Opinions on Theon

[sifth]

43 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

No I didn't know that... he sounds pretty sane to me, certainly more sane than he was in acok where he got so paranoid he couldn't distinguish the lies he told himself from the truth.
in adwd he's traumatised. i've been traumatised, my best friend has been traumatised, does that make us insane?
 

internally excusing yourself means you feel guilty. if you don't feel guilty there's no reason to try to excuse yourself, this should be very simple, I don't understand why it's so hard a concept for you to graps. (also because I've explained it a gazillion times already, not to mentioned linked articles that explained it)

Saying Reek is sane is just silly. He acts like a trained and beaten dog most of the time. To be honest Theon is a literal example of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". Theon wanted to make his father proud and become a "real" Ironborn by taking Winterfell, and in the process betrayed everyone who cared for him, and murdered dozens of innocents. He's still a good person because he has a bad dream or two though, by your logic, lol

 

edit: More like Jamie got retconned from being a villain, to a main character. His back story about killing the mad king doesn't even make sense.

[INCBlackbird]

4 minutes ago, sifth said:

Saying Reek is sane is just silly. He acts like a trained and beaten dog most of the time.

And how exactly does that make him insane?

4 minutes ago, sifth said:

To be honest Theon is a literal example of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

The stupidest saying ever created.

5 minutes ago, sifth said:

Theon wanted to make his father proud and become a "real" Ironborn by taking Winterfell, and in the process betrayed everyone who cared for him, and murdered dozens of innocents.

"everyone who cared about him really? So now Robb is "everyone who cared about him" what about his mother? Asha? Dagmer? they aren't people I guess? or they are not convenient to your argument?
 

8 minutes ago, sifth said:

He's still a good person because he has a bad dream or two though, by your logic, lol

I don't know if you understand this but people have different standards on how to determine if someone is or isn't a good person. You are welcome to your own. I have mine, I don't see how that's funny?

[kimim]

16 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

And I think that pretending like Theon is all bad shows poor understanding of the series. His character is one of the most complex characters out there why would anyone reducing him to a one dimensional villain show a good understanding of the series? It is not simple at all that is the point I'm trying to make, which is actually why i'm reading this series, because it's not simple. if you want to read simple stories why not read one of the million where the characters aren't complex and realistic? And no I am not a lawyer, i'm a film editor who also happens to be interested in psychology and is amazed at the lack of understanding of it displayed on this forum.

See Theon's decision to kill the miller's kids. There's an interview where GRRM says Jaime shoved Bran out the window because he was defending his children: If Bran tells, Robert kills them all. I don't think that GRRM was excusing Jaime, but he was trying to create empathy for him. He tells the interviewer to put himself in Jaime's place. If he believed that his children's lives were at stake, wouldn't he be tempted to do what Jaime did? Sandor kills Micah because those were his orders; he's the Hound. He obeys his master. Tywin has Rhaegar's kids killed for political reasons and for the sake of stability. 

I can't come up with any excuses for what Theon does. He's not defending his family or obeying orders. Killing the kids to make it look like he killed Bran and Rickon is politically idiotic, weakens his position, makes him hated. What he does is so awful that GRRM puts him through the kind of hell he doesn't put Jaime or Sandor through. And yes, it's a redemption arc; it's not "oh, poor Theon." The man was despicable. The unexpected thing is that this child murdering, betraying fuck up is a better human being in Dance, and GRRM hands him some of the best chapters in that book. Which is cool.

 

[INCBlackbird]

5 minutes ago, kimim said:

See Theon's decision to kill the miller's kids. There's an interview where GRRM says Jaime shoved Bran out the window because he was defending his children: If Bran tells, Robert kills them all. I don't think that GRRM was excusing Jaime, but he was trying to create empathy for him. He tells the interviewer to put himself in Jaime's place. If he believed that his children's lives were at stake, wouldn't he be tempted to do what Jaime did? Sandor kills Micah because those were his orders; he's the Hound. He obeys his master. Tywin has Rhaegar's kids killed for political reasons and for the sake of stability. 

