Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

[Voice]

10 minutes ago, nanother said:

@Voice, I think you're arguing against things I've never said. What I did say, and still maintain, is that there was likely a softer, less rational side of Lyanna that made her susceptible to deception (deceiving herself or letting herself be deceived, see blue flowers), despite the 'steel' we have been shown so far. That might also have conflicted with (or even overcome) her convictions - Martin does hold the belief that 'the only thing worth writing about is the human heart in conflict with itself' - but that's another matter.

Good point about the pause possibly undermining the substantive nature of the 'fondness'. In any case, it does not undermine the overall importance of that information. I very much doubt Ned was remembering an amusing adventure Lyanna had when he said that.

Yup. I agree with everything you state here.

My point is simply that the wolf-blooded, Stark Maiden Archetype, which Ned associates with both Arya and Lyanna, is one which allows for a fondness of flowers. And, rather than see the she-wolf's convictions dulled by said flowers, they might be seen as exemplifying a wolf-blooded wildness (Arya, Lyanna, Shawn in Bitterblooms, Lyanna in A Song for Lya).

In my opinion, this interpretation fits Ned's characterization better than the time Sansa swooned at Loras' rose. If anything, Loras  Sansa should be a clue that such gestures might be far less meaningful than some assume.

So, twas only responding to the to the arguments raised in your initial tag (below). I have no opinion on the strikeout text. I believe you were directing that part toward @Sly Wren.

 

5 hours ago, nanother said:

@Sly Wren and @Voice@Sly Wren: OK, so the flower thing wasn't the best example - that something people tend to do regardless of the deceased person's fondness for flowers (actually, do they in Westeros? anyway, it's hard to forget about IRL customs in this scenario). The point I was trying to make is that, just because there was that one scene which can kind of fit the 'fond of flowers' description, it's not exactly the first thing one would come up when trying to describe Arya's character. In fact, as far as I'm concerned, it'd be very far down the list, if I'd think of phrasing it that way at all. I think in your quest to strip Lyanna from any romantic feelings, you might be somewhat overstating the importance of this scene. That song Arya half-heard is a nice catch, though. But even then I don't see Lyanna turning out to have the exact same personality as Arya.

 

[Kingmonkey]

7 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Ah.  No... that's more or less what I thought the discussion was about. And still, I disagree with you. Not saying Lyanna's statement is a problem for RLJ necessarily... but to the extent it applies to Robert, then yes - it would also apply to Rhaegar. 

One more time.

Quote

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."

Lyanna's complaint: "Robert will never keep to one bed." (note the word "never". This is important. She is not complaining about the past, she's concerned with the future).

Lyanna's example: "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.

Ned's counter: What happened before doesn't matter, Robert will love Lyanna with all his heart.

Lyanna's response: Love cannot change a man's nature.

Robert will never keep to one bed. It is his nature to bed-hop, and love will not change that. This is all entirely straightforwards.

So, for this to apply to Rhaegar, we must be able to replace Robert with Rhaegar in the initial complaint: "Rhaegar will never keep to one bed." There is no reason to believe that Lyanna would think this, and every reason to believe that she would not.

Robert is the kind of man who frequents brothels. Rhaegar is not. 

The fact that Rhaegar would have had to abandon/cheat on Elia to get it on with Lyanna does not imply that he would then abandon/cheat on Lyanna. Assuming the contrary is simply a complete non-sequitur.  Someone who moves house once in their lives is certainly no nomad. Someone who leaves their wife for another woman does not necessarily become a serial adulterer. People can do something once without it being reasonable to suggest that they can never stop.

Indeed, the fact that Robert has a daughter in the Vale does not imply that he would cheat on Lyanna. It's his nature that implies that. Robert the man-whore, with sixteen bastards scattered across Westeros, the man of enormous appetites who wanted to shag everything that looked like it might be female. 

Robert and Rhaegar are drawn as being almost mirror opposites in nature. I find it bizarre that people are arguing that Lyanna would consider them to have the same nature.

7 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

I do think we agree on that point, for the most part. The distinction I'd make is that while "a single act does not a nature make," it may be the case that "a single act does a nature unmake."

