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Star Wars Rogue One: Now With Less Rouge


Myrddin

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I'm not sure you're being fair - the Jar Jar and Ewoks things happened long before Disney. And there's nothing in the new Star Wars canon that says Finn couldn't have held out like he did (briefly,) especially since it seems to me that Ren is toying with him.

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8 hours ago, ab aeterno said:

It is worth reiterating though what while there are relatively few female cast members, those that are present do include the protagonist as well as the leader of the rebels.

But that doesn't justify the horrible imbalance overall. I mean, most movies have a male lead: that doesn't mean they have majority female casts.

I did look at what I thought would be the 'main' roles, though of course it's hard to tell without watching the film whether, for example, Mon Mothma will be a bigger part than Bail Organa. Still, even if I take what appear from the trailer to be the ten main cast members, eight are male. And honestly, I'm not sure Mon Mothma's part is going to be that big.

Any way you slice this, this is a film with a female protagonist surrounded almost entirely by male characters, which was Maia's original point.

ETA - I mean, I'm gonna go and see it anyway. Don't get me wrong. I'm just saying, Maia has a valid point.

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Pretty cool trailer, definitely the best so far.

Most exciting: seeing Vader, the Death Star looks incredible, the Star Destroyers and AT-AT's and tie fighters look the business.

Also interesting is the plot line with Krennic and Mads Mikkelsen's character, the dynamic between Krennic and Vader. I may read James Luceno's prequel to Rogue One that comes out in November.

Not so exciting: The supporting and lead cast make a fairly disposable, bland impression on me.

All in this could be an excellent film/ Visually it will be a stunner, that much we can say already.

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I think they feel like they can make movies that really aren't written well, show us a trailer with the iconic images with the score playing in the background... and we'll all keep going to see it like suckers.

Star Wars is a bit bizarre in that it has generated a colossal amount of hype and goodwill given that only two out of the first six films were really excellent, one was good and three were terrible to borderline unwatchable. TFA has pushed that tally up to two good, two good and three terrible, which is slightly better. Hoping Rogue One continues the trend.

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like how Finn lasted more than 3 seconds in a light saber fight with the emo Sith

Finn's squad were all trained in hand-to-hand and melee combat with this big lightsabre-resistant pike things. No reason whatsoever that he couldn't at least put up a moderate defence against the severely wounded, distracted, would-have-been-bleeding-out-without-the-Force, Ren.

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1 hour ago, Werthead said:

Star Wars is a bit bizarre in that it has generated a colossal amount of hype and goodwill given that only two out of the first six films were really excellent, one was good and three were terrible to borderline unwatchable. TFA has pushed that tally up to two good, two good and three terrible, which is slightly better. 

 

I'm sure that's only a matter of a person's opinions though, because you can just as well say they've generated colossal hype and goodwill because thousands and thousands of people really, really like the actual films.

The only prequel that was unwatchable or terrible was Attack of the Clones.

Phantom Menace has plenty of cringeworthy scenes , everything with Jar-Jar, most scenes with young Anakin including that speed race on Tatooine that seemed to go on forever, but it certainly had some fine moments as well, such as the epic final fight, or any scene with Qui Gonn and Obi Wan together in it. Revenge of the Sith was certainly very watchable. The Force Awakens I would rate on the same level as "Sith". 

The OT has dated poorly IMO, so it's hard to evaluate it now. I'm sure I would have loved it if I had been around to watch it when it was still a modern film. But the OT alone had such classic scenes of good vs evil that even based on that people would still be massively excited for a new SW film.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Quijote Light said:

 I personally wouldn't direct criticism towards a franchise that at least appears to be trying when there are other Disney properties, among others, that have really screwed the pooch on gender equality. I'm looking at you Marvel. Where is my Black Widow movie!

While Marvel not progressing with female representation is sad, Rogue One being an actual regression is downright disheartening. Not to mention that as far as I have heard innovation in comics properties is very much hampered by the fact that introducing new super-heroes with a shot at gaining wide popularity appears to be impossible (?! never really understood this - one of the reasons why I remained indifferent to the whole thing), and  identities of existing ones are very much rooted in the past (in some cases rather distant past by now) when they were created.

But R1 didn't have to labor under such constraints, as apart from a few iconic character cameos they were free to do whatever. The Rebellion and Imperial forces involved are different from those in the OT, so they were free to align the film with modern sensibilities and the new canon. And they _chose_ to marginalize females of all species yet again. Yes, despite having a female lead, who only gets recruited because she is a daughter of an important man, let's not forget.  

Like Mormont said, we shall see if Mon Mothma has more than a cameo appearance - the black woman defintely has just a bit role, not to mention that she seems to be a rebel-aligned politician, rather than an actual rebel fighter/operative.  But what is even more damning, is that there are (almost ?) no women as background characters. One of the things that TFA did right was that it included women among the extras, because without societal strictures to keep them out, it makes no sense for them not to be there. They shoudn't need any special reason to be present and accounted for, that's just plain old bigotry. Even Lucas initially intended to have female fighter pilots in RoTJ, and they had a golden opportunity to show some here, as well as some alien pilots, but no. Human dudes all the way so far.