I can't come up with any excuses for what Theon does. He's not defending his family or obeying orders. Killing the kids to make it look like he killed Bran and Rickon is politically idiotic, weakens his position, makes him hated. What he does is so awful that GRRM puts him through the kind of hell he doesn't put Jaime or Sandor through. And yes, it's a redemption arc; it's not "oh, poor Theon." The man was despicable. The unexpected thing is that this child murdering, betraying fuck up is a better human being in Dance, and GRRM hands him some of the best chapters in that book. Which is cool.

 

And now I'm asking you to do what GRRM asked the interviewer to do for Jaime, put yourself in Theon's place. If you can't do that, which apparently you can't, I can't help you. i've explained it all a hundred times over I'm not going to repeat myself again. I shouldn't even have to explain it if people on this forum were able to empathise with Theon but apparently that's too threathening, perhaps because they see their own flaws in him and don't want to be reminded of them cause they're just as in denial as Theon is.

[Winter's Cold]

12 minutes ago, kimim said:

Tywin has Rhaegar's kids killed for political reasons and for the sake of stability. 

The murder of Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaenys makes political sense but there is no excuse for the gangrape of Tysha. That act is what makes Tywin a villain rather than an antagonist. I agree with the rest of your points though.

[Nevets]

34 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

I'd probably strongly disagree with the character who said that because I think that in general people have way too little empathy and don't understand why someone commited a certain crime. As in, they are unable to empathise. And most of all they are self-rightious as hell and think "i'd never do that" and if they think that they're very naive. when someone is not a psychopath, they generally have very good reasons to do what they did, otherwise they wouldn't have done it. Jaime and Sandor had their reasons as well, so did Arya, and pretty much everyone else in the story who isn't a psychopath. "avoiding ridicule?!? Please." I have explained this in detail so at this point I can't say anything but: empathy, do you have it?
 

Yes, I have it.   Unfortunately, my empathy for Theon is for the most part outweighed by my empathy for those he has harmed or mistreated.

I forgot to mention his attitude toward women.  He seems to only regard women as objects for sex.  his treatment of the Captain's daughter is, frankly, appalling.  She should be grateful for probably being pregnant, because she will be having a king's bastard?  Really?  Blech!  His first reaction to Asha is to try to seduce her.  He deserved his humiliation on that one.  And his only thought about Meera was to wonder if she was a maiden.  Although that was probably just as well, since he might have realized that her deep loyalty to the Starks and survival skills posed a threat, but still...

40 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

Ok, lets try it this way... would you enjoy being a hostage under theat of death just because you get important experiences? I certainly wouldn't. thinking you can die any moment is absolutly horrible, I would think that something like that is obvious and doesn't have to be repeated over and over in order for people to understand, but apparently I was wrong and many people can't imagine what something would be like if it doesn't happen to them. and thus my negativity about humanity increases, thank you.

No, I wouldn't enjoy it, but would try to make the best out of it that I could.  And I don't think I would feel resentment of whoever was put in charge, unless I was actually treated badly.  Lew Piper, for example, seems to be taking his situation in stride.  I'm sure he is a bit scared of what could happen if his father strays, but doesn't seem to be letting it affect him otherwise.  And if I were Theon, I might well feel more resentment for my father who put me in this situation with his stupidity and misbehavior in the first place than Ned, who has always treated me well.  Just sayin'.

54 minutes ago, King Ned Stark said:

I think you're referring to A Few Good Men, kind of similar actually, because they're found not guilty of all counts except dishonorable conduct.  

Yes, it was A Few Good Men.  I like the quote not because of the actual situation, but because it encapsulates my opinion with regard to some (although by no means, all) defenses that I hear.   "Yes, I believe your explanation, but it's insufficient to excuse what you have done."  Obviously not the case in the movie itself, but I still think it still applies to Theon.

[INCBlackbird]

2 minutes ago, Nevets said:

Yes, I have it.   Unfortunately, my empathy for Theon is for the most part outweighed by my empathy for those he has harmed or mistreated.

So it's impossible to have empathy for both at the same time?
 

4 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I forgot to mention his attitude toward women.  He seems to only regard women as objects for sex.  his treatment of the Captain's daughter is, frankly, appalling.  She should be grateful for probably being pregnant, because she will be having a king's bastard?  Really?  Blech!  His first reaction to Asha is to try to seduce her.  He deserved his humiliation on that one.  And his only thought about Meera was to wonder if she was a maiden.  Although that was probably just as well, since he might have realized that her deep loyalty to the Starks and survival skills posed a threat, but still...