But it isn't. For example, it is certainly not Ned's nature to visit brothels, but he does so. It's perfectly reasonable for someone to do something once that is not in their nature to do. A man who's nature is pacific might be provoked to violence in extremis. An man who's nature is honesty might believe it's possible to tell a lie that is not without honour.

7 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Pointed, perhaps, in its own context. Not sure it necessarily works the same way in this discussion.  For one thing, Aemon's understanding of marriage and the fathering of children may be quite different from either Robert's or Rhaegar's. Or Lyanna's, for that matter.

Necessarily? Of course not. All is speculation. However Aemon's understanding doesn't really have to be considered here, only the author's intent. Was this statement of Aemon's a nod to the reader that Lyanna and Rhaegar abandoned duty for the sake of love?

It's certainly possible, particularly when we consider who's mouth GRRM put the words into, and who's ears they were intended for.

7 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Perhaps Rhaegar, too, successfully concealed his madness as a youth... but in the process was driven to dangerous, nonsensical behaviors and an early death. 

We certainly shouldn't exclude the possibility. Let's remember that Aerys was highly regarded in his youth. Let's not forget Rhaegar's great-grandfather either. Seemed like such a nice chap until he got too obsessed with prophecy and everything went horribly wrong at Summerhal, on the day Rhaegar was born. 

[Kingmonkey]

1 hour ago, Voice said:

Which undermines the substantive nature of the fondness, does it not?

Possibly, but in that case why would Ned say it right after mentioning that he brings her flowers?

Another possibility:

"I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was fond of blue roses… fond of flowers."   

[Voice]

46 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

No, it was Rhaegar. That's canon.

Then Rhaegar changed his mind.

People can change their minds. Rhaegar changed his mind about the identity of tptwp when new information presented itself, and decided it was Aegon, not himself. We know that for a fact. So why should we rule out him changing his mind again?

Because Aemon would have likely known. While I appreciate your point, it is a bit misleading.

The belief that Rhaegar was tptwp initially belonged to Maester Aemon. Aemon presented his rationalizations for that belief, and Rhaegar eventually came to share it.

It wasn't like Rhaegar had always believed he was tptwp, and then changed his mind. It seems more likely to me that Rhaegar was persuaded that Aegon was tptwp based upon evidence.

And, Rhaegar made his feelings on the matter known to Aemon. Quote:

On Braavos, it had seemed possible that Aemon might recover. Xhondo's talk of dragons had almost seemed to restore the old man to himself. That night he ate every bite Sam put before him. "No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it." Just talking of her seemed to make him stronger. "I must go to her. I must. Would that I was even ten years younger."

/quote

Rhaegar never told Aemon he doubted Aegon was tptwp. And it isn't like Rhaegar had a lot of time to change his mind. Rhaegar would soon die.

And if the identification of promised princes is that inexact of a science, it makes the abduction and impregnation of Lyanna all the more reckless and dastardly.

That isn't prophecy and duty. That's gambling addiction.

 

46 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

Possibly Rhaegar did want a daughter rather than another son, but you do know they do come from the same place, right? Or you think Rhaegar would have insisted on Jon being aborted once they'd had the ultrasound?

Now you're finally making sense! 

If Rhaegar was willing to sequester a 14 year old girl long enough to get her pregnant, I wouldn't put child sacrifice past him.

A Targs gonna Targ, KM. 

 

46 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting the possibility that Rhaegar believed that tptwp's song was the song of ice and fire, and that he came to believe that meant a child born from both Stark and Targaryen bloodlines.

Hmm. I must have missed that page too. In my book it says nothing of the tptwp's genetic requirements...it talks about salt and smoke and bleeding stars. I mean, the wise maester doesn't even think it matters if it's a boy or a girl.

Aemon comes to believe gender in fact doesn't matter, and that "the dragons prove it." If a penis isn't on the promised prince checklist, why would Stark ancestry be?

And again, if Rhaegar had changed his mind about Aegon, it seems likely that he would have taken the time to confide in Aemon. Alternative scenarios become all the more odd considering the actions required in order to make R+L=J happen. One would think Rhaegar would consult the family lawyer-doctor if he changed his mind about Aegon being tptwp and had begun to wonder if he might instead need a Stark teenager to make the prophecy work...

I mean, Aemon is like The Guy to ask about something like that.

