minutes ago, sifth said:

That's after he becomes Reek. Only after Theon has lost everything does he finally start to show regret for what he did. I said as much in an earlier post.

First of all, so that's not Theon anymore? And second, you are wrong, you yourself said that he goes "I had no choice" over and over in his head, but apparently you don't know what guilt is then?

[Rippounet]

My opinion about Theon hasn't changed since last time you asked OP. Nothing can excuse the killing of children. I don't care how messed up one is, there are certain lines that should never be crossed. Theon showed that he was willing to not only betray Robb, but also to kill innocents if it could help him. The first isn't as bad as some might say, but the latter is clearly impossible to defend, even within the context of Westeros (and that's saying something).

1 hour ago, INCBlackbird said:

You are free to have such a standard for calling someone a bad person, mine is different. Just make sure that if that is your standard you apply it to everyone who murdered someone in these books (Dany, Arya, Jaime, The Hound... and countless others) Do you think all of them are bad people?

Most characters in ASOAIF are grey-ish. Dany has the makings of a tyrant, Arya of a psychopath (she's an assassin at the very least, which doesn't exactly make her a great person), Jaime nearly killed Bran, the Hound killed Micah (among others)... etc.

But this is part of the story. The fact that Dany might be as bad as her father is a plot point in itself. Arya's possible falling into darkness is as well (this is about the dangers of seeking revenge, just as Lady Stoneheart is). Both Jaime and the Hound are on a so-called "redemption ark"... etc.
The same goes for Theon. He did some truly terrible things and is still atoning for them.

Martin writes his stories with 21st century sensibility. The readers are expected to read them with 21st century sensibility as well. I don't see how one could understand the characters and the story without understanding when they clearly cross a line. Sorry to be blunt, but if Theon had done nothing wrong, he wouldn't have been tortured by Ramsay and lost his dick. The fact that Martin made him suffer so much was precisely because he had done some truly terrible things in the first place.

Trying to defend Theon isn't just ridiculous and futile... It also shows a poor understanding of the series imho. Sure, Theon isn't 100% evil... Almost no human is. And those who are (like Ramsay or the Mountain) could be said to have been born that way (or become that way because of their childhood). So what? Theon had free will. He was educated enough to know what was right and what was wrong. He CHOSE to do wrong. Thus he pays for it.  It's simple, really, and trying to find excuses for a fictional character's wrongs is a weird pastime. Are you a lawyer, perhaps, trying to see how to convince a jury to forgive almost anything?

[sifth]

17 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

First of all, so that's not Theon anymore? And second, you are wrong, you yourself said that he goes "I had no choice" over and over in his head, but apparently you don't know what guilt is then?

You do know Theon is hardly even sane anymore when he becomes Reek? I know what an excuse is and Theon is filled with them, to the point where it just becomes silly.

[INCBlackbird]

3 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

My opinion about Theon hasn't changed since last time you asked OP. Nothing can excuse the killing of children. I don't care how messed up one is, there are certain lines that should never be crossed. Theon showed that he was willing to not only betray Robb, but also to kill innocents if it could help him. The first isn't as bad as some might say, but the latter is clearly impossible to defend, even within the context of Westeros (and that's saying something).

That is your opinion, it's not mine, I have more compassion than that. Humans are very complex, and I think it's important to acknowledge that complexity. The entire point of asoiaf (or at least one of them) is to show how complex we are yet a lot of fans seem to want to reduce the characters to one dimensional simplisitic characters.
 

9 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Most characters in ASOAIF are grey-ish. Dany has the makings of a tyrant, Arya of a psychopath (she's an assassin at the very least, which doesn't exactly make her a great person), Jaime nearly killed Bran, the Hound killed Micah (among others)... etc.

exactly, most characters are Grey, don't you wonder why that is? it's because they live in a violent world where violence is the norm. about Dany idk, I think that from a certain perspective she already is a tyrant, but from another perspective she means well so when reading her we know that she doesn't want to be one she's just learning and making mistakes. About Arya, she's not a psychopath, a psychopath is someone who doesn't have empathy, Arya has plenty of empathy, she's just been traumatised.
 

12 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

But this is part of the story. The fact that Dany might be as bad as her father is a plot point in itself. Arya's possible falling into darkness is as well (this is about the dangers of seeking revenge, just as Lady Stoneheart is). Both Jaime and the Hound are on a so-called "redemption ark"... etc.
The same goes for Theon. He did some truly terrible things and is still atoning for them.

Yep, that's another message of asoiaf that it's anti-revenge (just like it's anti-war) it basically shows what these things can do to people. And Theon is a part of that as well, it shows what the messed up hostage system can do to a person.
Also I don't think Jaime and Theon are on a redemption arc (especially jaime, Theon to a certain extend perhaps but it's secondary to his main arc) but that's an entirely different discussion.
 