Yes, Theon has a deeply unhealthy relationship with women. i've explained why already in this thread, i'm not gonna do so again, if you empathise with him, it should be obvious but apparently you can't so...
 

8 minutes ago, Nevets said:

No, I wouldn't enjoy it, but would try to make the best out of it that I could.  And I don't think I would feel resentment of whoever was put in charge, unless I was actually treated badly.  Lew Piper, for example, seems to be taking his situation in stride.  I'm sure he is a bit scared of what could happen if his father strays, but doesn't seem to be letting it affect him otherwise.  And if I were Theon, I might well feel more resentment for my father who put me in this situation with his stupidity and misbehavior in the first place than Ned, who has always treated me well.  Just sayin'.

when exactly does Theon feel resentment towards Ned... it would be logical if he did but he barely does... which is remarkable if you ask me because it's the logical reaction, to you know being hurt. apparently even if I litarly ask you to put yourself into his situation you're still looking at it from an outside perspective so this whole thing is completely futile.

[Winter's Cold]

18 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I forgot to mention his attitude toward women.  He seems to only regard women as objects for sex.  his treatment of the Captain's daughter is, frankly, appalling.  She should be grateful for probably being pregnant, because she will be having a king's bastard?  Really?  Blech!  His first reaction to Asha is to try to seduce her.  He deserved his humiliation on that one.  And his only thought about Meera was to wonder if she was a maiden.  Although that was probably just as well, since he might have realized that her deep loyalty to the Starks and survival skills posed a threat, but still...

He also has similar thoughts about Arya and Sansa.

Quote

A pity Ned Stark had taken his daughters south; elsewise Theon could have tightened his grip on Winterfell by marrying one of them. Sansa was a pretty little thing too, and by now likely even ripe for bedding.

 

[The Ned's Little Girl]

 

1 hour ago, INCBlackbird said:

I'd probably strongly disagree with the character who said that because I think that in general people have way too little empathy and don't understand why someone commited a certain crime.

I think that it's absolutely possible for a person to precisely understand why someone committed a certain crime and even empathize with those reasons - and still condemn that person for committing the crime. It's not a zero-sum exercise; understanding and condemnation absolutely can co-exist.

 

[kimim]

21 minutes ago, Winter's Cold said:

The murder of Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaenys makes political sense but there is no excuse for the gangrape of Tysha. That act is what makes Tywin a villain rather than an antagonist. I agree with the rest of your points though.

I agree, and I'm not trying to defend Tywin. I'm scraping bottom looking for excuses for child killers, and even then I can't find one for Theon.

 

38 minutes ago, INCBlackbird said:

And now I'm asking you to do what GRRM asked the interviewer to do for Jaime, put yourself in Theon's place. If you can't do that, which apparently you can't, I can't help you. i've explained it all a hundred times over I'm not going to repeat myself again. I shouldn't even have to explain it if people on this forum were able to empathise with Theon but apparently that's too threathening, perhaps because they see their own flaws in him and don't want to be reminded of them cause they're just as in denial as Theon is.

...yes, but GRRM gave a very strong reason for Jaime's decision to shove Bran out the window. He was trying to save his kids. I even counted "obeying orders," and "politics." Those are terrible reasons for killing children, but given asoiaf, they at least count as excuses. Theon kills the miller's kids because if people found out that Bran and Rickon escaped, "they would have mocked me … laughed at me."

Look, I'm trying. Yes, poor Theon. He never felt as if he belonged. He hid his insecurity behind a cocky exterior. He knew that Ned would have no compunctions about killing him if Balon broke the agreement. He thought he would serve both Robb and his father when he went to Balon, but then didn't have the strength of character to serve either side, so he went off on his own to conquer WF, where everyone treated him with contempt. Then two young kids "mocked" him by daring to escape, so he killed two other kids, burned their corpses, hung them up, as he didn't want to be laughed at. Then he felt guilty...very guilty...especially guilty, as one or both of those kids might have been his. And people kept mocking him, anyway. And then he killed more people, got screwed, castrated, flayed, tortured, etc.

At some point during Theon's long and sad saga, I do start empathizing with him. That point is long after he kills the kids, though.

