Opinions on Theon

[the trees have eyes]

22 hours ago, INCBlackbird said:

It trumps the things you brought up yes. Because these people were not at risk of never belonging anywhere (they already did) they weren't desparate, they weren't anxious, They were at risk of losing sometime, sometimes even their lives but in those cases it was for someone they cared about. Theon was at risk of living a life where no one cared about him ever, where no one wanted him, where no one loved him. Do you understand the gravity of such a situation?

This is utterly and completely false.  Theon expected Balon to acknowledge him as his heir and was in fact making plans for how he would lead the Ironborn to victory in the fight against the Lannisters himself (Balon having had his day).  When he doesn't find IMMEDIATE acceptance and heir apparent / military leader status and realisese that Vication is his father's right hand man and Asha a trusted and formidable war captain (though not a credible successor to Balon due to Ironborn mysogyny) he tries to make his mark by seizing Winterfell.  Once Bran and Rickon escape and he realises that the Ironborn have no interest in keeping and garrisoning Winterfell he can retreat to the coast, status, wealth and material comforts as Balon's son intact, reputation enhanced by a daring and clever raid that seized the enemy's stronghold and only somewhat tarnished by the escape of two valuable hostages.

The idea that leaving Winterfell - as the Ironborn strategy in fact required - would make Theon an outcast or pariah is simply untrue.  The idea that this life was in fact over if he did this is simply wrong.  He would have enhanced his reputation and have ample time to work on enhancing his authority by earning Balon and Victarion's trust, something he should have understood from the start.

The idea that the other people you referenced weren't desparate or anxious or not belonging anywhere is particularly nonsensical.  Davos risks execution.  And he doesn't act alone either.  He sends Edric Storm to the Free Cities with several men who volunartily go into exile.  It's this contrast with Theon that is obvious to everyone else but not to you that is proving mindboggling.

You might also consider that Theon doesn't actualy risk that much becuase he doesn't have that much to lose other than his pride and his ego.  They clearly matter to him a lot, I'll give you that much.  There is no one at Winterfell who he particularly cares about as you have argued yourself, the fondness he feels for the odd beer he had with Farlan not counting enough to prevent him from framing and executing the man for murder or for throwing Septon Chayle down the wll as an offering to the Drowned God.  Davos has a wife and children so he has a lot to lose yet he risks his life to save Edric Storm all the same.  Go figure.

[the trees have eyes]

On 08/10/2016 at 11:12 AM, INCBlackbird said:

If you understood it than what is the problem? You can just say you disagree instead of questioning how I form my opinions as if I shouldn't be allowed to do so.

The irony of this is that you repeatedly tell people that they do not understand Theon, implicitly and often explicitly saying you do not agree with how they form their opinoins and stridently rejecting the validity of their conclusions. #irony

On 08/10/2016 at 5:38 PM, INCBlackbird said:

I don't believe that, I don't believe that if you read his chapters carefully and understand anything about human psychology you can come to the conclusion that he is cruel, that everyone else are just objects to him, or that anything like that. If you have come to those conclusions you are simply wrong. It's like saying that Daenerys had bad intensions or that Jaime doesn't love Cersei. And I have explained why, I can give you the quotes that prove it if you want but I have a feeling that wouldn't do any good anyways. Btw what I was refering to when I talked about the disagreement was about how I judge people. Now if you think I am wrong about Theon why don't you go ahead and quote me some things that prove me wrong? instead of just saying that I am wrong.

Now what were you saying in the post immediately above this one?

23 hours ago, INCBlackbird said:

It shows when he wished he'd died with Robb, it shows when he gives his men a choice whether or not to fight for him, it shows when he says he can't "stomach" killing Benfred tallheart, it shows when he feels guilty, it shows when he can't stop thinking about Jeyne and hears her tears in his mind and finds it unbearable, it shows when he manages to regain his identity so he can save Jeyne.

How does any of this show there is a lot of good in Theon?

He wishes he had died with Robb with a friend and with honour rather than becoming despised and firiendless because of his actions.  That does not make him good, it shows a bit of self-pity.  Understandable given the circumstances but that's all it tells us.

He gives his men a chance to leave rather than fight to the death.  Ok, that allows most of them to leave and survive, Wex being the only survivor of those who stayed  That is possibly the faintest of compliments though.

