Star Wars Rogue One: Now With Less Rouge

[Jen'ari]

5 minutes ago, dbunting said:

Not only that but Darth Vader and The Emperor are in charge! They are users of the force the same as a Jedi would be.

I guess the excuse could be that much like Ned Starks command to his household not to gossip or ask about Jon Snows mother, once the Emperor says don't ever talk about Jedi's, no one does and thy fall from memory? 

You take that back!!.

[Kalbear]

Except almost no one knows the Emperor uses the force or was a Sith, and even fewer people actually know who Darth Vader is. 

[Jen'ari]

Even most high ranking Imperials didn't know the Emperor was force sensitive, In fact I assume more people in the Rebellion would have known than the Empire.

[ab aeterno]

9 hours ago, mormont said:

It's not a very good answer in my opinion, I'm afraid. I mean, it's a decent attempt, but the question it's trying to answer is really difficult to provide a satisfactory answer to, and this doesn't really do that. 20 years is still too short a time for a thing to move from fact to myth. It's within living memory. Either people always regarded Jedi as a myth or they somehow decided they were completely wrong about what used to be an accepted fact. Neither makes much sense.

I think the point is the former - that people never really believed in the Jedi, other than those who came into contact with them frequently. And even then, those who did didn't necessarily believe that they had mystical powers. Jedi as a religion is one thing, Jedi as mystical warrior who can control things with his/her mind is another entirely. 

I don't think that the answer itself was particularly great - I wouldn't expect it to be only coming from the director - but it's basically the same answer that comes up every time the question is raised, so it's useful to see it coming from an official source. 

[ab aeterno]

As has been pointed out already, not only did people not know about Vader and the Emperor on the whole - hell, at least one of the Empire's Admirals who works with Vader didn't even know - the Emperor's entire public justification for forming the Empire was that a cult of religious zealots was trying to overthrow the Republic - it's a less convincing argument if he is one as well. 

[Myrddin]

Basically, Jedi are like ninjas.

Believed to be real, but it's hard to separate reality from myth.

[Rhom]

I have always accepted the "Its a big galaxy" theory... until I was just reading these responses and a line from Ep1 came into my mind.

Qui-Gon to Shmi Skywalker:  "Its a Jedi trait.  If he'd been born in the Republic we would have identified him early..."

So as reclusive and rare as the Jedi are, they still have an active recruitment program that identifies younglings throughout the Republic.  And yet the best answer we have to them being regarded as myth is that they were exceedingly rare.  It has to be true, but what does everyone think all the youth in the Republic being tested for then?

[Kalbear]

6 minutes ago, Rhom said:

I have always accepted the "Its a big galaxy" theory... until I was just reading these responses and a line from Ep1 came into my mind.

Qui-Gon to Shmi Skywalker:  "Its a Jedi trait.  If he'd been born in the Republic we would have identified him early..."

So as reclusive and rare as the Jedi are, they still have an active recruitment program that identifies younglings throughout the Republic.  And yet the best answer we have to them being regarded as myth is that they were exceedingly rare.  It has to be true, but what does everyone think all the youth in the Republic being tested for then?

Probably normal aptitude tests that would test for things combined with blood tests that test for midichlorians. And for the most part I suspect 99% of the people don't have a clue what they're for or why they do them. 

Remember that also in Ep 1 the Trade Federation have barely any idea how to deal with Jedi and barely know their capabilities.

[ab aeterno]

7 minutes ago, Rhom said:

I have always accepted the "Its a big galaxy" theory... until I was just reading these responses and a line from Ep1 came into my mind.

Qui-Gon to Shmi Skywalker:  "Its a Jedi trait.  If he'd been born in the Republic we would have identified him early..."

So as reclusive and rare as the Jedi are, they still have an active recruitment program that identifies younglings throughout the Republic.  And yet the best answer we have to them being regarded as myth is that they were exceedingly rare.  It has to be true, but what does everyone think all the youth in the Republic being tested for then?

I think there's a galaxy of difference between people knowing of this quasi governmental organisation which identifies and recruits a tiny fraction of the population, and knowing/believing in a group of superpowered warriors who can control people's minds, use telekinesis and superhuman strength.

Even though they're identifying force sensitives, their numbers are still incredibly small - given that the Jedi order at it's peak was about 10-20,000 and the Republic has a population of trillions (at least), we're talking somewhere in the region of 0.000000002% of the population and people, or about 7-14 people on Earth at the very most. 

As an example, poor Admiral Motti, who I imagine because of his position would be quite knowledgeable about the galaxy, believes that the Jedi exist as a religion, but sadly demonstrated a disturbing lack of faith in their mystical powers. 