 

46 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

Sansa was betrothed to Joffrey, who had Sansa's dad killed. Of course she'd be pissed. How does that relate to the Rhaegar situation? It was Aerys, not Rhaegar, who killed Rickard. They are different people. Rhaegar was politically opposed to Aerys and does not seem to have approved of him at all. Yes, they were related. So?

Oberyn Martell doesn't blame Tyrion for Elia's death, does he?

Tyrion wasn't responsible for Ned's or Robb's death.

But that did little to acquit him in Sansa's eyes.

And if Lyanna was anything like Arya, she would be more likely to have added Targaryens to her kill list than to willingly incubate their spawn. Just sayin. This is the girl who became violent when squires weren't giving a Crannogman his due respect. That she would fall in love with the son of the man roasting her family members is a bit of a stretch. And even that is being too generous, imo.

Their houses were at war, and this isn't fair Verona.

 

46 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

I don't have a version. I've painted several options, all of which fulfil the criteria for making Lyanna's complaint about Robert irrelevant. How about the option where Rhaegar falls deeply in love, for the first time in his life, with Lyanna? Is that more Gregor Clegane or more David Koresh?

A married 22 year old man with two children, falling in love for "the first time" with a 14 year old girl?

Definitely David Koresh.

 

46 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

You make the mistake of thinking that Rhaegar loving Lyanna and Rhaegar believing Lyanna's child to be tptwp are incompatible.

No I don't. I don't find those to be incompatible circumstances at all.

That sounds way overly speculative, and more like a romance novel than this series, but those do not sound at all incompatible to me.

 

46 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

You make the mistake of thinking that someone doing evil for personal gain and someone doing what they believe to be a necessary evil to save the world are the same thing. 

No I don't. I'm merely pointing out that the picture you are painting contains some less than "dutiful" elements.

And Rhaegar never had any way of knowing that the prince that was promised can or would save the world. Considering they have a song, and not an adamantium skull, they are quite vulnerable creatures. Quote:

 

Ser Jorah's frown deepened until his eyebrows came together. "Prince Rhaegar played such a harp," he conceded. "You saw him?"

She nodded. "There was a woman in a bed with a babe at her breast. My brother said the babe was the prince that was promised and told her to name him Aegon."

"Prince Aegon was Rhaegar's heir by Elia of Dorne," Ser Jorah said. "But if he was this prince that was promised, the promise was broken along with his skull when the Lannisters dashed his head against a wall."

 

/quote

So again, it boils down not to duty, for me, but a self-absorbed, quasi-polygamous gambling addiction justified by zealotry. And, rather than be given any evidence that Lyanna would enjoy such games, we are given repeated examples that she did not.

 

46 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

You make the mistake of assuming that Ned must have had actual knowledge of Rhaegar's motivations, rather than working on the same basis of rumour and guesswork everyone else seems to have.

Actually, no. I don't care about Rhaegar's motivations, because Ned doesn't.

What I care about is Lyanna's convictions and decisions. Of those, yes, I think Ned had actual knowledge.

 

46 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

I agree. However, then Rhaegar found out that Elia couldn't have any more children.

Glad we agree. We're overdue for a clink! 

And rather than waste time with another risky pregnancy, he quickly found a woman who could handle the strains of childbirth...

Oh wait...
 

46 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

Should a red comet be seen in the skies on the night  tptwp is conceived?

Well, yes, according to Rhaegar...

He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet.

46 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

If so, how did Rhaeger ever mistake himself as tptwp?

Again, it wasn't Rhaegar's mistake to make, it was Aemon's...

"No one ever looked for a girl," he said. "It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought . . . the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King's Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it."

 

Compounded by unreliable translations.

 

46 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

Who says Ned knew what was going on?

Feel free to dismiss any incongruous text. I feel compelled to include it.

After all, it comes from the person who last spoke to Lyanna, her "dearest Ned," during her most dire hour.

If Ned took Jon from her, one would think the baby's origin would be a topic of conversation.

 

46 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

Except he doesn't. Rhaegar is pretty much drawn as a diametrical opposite to Rhaegar. The thing that Lyanna complains about in Robert is specifically denied as a trait of Rhaegar's.

"Rhaegar is pretty much drawn as a diametrical opposite to Rhaegar"

??