 

[sweetsunray]

32 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

 

I think that it's absolutely possible for a person to precisely understand why someone committed a certain crime and even empathize with those reasons - and still condemn that person for committing the crime. It's not a zero-sum exercise; understanding and condemnation absolutely can co-exist.

 

Exactly.

And also, people who have affective empathy can choose to ignore it. We have control on how much we allow ourselves to feel empathy. We have a "turn-off knob". If we could not do that, our houses would be full of stray dogs and cats and homeless.

Most people here understand well enough the issues that plague Theon. And we would allow ourselves to sympathize with it completely, if he did not harm innocent people for it. But his unwillingness to take full responsibility for his choices and his unwillingness to repent and change his course and ways outweigh everything else, so I turn-off the sympathy knob, for aCoK Theon. I refuse to accept Theon's reasons as valid excuses.

A part of me actually can feel empathy for the shallow emotional life an actual psychopath has. I feel sorry for them that they miss out on appreciating aspects about life, because of their disorder. They can't even be faulted for not feeling guilt, for not feeling affective empathy, for not being able to bond with anyone, since they are incapable of it. In a way I pity them. But I refuse to sympathize with them because they cognitively know right from wrong.

[INCBlackbird]

53 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

 

I think that it's absolutely possible for a person to precisely understand why someone committed a certain crime and even empathize with those reasons - and still condemn that person for committing the crime. It's not a zero-sum exercise; understanding and condemnation absolutely can co-exist.

 

Of course it can co-exist. I understand Theon and I condemn his crimes. I don't need to simplify his actions and the reasons for those actions to condemn them. A lot of people on this thread are doing that. just like a lot of people do that to people in real life. When people demand that someone gets the maximum punishment it's often because they don't understand them (except when it's about psychopaths but that's not because they should be punished, it's because they are a danger to society), because they have simplified their actions to "they did this, the reasons don't matter" and they don't even try to put themselves into that person's shoes. Personally, I'm against the concept of punishment altogether. In theory at least, in practice it's nessacary of course but for example, I don't think that prison should be a punishment, it should be a place where only the people who are an actual danger are held and are helped in any way they can be (if it's possible, with psychopaths it's not possible, I think).

[INCBlackbird]

45 minutes ago, kimim said:

...yes, but GRRM gave a very strong reason for Jaime's decision to shove Bran out the window. He was trying to save his kids. I even counted "obeying orders," and "politics." Those are terrible reasons for killing children, but given asoiaf, they at least count as excuses. Theon kills the miller's kids because if people found out that Bran and Rickon escaped, "they would have mocked me … laughed at me."

Look, I'm trying. Yes, poor Theon. He never felt as if he belonged. He hid his insecurity behind a cocky exterior. He knew that Ned would have no compunctions about killing him if Balon broke the agreement. He thought he would serve both Robb and his father when he went to Balon, but then didn't have the strength of character to serve either side, so he went off on his own to conquer WF, where everyone treated him with contempt. Then two young kids "mocked" him by daring to escape, so he killed two other kids, burned their corpses, hung them up, as he didn't want to be laughed at. Then he felt guilty...very guilty...especially guilty, as one or both of those kids might have been his. And people kept mocking him, anyway. And then he killed more people, got screwed, castrated, flayed, tortured, etc.

At some point during Theon's long and sad saga, I do start empathizing with him. That point is long after he kills the kids, though.

 

Does GRRM have to spell out the reasons for you? Can't you empathise yourself without someone telling you how exactly you should empathise? I don't know if you know what it feels like to be mocked but I certainly do. I was bullied all throughout primary school and highschool. But the point is that  for Theon it has a lot more consequences. There's the fact that he's highborn, which means he has a reputation, which means that if people found out he let two kids escape he would have to carry that reputation with him for the rest of his life. His family certainly wouldn't want him anymore, ever. No one would ever respect him, his life would practically be over. it's not just a matter of a few people laughing at him. I've explained that earlier in this very thread, and I don't really understand why I even have to explain this, it should be obvious.

why did you start emphathising with him only after he killed those kids? how about in AGOT when you found out he was a hostage? how about when his father screamed at him? when his sister bullied him? aren't those things that a person doesn't deserve to have to go through? aren't they things that would mess someone up?

[INCBlackbird]

35 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And also, people who have affective empathy can choose to ignore it. We have control on how much we allow ourselves to feel empathy. We have a "turn-off knob". If we could not do that, our houses would be full of stray dogs and cats and homeless.

