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Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3


wolfmaid7

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12 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Still hashing and rehashing what you think you have mined from AGOT, while completely failing to understand what it means that further books provide zero material for your theory - in fact, that they provide quite the contrary. The only mention of Robert and Lyanna at the same time and place?  He's ignoring her and she is sniffing over another man's song. His behaviour while she is missing? Whoring his usual way. Mentions of them together? Nada. Not even any bits of info that would place Lyanna in the Vale, even though we have had a Vale PoV for a while. 

Damn, there's not even much about Robert, who has been dead for much shorter time than Rhaegar. 

Do you really believe that GRRM planted all those hints you think you have found in the first book, only to never elaborate and develop on them in the next four books? Come on.

Yes Ygrain and only time will tell if what "I" think is true or not, of that i am danm sure.As for your assertion that further books provide zero evidence...well that your belief not mine.What i can't stand and it is pet peeve is people who display dishonesty in the form of using points in favor of their arguement and not extending that to others.And further,not accurately posting what someone said. If you forgot Gingo Biloba will do the trick.In the mean let me reiterate....I don't believe the times people appear on pages together can be used as a determinant for if and how many times they were together.

If so Ned only saw Lyanna (3) times in their entire lives we know that isn't true. Ned's emotion,how he addressed Lyanna how she addressed him tells us how close they were.So i am telling you again Robert's behavior and language,Ned's account,how he spoke about them,how he described certain situations,the language he used tell us what kind of relationship they had.That's he subtle clues that has gone over your head.

Over and over again,GRRM has told us things aren't always as they seem and i'm 100% sure when this mystery and the other mysteries in this story gets revealed;the Devil will be in the details.

It is also your perception,one that you "choose" to make that Robert ignored Lyanna.Did Lyanna grab you as the type to have anybody hanging all over her? She was hanging out having a good time so was Robert.They didn't need to be up in each other to indicate love.Next,Rhaegar wasn't playing a song "for" Lyanna he was doing what he always did per JonCon.At gatherings like these, he'd play his harp and women would get all teary eyed.Her reaction was no different than all the other women that cried when Rhaegar played his harp.Didn't mean she was full on Sansa with anime eyes.

Ygrain, i choose to believe you are feinting being glib for what you believe is some debate advantage but it isn't Every book has mentioned Robert.He and Lyanna as a combo has been very well established by himself as well as insiders and outsiders.

Robert who beside Ned has appeared in more Jon Snow chapters than any other prospect for the expressed purpose of characters talking to Jon about him.Not just mentions but giving Jon important info.

Robert  has more connection to Jon than Rhaegar who has none at all,at all.Only book one? GRRM has been establishing connections in every book.i.e.

"A blaze of banners flew above them. The wind was whipping them too wildly for Jon to see the sigils, but he glimpsed a seahorse, a field of birds, a ring of flowers. And yellow, so much yellow, yellow banners with a red device, whose arms were those? East and north and northeast, he saw bands of wildlings trying to stand and fight, but the attackers rode right over them. The free folk still had the numbers, but the attackers had steel armor and heavy horses. in the thickest part of the fray, Jon saw Mance standing tall in his stirrups. His red-and-black cloak and raven-winged helm made him easy to pick out. He had his sword raised and men were rallying to him when a wedge of knights smashed into them with lance and sword and longaxe. Mance’s mare went up on her hind legs, kicking, and a spear took her through the breast. Then the steel tide washed over him. It’s done, Jon thought, they’re breaking. The wildlings were running, throwing down their weapons, Hornfoot men and cave dwellers and Therns in bronze scales, they were running. Mance was gone, someone was waving Harma’s head on a pole, Tormund’s lines had broken. Only the giants on their mammoths were holding, hairy islands in a red steel sea. The fires were leaping from tent to tent and some of the tall pines were going up as well. And through the smoke another wedge of armored riders came, on barded horses. Floating above them were the largest banners yet, royal standards as big as sheets; a yellow one with long pointed tongues that showed a flaming heart, and another like a sheet of beaten gold, with a black stag prancing and rippling in the wind. Robert, Jon thought for one mad moment, remembering poor Owen, but when the trumpets blew again and the knights charged, the name they cried was “Stannis! Stannis! STANNIS!” Jon turned away, and went inside the tent Jon,ASOS..

Hope built upon what Ned had told him and then disappointment at it not being Robert .Ygrain...You come on.

18 hours ago, nanother said:

It seems to me that everyone else=Brandon (which I agree is odd, by far the most suspicious of the lot). And just because Lyanna's location is possibly known, she might still have been kidnapped or taken hostage, so I don't really see your point.

Not at all...Her location not being known or not isn't the case.If she was indeed missing.When was she missing and when did people know she was missing.This is the important part.If she was when was she and when did  people know.Putting aside the entire Kingdom.Let's add Robert and Ned to that group.

At the point in time when Robert killed Lyanna.Two things are true to him.He didn't know Lyanna was missing,or he thought she was dead because he sure didn't make a query about where she was.So the former is likely the case.At that point he didn't know she was missing.

Same goes for Ned. At the point in time when he left Robert to fight the rest of the war in the South.Given his internal monologue he didn't know she was missing,he knew she wasn't missing and was complicit in her disppearance,the rumor of Lyanna(whatever it was) had only to do with getting Brandon to react like he did at the tourney and all the fruits of that served as a cover for he death in the end.I favor the latter with a drizzle of Ned hiding his sister.

18 hours ago, nanother said:

FFS, just because he only mentioned his immediate destination in that sentence, it doesn't mean Lyanna wasn't on his mind at the time. You'll notice that he mentions Lyanna's death in the next sentence or so - do you think he just stumbled upon her while fighting his battles? Or was she with him all along, or where the heck are you proposing she was? Methinks, first he wrapped up the rebellion (which was kinda important, and might have been just the thing that cleared the way to Lyanna), then he went to find his sister. I really don't see what's so problematic about this, especially so early in the books.

Nanother he mentions Lyanna's death in that sentence yes,but at the time when this actually happened he had a goal and the goal was not to go find his sister and he could have if she was indeed missing(KL had fallen and the Loyalists were dropping their banners one by one) If she wasn't missing then he has nothing to worry about and he could go about his work at ease;you see what i mean.

As to where Lyanna might have been:

“Do you have no women here?” “Not at present,” said Narbert. “Those women who do visit come to us sick or hurt, or heavy with child. .............. “We have some modest cottages set aside for the women who visit us, be they noble ladies or common village girls,” said the Elder Brother. “They are not oft used, but we keep them clean and dry. Lady Brienne, would you allow me to show you the way.

If it is true that Lyanna went missing leagues near Harrenhall,she could have ended up on the Quiet Isle. Again,this is more than just if Lyanna was missing .I know she was missing but her being missing is a matter of perspective.

18 hours ago, nanother said:

I'm not the one explaining things with human stupidity, though. You're the one suggesting that whole effin' Westeros was stupid enough to just lap up the kidnapping story without a second thought. Including people who have no particular reason to, or should know better. Don't tell me Kevan Lannister doesn't know full well that the rebellion was NOT about R&R fighting over Lyanna. Or Barristan. Or any of the lords who paid any attention.

I'm saying the rest of Westeros was given a story afterwards because they had no reason to believe otherwise and they live in time where romanicism rules.Consider:

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When I died in the Battle of the Trident. I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name. I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a lord who decided to support the dragon rather than the stag. Had he decided elsewise, I might have been on the other side of the river."

So,another example of the mindset at the time for somepeople.This was rebellion and no one knew anything about Lyanna Stark being missing.Ok  see you are asking about what the Lords "knew" I'm saying they fell for the same story...At first this was about RR throwing in your lot with one side or the other without knowing why,or just capitalizing on a slight i.e. Tywin who sat out the entire war not answering the summons of either side until he was sure who would win.

Barristan in his internal monologue was reciting the same thing...Thousands of lives would have been spared if he had won the tourney and crwned Asharah.Kevan,the same thing had Rhaegar chosen Cersie she would have given him X amount of kids with this look.Cersie the same thing if Rhaegar had chosen her.

It all stems from one thing....What everyone thought Rhaegar's crowning of Lyanna at the tourney meant.To a lot of people at the Tourney it was romantic.

18 hours ago, nanother said:

LOL why would Aerys mention anything about Lyanna? You're quite right, the rebellion as a whole was about getting Aerys's ass off the throne, and that's all he needed to know. Why would he give a damn for Robert's personal motivations?

The only one I can think of as relevant is Jon Connington - he was close enough to Rhaegar that he might know if he was up to something WRT Lyanna (althogh not certain to) and that train of thought about Elia being unworthy would have been a good time to recall it if he did know. OTOH he also doesn't seem to doubt the story - so I guess he was not close enough to Rhaegar, or didn't know enough about his movements at that time, to know that he didn't do it. So that kinda works both ways.

Again,goes to nobody speaking about a kidnapping because no one knew because it was something created afterwards.

JonCon was close to Rhaegar and yet the woman he was pissed about being in Rhaegar's life was Elia.Being in love with Rhaegar as he was,one would expect that he'dbe pissed about a supposed relationship with Lyanna.But he mentions nothing about her.

18 hours ago, nanother said:

So, the individual soldiers didn't know or care what they were fighting for - that doesn't mean their Lords didn't know either. Of course, they weren't fighting for Lyanna, but even so, I'd expect that the supposed disappearance of their leader's betrothed is the kind of thing they'd pay attention to. So the story is embellished the love aspect exaggerated - that doesn't mean it's one big pile of BS.

But fine, let's say no-one said anything about Lyanna missing in particular. Still, Robert wanted Lyanna back, and swore to kill Rhaegar for what he did to Lyanna, and his hatred for Rhaegar was well known according to Tywin. But even if Rhaegar didn't know any of this, before that Brandon and Rickard got themselves and a few companions executed for 'plotting against Rhaegar' for some reason to do with Lyanna. I'd be really surprised if Rhaegar wouldn't have been aware of that much at least, and, if he had half a brain, he would have tried to make sense of it. Or are you suggesting he was going up against the rebellion without having the slightest clue about how it all started? Possible, but that would make him somewhat ... stupid.

 Ok let's take what you said there.......The Lords knew what was happening.....By leader here i assume you mean Robert.

Again let's look at Robert's behavior on the Trident......If he knew at that moment Lyanna was missing and Rhaegar was said to have done it.He wouldn't have killed him just then.So he hadn't known,and if he didn't his vassals didn't know either.

Robert was told the same singers song and Maesters tale and Ned has no reason to say anything else.

For all Rhaegar knew and from his point of view the plan to remove his father was enacted....He sat out the war and coincidentally so did Tywin, the same man who was cool with Aerys getting killed and seating Rhaegar on his father's throne.Rhaegar who seemed to be cool with letting his dad die when Tywin made this proposal in his presence.

So catalyst to this entire things was ensuring Brandon did what he did at the Tourney without anyone there to restrain him...Check.

That would force paranoid Aerys to do some mental gymnastic and the next thing he sends for Nedbert's heads.

Tywin and Rhaegar take a backseat and let the pawns play hopefully they'd kill eachother.Except Rhaegar probablly didn'r realize he was getting played as well.