Kidding, I understood what you meant. And I can also understand why you would get confused between Rhaegar and Robert. If R+L=J, they both sought to add Lyanna's bed to their number, and sired a bastard or two along the way.

Sure, Rhaegar may not have had as much luck with the ladies as Robert, but they do seem to have shared queer tastes for child-women.

Surely you are not claiming either man kept to one bed while siring children from multiple women.

 

46 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

No.

If Rhaegar did what he did out of a belief that he had to for the sake of the realm, then it's not misogynistic because it's not intended to hurt Lyanna.

Hiding a fourteen year old girl away from her family for two years and getting her pregnant because of a prophecy isn't misogynistic?

We will have to agree to disagree.

You will have to forgive me if I find his "first true love" or a "duty for the realm" as perverse and politically inept excuses for such acts.

And again, they neglect Lyanna's own character and convictions. But, I guess Rhaegar would have had to neglect them as well, if Jon is his son.

And more than all of that, it is completely and utterly misogynistic to abandon his sick wife for the purpose of fucking a teenager, regardless of how "dutiful" or "in love" he was.

Just sayin.

 

46 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

If Rhaegar did what he did out of love for Lyanna, then it's not misogynistic because it's not intended to hurt Lyanna.

There you go again. For someone who doesn't have a "version" of Rhaegar, it sure seems like you have a version of Rhaegar.

And that's fine. I have one too.

If R+L=J, it is completely and utterly misogynistic to abandon his sick wife for the purpose of secretly fucking a teenager, regardless of how "dutiful" or "in love" he was with the child-woman.

Just sayin.

That's creepy. Like pedo creepy. That moment all the smiles died? Yeah, I would be pissed too if some politician sent my 13-14 year old daughter some flowers.

That's what warhammers are for.

 

46 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

As far as I'm aware, nobody is proposing here that Rhaegar intended for Lyanna to die.

I hope not. Still, it seems an odd choice if Lyanna's life/health was of even minimal priority. Why not hide away a full-grown woman for the purposes of procreation?

 

11 minutes ago, Kingmonkey said:

Possibly, but in that case why would Ned say it right after mentioning that he brings her flowers?

Another possibility:

"I bring her flowers when I can," he said. "Lyanna was fond of blue roses… fond of flowers."   

Makes sense to me.

I have no issue with the idea that Lyanna liked blue roses. They would have reminded her of home, no?

A fitting and cruel gesture if planning to remove her from that home, but to each his own interp.  

[WeaselPie]

On 9/18/2016 at 8:40 PM, nanother said:

I seem to recall Ran saying that the False Spring stuff was written by Martin himself

My take on this is that GRRM wanted to be in charge of the subterfuge without revealing to Ran and Linda more than they needed to know.

 

[Kingmonkey]

Huh. I thought I'd already sent this reply, but I don't see it, and it's still sitting in the reply box, so...

13 hours ago, Voice said:

The belief that Rhaegar was tptwp initially belonged to Maester Aemon. Aemon presented his rationalizations for that belief, and Rhaegar eventually came to share it.

"Rhaegar, I thought ... He shared my belief when he was young..."

...does not specify who believed it first, who presented rationalisations to whom, and whether there was any "eventually" involved. 

Quote

And, Rhaegar made his feelings on the matter known to Aemon.

...snip...

Rhaegar never told Aemon he doubted Aegon was tptwp. And it isn't like Rhaegar had a lot of time to change his mind. Rhaegar would soon die.

Wait, you're concerned that Rhaegar didn't have much time to change his mind, but if he did somehow manage to fit changing his mind in somewhere, he would have had time to go chat to Aemon about it? Does not compute!

Rhaegar went off on some mysterious journey, and on his return kidnapped Lyanna. Maybe he found out some brand new evidence on that mysterious journey of his.

 

Quote

And if the identification of promised princes is that inexact of a science, it makes the abduction and impregnation of Lyanna all the more reckless and dastardly.

That isn't prophecy and duty. That's gambling addiction.

Well to be fair it might be that his brand new evidence was a whole lot more specific than the stuff he'd been basing this off before. On the other hand, let's face it, he wouldn't be doing anything his great grandfather didn't. Prophecies may have a tendency to kick you in the balls, but they seem to be a bit of a Targ thing.