Benred Tallheart? What are you thinking?!!!  He does not give a damn that Benfred dies or not he just doesn't have the balls to do it himself.  Indeed, Farlan has to shame him into performing his execution himself.  And I have no doubt Reek or Theon's men got their hands dirty rather than Theon himself with the Miller's boys.  This doesn't show there is a lot of good in him just that he would rather others did the dirty work for him.  He could have argued for keeping Benfred alive for questioning later, he had the command not Aeron but he thought the Ironborn less likely to see him as a great leader if he spared Benfred so he let Aeron drown him.  That's not being good...

Feeling guilt does not make someone good.  It shows that that cognitively and emotionally they know they did something wrong.  All it tells us is they fall within the normal spectrum range for adult human beings.  What they actually did and why will tell us whether they are "good" or not.

[INCBlackbird]

10 hours ago, shizett said:

I think we are going in circles, so maybe this would be my last post. I don't think I really can provide you with more opinions.

Yes we are going in circles, maybe i'm not making myself clear. i'm gonna try one more time and if it doesn't help I guess we should just stop it and agree to disagree because it's pointless.
 

11 hours ago, shizett said:

He should have been considering his options. I kept bringing up the taboo about child killing to show that Theon has to make a deliberate attempt to cross that line. But you dismiss other people's sacrifices, you believe (very extremely) that family, love, honor, belonging, or life does not mean to others as belonging means to Theon and apparently that becomes a pass for him to do much much worse than many characters, including Arya for example, who is MUCH younger Theon and has a very serious IC herself.

Yes he should definitly have considered his options, if he had he probably would have made a better choice because as you (or others I don't remember) have pointed out many times, killing those kids didn't actually fix the problem, in the end it only made it worse. And if he had thought about it rationally he could have come to that conclusion. But he didn't, because when people are emotionally compromised they have difficulty thinking rationally. They make rash, impulsive decisions that often turn out to be unhelpfull in the long run. And that is exactly what Theon does too. And just to be clear, that doesn't mean that Theon shouldn't be held accountable for what he did, it doesn't meak his actions justifiable or excusable but this is simply what happened. And you can make any judgement you like about that honestly, but so can I correct? And my "personal" judgement is that I have made wrong decisions under stress in the past, especially when I was his age, i'm sure most people have (and no in most cases that does not involve killing children but that is not my point, just so we don't get lost on that path) and therefore I think that makes his actions understandable (not excuseable) and it makes him an interesting and realistic character.

For me it's not a matter of what he should have done, It's a matter of what he did and how to explain that within both the psychology of the character and the context of the world they live in. And this can be done with every other character, including characters like Ramsay and Gregor, and I have written essays about Ramsay as well for example, though I think not enough is known about his childhood to make a solid explanation for how he is the way he is. This is what i'm trying to do, i'm trying to give explanations for Theon. And for me personally, in Theon's case they tell me that he's not a bad person, and I don't judge him harshly (then again there's few characters I judge harshly you will find). How other people judge him based on that explanation is up to them. If you call every child murderer evil than ok, than we have different opinions on what makes a person evil and that is fine cause it's a personal thing, arguing about it is pointless really. But my problem comes when people say things about Theon that are wrong, not in terms of judgement but in terms of explanation, like "he just did it because he sees others as objects" and stuff like that.

11 hours ago, shizett said:

It does, because not killing young kids is not supposed to be a rational decision. He is supposed to be programed not to do it. He grew up with the Ned "never killing the children" Stark. I keep trying to make it clear that default is NOT killing children, under any circumstances, Theon is not defaulting, he is choosing, actively and savagely. That is why I do believe he is showing his core.

Of course everyone should be defaulted not to kill anyone else, and most people are, including Theon. I didn't say he was defaulting, I said he made a rash irrational decision because he was under pressure, which is what often happens when people are under pressure.

Here's an interesting bit from an article I read about it to clarify:

“It turns out, making a tough decision is a game of inches.”

These sage words of truth came from Dr. Daniel (Danny) Friedland, and they got my attention. He was referring to the inches that separate the neocortex, your “thinking brain,” from the amygdala, located in a survival-oriented region of your brain. (That’s the more primitive part that controls things like fight or flight.)

Unfortunately, this life-saving part of the brain can also lead you to make reflexive and regrettable decisions in business and in life when you’re under pressure because it doesn’t have the capacity to think things through.

11 hours ago, shizett said:

Neither: attacking WF, taken Starklings.