Most people here understand well enough the issues that plague Theon. And we would allow ourselves to sympathize with it completely, if he did not harm innocent people for it. But his unwillingness to take full responsibility for his choices and his unwillingness to repent and change his course and ways outweigh everything else, so I turn-off the sympathy knob, for aCoK Theon. I refuse to accept Theon's reasons as valid excuses.

A part of me actually can feel empathy for the shallow emotional life an actual psychopath has. I feel sorry for them that they miss out on appreciating aspects about life, because of their disorder. They can't even be faulted for not feeling guilt, for not feeling affective empathy, for not being able to bond with anyone, since they are incapable of it. In a way I pity them. But I refuse to sympathize with them because they cognitively know right from wrong.

I'm sorry but to turn off your empathy for anyone is disgusting if you ask me. And no, I can feel empathy for a homeless person and yet not take them home, I certainly feel like doing that all the time but I know that I can't. I can be empathic and rational at the same time.

So you admit yourself that you don't sympathise? Then how can you judge him? If you judge someone you're supposed to you know judge "them" as in, put yourself in their shoes and judge from their perspective. you are admitting right here that you refuse to do that on purpose.

psychopaths have it easy, they don't have to feel guilty, they can be completely selfish and hurt others when it's convient to them without being punished by their concience. I don't blame them for being psychopaths as it's not their fault, and I don't feel the need to punish them for being a psychopath but they are a danger to society. we developed empathy for a reason, because we survive better in group and to do so we have to care about the welfare of others.

[sifth]

3 hours ago, INCBlackbird said:

 

I don't know if you understand this but people have different standards on how to determine if someone is or isn't a good person. You are welcome to your own. I have mine, I don't see how that's funny?

Fair point, though it is a little disturbing that someone can think a child murder and a traitor is a good person. I can tell you love Theon though, so I wont bother you anymore. I just can't view the guy as anything, but a black hearted monster. The best thing I can say about him is I loved the Reek chapters. They were some of the best literature I've read in a long time.

[teej6]

On September 27, 2016 at 3:54 AM, INCBlackbird said:

And yes the reason I love him are his flaws, that's why I talk about them all the time. But just because I explain to people in what way he's flawed or where they come from doesn't mean I'm excusing him, I still don't understand where that kind of logic came from. As if a person who is flawed can't do anything wrong? As if Theon has to be someone who is stable in order to be responsible for his mistakes?  that seems to be the logic of a lot of people on here because they seem to  want to deny his flaws in order to then claim he's responsible for his actions. how about he can be flawed and also responsible?
 

In my reading of your posts you do nothing but make excuses for Theon's faults and sometimes downright evil acts. I can't tell if that is your intent or not.

Many of the posters responding to you on this thread (myself included) have clearly stated their rationale for their dislike of the vile acts committed by Theon. And contrary to what you keep stating, a lot of the posters on this thread who dislike Theon's actions do so not because they can't empathize with the character or don't have as good an understading of his character as you do, but because they see his actions as plainly wrong, some of which were committed out of complete disregard for human life. Theon killed the millers boys to save face and for no other reason. Yes, as you've repeatedly pointed out many others in the series have killed but few have done so on such callous grounds. 

Feeling empathy for a person and condemning his/her evil act are not mutually exclusive. I can sit in my apartment and feel empathy for a freedom fighter in a distant land but that doesn't mean I won't condemn his/her action if they shoot innocent people in the name of freedom. There's a big difference between feeling empathy for a killer and justifying his/her act, the latter of which is what you are doing in your defense of Theon.  

[BlueBard]

3 hours ago, INCBlackbird said:

I'm sorry but to turn off your empathy for anyone is disgusting if you ask me. And no, I can feel empathy for a homeless person and yet not take them home, I certainly feel like doing that all the time but I know that I can't. I can be empathic and rational at the same time.

So you admit yourself that you don't sympathise? Then how can you judge him? If you judge someone you're supposed to you know judge "them" as in, put yourself in their shoes and judge from their perspective. you are admitting right here that you refuse to do that on purpose.

psychopaths have it easy, they don't have to feel guilty, they can be completely selfish and hurt others when it's convient to them without being punished by their concience. I don't blame them for being psychopaths as it's not their fault, and I don't feel the need to punish them for being a psychopath but they are a danger to society. we developed empathy for a reason, because we survive better in group and to do so we have to care about the welfare of others.