So, "prophecy and duty" aren't exactly contrary to a gambling addiction, are they? We can easily imagine a Rhaegar who was so convinced by prophecy that he was willing to take huge risks to try to fulfil it, because he believed it was his duty to fulfil it. 

Quote

If Rhaegar was willing to sequester a 14 year old girl long enough to get her pregnant, I wouldn't put child sacrifice past him.

Ah but if he was going for child sacrifice, he probably wanted a boy after all. And might have planned to sacrifice his own life, too.

We really don't know what Rhaegar was up to, do we? 

Quote

Hmm. I must have missed that page too. In my book it says nothing of the tptwp's genetic requirements...it talks about salt and smoke and bleeding stars. I mean, the wise maester doesn't even think it matters if it's a boy or a girl.

Something Rhaegar read lead him to believe that being a soldier was a requirement for tptwp. On discovering that, he started training in arms. Yet we don't actually know what it was that Rhaegar read to make him believe that, only that he did. It's hardly a stretch to speculate that there may have been other things that Rhaegar knew (or thought he knew) about the requirements for tptwp which have not been reported either. 

Quote

Aemon comes to believe gender in fact doesn't matter, and that "the dragons prove it." If a penis isn't on the promised prince checklist, why would Stark ancestry be?

Perhaps because tptwp is the child of the great wolf and the man of fire, whatever that means. 

For example. 

Quote

Tyrion wasn't responsible for Ned's or Robb's death.

But that did little to acquit him in Sansa's eyes.

Tyrion is an ugly runt who Sansa was forced to marry. He was one of the hated Lannisters who she had been brought up to think of as the bad guys her entire life. That kind of adds to things.

But hey, even if I accept that, it's just a counter-example to the one I gave, and that doesn't serve the purpose of showing that Lyanna would have any problem with Rhaegar. If there are examples that show both possibilities, then at best it shows that she *might* have. 

Well yeah. She might have.

Or not.

One or the other.

Quote

Their houses were at war, and this isn't fair Verona.

True, true. Yeah. You're right, I concede. I mean that would be like Robb Stark falling in love with a Westerling girl. 

Quote

No I don't. I'm merely pointing out that the picture you are painting contains some less than "dutiful" elements.

Dude, you just compared Ned's feelings about Jorah selling people into slavery with Ned's attitude towards Rhaegar. That's what I was responding to.

Did Rhaegar sell Lyanna into slavery? Well it would seem not, or Ned would be very pissed with her. I'm with you on that.

Was Jorah in love with those slaves? Er. I'm going to say probably not. Did he run away with them to his secret love nest and give them flowers? Definitely not. Can you say the same about Rhaegar and Lyanna? Nope.

There's no reason to think these two situations are comparable. 

Quote

And Rhaegar never had any way of knowing that the prince that was promised can or would save the world. Considering they have a song, and not an adamantium skull, they are quite vulnerable creatures. Quote:

How do you know what Rhaegar did or didn't know, or believe he knew?

Given the entire concept of tptwp is that it's some guy who's going to save the world, I'm going to go with Rhaegar believed that the ptwp (promised to save the world, that is) was going to save the world.

"You are he who must stand against the Other. The one whose coming was prophesied five thousand years ago. The red comet was your herald. You are the prince that was promised, and if you fail the world fails with you."

That's his JOB.

Quote

And rather than waste time with another risky pregnancy, he quickly found a woman who could handle the strains of childbirth...

Oh wait...

Yeah, damn Rhaegar for not being able to see the future. What's wrong with him?

Quote

Again, it wasn't Rhaegar's mistake to make, it was Aemon's...

Aside from the point I already made that you don't know it was Aemon's first, so what? Rhaegar believed it. Wherever the idea originated, it was Rhaegar's mistake as well as Aemon's. Then he didn't believe it. Some other sign came along that pointed to someone else. What makes it impossible that happened a second time?

Quote

If Ned took Jon from her, one would think the baby's origin would be a topic of conversation.

Of course. However that doesn't mean he knew what was going on in Rhaegar's head. It doesn't even mean he had the whole of Lyanna's version of the story. She may not have had time to go into much detail. 

Quote

Kidding, I understood what you meant. And I can also understand why you would get confused between Rhaegar and Robert. If R+L=J, they both sought to add Lyanna's bed to their number, and sired a bastard or two along the way.