Honestly, all of this makes me very sceptical about the anthology films. If the story group/Kennedy didn't intervene in R1, where they should have been establishing the revised OT canon, and point out the (possibly unconscius, but apparently strong) gender bias, what hope is there for, say, "Han Solo" movie, where not only are the 3 main male characters, including the lead, set in stone, but which is written and helmed by actual old-timers?

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@Maia  

Being part of an underrepresented group myself, I can understand where you're coming from. And considering Mornont's breakdown of the cast I can definitely see where this is a missed opportunity. But, I'm going to withhold judgement on how well or badly they've done with the main character until I've seen the film. I get what you're saying about the method of the characters introduction to the story, but with the combination of the two trailers I'm hopeful that she will undergo a deep and meaningful heroe's journey that is more developed and nuanced than any we've seen in the Star Wars universe before. 

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5 hours ago, Calibandar said:

Pretty cool trailer, definitely the best so far.

Most exciting: seeing Vader, the Death Star looks incredible, the Star Destroyers and AT-AT's and tie fighters look the business.

Also interesting is the plot line with Krennic and Mads Mikkelsen's character, the dynamic between Krennic and Vader. I may read James Luceno's prequel to Rogue One that comes out in November.

Not so exciting: The supporting and lead cast make a fairly disposable, bland impression on me.

All in this could be an excellent film/ Visually it will be a stunner, that much we can say already.

Your criticisms remind me once more that this film is directed by the guy who did Godzilla which looked decent but had a bunch of characters I had zero investment in. I really hope the rogue one group don't suffer the same fate. The guy also directed "monsters" which was good so it's a real toss up and probably boils down to the writers and actors (in defense of "godzilla" Cranston was able to make me care about his character) which are pretty impressive.

The trailers do look pretty good though and whoever's reworking the score for this film is doing an outstanding job.

In terms of gender balance - Star Wars Rebels does a pretty good job overall especially from the second season where all the female characters get something to do. One of the villains in season 3 is turning out to be an interesting antagonist as well.

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9 hours ago, mormont said:

But that doesn't justify the horrible imbalance overall. I mean, most movies have a male lead: that doesn't mean they have majority female casts.

I did look at what I thought would be the 'main' roles, though of course it's hard to tell without watching the film whether, for example, Mon Mothma will be a bigger part than Bail Organa. Still, even if I take what appear from the trailer to be the ten main cast members, eight are male. And honestly, I'm not sure Mon Mothma's part is going to be that big.

Any way you slice this, this is a film with a female protagonist surrounded almost entirely by male characters, which was Maia's original point.

ETA - I mean, I'm gonna go and see it anyway. Don't get me wrong. I'm just saying, Maia has a valid point.

I didn't mean to imply it isn't valid, only that it's preferable to have a strong female lead surrounded by a lot of male characters than to have a male lead surrounded by a lot of female characters in minor/inconsequential roles. While there are only a small number of female characters, they're the ones in charge. Quality over quantity, I suppose. 

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7 hours ago, Werthead said:

Finn's squad were all trained in hand-to-hand and melee combat with this big lightsabre-resistant pike things. No reason whatsoever that he couldn't at least put up a moderate defence against the severely wounded, distracted, would-have-been-bleeding-out-without-the-Force, Ren.

Furthermore, the reason he lasted that long was because Ren wanted him to. Ren is clearly playing with him the entire fight, absurdly so. He's toying with him. As soon as Finn hurts him in any meaningful way Ren finishes it in about 2 seconds. 

Again, the reason Finn lasted at all was by design. It's one of the best parts of that fight - the contrast between how Ren fights Finn and the choreography representing the emotions and thoughts, followed by the way Ren and Rey fight and the difference. It's gorgeous fight choreography. 

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3 hours ago, ab aeterno said:

I didn't mean to imply it isn't valid, only that it's preferable to have a strong female lead surrounded by a lot of male characters than to have a male lead surrounded by a lot of female characters in minor/inconsequential roles. While there are only a small number of female characters, they're the ones in charge. Quality over quantity, I suppose. 

The question's highly theoretical, since 'male lead surrounded by a lot of female characters' is rare to nonexistent in movies. (Outside of porn, I suppose.) More usually it's 'male lead surrounded by male characters'.

But in any case, I don't agree that's preferable at all. Representation matters. Having a strong female lead but surrounding her with hugely disproportionate numbers of male characters creates an impression that the strong female lead is an exception to the rule: that most women are inconsequential. It also forces that character to carry all of the load, meaning she'll either be criticised as flawed or as a Mary Sue. And it makes her too vulnerable to a perception that her story is being driven by (and therefore really about) male characters. We see that already from the very little we know about Rogue One.

You're also placing a lot of weight on Mon Mothma with your 'they're the ones in charge' line. I expect Mon Mothma to be significant in the scenes she's in - but to disappear from the majority of the film. Mostly, it's going to be about Jyn, rescuing a male character from a male character with the help of male characters.