First off, Robb is responding on an attack to his family, secodnly he is not going to war against his best friend. That is why. It is very very plain. AND I am not going to discuss this any further. If you truly think Theon is always at a liberty to betray his best friend when acting as his envoy by attacking the said friends house, kill his household people, and take all his younger siblings as hostages (when he is not even asked by anyone to do so, or is in danger of losing credibility) because war, we do not have any thing to discuss. We see morality differently, we see friendship differently, we see war differently. I find Theon's actions towards Robb deplorable. War does not justify Theon targeting Robb so personally, ever.

Just so we are clear: WF is not enemy's castle only, it is Robb's castle.

He could have done neither sure, but he did take Winterfell. And my point is that if he did that, it would have been the more rational decision to burn it down and take the boys, that would have gotten him his father's praise, he might have even won the war in one strike. It was the rational decision but he didn't do it because he was attached to Winterfell he was once again emotionally compromised.

The moment Theon joined his family Robb because his enemy as his family's decision was to attack the Starks and Robb is a Stark. I am against war in general but I think that either Theon taking Winterfell was wrong and Robb taking any castles is also wrong or neither are wrong because of war. That is consistency. And for Robb it probably was easier (emotionally) to take those castles because he didn't know any of the people there but does that mean those people deserve it any more?
 

12 hours ago, shizett said:

Why is it important if it is for revenge or something else? And why is the only deplorable reason for him to have attacked WF is revenge?

Because as I explained several times before, motivations are very important to me. And I'm not saying that the only deplorable reason for him to take WF is revenge, I didn't make any judgement of what is or isn't deplorable we can all decide for ourselves what we do or don't find deplorable. I just said that he didn't do it for revenge, he did it because he was attached to the place.
 

12 hours ago, shizett said:

I understand he had issues. Everyone understands that. And?

You keep bringing up him being an emotional mess, insecure, and irrational as if they make anything clear. It doesn't. You are not saying he is all those things, you say his actions "are understandable" because those things. They are not. He crosses line after line after line. HE finishes by killing the two children, but it is not the first line he crosses.

It makes everything perfectly clear to me.

12 hours ago, shizett said:

You say he is irrational, emotionally a mess, anxious, and apparently he gets a pass for acting unbelievably indecent towards friends, foe, and anyone in between. For me that is making him simple.

I didn't say that gives him a pass, I just explained why he does it. In my book that is explaining his complexity. I honestly don't understand how you think how that could possibly make him simple. If he was none of those things but there simply wasn't any explanation for what he did but that he's a bad person would that not make him simple? What would not make him simple to you?
 

12 hours ago, shizett said:

He had reasons, the fact that they were insufficient is the reason he becomes grey. If he is so emotionally scarred that he cannot be rational or decent at any moment in the span of many weeks. That is not complexity, that is whitewashing. You are saying what he did is not as bad as others thinking, because Theon's intentions are not to be doubted. How is that making him complex?

I did not say his reasons aren't insufficient, once again that's a personal judgement so that's for you and I to make or own decisions off. Either way he definitly is a grey character. I also didn't say that he is so emotionally scarred that he can't be rational or descent at any moment. He has moments where he can be rational for sure, but under pressure he becomes irrational, as a lot of people do, especially young people. I don't see how that's whitewashing, it's simply the truth. I also didn't say that what Theon did wasn't as bad as what others did, I'm saying that he isn't cruel, as in he doesn't enjoy hurting others.

12 hours ago, shizett said:

You can always discuss why people call him cruel and to what degree that is true. But that is not what is happening, we are not allowed to call him cruel, he is tortured. He is not callous, he's got issues inside that prevents him from attending to outside matters. He doesn't enjoy rape, he is trying to mask his insecurities. In real world though these states coexist. I am not saying you say they do not, but you have a strong tendency to dismiss his grand betrayals to Robb, to small folk under him, to his men, by questioning the meaning of betrayal, war, and friendship or questioning the distance necessary for someone to fall so low.

cruelty means to enjoy hurting/killing others. Ramsay is cruel, Gregor is cruel. I think to call Theon cruel is a huge misunderstanding of the character. And you just described why, yourself. You say he's tortured, he's got insecureties and so on... doesn't all of that make it clear to you that Theon doesn't enjoy his actions in Winterfell?