 

And negative childhood experiences makes a murderer and woman abuser a good person who just went a bit wrong because they are a victim of the Westerosi hostage system and anyone who doesn't empathise with Theon is disgusting?

Where is your empathy for the Miller's boys? You've already stated the Captains daughter "knew what she was getting into" when there is ample evidence in the text that she patently didn't. where's your empathy for her? Where's your empathy for Beth, the little girl with the noose round her neck?

Is it disgusting to not empathise with Theon's victims? 

People in Westeros hate the Ironborn because they steal, murder and rape and take pride in their savagery, that seems like a fair response to me-they are like ISIS without the proselytising. Given the Ironborn culture and their propensity to revel in violence rather than sow its obvious the Starks treated Theon well and eventually trusted him enough to include him in every aspect of family life

On this forum its a dead cert that most of us were bullied as kids lol, Using his hostage status as "mitigating circumstances" doesn't support your argument that Theon was a good guy really and the rest of are just too horrible or stupid to see it. Mitigation is used to decide on punishment, not guilt or innocence. Not a single person has said Theon deserved Ramsay's torture, in fact everyone has said nobody deserved to be treated that way and they sympathise with Reek. Notwithstanding that sympathy, being bullied and being a hostage who lives like a Lord is not a sufficient explanation for his truly awful behaviour. Being a weak and cruel boy who never displays a shred of empathy for anyone else  does.

You should have named this thread 'Positive opinions only on Theon' as you seem to have a hard time accepting people have valid reasons to have negative opinions of him.

[Rippounet]

8 hours ago, INCBlackbird said:

That is your opinion, it's not mine, I have more compassion than that. Humans are very complex, and I think it's important to acknowledge that complexity. The entire point of asoiaf (or at least one of them) is to show how complex we are yet a lot of fans seem to want to reduce the characters to one dimensional simplisitic characters.
yes but if the readers use the precious thing they have been given (if everything went well), called empathy they can put themselves in the shoes of the characters and understand their situation from their point of view with the context of the world they live in. that's the entire point of empathy.

What you fail to see is that understanding, or even empathizing, does not equal excusing or condoning.
Contrary to what you say, most people who argue with you understand or try to understand the reasons for Theons actions and still condemn them.

Precisely because humans are complex. A person's moral character isn't solely defined by their experience. From a legal point of view, we judge people based on their ability to make informed choices at a given moment.

What's crucial to understand about Theon is that while his life story excuses betraying the Starks, it does not excuse the killing of innocents. The choices he made, while understandable, would not necessarily have been that of another character. In fact, throughout the series, other characters are faced with similar dilemmas and choose to protect the innocents rather than protect themselves. This is what makes them heroes in the common sense of the term.

As for compassion... I'm not sure what you want from us. You admit that he did wrong, but think we shouldn't condemn him, is that it? Interesting. I'm actually very liberal on such issues, and don't believe in punishment either. But the moral character that Theon showed is in very respect that which I despise, and which I think should be punished in order for society to function.
He already was, mind you. Martin took care of that for us.

8 hours ago, INCBlackbird said:

About Arya, she's not a psychopath, a psychopath is someone who doesn't have empathy, Arya has plenty of empathy, she's just been traumatised.

This is hard to say, and it depends how you define psychopathy. But some of Arya's actions go far beyond that of a traumatized kid.

[shizett]

5 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I think that it's absolutely possible for a person to precisely understand why someone committed a certain crime and even empathize with those reasons - and still condemn that person for committing the crime. It's not a zero-sum exercise; understanding and condemnation absolutely can co-exist.

Thank you. You put it better than I could.

I think others are arguing  better than I possibly can. So, I'm out!

[INCBlackbird]

6 hours ago, sifth said:

Fair point, though it is a little disturbing that someone can think a child murder and a traitor is a good person. I can tell you love Theon though, so I wont bother you anymore. I just can't view the guy as anything, but a black hearted monster. The best thing I can say about him is I loved the Reek chapters. They were some of the best literature I've read in a long time.

And to me it's disturbing that there are people who apparently intensionally turn off their empathy for some people.