I love Little finger's quote to Sansa about how to hadle enemies when playing the game of thrones.I like the mystery of  Arryn's murder because it shows us how elements having nothing to do with eachother can work together to bring about a wrong conclusion.

I don't think Rhaegar had anything to do with Lyanna's disappearence,but i believe the crowning,the secrets surrounding her death,the fact that Robert and Rhaegar ended up fighting eachother in the Trident created the perfect stew for singers and Maesters to create and recreate.

 

 

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37 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I don't believe the times people appear on pages together can be used as a determinant for if and how many times they were together.

Never failing not to grasp, right? 

They don't have to explicitely appear on  pages together. The problem is that we don't have even anyone mentioning  them together. Like, an old servant in the Eyrie mentioning Lyanna's stay there. Or that Robert admired Lyanna's horsemanship. Just some tiny bits mentioned in passing that would allow the reader to grasp that those two spent some time together.

37 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

If so Ned only saw Lyanna (3) times in their entire lives we know that isn't true. Ned's emotion,how he addressed Lyanna how she addressed him tells us how close they were.So i am telling you again Robert's behavior and language,Ned's account,how he spoke about them,how he described certain situations,the language he used tell us what kind of relationship they had.

Others have already pointed out to you that Robert's behaviour doesn't say anything about Lyanna's feelings - and neither does Ned's account, because Ned says that Robert loved Lyanna, not that Lyanna loved Robert.

37 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

It is your perception,one that you "choose" to make that Robert ignored Lyanna.

Choose? Please, how is a guy involved in a drinking contest pay attention to his GF? Do elaborate.

37 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Did Lyanna grab you as the type to have anybody hanging all over her.

Nice strawman there, I never said anything like that. But a guy you are in a loving intimate relationship with should at least sit next to you and talk about things you both like. Why is Robert having a nice drinking time on his own instead of having a laugh with Lyanna?

37 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Next,Rhaegar wasn't playing a song "for" Lyanna he was doing what he always did per JonCon.

The same as above - you're arguing something I never said. 

37 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

At gatherings like these he'd play his harp and women would get all teary eyed.Her reaction was no different than all the other women that cried when Rhaegar played his harp.

Yet her reaction earned her a tease from Benjen, which is rather telling that it was not her usual reaction.

37 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Ygrain, i choose to believe you are feinting being glib for what you believe is some debate advantage but it isn't Every book has mentioned Robert.Robert who beside Ned has appeared in more Jon Snow chapters than any other prospect for the expressed purpose of characters talking to Jon about him.Not just mentions but giving Jon important info.

And what information about Robert do those mentions bring to us? You know, like, fleshing out his character, some bits of his past (preferably some common ground with Lyanna), something we don't know yet? -Except the brothel thing?

37 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

He has more connection to Jon than Rhaegar who has none at all,at all.We have moments like this:

Very surprising, given that Jon actually met Robert personally, whereas Rhaegar died even before Jon was born. Who would have thought so.

37 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

 Floating above them were the largest banners yet, royal standards as big as sheets; a yellow one with long pointed tongues that showed a flaming heart, and another like a sheet of beaten gold, with a black stag prancing and rippling in the wind. Robert, Jon thought for one mad moment, remembering poor Owen, but when the trumpets blew again and the knights charged, the name they cried was “Stannis! Stannis! STANNIS!” Jon turned away, and went inside the tent Jon,ASOS..

I'm kinda missing your point here. What is the earth-shattering revelation behind the royal Baratheon standard prompting the thought of the one Baratheon king that Jon personally met and who was the hero of the family stories since his childhood?

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Never failing not to grasp, right? 

They don't have to explicitely appear on  pages together. The problem is that we don't have even anyone mentioning  them together. Like, an old servant in the Eyrie mentioning Lyanna's stay there. Or that Robert admired Lyanna's horsemanship. Just some tiny bits mentioned in passing that would allow the reader to grasp that those two spent some time together.

Ygrain..Do you have anyone giving an account of Rhaegar and Lyanna staying anywhere together? Any old servant mentioning Lyanna and Rhaegar's stay anywhere.Anyone repeating or being an eye witness to Rhaegar "having said anything about Lyanna Stark." Do you have a best friend,guard,brother, sister ) anyone who can show us Rhaegar felt thusly.Anything more than

1.Him crowning her QOLAB -which means nothing considering the context it appears.

2.People "thinking" or "hearing" that he ran off with her,so he must have loved her if he did that.

Lastly, it is customary in the era that this series takes place that the bride to be spend time with her bethrothal(if they aren't in a hurry for some particular reason).Just as Sansa spent time with Joffrey,Margery spent time with both Joff and Tommen.It is not far reaching to think that Lyanna would have spent time with Robert in the Vale.Given that he was able to say how 

"Lyanna wouldn't have shamed him" in a certain way i think its safe to say he knew her well enough to know what she would and wouldn't do with regard to him.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Others have already pointed out to you that Robert's behaviour doesn't say anything about Lyanna's feelings - and neither does Ned's account, because Ned says that Robert loved Lyanna, not that Lyanna loved Robert.

Umm,others are wrong,naive,in the dark,out of touch with human behavior...Anything else you want me to add on what others have pointed out.Lyanna is dead, Ned not saying that Lyanna loved Robert is no different than Ned not saying Lyanna loved after he said he loved her with his whole heart.

Ned is an intimate of Lyanna her sibling and we know they were close.He has the love of Robert for his sister eclipsing that of even his own.That tells you nothing about Robert's relationship with Lyanna.....Dear me.Well you all really need GRRM to spell things out.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Choose? Please, how is a guy involved in a drinking contest pay attention to his GF? Do elaborate.

Again if you are basing how Robert and Lyanna may have felt about each other because he's having a drinking contest with a buddy.I can't help you.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Nice strawman there, I never said anything like that. But a guy you are in a loving intimate relationship with should at least sit next to you and talk about things you both like. Why is Robert having a nice drinking time on his own instead of having a laugh with Lyanna?

Are you serious with this Ygrain? Why would Robert need to sit with Lyanna at that moment to talk about the things they like when its already established in the text that they like the same things and are similar in a lot of ways.hjl

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Lyanna:

"'You have a wildness in you, child. ‘The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave. "Ned to Arya (I 215).

“The crowning of the Stark girl who by all accounts was a wild and boyish thing…… (WB, pg137).

He [Brandon] loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two. ADWD chpt 38.

 “That evening there was to be a feast in Harrenhal, to mark the opening of the tourney, and the she-wolf insisted that the lad attend. He was of high birth, with as much a right to a place on the bench as any other man. She was not easy to refuse…..”

About Robert:

 

“He (Ned) was no Jon Arryn, to curb the wildness of his king and teach him wisdom. Robert would do what he pleased, as he always had, and nothing Ned could say or do would change that (AGOT,Ned.Chp 12).”

 

“He’s only a boy,” Ned said awkwardly. He had small liking for Prince Joffrey, but he could hear the pain in Robert’s voice. “Have you forgotten how wild you were at his age?” Agot Ned.”

“I am heartily sick of secrets and squabbles and matters of state, Ned. It's all as tedious as counting coppers. Come, let's ride, you used to know how. I want to feel the wind in my hair again." He kicked his horse back into motion and galloped up over the barrow, raining earth down behind him (AGOT,Ned Chpt 12).

“Gods," he swore, laughing, “It feels good to get out and ride the way a man was meant to ride! I swear, Ned, this creeping along is enough to drive a man mad." He had never been a patient man, Robert Baratheon AGOT,Ned,chpt 12).”

“His leg was throbbing so badly he was almost blind with pain. Or perhaps it was grief that fogged his eyes. He lowered himself to the bed, beside his friend. “Why do you always have to be so headstrong? agot?”

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

The same as above - you're arguing something I never said. 

Then why bring up something that every woman does when Rhaegar plays his harp as if its something of an anomlly that Lyanna was crying?

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Yet her reaction earned her a tease from Benjen, which is rather telling that it was not her usual reaction.

Yeah its not her reaction,its the reaction of every woman that hear  him play and this is most defnitely the first time she heard Rhaegar play his harp.My Tomboy sister is crying at a song...I'd tease her to.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

And what information about Robert do those mentions bring to us? You know, like, fleshing out his character, some bits of his past (preferably some common ground with Lyanna), something we don't know yet? -Except the brothel thing?

Showing how he was born to be a warrior,how he had changed after he became King.Showing him at the height of the world and at his very worse.Giving Jon info about another potential sibling.

Jon already knows about Robert and Lyanna.He has a point of reference with regards to them a history of "a them"...Just like between the lines everyone who is anyone knows about Robert and Lyanna.That can work both ways Ygrain.

"Two seats away, the king had been drinking heavily all night. His broad face was flushed behind his great black beard. He made many a toast, laughed loudly at every jest, and attacked each dish like a starving man, but beside him the queen seemed as cold as an ice sculpture. "The queen is angry too," Jon told his uncle in a low, quiet voice. "Father took the king down to the crypts this afternoon. The queen didn't want him to go Asos,Jon 1."

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

Very surprising, given that Jon actually met Robert personally, whereas Rhaegar died even before Jon was born. Who would have thought so.

Connection Ygrain to the narrative...He is a more relevant connection to Jon in terms of the experiances they both shared when confronted with almost the same situations.

1 hour ago, Ygrain said:

I'm kinda missing your point here. What is the earth-shattering revelation behind the royal Baratheon standard prompting the thought of the one Baratheon king that Jon personally met and who was the hero of the family stories since his childhood?

Ofcourse you are...He wasn't just the hero of the "family stories" Ygrain. 

Next had come King Robert himself, with Lady Stark on his arm. The king was a great disappointment to Jon. His father had talked of him often: the peerless Robert Baratheon, demon of the Trident, the fiercest warrior of the realm, a giant among princes. Jon saw only a fat man, red-faced under his beard, sweating through his silks. He walked like a man half in his cups."

The author chose to Jon to reveal that Ned had chosen to speak to him about Robert frequently.Ned elevated Robert to Jon...He was above all warriors and all Princes( Tell me was Rhaegar not a prince?).

The point of the quote you so casually dismissed was to highlight that the narrative is in such a way Robert through Ned has been made someone relevant to Jon....In a positive light.It wasn't their fault ofcourse that Robert had grown into such a sod after rusting on the throne.But indicated by Jon's behavior in that mad second was hope...Only to be disppointed again that in some way shape or form Robert had disappointed him.

Your getting the angle here a bit.

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On September 24, 2016 at 3:51 PM, nanother said:

Good point about the pregnany complicating things. I can see Rhaegar holding off for that reason.

Agreed on that.

:cheers:

13 hours ago, SFDanny said:

No, no apology needed. I take it that both you and @Voice just chose to ignore the argument that motive is not evidence.

No, not ignoring--that's why I included modus operandi and not just motive. 

One way or another, Rhaegar knew the county was a tinderbox and set it on fire: for love, for prophecy babies, for Summerhall Sacrifice Part Deux, or, in my hypothetical, for the throne. I think those are all of the Rhaegar theories--if I've missed one out, please let me know.