18 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Martin writes his stories with 21st century sensibility. The readers are expected to read them with 21st century sensibility as well. I don't see how one could understand the characters and the story without understanding when they clearly cross a line. Sorry to be blunt, but if Theon had done nothing wrong, he wouldn't have been tortured by Ramsay and lost his dick. The fact that Martin made him suffer so much was precisely because he had done some truly terrible things in the first place.

yes but if the readers use the precious thing they have been given (if everything went well), called empathy they can put themselves in the shoes of the characters and understand their situation from their point of view with the context of the world they live in. that's the entire point of empathy. Also I didn't say he didn't do anything wrong. And also, does that mean that Pia did some horrible thing in her past? otherwise Martin wouldn't have let her get raped/tortured for a year right? Or could it perhaps be that like in the real world bad things can happen to everyone? I also have to add that Ramsay torturing Theon is directly linked to his identity crisis, the thing that links his clash arc to his dance arc, the constant in Theon's story.
 

24 minutes ago, Rippounet said:

Trying to defend Theon isn't just ridiculous and futile... It also shows a poor understanding of the series imho. Sure, Theon isn't 100% evil... Almost no human is. And those who are (like Ramsay or the Mountain) could be said to have been born that way (or become that way because of their childhood). So what? Theon had free will. He was educated enough to know what was right and what was wrong. He CHOSE to do wrong. Thus he pays for it.  It's simple, really, and trying to find excuses for a fictional character's wrongs is a weird pastime. Are you a lawyer, perhaps, trying to see how to convince a jury to forgive almost anything?

And I think that pretending like Theon is all bad shows poor understanding of the series. His character is one of the most complex characters out there why would anyone reducing him to a one dimensional villain show a good understanding of the series? It is not simple at all that is the point I'm trying to make, which is actually why i'm reading this series, because it's not simple. if you want to read simple stories why not read one of the million where the characters aren't complex and realistic? And no I am not a lawyer, i'm a film editor who also happens to be interested in psychology and is amazed at the lack of understanding of it displayed on this forum.


 

 

[INCBlackbird]

25 minutes ago, sifth said:

You do know Theon is hardly even sane anymore when he becomes Reek?

No I didn't know that... he sounds pretty sane to me, certainly more sane than he was in acok where he got so paranoid he couldn't distinguish the lies he told himself from the truth.
in adwd he's traumatised. i've been traumatised, my best friend has been traumatised, does that make us insane?
 

27 minutes ago, sifth said:

 I know what an excuse is and Theon is filled with them, to the point where it just becomes silly.

internally excusing yourself means you feel guilty. if you don't feel guilty there's no reason to try to excuse yourself, this should be very simple, I don't understand why it's so hard a concept for you to graps. (also because I've explained it a gazillion times already, not to mentioned linked articles that explained it)

[Nevets]

@INCBlackbird, your defense of Theon reminds me of a line from a movie I once saw, where someone comments about the accused, "I believe every word he says, and I think he is guilty as hell, and deserves to spend the rest of his life in prison.".  That is the way I feel about Theon.  All the justifications, extenuations, mitigations, excuses, you have given are woefully insufficient to wash out the enormity of his crimes.  Hell, I have more respect for the explanations given for Jaime's and Sandor's crimes, and that's saying something!  His own justifications are woefully self-serving and horribly threadbare.  Avoiding ridicule?!?  Please.  If I am the judge in his case, I am giving him the maximum penalty. and if and when Stannis executes him, I will not shed a single tear.  

As far as being a hostage goes, the Starks treated him far better than his own family did or, I think, would have if he had stayed.  He got a first-rate education, and first-hand experience watching a top level Lord ruling his lands.  He also got to meet with many high-level and important people, and was sufficiently trusted Catelyn brought him into her councils regarding the dagger.  And he threw it all away.

For some reason I am reminded of a comment Jaime makes to Lord Bracken when he tells him to send a daughter to KL as a hostage.  "Serving the Queen Regent is an honor.  Remind her of that."  It's a bit snarky, but true.  Jaime himself has two squires who are hostages, and if they survive, they will have gotten invaluable experience.  Of course, if their fathers misbehave, they may well die, but  they don't seem particularly worried,, or resentful, over the situation.  Theon was afforded some great opportunities through his association with the Starks, and chose murder and betrayal instead.  I'm sorry, but all I see is a self-centered little shit whose feeble justifications and minimal good acts are insufficient to mitigate the bad ones.  I would categorize him as dark grey 

[King Ned Stark]

Theon is obviously not the worst guy in the series, and most likely did most of his heinous crimes out of his own insecurities.  When Robb admonishes him for shooting the wildling in the back Theon acts like a sullen boy, IIRC, and I disagree with Robb on that point.

However, these "redemption arcs" are getting a bit out of hand.  Saving Jeyne does not atone for murdering children, saving Brienne does not atone for the attempted murder of a child, claiming that everyone else is murderer so it's okay I killed the butcher's boy does not cut it.  If Theon, or Jaime for that matter, offered themselves up to Jon Snow for justice, then they have atoned for their crimes.  And I would be okay with whatever he chose, I could actually see myself forgiving Theon, perhaps both (I'm a big believer in forgiveness, mercy, clemency), but I'd actually forgive Theon before Jaime (being privy to the knowledge we readers are).

As Stannis said, a good deed does not wash out the bad.

If you kill a child, and then rescue a dozen from a burning school, you will still be tried for the murder.  As you should be.