Or sixteen. 'cos that's how many bastards Robert sired. Of course that doesn't sound nearly as similar to Rhaegar's putative "one" as the way you worded it, does it?

We can also add "everything else" to the list of things that they're unalike in.

Rhaegar and Robert are fundamentally unalike. The one thing they have in common, the thing that drives them on a collision course that changed the world, was Lyanna. The way they are presented to us in the books is as virtually direct opposites. Thoughtful, bookish, morose Rhaegar vs. impetuous, martial, laughing Robert.  Finesse vs. brute force. Singing sad songs to the maidens rather than drinking his mates under the table. Wanting to wander in solitude and study ancient manuscripts vs. wanting to wander around shagging and fighting his way across the world. Man who shags everything that he can get his hands on vs. man who wouldn't frequent brothels. 

This isn't accidental. Rivals in love, rivals for the throne, opposites in nature.

Yet if Lyanna objected to Robert's nature, she must necessarily have objected to Rhaegar's nature, despite the fact that his nature is so utterly different to Robert's nature. Well if you buy that one, maybe I should be trying to sell you a bridge.

Quote

Surely you are not claiming either man kept to one bed while siring children from multiple women.

No. I'm recognising the simple fact that Lyanna complained about men who would NEVER keep to one bed, not that she demanded a virgin.

Quote

Hiding a fourteen year old girl away from her family for two years and getting her pregnant because of a prophecy isn't misogynistic?

If she was good with that, then no. It's not. If you think it is, you're using the wrong word. 

How would hiding out with your lover be misogyny?

Quote

And more than all of that, it is completely and utterly misogynistic to abandon his sick wife for the purpose of fucking a teenager, regardless of how "dutiful" or "in love" he was.

Again, no. That might (but not necessarily) be the case if he was doing it solely to hurt Elia (or Elia and Lyanna). It's not misogynistic to fall in love with another woman and leave your wife for her. Even if your wife isn't very well. It may be a dick move, but it's not misogynistic. 

Quote

There you go again. For someone who doesn't have a "version" of Rhaegar, it sure seems like you have a version of Rhaegar.

I did prefix that statement with the word "If". 

Quote

That's creepy. Like pedo creepy. That moment all the smiles died? Yeah, I would be pissed too if some politician sent my 13-14 year old daughter some flowers.

But not if he sent your 12 year old daughter some flowers, like Loras did?

Paedo creepy is par for the course in Westeros. They think it's all good once a girl starts menstruating. 

Quote

I have no issue with the idea that Lyanna liked blue roses. They would have reminded her of home, no?

A fitting and cruel gesture if planning to remove her from that home, but to each his own interp.  

A fitting gesture if he planned on charming her and didn't know that there was some rather more awkward symbolism attached to them in Stark circles, too. Or perhaps if he did know that symbolism, and knew she rather liked the idea of being stolen away by him and wanted to send a message to her that he was up for it. Or maybe that was going to be the crown anyway, and it was merely ironic that Lyanna got it. 

We don't know yet, which is what makes it fun speculating. When it comes to what Rhaegar's reasoning behind the blue roses was, I'm more than happy to  on "each to his own interpretation", 'cos that's all we have!

[Ygrain]

Did I miss anything special in those five or so pages? 'Cause it seems that it all goes in the good ol' circles of "lalala, not listening".

Even the one about Rhaegar Pedophilyen is old. 

[WSmith84]

34 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Did I miss anything special in those five or so pages? 'Cause it seems that it all goes in the good ol' circles of "lalala, not listening".

Even the one about Rhaegar Pedophilyen is old. 

That last bit is especially weird, given that we know Robert had a bastard with a girl so young Ned dare not ask her age. Lyanna would have been 15-16 at the time of her disappearance, no? Not great, but hardly out of the norm for their world.

[wolfmaid7]

19 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

That last bit is especially weird, given that we know Robert had a bastard with a girl so young Ned dare not ask her age. Lyanna would have been 15-16 at the time of her disappearance, no? Not great, but hardly out of the norm for their world.

Not weird for Robert certainly.And Ned"s reaction to that is noteworthy.Rhaegar was how much older than Robert and Ned? I would expect some negativity if not saying directly not.