But prior to Lyanna's disappearance, we have no instances where Rhaegar was willing to let people fight and die for his love, his prophecy babies, or his second Summerhall Sacrifice.

We do know he was willing to let people fight and die by stirring up potential rebellion at Harrenhal. One way or another, people would die. No way a student of history like Rhaegar, who knew how volatile things were in the country, wouldn't know that alliance and rebellion would end in bloodshed.

We also know that he was in the room when Tywin planned to sack Duskendale to get Aerys killed, thus crowning Rhaegar. And there is no record Rhaegar in any way objected to this plan.

It's a short list, but extant: we know Rhaegar was willing to let people fight and die to remove his father and get himself on the throne. We have no evidence he was willing to do so for love, prophecy babies, or potential sacrifices.

Could he have extended his willingness to let people die to any of those three things? Of course. But the fact that we know he has done it before to get the throne but not for the other reasons--that seems worth considering, no?

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We can come up with all kinds of schemes in our heads about Tywin did this, or Tywin did that, but we need a clue that he actual may have done anything of the sort, don't you think? So far, I don't see evidence of even a twinkle in his eye towards actually doing this. And I see enormous plot holes if we accept the idea he did.

Even though he's done it before? And that he did it again with the Red Wedding? And that Martin spends a fair amount of time on Duskendale in the World Book? And that he includes it in the novels by having Brienne stomp all around Duskendal while looking for a missing Stark maiden? Duskendale matters for some reason--one clear option: because it shows Tywin and Rhaegar using others' rebellion to kill Aerys and crown Rhaegar.

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So, let's follow this unsupported idea to logical conclusion. I have to ask, just to make sure here, is Rhaegar involved in the conspiracy to take Lyanna, or not? Is he, for some unknown reasons having someone else do the deed, but he knows of it and approves of his old pal Tywin's plot to pin the act on him? Because if he is a silent partner, and then gets all of the blame for the act, but doesn't get hold of the girl, then how does that make any sense? It doesn't.

Yup--this is one of the reasons when working out my fevered brainchild of a  Theory on the Porcupine Knight, I included multiple contingencies. I don't know if Rhaegar knew beforehand and then ended up with Lyanna after the plan to kidnap/kill her failed when she ran. Not unlike standing by when Tywin proposed sacking Duskendale. Or if the plan was for Rhaegar to rescue her. Or if Tywin planned to have her killed (like the Jon Arryn plot--murder to stir things up)--not sure.

And I don't know if Rhaegar was always intended to be "framed" for it or if Tywin did that to play both sides. A lot of options are possible in this hypothetical.

 

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 By taking the blame he has placed the target for all the anti-Targaryen alliance squarely on his back. There is no question of getting support to replace his father with himself. He has ended whatever small chance existed after Harrenhal of that taking place.

Yup--this is one of the reasons I think Tywin may have double-crossed him a bit. 

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Why then doesn't he come forward and stop the executions of Brandon and Rickard and all the others, by saying he did not do this act; it is someone else who has done the crime? With a not so subtle pointing of a finger at Tywin? If he ever wants to win the fealty of the Starks, the Tullys, the Arryns, or the Baratheons, he needs to do so, but he does not.

Because he needs Daddy off of the throne first. And if he has Lyanna, he has leverage at the end. 

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What we are left with is the dubious idea that what Rhaegar wants is for his father to kill all of the rebel lords, or they kill him, or both, and he will somehow pick up the pieces with no army of his own,

He's got Tywin and Frey. But it would depend on when he intended to enter the war. @Voice posits that Rhaegar intended to sit it out the whole time. I think there's a chance he intended to come back and win a battle when it all comes to a head. But who knows? If it's my take, that makes Rhaegar out as heroic-ish.

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Your idea also asks the reader to believe Rhaegar starts out with this plan, but then decides "oops, that didn't work" and comes back to save his father and Targaryen rule, but still doesn't deny he took Lyanna.

No--I think it was his plan all along to come back and look like the savior after Daddy had proven himself irrational, violent, and incompetent. Then win the war and depose Daddy. He'd be in a position of power to make peace--bringing back Lyanna then would (potentially) help him convince the STAB alliance to calm down and accept his victory and Daddy-Deposing more easily.

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Again, all of this based on no actual clue anyone other than Rhaegar took Lyanna. Pardon me, but you two are too smart to fall down this rabbit hole and think you found the secret of secrets.

Well, I refer you back to my point at the top: Prior to Lyanna's disappearance, we have evidence Rhaegar will let people fight and die to get his father off the throne and him onto it. And conspire with Tywin to do so.

We don't have evidence prior to the disappearance that Rhaegar is willing to do the same for love, babies, or sacrificial lambs. 

One way or another, that's gotta be a reason to think maybe that disappearance and stir up to rebellion was all about deposing the king.

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14 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

You know who else sits out the war? Late Lord Frey.

YUP! The same Freys that Tywin is related to via marriage. Who are family to one of the knights defeated by the Knight of the Laughing Tree (along with Haigh--Frey vassals--and Blount--Tywin's lackey). The same Freys that were willing to do the Red Wedding atrocity with assurances from Tywin. Because Walder Frey is NOT brave. 

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"Walder Frey is a peevish old man who lives to fondle his young wife and brood over all the slights he's suffered. I have no doubt he hatched this ugly chicken, but he would never have dared such a thing without a promise of protection." Storm, Tyrion VI.

They, too, sat out the war. Which was a risk. The idea that they sat it out on assurances from Tywin seems at least worth considering, no?

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This scenario you are suggesting - where Rhaegar coldly calculates that millions of lives can be thrown away so that we he can get his father off the throne - makes him no better than LittleFinger, morally. I see no indication of that in the text, currently. 

St. Rhaegar is a figment of Viserys' fevered brain that he transferred to Dany. One way or another, Rhaegar let his country burn. Even set it up to burn.

Rheagar knew the country was a tinderbox. And in any of the scenarios proposed so far, he was willing to set it on fire: for love, for prophecy babies, for sacrificial lambs, for a throne.

The only question is: which motive did Rhaegar think was worth setting up his people to fight and die.

As I said to @SFDanny above: prior to Lyanna's disappearance, we have no record that Rhaegar was willing to let people fight and die for his love, his prophecy baby project, or for Summerhal Sacrifices.

But we do know he was willing to let people fight and die to kill Aerys and get himself on the throne. 

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Getting his father off the throne can be accomplished in much less messy, dangerous and bloodthirsty ways (like I suggested, putting poison in his food.). There's hardly any reason to go to such lengths to get his father off the throne and simultaneously piss off half the kingdom you apparently want to rule.

But he and Tywin did this before with Duskendale. If they'd wanted to just kill Aerys, they'd have done it long ago. One way or another, they wanted him dead AND plausible deniability of fault. 

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Well, and if this theory assumes that Rhaegar was indeed like LF, there's really no reason why he should give a fig about his best friend Arthur and his romance either. When the man doesn't care about his father, his wife and kids, hundreds of other lives, et al and is willing to go to such lengths for a throne, the idea that he cares about "protecting" his best friend makes no sense at all.

I don't think he was just protecting Arthur--if he kept Lyanna for leverage, a pregnant Lyanna is problematic. He'd want to keep that mum until he could win the final battle and had more power from which to negotiate.

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These are some of the biggest inconsistencies I see with this theory, among many others which @SFDanny has outlined above.  The number of assumptions and speculations we have to make with barely any textual evidence to support it is far, far more than the assumptions we have to make with the R + L  theory - or at the very least, it is equal, but R + L is supported much better by what the canon has given us currently.

There are plenty of holes in RLJ theories. And plenty of speculation, too.

But as I noted above, one way or another, we know that Rhaegar was willing to stir up or use wars/rebellions to kill Daddy and crown himself. We have no record of him stirring up rebellion/using rebellion for love, babies, or sacrifices. Canon at least gives us that.

And as @Voice noted above, if we go straight by canon, Ned and Wylla are Jon's parents. 

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There is some inconsistency in the fact that you say one one hand, you need hard textual evidence for the fact that R + L  actually ran away together, but on the other hand make a number of assumptions based off info for which we have no textual evidence of at all, starting with the relationship between Rhaegar and Tywin.

My apologies for being unclear--I wasn't saying that RLJ can't be considered without the textual evidence of their "running away." My apologies if I muddled that issue.

My point: it cannot be confirmed as fact yet. No more can any of the hypotheticals I've proposed. But there are reasons to consider those hypotheticals. As there are reasons to consider RLJ. Even if Ned + Wylla=Jon  is canon.

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10 hours ago, Voice said:

Religions fear doubt. Academic inquiry encourages it.

Amen. Though I'd alter that slightly: wise theologians/religious types embrace exploring doubt, too.

10 hours ago, Voice said:

No alternative scenario is needed to cast doubt, canon accomplishes that on its own quite easily. We are told, quite directly, that Ned is Jon's father, by his own admission, and that Wylla is Jon's mother by Ned's own admission. If we then doubt that, and speculate that Lyanna might be Jon's mother instead of aunt, fine. But at that point we must accept we are drawing inferences from canon rather than merely citing it. In my opinion, it requires far less inference to see that Lyanna would not have approved of aiding a man in his attempt to leave his wife's bed for the purpose of siring a bastard, and it requires far more inference to speculate that she would.

If Rhaegar took Lyanna, as reported, I have a hard time seeing Lyanna as a willing participant in that excursion and a far harder time seeing her developing desire for a married man, or his bastard.

Lyanna's own character and convictions should matter to us, and her thoughts on such matters are pretty clear.

Amen.

10 hours ago, Voice said:

Now, all of that being said, I have no issue at all with the idea that Rhaegar did take Lyanna. I mean, it's just a damn book. LOL

And amen again, Ser!

10 hours ago, Voice said:

But if we accept a "universally held view" as evidence, simply because it is "universally held," then neither should that be applied as a double standard. We cannot pick and choose universally held views.

So if Rhaegar's taking of Lyanna is thus proven, because it is a universally held view, it is also proven that Ned is Jon's father. Right?

Do you see how discourteous, narrow-minded, and hypocritical it sounds when you mock @Sly Wren's views because they are not "universally held" in a fictional universe, while at the same time picking and choosing which universally held views from that fictional universe merit consideration and discussion?

:grouphug:

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48 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Rheagar knew the country was a tinderbox. And in any of the scenarios proposed so far, he was willing to set it on fire: for love, for prophecy babies, for sacrificial lambs, for a throne.

The only question is: which motive did Rhaegar think was worth setting up his people to fight and die.

There is one additional scenario that pops into mind. It's pretty crazy, but possibly worth considering. It could be possible that Tywin pulled his stunt alone while Rhaegar was NOT in Westeros. You ask what would be important enough to Rhaegar to risk the potential of a war? Would he think that the safety of his son, who he believes to be the promised prince was important enough to leave the country to the whims of his father? Between his father and the tinder box that Westeros was becoming, I would imagine that there was already enough imminent danger to percipitate action. 