What was Theon when he turned against the Stark's, 20 or 21, one could argue that Ned had just as hard of a life from birth to that age as Theon, and the guy is a paragon of virtue.

 

I think you're referring to A Few Good Men, kind of similar actually, because they're found not guilty of all counts except dishonorable conduct.  And Downey says they did nothing wrong, but Dawson finally understands, "Yeah we did, we were supposed to fight for people who couldn't fight for themselves, we were supposed to fight for Willie."  This could be applied to any numbers of knights in asoiaf.

[INCBlackbird]

15 minutes ago, Nevets said:

@INCBlackbird, you defense of Theon reminds me of a line from a movie I once saw, where someone comments about the accused, "I believe every word he says, and I think he is guilty as hell, and deserves to spend the rest of his life in prison.".  That is the way I feel about Theon.  All the justifications, extenuations, mitigations, excuses, you have given are woefully insufficient to wash out the enormity of his crimes.  Hell, I have more respect for the explanations given for Jaime's and Sandor's crimes, and that's saying something!  His own justifications are woefully self-serving and horribly threadbare.  Avoiding ridicule?!?  Please.  If I am the judge in his case, I am giving him the maximum penalty. and if and when Stannis executes him, I will not shed a single tear. 

I'd probably strongly disagree with the character who said that because I think that in general people have way too little empathy and don't understand why someone commited a certain crime. As in, they are unable to empathise. And most of all they are self-rightious as hell and think "i'd never do that" and if they think that they're very naive. when someone is not a psychopath, they generally have very good reasons to do what they did, otherwise they wouldn't have done it. Jaime and Sandor had their reasons as well, so did Arya, and pretty much everyone else in the story who isn't a psychopath. "avoiding ridicule?!? Please." I have explained this in detail so at this point I can't say anything but: empathy, do you have it?
 

15 minutes ago, Nevets said:

As far as being a hostage goes, the Starks treated him far better than his own family did or, I think, would have if he had stayed.  He got a first-rate education, and first-hand experience watching a top level Lord ruling his lands.  He also got to meet with many high-level and important people, and was sufficiently trusted Catelyn brought him into her councils regarding the dagger.  And he threw it all away.

Ned treated him exactly like a highborn hostage is supposed to be treated, no more no less. And oh yay he gets to meet important people, all that really means that he doesn't have to think about the fact that he might get killed any day, totally erases that, obviously.
 

15 minutes ago, Nevets said:

For some reason I am reminded of a comment Jaime makes to Lord Bracken when he tells him to send a daughter to KL as a hostage.  "Serving the Queen Regent is an honor.  Remind her of that."  It's a bit snarky, but true.  Jaime himself has two squires who are hostages, and if they survive, they will have gotten invaluable experience.  Of course, if their fathers misbehave, they may well die, but  they don't seem particularly worried,, or resentful, over the situation.  Theon was afforded some great opportunities through his association with the Starks, and chose murder and betrayal instead.  I'm sorry, but all I see is a self-centered little shit whose feeble justifications and minimal good acts are insufficient to mitigate the bad ones.  I would categorize him as dark grey 

Ok, lets try it this way... would you enjoy being a hostage under theat of death just because you get important experiences? I certainly wouldn't. thinking you can die any moment is absolutly horrible, I would think that something like that is obvious and doesn't have to be repeated over and over in order for people to understand, but apparently I was wrong and many people can't imagine what something would be like if it doesn't happen to them. and thus my negativity about humanity increases, thank you.

[INCBlackbird]

10 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

However, these "redemption arcs" are getting a bit out of hand.  Saving Jeyne does not atone for murdering children, saving Brienne does not atone for the attempted murder of a child, claiming that everyone else is murderer so it's okay I killed the butcher's boy does not cut it.  If Theon, or Jaime for that matter, offered themselves up to Jon Snow for justice, then they have atoned for their crimes.  And I would be okay with whatever he chose, I could actually see myself forgiving Theon, perhaps both (I'm a big believer in forgiveness, mercy, clemency), but I'd actually forgive Theon before Jaime (being privy to the knowledge we readers are).

As Stannis said, a good deed does not wash out the bad.

If you kill a child, and then rescue a dozen from a burning school, you will still be tried for the murder.  As you should be.

What was Theon when he turned against the Stark's, 20 or 21, one could argue that Ned had just as hard of a life from birth to that age as Theon, and the guy is a paragon of virtue.

I know this is not a reply to me but I think this is very important and it's basically why I don't really believe in identity arcs. Jaime certainly doesn't have one. A lot of people claim that Jaime's changed, I don't think he's changed, what's changed is that we got his pov and are shown that he's not as bad as we think he is (in fact I don't think he's bad at all but I know people would disagree with that). With Theon I can see why people think it's a redepmtion arc, but I think it's an identity arc and always has been. 

a good deed indeed doesn't wash out the bad, and it never can. I think one of the points grrm is trying to make is how people can get corrupted by what happens to them (this goes for both Jaime and Theon) and how good people can do bad things under the right circemstances (Theon, Arya, Daenerys...) Humans are complex and very flawed, we are often controlled by our emotions and it takes a very strong and self aware person to take that control back.