I don't think that betrayals in general are a huge deal, I don't subscribe to the whole issue of oaths at all, I find that a complete lie that is used to have power over others but cover it up by making it sound virtues. I could write you an entire post on why I really hate the whole "honor" thing but let's just leave it at the tldr version I just gave you. I also think that Theon had little to no choice in betraying Robb, which is tragic for the both of them. But when Theon went home he was very much set on convincing his father to fight for Robb, that sadly didn't work out and Theon was forced to make a choice. And in such a world family is expected to come first, always, betraying your family is considered a huge sin. Not to mention that physically Theon had no way of getting back to Robb, his father forbade all the boats from leaving, so I don't really see what you expected him to do. He had to pick a side, he picked his family's side, which is only logical and at that point Robb and him were enemies, which is terrible for the both of them but I don't see how you can fault Theon for that? What did you expect him to do about it? kill his father? So no, I don't consider that a big deal, the people he killed those are his sins as far as I'm concerned. And not because they were in any way related to Robb or The Starks but simply because killing is wrong.

12 hours ago, shizett said:

Saying that Theon is Starks' enemy, so he gets to do the worst to the point of war crimes to win, is whitewashing. Saying that Theon's friendship to Robb is something in his heart and should not translate to his actions in anyway is whitewashing. Saying that killing kids is not about the kids, only about Theon and his issues, is whitewashing. That rape, irresponsible leading techniques, or needless murder is a mask for insecurities is whitewashing. To say that Theon has a lot of good in him because he has shown some guilt and some remorse in response to SO MUCH pain he has inflicted, is whitewashing. 

I didn't say that because Theon is the Stark's enemy it's ok for him to commit war crimes, those are his sins, but I don't think he's the only one who commited those sins in war is he? Robb did it too, yet I don't consider him evil or cruel. All i'm asking for is consistency. "Saying that Theon's friendship to Robb is something in his heart and should not translate to his actions in anyway" I have absolutely no clue what you mean with this sentence. "Saying that killing kids is not about the kids, only about Theon and his issues" It's honestly frustrating that I have to repeat time and time again that I never said this, I said that empathising with the kids is irrelevant to understanding Theon and therefore, in my opinion, to judging him. "That rape, irresponsible leading techniques, or needless murder is a mask for insecurities" I never said this either and I can't even guess where you got it from so if you want to say where you think I said this you're gonna have to clarify. "To say that Theon has a lot of good in him because he has shown some guilt and some remorse in response to SO MUCH pain he has inflicted, is whitewashing." feeling guilty = having some good in your. That's just a fact, I don't see how that's whitewashing at all. Not to mention that that's not all I said that shows he has good in him, you left out the part about saving Jeyne, the part about wanting to die with Robb, the part about giving his men a choice whether or not they want to fight for him.... all kinda crucial parts.

I just want to repeat this to make it clear: just because I explain why a character did something doesn't mean that I immediatly think that they weren't in the wrong for doing it. judgements and explanations aren't the same thing.

[INCBlackbird]

2 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

The irony of this is that you repeatedly tell people that they do not understand Theon, implicitly and often explicitly saying you do not agree with how they form their opinoins and stridently rejecting the validity of their conclusions. #irony

Now what were you saying in the post immediately above this one?

You do understand that there is a difference between judging someone and between understanding someone right? Now, Theon happens to be a character that we even have a pov off, which means he is what GRRM has made him, he is able to be analysed and it's possible to come to an objective understanding of him. therefor something people say about him can be wrong because it's not supported by the text. on the other hand, a way of judging people is personal, we all have our own ways to do so. While I consider my way to be on a moral level, the best way and I strive to get others to understand why I do it that way, it is still subjective. I have explained my way many times and have been told that it is wrong, though I don't think that something that is solely subjective can be wrong. I don't think your way or anyone else' way is wrong either because it's subjective. Like I have repeated many times, all I really ask for is consistency.

[Light a wight tonight]

There have been too many pages of posts for me to go through the whole thing looking for a duplicate, but totally aside from the millers sons and whether or not Theon betrayed the Starks his actions on the way to Pyke show him to be a person whose character is less than admirable. I refer to his treatment of the ship captain's daughter, taking sexual advantage of her during the voyage and casting her aside on arrival, and his subsequent attempt to seduce "Esgerd", the "wife of a shipbuilder", in actuality his sister. Both actions are based on his self-assumed "privilege". No honorable character would have acted this way.   

[The First Man]

Theon is actually a piteous character. Separated from his homeland , the Iron Islands as a boy and raised as ward by the Starks at Winterfell, he realized it only when he returned to Pyke as a youth that in truth, his raising in the North has made a deep impact on his mind. He was not accepted by his family as they thought he had more of the "wolves" inside him and so in order to prove his inner "ironborn", he took up arms against his foster family. After the turn of events, and the amount of torture he goes through as a hostage of Ramsey Bolton, his soul is shattered, which makes his character even more piteous.