When Myrcella leaves King's Landing for Dorne she travels via Bravos because it is safer. Did Rhaegar take the same route in order to shepherd his infant son to safety? Did Dorne only start amassing their spears to battle because they had the assurances of one of Rhaegar's children in their custody?  If Rhaegar sailed to Braavos and then on to Dorne, he would still be returning from the south.

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56 minutes ago, Lady Dyanna said:

There is one additional scenario that pops into mind. It's pretty crazy, but possibly worth considering. It could be possible that Tywin pulled his stunt alone while Rhaegar was NOT in Westeros. You ask what would be important enough to Rhaegar to risk the potential of a war? Would he think that the safety of his son, who he believes to be the promised prince was important enough to leave the country to the whims of his father? Between his father and the tinder box that Westeros was becoming, I would imagine that there was already enough imminent danger to percipitate action. 

When Myrcella leaves King's Landing for Dorne she travels via Bravos because it is safer. Did Rhaegar take the same route in order to shepherd his infant son to safety? Did Dorne only start amassing their spears to battle because they had the assurances of one of Rhaegar's children in their custody?  If Rhaegar sailed to Braavos and then on to Dorne, he would still be returning from the south.

I could see this. I've tried to come up with scenarios where Rhaegar didn't start the mess but instead took advantage of it once it got going. This might work. And some of the allusions we've talked about elsewhere to the "king" going to Braavos might make sense in that context.

Such a hypothetical, though, does raise the question of why Rhaegar didn't move his whole family. Or take some of the rest of them somewhere else if he didn't want them all in one place. And since he seems to have only thought he needed one more--meaning that in his mind Rhaenys was one of the "heads." And thus should have been worth protecting somewhat, too. 

But he may have thought splitting them up made sense. . . . hmmm. He may even have sailed to Braavos then back to the Riverlands. . . . where he could accidentally end up with Lyanna. . . it's obviously very hypothetical, but it's an interesting potential.

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9 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

But as I noted above, one way or another, we know that Rhaegar was willing to stir up or use wars/rebellions to kill Daddy and crown himself. We have no record of him stirring up rebellion/using rebellion for love, babies, or sacrifices. Canon at least gives us that.

There is no record of him stirring up a war to kill his father - because we don't have any proof that he and Tywin were working together, for one, and second, whether he wanted his father to die at Duskendale. His final dialogue to Jaime does not indicate that he had preplanned this rebellion, it seems like he was regretting that he had not made some "changes" long ago:

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Rhaegar had put his hand on Jaime's shoulder. "When this battle's done I mean to call a council. Changes will be made. I meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. We shall talk when I return."

At most, we know from HH that he was planning a coup d'etat, which is very different from what actually took place. This doesn't sound like a man who began a country-wide war on purpose to depose his father - it sounds like he's talking about a coup/ Great Council sort of thing, but it didn't work out.

I have real difficulty seeing this whole affair as a purely politically motivated one because what Rhaegar did was absolute political suicide. And he did it without even ensuring the safety of the few people who could be used as leverage against him  - Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys. If this was all purely political, one must wonder why he didn't undertake this mission after sending them to Dorne to be safe. Then the advantage would have been purely in his hands. Viserys and his mother were in danger here as well.

We have to assume that Rhaegar put his own political ambitions above the safety and lives of all these people. The motivation of prophecy can atleast explain that he felt this was for the greater good of the realm. This motivation is completely and utterly LF-like selfish.

Tywin, the Freys, the Greyjoys, even Mace Tyrell taking his huge army and doing nothing but sitting outside Storm's End can be explained by other means as well - namely that they wanted to join the winning side, whatever happened. In fact, it is heavily indicated that Tywin was playing both sides of the rebellion because he was in talks to betroth Jaime to Lysa Tully. 

Basically, the Targs literally had hardly any true allies during the rebellion. Their house was done for. Even if Rhaegar had ascended the throne he'd have been practically toothless because Stark/Tully/Arryn still had marriage ties binding them, Baratheons and Martells would have hated him, Tyrells wouldn't have cared, and Lannisters would have been ready to betray him at the drop of a hat. That's why the relationship between Rhaegar and Tywin becomes crucial to this theory - everything relies on how much Rhaegar really trusted him. We have no hint of anything like that in the text.

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1 hour ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

There is no record of him stirring up a war to kill his father - because we don't have any proof that he and Tywin were working together, for one, and second, whether he wanted his father to die at Duskendale. His final dialogue to Jaime does not indicate that he had preplanned this rebellion, it seems like he was regretting that he had not made some "changes" long ago:

At most, we know from HH that he was planning a coup d'etat, which is very different from what actually took place. This doesn't sound like a man who began a country-wide war on purpose to depose his father - it sounds like he's talking about a coup/ Great Council sort of thing, but it didn't work out.

On Tywin: Tywin seems mighty sure he can arrange the marriage to Rhaegar. Despite Aerys' suspicion of Tywin. One way Tywin could be confident has to be that he and Rhaegar were working together. 

As for Duskendale, Tywin really seems to have been driving that bus. Arguably even manipulating Aerys into going to deal with the Darklyns himself. But then, with the small council present outside Duskendale:

Most of the small council were with the Hand outside Duskendale at this juncture, and several of them argued against Lord Tywin's plan on the grounds that such an attack would almost certainly goad Lord Darklyn into putting King Aerys to death. "He may or he may not," Tywin Lannister reportedly replied, "but if he does, we have a better king right here." Whereupon he raised a hand to indicate Prince Rhaegar.
And then, no evidence Rhaegar resisted this. At all. ETA Others feared killing the king--he raised no such objections. 
This plan benefits them both. Enormously. If they were working together, it makes a LOT of sense. And one way or another, Rhaegar did not get in the way of this plan. Only Barristan's suicidal dumb luck stopped it.

As for Harrenhal--yes, Rhaegar was setting up a coup. And coups are rarely bloodless. That move would have cost people their lives, even innocent people. And the Dance of the Dragons should have shown Rhaegar what happens when Dragons fight each other. Besides, no king is truly deposed until he's decomposing. One way or another, Rhaegar's attempted coup/rebellion would require blood.

His final statement to Jaime strongly suggests, as you say, that he has intended to do this for a while. Perhaps he meant a Great Council. But again, no reason on earth to assume that also wouldn't have taken bloodshed. Great Council, Duskendale, or coup: Rhaegar was willing to shed blood to gain the throne.
But we have no evidence he was willing to do so for prophecy baby mamas or true love.
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I have real difficulty seeing this whole affair as a purely politically motivated one because what Rhaegar did was absolute political suicide.

Even if he intended to come in as savior at the end?

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And he did it without even ensuring the safety of the few people who could be used as leverage against him  - Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys.

Yes--Rhaegar's halo on Elia and his children is . . . non-existent. Regardless of the motive. Makes one wonder if @Lady Dyanna's idea of him moving Aegon out of the country might hold true, whatever the motive for his disappearance was. Though @Voice may also be right here: Rhaegar thought they'd be safe on Dragonstone. Aerys' taking them hostage forced Rhaegar to change his plans.

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If this was all purely political, one must wonder why he didn't undertake this mission after sending them to Dorne to be safe. Then the advantage would have been purely in his hands. Viserys and his mother were in danger here as well.

And if it were prophecy driven, one must wonder the same. Really seems like Rhaegar thought they'd be fine on Dragonstone. And he was wrong. 

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We have to assume that Rhaegar put his own political ambitions above the safety and lives of all these people. The motivation of prophecy can atleast explain that he felt this was for the greater good of the realm. This motivation is completely and utterly LF-like selfish.

On the motive, one way or another, the motive set the country on fire.

So, if his motive is "I need to chase a prophecy that so far brought my parents nothing but grief. Thus I must steal my High Lord cousin's teenage fiancé to gain my third prophecy baby, even if it blows up the realm"--if that's his motive, is it really more noble than: "Dad is a terrible king. He's blowing up the kingdom. I have a duty as (first) the Promised Prince or (later) as father to my Promised Prince to protect the kingdom from this evil guy. Smaller scale efforts have not worked. Family, duty, and Promised Princes are on the line--time to go big or go home."

No way on earth to come up with a neutral "morality" definition, but the second motive seems at least as "noble" as the first.

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Tywin, the Freys, the Greyjoys, even Mace Tyrell taking his huge army and doing nothing but sitting outside Storm's End can be explained by other means as well - namely that they wanted to join the winning side, whatever happened. In fact, it is heavily indicated that Tywin was playing both sides of the rebellion because he was in talks to betroth Jaime to Lysa Tully.

Absolutely--though I'm also wondering if Tywin would want the rebels to back Rhaegar. Rhaegar would keep Tywin as Hand. The STAB alliance was less likely to do so. 

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Basically, the Targs literally had hardly any true allies during the rebellion. Their house was done for. Even if Rhaegar had ascended the throne he'd have been practically toothless because Stark/Tully/Arryn still had marriage ties binding them, Baratheons and Martells would have hated him, Tyrells wouldn't have cared, and Lannisters would have been ready to betray him at the drop of a hat.

Yes--but Rhaegar was at least VERY popular. More so than Tywin (who wants to be Hand) or any of the rest. Look at how people are still seeing him as fabulous, even after believing he blew up the country for true love. If he showed up as a hero after Aerys' epic failure, especially with an unharmed/saved Lyanna--he could (potentially) come out the hero.

ETA: especially if he emerges with plausible deniability: I didn't attack Lyanna. Someone else did--and here she is to vouch for me! (though I think there's a chance the original plan might have been to frame someone else for her murder).

Calling a great council to put him on the throne then, after Aerys is dead--it very much could work. And then Rhaegar, the Sane and Pretty Dragon, could work to rebuild the realm and save it with his Promised Prince.

But he can't do any of that as long as Aerys reigns.

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That's why the relationship between Rhaegar and Tywin becomes crucial to this theory - everything relies on how much Rhaegar really trusted him. We have no hint of anything like that in the text.

The proposed marriage seems to point to some alliance. As does Duskendale. As does their sitting out the war.

"Trust???" If Rhaegar has any sense, he'd know Tywin can be treacherous. But Tywin wants to be Hand to a sane king. He and Tywin would both be getting what they want, something neither can have with Aerys on the throne. So, "trust each other to work for their own goals," maybe. And trust each other in taking out a mutual enemy: Aerys. 

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8 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I could see this. I've tried to come up with scenarios where Rhaegar didn't start the mess but instead took advantage of it once it got going. This might work. And some of the allusions we've talked about elsewhere to the "king" going to Braavos might make sense in that context.

Yep. Braavos just keeps popping up in there, doesn't it. At this point I would lean more to the side of his having been there at some point for some reason than not. It's just too ingrained in the looping tales.

8 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Such a hypothetical, though, does raise the question of why Rhaegar didn't move his whole family. Or take some of the rest of them somewhere else if he didn't want them all in one place. And since he seems to have only thought he needed one more--meaning that in his mind Rhaenys was one of the "heads." And thus should have been worth protecting somewhat, too. 