 

[Jen'ari]

44 minutes ago, Rhom said:

I have always accepted the "Its a big galaxy" theory... until I was just reading these responses and a line from Ep1 came into my mind.

Qui-Gon to Shmi Skywalker:  "Its a Jedi trait.  If he'd been born in the Republic we would have identified him early..."

So as reclusive and rare as the Jedi are, they still have an active recruitment program that identifies younglings throughout the Republic.  And yet the best answer we have to them being regarded as myth is that they were exceedingly rare.  It has to be true, but what does everyone think all the youth in the Republic being tested for then?

Their recruitment program can't have blanket coverage for every Republic system though, neither Sidious or Maul were identified as force sensitive in their youth.

I'd have thought that only children who displayed force sensitive traits would be tested.

[All-for-Joffrey]

Yeah -- correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think anyone in the original trilogy ever outright denied the existence of the Jedi. What they expressed skepticism in was the religion and the fact that they had mystical powers. I'm sure a lot of this had to do with Imperial propaganda trying to scrub the Jedi from history and demonizing them. If I lived in the Star Wars universe and had similar political views to my own in this one, I probably would have just assumed that the Jedi were an inappropriate, non-transparent, paramilitary organization of religious zealots and that stories of their mystical powers were simply used to enhance their own prestige to maintain power/used by certain politicians in the Republic for their own political gains.  But the answer in the interview still isn't that great -- namely cause, you know, the internet. (Though granted, I'm sure the Empire heavily censored communications, etc.) 

Rey seems to think the Jedi themselves may have been a myth though before meeting Han, but that's two full generations after the fall of the Old Republic (some 40-50 years I think) and she spent her entire life in some backwater. Seems like Luke never really got off the ground with a new Jedi order before Kylo Ren destroyed it. And most of the public credit in defeating the empire would have gone to the rebels destroying the Death Stars, etc. They wouldn't necessarily know about a closed-door duel between Vader/Luke and the larger role that the Force/Jedi/Sith played in the conflict.  

[ab aeterno]

Even more than that - approximately 53 years after Order 66.

To give a contemporary example, I'm perfectly capable of believing that a guy called Steph Curry exists, and that he plays basketball. I'm still not sure I believe that what he did to the 3pt record the past few of years is physically possible. 

[Fez]

 

1 hour ago, ab aeterno said:

I think there's a galaxy of difference between people knowing of this quasi governmental organisation which identifies and recruits a tiny fraction of the population, and knowing/believing in a group of superpowered warriors who can control people's minds, use telekinesis and superhuman strength.

Even though they're identifying force sensitives, their numbers are still incredibly small - given that the Jedi order at it's peak was about 10-20,000 and the Republic has a population of trillions (at least), we're talking somewhere in the region of 0.000000002% of the population and people, or about 7-14 people on Earth at the very most. 

All it takes is one leaked video recording going viral though and the evidence is out there for everyone. 

Beyond that, we know about tiny secretive organizations of people who can do incredible things already, for instance the Navy SEALS. Most of us never meet them, and we don't usually see direct evidence of what they can do, but I think everyone believes they exist and understands at least the basics of what they are capable of. In fact, its probably likely that more people overestimate their abilities rather than underestimate them.

[Kalbear]

7 minutes ago, Fez said:

 

All it takes is one leaked video recording going viral though and the evidence is out there for everyone. 

Beyond that, we know about tiny secretive organizations of people who can do incredible things already, for instance the Navy SEALS. Most of us never meet them, and we don't usually see direct evidence of what they can do, but I think everyone believes they exist and understands at least the basics of what they are capable of. In fact, its probably likely that more people overestimate their abilities rather than underestimate them.

That speaks to something in the SW universe that's interesting - there is almost no media. At all. We never see reports, we never see reporters. We don't really see anyone watching much of anything. I think the only time we really get any indication of this is...amusingly...in the holiday special. 

Data is stored secretly, sequestered away. People talk about things to each other instead of looking things up. Information not only doesn't want to be free, it wants to be locked away and hidden, and then erased. This is a universe where whole planetary systems that are technologically quite advanced can basically disappear off the grid for years at a time.

[ab aeterno]

Just now, Fez said:

 

All it takes is one leaked video recording going viral though and the evidence is out there for everyone. 

Beyond that, we know about tiny secretive organizations of people who can do incredible things already, for instance the Navy SEALS. Most of us never meet them, and we don't usually see direct evidence of what they can do, but I think everyone believes they exist and understands at least the basics of what they are capable of. In fact, its probably likely that more people overestimate their abilities rather than underestimate them.