So it seems he has a problem with Robert's age compared to the girl in the brothal.A thought he also echoed when he told Robert later about Barra rebuffing him for the girl's age.

Also interesting is the visual....Young girl who evoked memory of Lyanna holding Robert's bastard...Just saying.

[WSmith84]

39 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Not weird for Robert certainly.And Ned"s reaction to that is noteworthy.Rhaegar was how much older than Robert and Ned? I would expect some negativity if not saying directly not.

So it seems he has a problem with Robert's age compared to the girl in the brothal.A thought he also echoed when he told Robert later about Barra rebuffing him for the girl's age.

Also interesting is the visual....Young girl who evoked memory of Lyanna holding Robert's bastard...Just saying.

I was saying it's weird that people want to slander Rhaegar when Robert does the same thing, is all.

Rhaegar was 24 when he died, so 22-24 when he ran off with Lyanna (14-16). Robert was 35-36 when he slept with Barra's mother. I don't think either is great, but considering the greater age difference and power difference between Robert and Barra's mother I'd say that one is more troubling (provided Rhaegar and Lyanna was a willing thing).

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, WSmith84 said:

That last bit is especially weird, given that we know Robert had a bastard with a girl so young Ned dare not ask her age. Lyanna would have been 15-16 at the time of her disappearance, no? Not great, but hardly out of the norm for their world.

Where I live, 15 is the age of consent, so it wouldn't be considered particularly icky even in RL. 

Personally, I find Walder Frey's last marriage way more creepy.

[WSmith84]

Just now, Ygrain said:

Where I live, 15 is the age of consent, so it wouldn't be considered particularly icky even in RL. 

Personally, I find Walder Frey's last marriage way more creepy.

It's 16 in my home country too, so it's not so much the age that bothers me. The power imbalance, wife and two kids are bigger issues for me. Ditto for Bob.

[wolfmaid7]

12 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

I was saying it's weird that people want to slander Rhaegar when Robert does the same thing, is all.

Rhaegar was 24 when he died, so 22-24 when he ran off with Lyanna (14-16). Robert was 35-36 when he slept with Barra's mother. I don't think either is great, but considering the greater age difference and power difference between Robert and Barra's mother I'd say that one is more troubling (provided Rhaegar and Lyanna was a willing thing).

Ohhhh that..I don't think nothing of the age being wrong except the power differential.

And a correction ...It has yet to be canon that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna.

[WSmith84]

11 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Ohhhh that..I don't think nothing of the age being wrong except the power differential.

And a correction ...It has yet to be canon that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna.

Yes, I was assuming they ran off for the purposes of the comparison.

[JNR]

20 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Robert is the kind of man who frequents brothels. Rhaegar is not....

Indeed, the fact that Robert has a daughter in the Vale does not imply that he would cheat on Lyanna. It's his nature that implies that. Robert the man-whore, with sixteen bastards scattered across Westeros, the man of enormous appetites who wanted to shag everything that looked like it might be female. 

Once more...

Lyanna did not know that Robert was the kind of man who frequents brothels.  If you think she did know that, prove it.

Similarly, Lyanna did not know that he was a "man-whore with sixteen bastards scattered across Westeros" -- because, of course, he wasn't.   If you think she did know that, prove it.

It's my opinion that you are conflating Robert of AGOT with Robert at that time, prior to the Rebellion, more than a decade earlier. 

You are, in short, assuming Lyanna to have been clairvoyant about Robert's future behavior, in the manner of the Ghost of High Heart, Jojen, or similar.

What she knew of Robert, and said, was that he was a unmarried man who had a bastard in the Vale.

What she knew of Rhaegar was that he was a married man who had a child already, and that his marriage had led to political and diplomatic consequences that should not be threatened under any circumstances. 

Which is exactly why "all smiles died" -- hers too -- at Harrenhal, when Rhaegar seemed to have lost his mind in naming her QoLaB.

Now, if you are seriously proposing that on this basis, Rhaegar would somehow have looked morally superior compared to Robert... somehow such a paragon of honorable duty that she would actually agree to his plan to run away to ignore the political consequences, elope, marry (a second time?), retire to an isolated location, have sex, etc.

...well, I wouldn't be at all surprised. 