Again, another question without an answer, or possibly too many answers. Was he trying to hide his actions? Could he only risk one at a time? Did he feel that there was more safety in keeping them apart? Did he think that the others would be less at risk due to pretty much being out of the line of succession being female? Did Aerys only agree to let one go and one stay so that he still felt that he had some leverage over Dorne should they fail to follow through? There's also the precedent of Rhaenyra trying to send Aegon III and Viserys to Essos from Dragonstone during the Dance of the Dragons. The ship was captured that time with Aegon fleeing on his dragon and Viserys being captured.

8 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

But he may have thought splitting them up made sense. . . . hmmm. He may even have sailed to Braavos then back to the Riverlands. . . . where he could accidentally end up with Lyanna. . . it's obviously very hypothetical, but it's an interesting potential.

It's probably no less likely than anything else that I'm suggesting, but it does seem that he might have had to sail entirely too close to King's Landing to be able to do that. If I had to guess, I would say he was further south than that, but that's all I can do at this point. Speculate and guess...

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37 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

As for Harrenhal--yes, Rhaegar was setting up a coup. And coups are rarely bloodless. That move would have cost people their lives, even innocent people. And the Dance of the Dragons should have shown Rhaegar what happens when Dragons fight each other. Besides, no king is truly deposed until he's decomposing. One way or another, Rhaegar's attempted coup/rebellion would require blood.

His final statement to Jaime strongly suggests, as you say, that he has intended to do this for a while. Perhaps he meant a Great Council. But again, no reason on earth to assume that also wouldn't have taken bloodshed. Great Council, Duskendale, or coup: Rhaegar was willing to shed blood to gain the throne.

Coup with all of the great lords supporting his decision --> politically way, way better than inciting a war during which you don't even clear your name as possible rapist of Lyanna till the end of the war. That would have made him seem as insane as Aerys to most of the Lords and populace.

37 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Even if he intended to come in as savior at the end?

Yes, even then. I already laid out above that he would have been a pretty toothless king with hardly any real allies. The way he was planning to do it originally --> as a coup or a council with the approval of all the Lords is 100 times better.

As LF says --> Keep your hands clean. Rhaegar's hands would have been so obviously dirty at the end of all this that not a single person would have trusted him. The real players never make themselves so obvious.

37 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Yes--Rhaegar's halo on Elia and his children is . . . non-existent. Regardless of the motive. Makes one wonder if @Lady Dyanna's idea of him moving Aegon out of the country might hold true, whatever the motive for his disappearance was. Though @Voice may also be right here: Rhaegar thought they'd be safe on Dragonstone. Aerys' taking them hostage forced Rhaegar to change his plans.

I don't disagree on this at all -  prophecy or whatever else, Rhaegar clearly didn't care much about Elia. The idea that they would be safe on DS is ridiculous whichever way you look at it. DS is surrounded by Targ loyalists who eventually would have taken Elia to KL even if she refused. And that's what happened.

Dorne would have been the safest place for them.

37 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

On the motive, one way or another, the motive set the country on fire.

So, if his motive is "I need to chase a prophecy that so far brought my parents nothing but grief. Thus I must steal a teenager to gain my third prophecy baby, even if it blows up the realm"--if that's his motive, is it really more noble than: "Dad is a terrible king. He's blowing up the kingdom. I have a duty as (first) the Promised Prince or (later) as father to my Promised Prince to protect the kingdom from this evil guy. Smaller scale efforts have not worked. Family, duty, and Promised Princes are on the line--time to go big or go home."

No way on earth to come up with a neutral "morality" definition, but the second motive seems at least as "noble" as the first

I am not insinuating that the prophecy motive was more noble, by any means. What I am asking is -  was he a "Melisandre", willing to do stuff because he felt this would "save the world", or was he a LF?

Opinions differ, but I think the Melisandre "god-complex"/saviour complex fits better - we have quite a few hints from the text indicating his interest in the prophecy, the traditional obsession of Targaryens in general with prophecy, the tendency of Targs to believe they are gods on earth, and the thin line Targs have always straddled between normalcy and insanity.

Now if he was a cold political type, I have difficulty thinking he would be so brazen and foolish so as to very obviously piss off 5 of the 7 great houses against him, and ally with the most dubious one of all - and that he saw this as the only possible way to get his father off the throne.

37 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Absolutely--though I'm also wondering if Tywin would want the rebels to back Rhaegar. Rhaegar would keep Tywin as Hand. The STAB alliance was less likely to do so. 

Right - but Tywin would want his daughter to be queen, as a reward for his support, for sure. That was his big ambition right from the start. So that would mean he has to either set aside Elia  (and disown her line) or hope she dies - which cuts off Dornish support.

So that makes S,T,A,B,M all against you. And it's very obvious to them who the culprits were. Hardly a good political play.

For a parallel, check out the situation in the North after the Red Wedding. Roose somehow emerges intact from that whole episode, with the Lordship of Winterfell, and his men unharmed too. Isn't it obvious to the Northern Lords what happened, even though Roose may deny it? 

37 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Yes--but Rhaegar was at least VERY popular. More so than Tywin (who wants to be Hand) or any of the rest. Look at how people are still seeing him as fabulous, even after believing he blew up the country for true love. If he showed up as a hero after Aerys' epic failure, especially with an unharmed/saved Lyanna--he could (potentially) come out the hero. 

Calling a great council to put him on the throne then, after Aerys is dead--it very much could work. And then Rhaegar, the Sane and Pretty Dragon, could work to rebuild the realm and save it with his Promised Prince.

Not at all. Everyone would consider him almost as insane as his father. The only people who think he's great are Jon Con (we know why), Barristan (who's a sucker for Targs.), Cersei (who was in love with the idea of being his queen).

Ned is neutral on him, frankly. In this scenario, he would have kidnapped Lyanna against her will, which would have resulted in hate.

Even Barristan who admires him says that "Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it." He also wishes he had crowned Ashara so that "much war and woe could have been avoided." - indicating that he does think Rhaegar's interest in Lyanna was responsible for the war in some way.

 

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16 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Ygrain..Do you have anyone giving an account of Rhaegar and Lyanna staying anywhere together?

I at least have a mention relating them to the same place, canyou claim as much?

16 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Any old servant mentioning Lyanna and Rhaegar's stay anywhere.

See above.

16 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Anyone repeating or being an eye witness to Rhaegar "having said anything about Lyanna Stark." Do you have a best friend,guard,brother, sister ) anyone who can show us Rhaegar felt thusly.Anything more than

You mean, all those people who say that Rhaegar loved Lyanna but whom you handwave as "not in the know"?

16 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

1.Him crowning her QOLAB -which means nothing considering the context it appears.

And the context of her being repeatedly depicted as wearing that particular QoLaB crown means apparently nothing, right? Please, do show us wearing something from Robert.

16 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

2.People "thinking" or "hearing" that he ran off with her,so he must have loved her if he did that.

Except that this reasoning is unsupported by the text. It is not stated if people arrived at the conclusion, or if they, you know, knew for a fact.

16 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Lastly, it is customary in the era that this series takes place that the bride to be spend time with her bethrothal(if they aren't in a hurry for some particular reason).Just as Sansa spent time with Joffrey,Margery spent time with both Joff and Tommen.It is not far reaching to think that Lyanna would have spent time with Robert in the Vale.

Yeah? And Allyria Dayne or Alys Karstark is home because...? And what brought about the change from the betrothed girl staying at her home mere fourteen years ago, like Cat did? Doesn't Sansa' or Margaery's presence in KL have anything to do with the fact that their betrothed is a king and that they need to get accustomed with the court or any other political reasons?

Besides, in the society that insists on the bride to be a virgin, sending her to spend the time in her betrothed's house way before their wedding would be rather coutnerproductive.

16 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Given that he was able to say how 

"Lyanna wouldn't have shamed him" in a certain way i think its safe to say he knew her well enough to know what she would and wouldn't do with regard to him.

You mean, he knew her well enough for her brother to point out that he didn't know her at all?

16 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Umm,others are wrong,naive,in the dark,out of touch with human behavior...Anything else you want me to add on what others have pointed out.Lyanna is dead, Ned not saying that Lyanna loved Robert is no different than Ned not saying Lyanna loved after he said he loved her with his whole heart.

And you apparently never considered the effects of unfulfilled longing, unattanaible ideal in a fucked up life and obsession over what you cannot have. But you are right that from that particular scene, we cannot be sure if Lyanna loved her brother as much as he loved her. 

16 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Ned is an intimate of Lyanna her sibling and we know they were close.He has the love of Robert for his sister eclipsing that of even his own.That tells you nothing about Robert's relationship with Lyanna.....Dear me.Well you all really need GRRM to spell things out.

It tells us nothing about Lyanna's feelings towards Robert. No matter how great one's feelings are, there is no guarantee that they will be reciprocated.

16 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Again if you are basing how Robert and Lyanna may have felt about each other because he's having a drinking contest with a buddy.I can't help you.

Sigh. No, a drinking contest doesn't say anything about a relationship - what does say something is the author's decision to show two people who are to be married not interacting at the single known moment when they are both on the scene.

16 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Are you serious with this Ygrain? Why would Robert need to sit with Lyanna at that moment to talk about the things they like when its already established in the text that they like the same things and are similar in a lot of ways.hjl

Because that's the way the author might want to indicate that the two people in a relationship know and appreciate each other, instead of, you know, stating that one never really knew the other. We don't even know if Robert knew that Lyanna liked to spar.

16 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Then why bring up something that every woman does when Rhaegar plays his harp as if its something of an anomlly that Lyanna was crying?

Yeah its not her reaction,its the reaction of every woman that hear  him play and this is most defnitely the first time she heard Rhaegar play his harp.My Tomboy sister is crying at a song...I'd tease her to.

Because every woman likes riding and sparring and - oh, wait. So, this tomboy girl, who is nothing like the typical ladies who listen to Rhaegar's songs, has a reaction which for another tomboy, who happens to be Lyanna's spitting image, would be highly untypical. And you don't see it. Okay.

16 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Showing how he was born to be a warrior,how he had changed after he became King.Showing him at the height of the world and at his very worse. Giving Jon info about another potential sibling.

That's what we know about Robert from AGOT already. How about some steady influx of new information, like we are learning about Rhaegar?

16 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Jon already knows about Robert and Lyanna.He has a point of reference with regards to them a history of "a them"...Just like between the lines everyone who is anyone knows about Robert and Lyanna.That can work both ways Ygrain.

"Two seats away, the king had been drinking heavily all night. His broad face was flushed behind his great black beard. He made many a toast, laughed loudly at every jest, and attacked each dish like a starving man, but beside him the queen seemed as cold as an ice sculpture. "The queen is angry too," Jon told his uncle in a low, quiet voice. "Father took the king down to the crypts this afternoon. The queen didn't want him to go Asos,Jon 1."

Surprisingly, not everything revels around Jon Snow. I am asking about the information for the reader,  to be able to piece the mystery together.

16 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Connection Ygrain to the narrative...He is a more relevant connection to Jon in terms of the experiances they both shared when confronted with almost the same situations.

Could you point me to where Jon draws to any Robert parallels, like he does e.g. with Ned? 

16 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Ofcourse you are...He wasn't just the hero of the "family stories" Ygrain. 