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12 minutes ago, mormont said:

The question's highly theoretical, since 'male lead surrounded by a lot of female characters' is rare to nonexistent in movies. (Outside of porn, I suppose.) More usually it's 'male lead surrounded by male characters'.

Neighbors 2: Sorority Rising begs to differ (and is shocking good). Seth Rogen is the main character, but the only other male character of note is Zac Efron. The other main characters are Rose Byrne, Chloe Grace Moretz, and the other two primary sorority sisters. The rest of the frat bros from the first movie only really get one scene and most of the other supporting characters are women, or married couples. 

Its also getting more common in TV and I'd argue is generally infuriating there. The male leads in these cases are almost always either incompetent schlubs who nevertheless have some sort of amazing intuition or skill that only manifests itself at the end of an episode; or is a standard-stock wannabe anti-hero. In either case, the female supporting characters are generally more interesting (and more talented at whatever activity the male lead is involved in).

I tend to think that if you're only going to have one, its better to have 'female lead surrounded by male supporting cast' than 'male lead surrounded by female supporting cast' though. The leads are the characters that get the most space to do things and capture the audience's attention, and therefore are the ones that are talked about and can influence the culture. More immediately than that, the leads generally provide the primary entertainment value.

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29 minutes ago, mormont said:

The question's highly theoretical, since 'male lead surrounded by a lot of female characters' is rare to nonexistent in movies. (Outside of porn, I suppose.) More usually it's 'male lead surrounded by male characters'.

But in any case, I don't agree that's preferable at all. Representation matters. Having a strong female lead but surrounding her with hugely disproportionate numbers of male characters creates an impression that the strong female lead is an exception to the rule: that most women are inconsequential. It also forces that character to carry all of the load, meaning she'll either be criticised as flawed or as a Mary Sue. And it makes her too vulnerable to a perception that her story is being driven by (and therefore really about) male characters. We see that already from the very little we know about Rogue One.

You're also placing a lot of weight on Mon Mothma with your 'they're the ones in charge' line. I expect Mon Mothma to be significant in the scenes she's in - but to disappear from the majority of the film. Mostly, it's going to be about Jyn, rescuing a male character from a male character with the help of male characters.

I don't really want to start a debate on the issue, but personally (especially in Star Wars, which is a bit like the basketball of movie franchises in some ways), I don't really place much importance in those outside the main heroes, at least not for stories I want to enjoy, rather than analyze. 

As for the ones in charge, in Rogue One, it places a lot of weight on Mon Mothma, but that's because she is (quite possibly already, or if not, she will become,) the overall leader of the Alliance. So it makes sense to place a lot of weight on her. But it goes beyond that - Padme is originally ruler of Naboo and later a Senator and a leader of the Senate faction pushing for peace (along with Mon Mothma); Leia becomes leader of the Resistance - and Mon Mothma was also Supreme Chancellor of the New Republic. So very often in Star Wars, the leaders of the "good" factions are female. You can expand this to Rebels and The Clone Wars to some extent, with Hera and Satine.

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38 minutes ago, ab aeterno said:

I don't really want to start a debate on the issue, but personally (especially in Star Wars, which is a bit like the basketball of movie franchises in some ways), I don't really place much importance in those outside the main heroes, at least not for stories I want to enjoy, rather than analyze. 

I think a lot of people would enjoy them more if they were better represented.

I'll say this for R1, it does at least represent a spectrum of ethnicity. But on gender balance, having a female lead doesn't buy you a pass.

38 minutes ago, ab aeterno said:

As for the ones in charge, in Rogue One, it places a lot of weight on Mon Mothma, but that's because she is (quite possibly already, or if not, she will become,) the overall leader of the Alliance. So it makes sense to place a lot of weight on her.

I think you're misreading me: it's not the theoretical weight of Mon Mothma in the setting but her weight in the film I'm referring to.

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27 minutes ago, mormont said:

I think a lot of people would enjoy them more if they were better represented.

I'll say this for R1, it does at least represent a spectrum of ethnicity. But on gender balance, having a female lead doesn't buy you a pass.

I think you're misreading me: it's not the theoretical weight of Mon Mothma in the setting but her weight in the film I'm referring to.

That's fair enough. 

I take your point about gender balance, I just don't see it as a significant criticism of the movie; more of a weakness on one segment of the diagram. 

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On 10/13/2016 at 2:44 PM, Werthead said:

I thought Alexandre Desplat was doing it? * goes to Wiki * Oh, he's been replaced? Argh. Giacchino's very variable, sometimes great and sometimes very humdrum. When he's on form he can be very inspired though.

If it's a temp track, it must be from some other Star Wars project, as there's that slow piano version of the Imperial March near the start of the trailer which is totally boss.

I found the song for the trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnWjhB_aQnM

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On 14/10/2016 at 1:47 AM, Martini Sigil said:

 (like how Finn lasted more than 3 seconds in a light saber fight with the emo Sith) 

Ren isn't Sith, he's an embarrassment.

Even I was cheering for Rey while watching TFA.

 

This film looks great, Star Destroyers above cities, the galaxy back under proper rule :wub:.

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