It's arguments of this type that are going to be quoted, to considerable laughter, when TWOW is out.

[SFDanny]

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

And a correction ...It has yet to be canon that Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna.

Of course it does. You may think the books are lying, but the books unequivocally tell us Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna. Truth does not equal canon, or vice versa.

[The Ned's Little Girl]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Lyanna did not know that Robert was the kind of man who frequents brothels.  If you think she did know that, prove it.

Similarly, Lyanna did not know that he was a "man-whore with sixteen bastards scattered across Westeros" -- because, of course, he wasn't.   If you think she did know that, prove it.

She said, "Robert will never keep to one bed." That's what she knew.

 

1 hour ago, JNR said:

What she knew of Rhaegar was that he was a married man who had a child already, and that his marriage had led to political and diplomatic consequences that should not be threatened under any circumstances. 

I can agree that Lyanna knew the first part of this sentence.

As a child of the nobility, of course she would be familiar with the idea of dynastic alliances accomplished through marriages. But, it's not clear whether she accepted those goals as ones worthy of pursuing. Judging by her behavior if she ran off with Rhaegar, she may have held the idea that political and diplomatic considerations didn't necessarily have to apply to her, nor was she bound to abide by them. Otherwise she would have stayed put and married Robert like an obedient daughter and just made the best of it.

There's also the possibility that there were reasons (in their view) which necessitated overriding the societal ramifications of their actions. It's not clear at this point what those reasons are, if they exist, but "saving the world" would be a compelling one.

 

1 hour ago, JNR said:

Now, if you are seriously proposing that on this basis, Rhaegar would somehow have looked morally superior compared to Robert... somehow such a paragon of honorable duty that she would actually agree to his plan to run away to ignore the political consequences, elope, marry (a second time?), retire to an isolated location, have sex, etc.

I know @Kingmonkey is perfectly capable of speaking for himself, but I don't think his argument was that Rhaegar was "morally superior" to Robert. Just that Rhaegar was not the same as Robert. He had a different nature than Robert's nature.

Nor did KM characterize Rhaegar as "such a paragon of honorable duty". I believe your sarcasm is somewhat misplaced.

 

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, SFDanny said:

Of course it does. You may think the books are lying, but the books unequivocally tell us Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna. Truth does not equal canon, or vice versa.

Nooooo.It is canon some characters "believe" Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna.Just as its canon some believe Rhaegar kidnapped and raped her.

[Wall Flower]

4 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

I was saying it's weird that people want to slander Rhaegar when Robert does the same thing, is all.

Rhaegar was 24 when he died, so 22-24 when he ran off with Lyanna (14-16). Robert was 35-36 when he slept with Barra's mother. I don't think either is great, but considering the greater age difference and power difference between Robert and Barra's mother I'd say that one is more troubling (provided Rhaegar and Lyanna was a willing thing).

By Ned's estimation, Barra's mother was a year younger than Lyanna when she gave birth and, from a modern perspective, there is something decidedly disturbing about Ned's reflection that the best brothels could always procure a virgin for a wealthy client. Not to mention, the whole premise of this thread is that Robert did have sex with 14 year old Lyanna at Harrenhall. Although, I suspect that Robert didn't actually get to enjoy the particular virgin that Rickard Stark was procuring for him.

I have to admit, though, that I would be a lot more comfortable if George had aged some of these really young characters up a few years - not just for the Lyanna/Rhaegar dynamic but Dany/Drogo (which has other issues as well) and San/San.

 

[wolfmaid7]

36 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

By Ned's estimation, Barra's mother was a year younger than Lyanna when she gave birth and, from a modern perspective, there is something decidedly disturbing about Ned's reflection that the best brothels could always procure a virgin for a wealthy client. Not to mention, the whole premise of this thread is that Robert did have sex with 14 year old Lyanna at Harrenhall. Although, I suspect that Robert didn't actually get to enjoy the particular virgin that Rickard Stark was procuring for him.

I have to admit, though, that I would be a lot more comfortable if George had aged some of these really young characters up a few years - not just for the Lyanna/Rhaegar dynamic but Dany/Drogo (which has other issues as well) and San/San.

Not entirely true, the premise of some is that he did not all;to be fair to those that have different  views. I am 100% sure Robert would have no problems having sex with a 14yr old girl at any age he might be.