Next had come King Robert himself, with Lady Stark on his arm. The king was a great disappointment to Jon. His father had talked of him often: the peerless Robert Baratheon, demon of the Trident, the fiercest warrior of the realm, a giant among princes. Jon saw only a fat man, red-faced under his beard, sweating through his silks. He walked like a man half in his cups."

The author chose to Jon to reveal that Ned had chosen to speak to him about Robert frequently.Ned elevated Robert to Jon...He was above all warriors and all Princes( Tell me was Rhaegar not a prince?).

And which other warriors and princes were Ned's childhood friends at whose side he fought for his very life? Just above, you talked about insights into human minds and emotions and what not, yet you seem unable to grasp the basic reasons why Ned might want to talk about Robert more frequently than other warriors and princes. Try harder.

16 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

The point of the quote you so casually dismissed was to highlight that the narrative is in such a way Robert through Ned has been made someone relevant to Jon....In a positive light.

Oh, yes. Presenting your best buddy whom you love as a brother in a positive light is such an unusual deal that he definitely must be Jon's father. Sheesh. In what other light do you think Ned should present him?

16 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

It wasn't their fault ofcourse that Robert had grown into such a sod after rusting on the throne.But indicated by Jon's behavior in that mad second was hope...Only to be disppointed again that in some way shape or form Robert had disappointed him.

Your getting the angle here a bit.

“If the wildlings attack, the king will come and help us, won’t he? He’s a mighty warrior, King Robert. He’s sure to come. Maester Aemon sent him a bird.”
There was no use telling him that Robert Baratheon was dead. He would forget it, as he’d forgotten it before. “Maester Aemon sent him a bird,” Jon agreed. That seemed to make Owen happy. (Owen the Oaf)

...

And through the smoke another wedge of armored riders came, on barded horses. Floating above them were the largest banners yet, royal standards as big as sheets; a yellow one with long pointed tongues that showed a flaming heart, and another like a sheet of beaten gold, with a black stag prancing and rippling in the wind.
Robert, Jon thought for one mad moment, remembering poor Owen, but when the trumpets blew again and the knights charged, the name they cried was “Stannis! Stannis! STANNIS!”
Jon turned away, and went inside the tent.

 

Here you go why Jon thinks for a moment that it was Robert (and BTW, it doesn't say he thought so with hope). His turning away might point towards disapointment, though it would be hard to feel disappointed by one dead not turning up, but there are more compelling reasons, like finding out Dalla's condition, as well as the supposed Horn of Winter, which was on Jon's mind shortly prior: "Jon took a step toward the tent, thinking of the Horn of Winter, but the shadowcat blocked him, tail lashing".

 

All in all, you're still beinding the book to your theory instead of building your theory on that which is actually in the book.

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3 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

Yep. Braavos just keeps popping up in there, doesn't it. At this point I would lean more to the side of his having been there at some point for some reason than not. It's just too ingrained in the looping tales.

Again, another question without an answer, or possibly too many answers. Was he trying to hide his actions? Could he only risk one at a time? Did he feel that there was more safety in keeping them apart? Did he think that the others would be less at risk due to pretty much being out of the line of succession being female? Did Aerys only agree to let one go and one stay so that he still felt that he had some leverage over Dorne should they fail to follow through? There's also the precedent of Rhaenyra trying to send Aegon III and Viserys to Essos from Dragonstone during the Dance of the Dragons. The ship was captured that time with Aegon fleeing on his dragon and Viserys being captured.

It's probably no less likely than anything else that I'm suggesting, but it does seem that he might have had to sail entirely too close to King's Landing to be able to do that. If I had to guess, I would say he was further south than that, but that's all I can do at this point. Speculate and guess...

The precedent of sending heirs to Dragonstone seems relevant here, as you say. Rhaegar really might have just woefully miscalculated. But, one way or another, where the hell he was, with or without Lyanna, will have to be dealt with. 

His taking a trip to Braavos with the baby has definite possibilities. Taking him to Dorne in the middle of a coup attempt (or a love-eloping or prophecy chasing) could be really stupid--kids would be safe, but Rheagar would be handing Doran tons of leverage.

But Braavos is also anti-dragon, which is a potential problem. Still, it would make sense, as you say, with the looping back to Braavos that shows up in the novels.

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3 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Coup with all of the great lords supporting his decision --> politically way, way better than inciting a war during which you don't even clear your name as possible rapist of Lyanna till the end of the war. That would have made him seem as insane as Aerys to most of the Lords and populace.

I agree--which is where my mad Porcupine Knight Theory (key word being "theory") comes in: Rhaegar and Tywin need fall guys. Like the Darklyns would have taken the onus for Aerys' death (no matter how much it helped Rhaegar and Tywin). Or like Tywin puts the onus for Elia's death on Lorch:

"And when Oberyn demands the justice he's come for?"
"I will tell him that Ser Amory Lorch killed Elia and her children," Lord Tywin said calmly. "So will you, if he asks." 
"Ser Amory Lorch is dead," Tyrion said flatly.
"Precisely. Vargo Hoat had Ser Amory torn apart by a bear after the fall of Harrenhal. That ought to be sufficiently grisly to appease even Oberyn Martell." Storm, Tyrion VI
Or like Baelish sets Marillion up to be the fall guy (terrible pun) for Lysa's death. 
The three knights, all from houses that do very dirty work for Tywin, all have an identifiable grudge against the Laughing Tree Knight. Killing Lyanna (I think that was likely the most possible plan) is insane for Rhaegar or Tywin to do, no? It makes no sense, etc. So, when Rhaegar comes back, all he needs is a reasonable excuse for his absence, perhaps then win a battle, and then Tywin can come forward with one of the three knights as the fall guy for Lyanna's death/disappearance. Perhaps even torture said fall guy into confession, as Baelish does to Marillion.
Rhaegar and Tywin get rid of Aerys. Rhaegar is king. Tywin is hand. They have at least a veneer of deniability. And someone else was to blame for the terrible disappearance. While Aerys is CLEARLY to blame for the atrocity of Brandon and Rickard's deaths. Aerys is dead and the fall guy suffers a terrible fate to be handed over to the Starks as a show of good faith.

 

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Yes, even then. I already laid out above that he would have been a pretty toothless king with hardly any real allies. The way he was planning to do it originally --> as a coup or a council with the approval of all the Lords is 100 times better.

If Rhaegar could have pulled it off, or pulled of the Duskendale plot--absolutely. But Devil Daddy got wind of it. And now the country is angrier than ever. 

If Tywin and Rhaegar can have a fall guy to blame for the instigating incident (Lyanna's disappearance), then all they need to is sit back and let Aerys blow up the country.

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As LF says --> Keep your hands clean. Rhaegar's hands would have been so obviously dirty at the end of all this that not a single person would have trusted him. The real players never make themselves so obvious.

Yup. That's why they need a fall guy. Something Tywin clearly knows. And Rhaegar should know after Duskendale. And, as you said, Baelish has clearly shown us is a way to get a rebellion started while blaming others.

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Dorne would have been the safest place for them.

Safe for them, yes. But maybe not for Rhaegar's plans if he hands them over to Doran. Gives Doran a lot of leverage.

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I am not insinuating that the prophecy motive was more noble, by any means. What I am asking is -  was he a "Melisandre", willing to do stuff because he felt this would "save the world", or was he a LF?

That might be too much of a binary--seems like there's a lot of middle ground between the two. Perhaps Rhaegar as a true believer in prophecy. But to fulfill Aegon's role as ruler, Rhaegar needs control of the realm. So, both "save the world" and political. 

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Right - but Tywin would want his daughter to be queen, as a reward for his support, for sure. That was his big ambition right from the start. So that would mean he has to either set aside Elia  (and disown her line) or hope she dies - which cuts off Dornish support.

Unless, again, he can get a veneer of deniability around Elia's death. The attack on her by the Kingswood Brotherhood--I need to look into it more, but I've been thinking for a while that might have been Tywin-driven. A way to get rid of Elia while blaming a band of outlaws.

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So that makes S,T,A,B,M all against you. And it's very obvious to them who the culprits were. Hardly a good political play.

Very obvious--unless they have those fall guys. Like Tywin has Lorch. And Baelish has Marillion. And we know Tywin has three knights with a potential grudge against the Starks.

Which is one reason political maneuvering makes some sense: if Rhaegar did all of this for love or prophecy, he's torched his potential platform (the throne) from which to fulfill his prophecy. Let alone making himself and his lover eternal exiles.

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For a parallel, check out the situation in the North after the Red Wedding. Roose somehow emerges intact from that whole episode, with the Lordship of Winterfell, and his men unharmed too. Isn't it obvious to the Northern Lords what happened, even though Roose may deny it?

Right--because Roose was witnessed stabbing Robb. And was right there when it all happened. Rhaegar? No idea where he actually was. After he comes forward, as long as he has a good cover story, and Tywin has the knights to blame.

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Not at all. Everyone would consider him almost as insane as his father. The only people who think he's great are Jon Con (we know why), Barristan (who's a sucker for Targs.), Cersei (who was in love with the idea of being his queen).

Unless Rhaegar had a plausible cover story. And other culprits to blame.

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Ned is neutral on him, frankly. In this scenario, he would have kidnapped Lyanna against her will, which would have resulted in hate.

Even Barristan who admires him says that "Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it." He also wishes he had crowned Ashara so that "much war and woe could have been avoided." - indicating that he does think Rhaegar's interest in Lyanna was responsible for the war in some way.

Yes--and imagine Barristan's devotion to Rhaegar if Rhaegar could "prove" he'd been wrongly accused. Let alone the rest of the Targ loyalists.

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On 2016. 09. 24. at 9:58 PM, Ygrain said:

Both are inconsistent with Rhaegar's character, but how exactly is running off inconsistent with Lyanna's wolf blood leading her to an early grave?

Not running of per se. If you said she ran off to kick Rhaegar in the balls for embarrassing her at Harrenhal, I could almost believe it. I could also see her running away from marriage (although there's no indication that she hated the thought of wedding Robert that much) or even the role of a Lady altogether. But I'd expect her to be wary about getting into a relationship with a married man. Not only because of the (in)fidelity issue, but also because I have a feeling that it'd bother her that she's stealing someone else's husband.

On 2016. 09. 25. at 9:18 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

Not at all...Her location not being known or not isn't the case.If she was indeed missing.When was she missing and when did people know she was missing.This is the important part.If she was when was she and when did  people know.Putting aside the entire Kingdom.Let's add Robert and Ned to that group.

At the point in time when Robert killed Lyanna.Two things are true to him.He didn't know Lyanna was missing,or he thought she was dead because he sure didn't make a query about where she was.So the former is likely the case.At that point he didn't know she was missing.

I'm assuming you meant Rhaegar there.

As to Robert, first, we don't know for sure whether or not he made queries about Lyanna - he 'swore to kill Rhaegar', so maybe he didn't care about questioning him first, but it's not like we have a detailed account of the whole encounter. All we know is it ended with Robert killing Rhaegar - it might have started with Robert demanding to know where Lyanna was. Of course, him acting before he thinks is also a possibility - it wouldn't exactly be out of character for him.