So there are a few points here.

Firstly, there are, what, hundreds of Navy SEALS? Thousands? Compared to, on the same scale, around 7-14 Jedi. So this is on a completely different scale.

Secondly, those incredible things are things that you know, or can reasonable believe, to be possible through good genes or hard work and training. If you saw a video of a SEAL moving things with his mind, utilizing mind control, and deflecting bullets with a sword, you'd think it's fake, because based on your experience and your knowledge of the world, you know those things aren't possible. In the last instance, you might view the deflection as luck, or just especially good reflexes, if you're particularly credulous. 

Finally, the Jedi aren't soldiers, and they're not supposed to use their force powers for any other reason than necessity in the pursuit of the greater good. So they're not showing off, they're not looking to display their powers, and they're not recording viral videos.

[Corvinus85]

11 minutes ago, Fez said:

 

All it takes is one leaked video recording going viral though and the evidence is out there for everyone. 

Beyond that, we know about tiny secretive organizations of people who can do incredible things already, for instance the Navy SEALS. Most of us never meet them, and we don't usually see direct evidence of what they can do, but I think everyone believes they exist and understands at least the basics of what they are capable of. In fact, its probably likely that more people overestimate their abilities rather than underestimate them.

But would happen if a dictatorial regime took over the U.S., killed all the Navy SEALS, re-organized the military for its own purposes, took complete control over the media, and unleashed a tireless propaganda about the glory of the regime, and decadence of the old days. How many would still believe in the SEALS 20 years later?

[ab aeterno]

1 minute ago, Kalbear said:

That speaks to something in the SW universe that's interesting - there is almost no media. At all. We never see reports, we never see reporters. We don't really see anyone watching much of anything. I think the only time we really get any indication of this is...amusingly...in the holiday special. 

Data is stored secretly, sequestered away. People talk about things to each other instead of looking things up. Information not only doesn't want to be free, it wants to be locked away and hidden, and then erased. This is a universe where whole planetary systems that are technologically quite advanced can basically disappear off the grid for years at a time.

This too. Even the Jedi can't believe that something can exist if it isn't in their library. Even if that thing is a planet. Which kinda raises the question - are all the Republic's records kept in the Jedi Archives, and if they are, holy crap, maybe Palpatine was right. 

[Kalbear]

3 minutes ago, ab aeterno said:

This too. Even the Jedi can't believe that something can exist if it isn't in their library. Even if that thing is a planet. Which kinda raises the question - are all the Republic's records kept in the Jedi Archives, and if they are, holy crap, maybe Palpatine was right. 

The prequels really could have been amazing if they had focused a bit more on showing how shitty the Jedi really were. They did it at times, but it always felt accidental. Stover's version of Revenge of the Sith got a lot closer. But yeah - the Jedi flat-out sucked. They had no oversight, no moral code but their own, happily destroyed other people if they felt it was the right thing to do, and had no real chain of command. They had their own, literal army that wasn't commanded by anyone in the Republic organization at all. 

Not only were they basically a dictatorial vigilante squad, they weren't even benevolent.

I really wish that they went into that more. Anakin being downright pissed off at Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan for abandoning his mother should have been an easy, righteous way to give sympathy to his going to the Dark Side. Anakin being pissed off about Naboo would be another example. Him not getting a shot on the council because he was too close to the Republic leader is another example - oh, it's bad that he's actually on speaking terms with the democratically-elected politicians that rule the galaxy? Please.

[ab aeterno]

9 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

The prequels really could have been amazing if they had focused a bit more on showing how shitty the Jedi really were. They did it at times, but it always felt accidental. Stover's version of Revenge of the Sith got a lot closer. But yeah - the Jedi flat-out sucked. They had no oversight, no moral code but their own, happily destroyed other people if they felt it was the right thing to do, and had no real chain of command. They had their own, literal army that wasn't commanded by anyone in the Republic organization at all. 

Not only were they basically a dictatorial vigilante squad, they weren't even benevolent.

I really wish that they went into that more. Anakin being downright pissed off at Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan for abandoning his mother should have been an easy, righteous way to give sympathy to his going to the Dark Side. Anakin being pissed off about Naboo would be another example. Him not getting a shot on the council because he was too close to the Republic leader is another example - oh, it's bad that he's actually on speaking terms with the democratically-elected politicians that rule the galaxy? Please.

You're starting to sound like a Sith.

[Rhom]

10 minutes ago, ab aeterno said:

You're starting to sound like a Sith.

From my perspective Kalbear is evil.