Second, it was a friggin' battle. You can't thoroughly question someone in the middle of a battlefield. And it didn't sound like taking him prisoner was an option either.

“You took a wound from Rhaegar,” Ned reminded him. “So when the Targaryen host broke and 
ran, you gave the pursuit into my hands. The remnants of Rhaegar’s army fled back to King’s Landing.

Also, their duel seems to have decided the outcome of the battle:

“Your brother Rhaegar brought as many men to the Trident,” Ser Jorah admitted, “but of that 
number, no more than a tenth were knights. The rest were archers, freeriders, and foot soldiers armed 
with spears and pikes. When Rhaegar fell, many threw down their weapons and fled the field.”

Third, if he didn't know she was missing, then why did he want her back, why was he worried about her safety, and what did he think Rhaegar did to her?

“The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown . . . it was the girl I prayed them for. Your 
sister, safe . . . and mine again, as she was meant to be.”

So I agree that ideally Robert should have asked about Lyanna if he knew she was missing. But given the circumstances, and no evidence that he didn't ask, and evidence that he did know she was missing (or at least in some sort of potential danger), it takes some serious mental gymnastics to conclude that he didn't know.

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Same goes for Ned. At the point in time when he left Robert to fight the rest of the war in the South.Given his internal monologue he didn't know she was missing,he knew she wasn't missing and was complicit in her disppearance,the rumor of Lyanna(whatever it was) had only to do with getting Brandon to react like he did at the tourney and all the fruits of that served as a cover for he death in the end.I favor the latter with a drizzle of Ned hiding his sister.

Nanother he mentions Lyanna's death in that sentence yes,but at the time when this actually happened he had a goal and the goal was not to go find his sister and he could have if she was indeed missing(KL had fallen and the Loyalists were dropping their banners one by one) If she wasn't missing then he has nothing to worry about and he could go about his work at ease;you see what i mean.

I see what you mean, but you're providing solution to a problem that isn't there. First, his internal monologue doesn't tell us he didn't know Lyanna was missing, let alone support Ned being complicit in her disappearance (also, it's not clear, are you suggesting he tricked his own brother into getting himself killed???)

Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna’s death, and the grief they had shared over her passing. 

'To' doesn't even have to mean 'for the purpose of'. All it has to mean is that fighting the last battles was the thing he did next. But even if it does mean 'purpose', it still doesn't tell us anything about him being at ease or not, or about his internal thougths at the time.

Second, no he wasn't free to go after Lyanna. The above quote tells us that there were still battles to fight. Those Loyalists were dropping their banners precisely because Ned showed up with his army. He was one of the top ranking people in the rebellion. He can't just turn his back on it.

Third, if you don't choose to explain away all those little things suggesting that Lyanna was in Dorne, fighting those last battles in the south might actually have been necessary to clear the way to Lyanna.

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As to where Lyanna might have been:

“Do you have no women here?” “Not at present,” said Narbert. “Those women who do visit come to us sick or hurt, or heavy with child. .............. “We have some modest cottages set aside for the women who visit us, be they noble ladies or common village girls,” said the Elder Brother. “They are not oft used, but we keep them clean and dry. Lady Brienne, would you allow me to show you the way.

I absolutely love the idea of Lyanna hiding on Quiet Isle. I half hope that it turns out to be the case somehow. But it's one clue against

  • the Appendix of the books (saying she died in the Red Mountains)
  • ToJ dream (+parallel dreams) suggesting Lyanna's death has at least something to do with ... whatever the KG were doing there
  • Wylla being in service of the Daynes
  • some other things that I'm too tired to try to recall ATM, I think the above are the strongest ones

So for now I'm going with 'Lyanna was in Dorne'.

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On 24/09/2016 at 2:17 PM, Voice said:

While it is true the books are mysterious, enigmatic, and raise more questions than answers, we cannot dismiss that Rhaegar himself gave us the answer to the mystery of the identity of tptwp.

I agree, we should not dismiss the fact that he said Aegon was tptwp. Certainly that's the last identification of tptwp that we know about.

However, I don't think that we should dismiss the incongruity of his actions with the idea that he believed Aegon to be the most important person on Planetos.

Something seems to have come up that he deemed important enough for him to leave Aegon's side for more than a year, and to put aside his plans for dealing with the Aerys problem. Sure, that might be just him being deeply irresponsible. Alternatively, shouldn't we consider the possibility that what we are told about Rhaegar isn't that far from the truth, and he found something he deemed more important than Aegon?

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Rhaegar tells us himself, in no uncertain terms (see Mel/Stannis/Aemon's uncertainty for contrast), that Aegon is tptwp. Then, the rebellion erupts. Then, Rhaegar tells us himself, in no uncertain terms, that he means to call a council and make some changes.

If Rhaegar was burdened by duty, his duty at the time was not to knock up Robert's betrothed. Even if he wanted to sire a hero to save the world, he first needs to end the civil war or there might not be a realm left to save. 

The civil war didn't start until well after he'd abducted Lyanna, and he DID go off to try to end the civil war before things went too far. After all, it was only after the Battle of the Bells that the seriousness of the rebellion seems to have sunk in at King's Landing. About the time people seem to have started taking the rebellion really seriously, Rhaegar did indeed try to end it.

The country was bleeding even before the Rebellion. Aerys was not a good king. Yet Rhaegar's words to Jaime indicate that he'd meant to call the council some time back, but other things got in the way. Presumably whatever those things were, he considered them important enough to let the realm bleed a while for.

If it was just a matter of, as you put it, finding the time to "knock up Robert's betrothed", then Rhaegar was indeed far less responsible than we have been lead to believe. That's possible, of course. However it's good reason to suspect that whatever Rhaegar was up to, he considered it to be of vital importance to the realm.

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While I agree there is plenty precedent for Targaryen zealots, I think you might be overstating the "duty" angle. We do not yet know enough about Aegon's mental state at Summerhall to assume he was acting out of duty. And I think Dany's story is the perfect example of how a messianic complex will detract from a sense of duty, rather than strengthen it.

Dany believes she has a duty to the people of Meereen, a duty to be the "mhysa" to the slaves. 

Of Aegon, we are told:

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 Though friends and counselors sought to dissuade him, King Aegon grew ever more convinced that only with dragons would he ever wield sufficient power to make the changes he wished to make in the realm and force the proud and stubborn lords of the Seven Kingdoms to accept his decrees.
The last years of Aegon’s reign were consumed by a search for ancient lore about the dragon breeding of Valyria, and it was said that Aegon commissioned journeys to places as far away as Asshai-by-the-Shadow with the hopes of finding texts and knowledge that had not been preserved in Westeros.
What became of the dream of dragons was a grievous tragedy born in a moment of joy. In the fateful year 259 AC, the king summoned many of those closest to him to Summerhall...

The World of Ice & Fire  

Aegon believed he could do more good for the realm if he had dragons, and the quest for it consumed him.

This Targ messiah complex comes in different forms. Viserys believed that duty was owed to him. Obviously that's the darker side of it. In the case of Aegon & Dany, it's more like they believe themselves to be the ones that owe a duty, if only because they think they're the only people capable of doing it.

I think it's entirely feasible that Rhaegar could follow the light side of the Targ and still turn out to have acted like a massive ass. 

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Well, that isn't true at all if Lyanna is indeed Jon's mother.

If Lyanna is Jon's mother, then obviously, Ned thinks about her all the time.

But not as Jon's mother. The question of Jon's parentage appears to be absent from Ned's thoughts.

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And if his guilts are related to that parentage, then clearly, Ned thinks of Lyanna so often because she is Jon's mother, rather than because she is his dead sister. By comparison, he doesn't think of brother Brandon very often, nor of his own mother and father.

Lyanna haunts him. Rhaegar does not.

The promises he made to her are what haunts Ned, whatever they are.

If the reason why Ned thinks about Lyanna so often is that she is Jon's mother, then we should be getting a similar amount of guilt-related thoughts about the father, but they seem to be absent. Mother and father will both share that aspect of being Jon's parents, but only Lyanna got the promises, and only Lyanna haunts Ned.

 

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That forget-ability makes sense if Rhaegar is just a dead prince.

It doesn't make sense if Rhaegar is Jon's true father and Ned has been protecting Rhaegar's dragonspawn from Robert.

(snip)

So while Ned thinks of Rhaegar often, it is the lack of substance, emotion, and gravitas of those thoughts that stands out to me. Compared to the amount of sadness in his thoughts for Lyanna (and Jon), I think the contrast itself makes for a compelling argument against the theory that Rhaegar is Jon's father.

But given there is no commensurate sadness in his thoughts for a potential male parent, doesn't that argue in favour of the father being someone who Ned found easy to forget?  I think you just made an argument in favour of Rhaegar. :D 

Now before you say it, yes I know, Ned's thoughts about Arthur are tinged with sadness. However it's nowhere near close to commensurate with his sad thoughts about Lyanna, and there are other very good reasons for him to feel a bit of sadness about Arthur. What's more, he thinks of Arthur significantly less often than he thinks of Rhaegar. 

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And yes, regarding Ned's own mistakes... we completely agree. One wonders why those 3KG haunt him so, when Rhaegar does not.

Ned didn't kill Rhaegar when he felt it was entirely needless yet unavoidable to do so. And he didn't cause the love of his life to jump out of a tower by doing so, either.

That would be my guess.

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I'm unhappy with it as well, but to be honest, it is a far more believable and GRRM-like version of RLJ than the idea that it was consensual.

But then, thankfully, it is made implausible by Ned's own lack of thought and emotion toward Rhaegar... Rhaegar's own dutiful approach to politics... as well as Lyanna's own intelligence, wolf blood, and her ability to defend herself.

So while we disagree on some substantive issues, we may both breathe a sigh of relief on this one I think. :cheers:

Yep! :D I think given that factor of what's GRRM-like, we should probably anticipate something that falls into the "it's complicated" category. No simple kidnap & rape, but no fairy-tale love story either. Something in the middle. 

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So we have Lyanna playing the part of "Lyanna," and Elia playing the part of "girl in the Vale"

Rhaegar would be in the role of "Robert," who has left a child in the bed of "Elia in the Vale."

And Lyanna as "Lyanna," would be protesting the idea of betrothing Rhaegar as "Robert," and simultaneously condemning him for wanting her after leaving a child with "Elia in the Vale."

This is where our disagreement over this passage hits the buffers. 

Nope, Rhaegar is not in the role of Robert. Because Lyanna is not condemning Robert for wanting her after leaving a child with the girl in the Vale. 

When Lyanna brings up the girl in the Vale, Ned's response is to tell Lyanna that Robert's skirt-chasing is in the past. If Lyanna, as you suggest, was condemning Robert for wanting her after the child in the vale, then Ned's argument would be entirely irrelevant and have no place in their discussion. Lyanna doesn't suggest that it's too late, and that what happened in the past is the problem. She talks about the future. 

Try thinking about how that passage would work if Lyanna DID believe that love could change a man's nature. Her problem with Robert is because she believes that love cannot change a man's nature. If love would change Robert's nature, then Lyanna would not have a problem with Robert. Thus the child in the vale is not in itself a problem for Lyanna. It's what the child in the vale represents for a man of Robert's nature that is the problem. 

Equally, Elia would not have to be a problem for Lyanna, if she believed that Rhaegar did not share Robert's nature that needed changing for Robert to be acceptable. 

 

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If Ned had murdered Jeyne/Jayne's father and brother, and if Jeyne/Jayne were 13-14 years old and betrothed, and if Robb were 7-8 years her senior and married, then I would agree that they represent a fitting counter-parallel to that of Sansa+Joffrey/Tyrion. Otherwise, not so much.

Jeyne became pregnant about the same age as Lyanna, so I don't think that complaint works. You're shifting the goal-posts, though. I brought up Jayne as a counter to your argument that unlike in Verona, Westeros would not have such star-crossed lovers. 

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That's a pretty big slight my friend. If I stole your child, would that not be a slight upon your house?

If you eloped with my daughter, I would consider it quite likely that she wouldn't be cursing you for a villain for having eloped with her father's daughter. :P

 

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And, as I said the last time we had this debate, if Rhaegar left Elia's bed to spend time in Lyanna's bed, that means we can divine from the magic of mathematics, that Rhaegar never kept to one bed. He merely spent time in Elia's bed, then he spent time in Lyanna's.

Your mathematics is faulty. Who's bed was Rhaegar planning to hop to after Lyanna's? 

"Robert will never keep to one bed" means that at no point in time will Robert be satisfied with one lover.

 If I knew you had a cigarette last week, would that prove that "Voice will never give up smoking"? Obviously not. 

 

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This should effectively end the debate on the matter as far as I'm concerned. But I have a sneaking suspicion it won't.

It won't until you get the point that Lyanna was not objecting to Robert having had sex before marriage, she was objecting to Robert's nature meaning that he would continue to sleep around after marriage. :P

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We will have to agree to disagree on this. Considering the mortality rate of Westerosi mothers, to suggest that Rhaegar did not put Lyanna in danger by impregnating her is simply an untenable position in my mind.

Sure he put her at risk. That's universally the case with pregnancies in Westeros, yet people do it anyway. It's a risk in our world too, though a much lesser one. People make a judgement knowing it's a risk, and generally go ahead and do it. 

 

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That Rhaegar was willing to steal Lyanna from her family in order to test those odds is misogynistic, especially if the reason he was willing to endanger a child-woman was for the sake of a prophecy he had already gotten wrong, twice.

That really just isn't what the word misogynistic means, but that really isn't getting us anywhere. I'm not trying to defend Rhaegar's actions!

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I agree with you in that a pregnant 15 year old is within the range of normal, but to call a 12 or 13 year old "a little young" is a bit of an overstatement.

Perhaps, but it's still the lower end of that range of normal by Westerosi standards, and Lyanna's still several years older than that. In the case of Sansa and Dany the question is raised of individual tastes -- Drogo might like his girls older, Tyrion does like his girls older. However nobody raises a moral question.

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And notably, we've seen no married lords seek societal acceptance for their attempt to bed a betrothed, highborn, child-woman.

 Rhaegar didn't seek societal acceptance for making off with Lyanna. The question was whether Lyanna's age would be a problem for Rhaegar, and I suggest that as he was following the norms of his society by bedding a 15-year-old, there is no reason to assume that it would be. Or that Rhaegar was any more creepy-paedo than most people in Westeros.

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Not exactly. Our books never say that Rhaegar was certain he himself was tptwp, only that he shared Aemon's view when he was a kid.

There's a difference between sharing someone's belief when you were young, and speaking with conviction as an adult.

You're applying a difference that's not present in the text. We only heard it reported that Rhaegar believed that he was tptwp, we have no information on how strong his convictions are. He may have been more convinced when he thought it was himself than when he thought it was Aegon.

That he "only shared Aemon's view when he was a kid" is also not present in the text. "He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son" suggests that he didn't stop believing it until he became convinced it was actually Aegon who was tptwp. So he shared Aemon's view when he was an adult, too. 

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The bed of his wife (that's 1) and the bed of Robert's betrothed (that's 2).

"Never" means you can't stop counting at 2, and there is zero indication of that.

Rhaegar slept in 2 beds, Robert in hundreds, and it doesn't seem even slightly suspect to you to consider these comparable?

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And, while canonical reinforcement for a relationship between Ashara Dayne and Rhaegar is thin, it isn't zero. Ashara's brother was Rhaegar's closest friend.

Doesn't that make Rhaegar Tywin's son? :D

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Yup. And if R+L=J is in fact true, then we know that Rhaegar was prone to leaving the beds of women once they grew ill.

To the same extent that that Bran was prone to falling off walls, sure. Or that Ned was prone to frightening Cat. 

Doing something once does not make you prone to doing it.

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From wikipedia

Misogyny (/mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is the hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women or girls. Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including social exclusion, sex discrimination, hostility, androcentrism, patriarchy, and male privilege ideas, belittling of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women. Misogyny can be found occasionally within ancient texts relating to various mythologies. In addition, various influential Western philosophers and thinkers have been described as misogynistic.

Read the first sentence of that definition. You've taken the list of possible manifestations as the definition. They are not exclusive to misogyny, and thus do not define it. 

However this is an argument about language, not about ASOIAF.

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But you have used true love here repeatedly, and not only as a possibility, but as an argument for rebuttal.

Only to rebut claims of exclusive possibilities. In other words, when someone says "x must be so", to show that "x does not have to be so if love was part of the equation" is sufficient to disprove the initial contention, so long as it cannot be show that love was not part of the equation.

 

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I personally would prefer we use canon-only for rebuttals, as it would raise the bar for debate. But I do understand if canon is inadequate for this argument. ;)

Canon and analytical logic. If a theory depends on a logical fallacy, such as an excluded middle, or demands exclusivity when there is none, there is no necessity to refer to canon to reveal the flaws in the theory. 

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To be honest, I am surprised that so many supporters of the theory have no doubt in it at all. Theories should never feel "proven." They should feel "tested." Doubt is what creates the tests. Based upon some of these points I have raised, I think it requires a certain amount of faith to not have doubts about RLJ. At times, it seems as though the pieces that don't fit are reshaped to fit.

I do agree. We simply DO NOT KNOW. We can sum the evidence and feel like there is an extremely strong case, but there's certainly scope for something else to have happened, whatever theory we follow. 

However I'd say you've reshaped pieces to not fit. Not intentionally, of course. It's just that we differ in the way we've interpreted some things, so to me they seem to fit and to you they don't. Vive la différence!

 

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11 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I at least have a mention relating them to the same place, canyou claim as much?

See above.

You mean, all those people who say that Rhaegar loved Lyanna but whom you handwave as "not in the know"?

And the context of her being repeatedly depicted as wearing that particular QoLaB crown means apparently nothing, right? Please, do show us wearing something from Robert.

Except that this reasoning is unsupported by the text. It is not stated if people arrived at the conclusion, or if they, you know, knew for a fact.

Yeah? And Allyria Dayne or Alys Karstark is home because...? And what brought about the change from the betrothed girl staying at her home mere fourteen years ago, like Cat did? Doesn't Sansa' or Margaery's presence in KL have anything to do with the fact that their betrothed is a king and that they need to get accustomed with the court or any other political reasons?

Besides, in the society that insists on the bride to be a virgin, sending her to spend the time in her betrothed's house way before their wedding would be rather coutnerproductive.

You mean, he knew her well enough for her brother to point out that he didn't know her at all?

And you apparently never considered the effects of unfulfilled longing, unattanaible ideal in a fucked up life and obsession over what you cannot have. But you are right that from that particular scene, we cannot be sure if Lyanna loved her brother as much as he loved her. 

It tells us nothing about Lyanna's feelings towards Robert. No matter how great one's feelings are, there is no guarantee that they will be reciprocated.

Sigh. No, a drinking contest doesn't say anything about a relationship - what does say something is the author's decision to show two people who are to be married not interacting at the single known moment when they are both on the scene.

Because that's the way the author might want to indicate that the two people in a relationship know and appreciate each other, instead of, you know, stating that one never really knew the other. We don't even know if Robert knew that Lyanna liked to spar.

Because every woman likes riding and sparring and - oh, wait. So, this tomboy girl, who is nothing like the typical ladies who listen to Rhaegar's songs, has a reaction which for another tomboy, who happens to be Lyanna's spitting image, would be highly untypical. And you don't see it. Okay.

That's what we know about Robert from AGOT already. How about some steady influx of new information, like we are learning about Rhaegar?

Surprisingly, not everything revels around Jon Snow. I am asking about the information for the reader,  to be able to piece the mystery together.

Could you point me to where Jon draws to any Robert parallels, like he does e.g. with Ned? 

And which other warriors and princes were Ned's childhood friends at whose side he fought for his very life? Just above, you talked about insights into human minds and emotions and what not, yet you seem unable to grasp the basic reasons why Ned might want to talk about Robert more frequently than other warriors and princes. Try harder.

Oh, yes. Presenting your best buddy whom you love as a brother in a positive light is such an unusual deal that he definitely must be Jon's father. Sheesh. In what other light do you think Ned should present him?

“If the wildlings attack, the king will come and help us, won’t he? He’s a mighty warrior, King Robert. He’s sure to come. Maester Aemon sent him a bird.”
There was no use telling him that Robert Baratheon was dead. He would forget it, as he’d forgotten it before. “Maester Aemon sent him a bird,” Jon agreed. That seemed to make Owen happy. (Owen the Oaf)

...

And through the smoke another wedge of armored riders came, on barded horses. Floating above them were the largest banners yet, royal standards as big as sheets; a yellow one with long pointed tongues that showed a flaming heart, and another like a sheet of beaten gold, with a black stag prancing and rippling in the wind.
Robert, Jon thought for one mad moment, remembering poor Owen, but when the trumpets blew again and the knights charged, the name they cried was “Stannis! Stannis! STANNIS!”
Jon turned away, and went inside the tent.

 

Here you go why Jon thinks for a moment that it was Robert (and BTW, it doesn't say he thought so with hope). His turning away might point towards disapointment, though it would be hard to feel disappointed by one dead not turning up, but there are more compelling reasons, like finding out Dalla's condition, as well as the supposed Horn of Winter, which was on Jon's mind shortly prior: "Jon took a step toward the tent, thinking of the Horn of Winter, but the shadowcat blocked him, tail lashing".

 

All in all, you're still beinding the book to your theory instead of building your theory on that which is actually in the book.

1.They were at the tourney of Harrenhall .....Same place.A place that Harwin tells us hookups might have been going on.

2.Still waiting for your servants to tell me that Lyanna and Rhaegar stayed ( handwave)

3.Ygrain all these people who are saying "Rhaegar loved Lyanna" where did they get that information?Is it something they know directly or is it something they guessed because:

a.He crowned her QOLAB and to them based on their society they percieved it as a romantic gesture.Coulpled with:

b. He supposedly ran off with her which is another rumor?

4.Ygrain...You are using Rhaegar's crowning absent context of what it might have meant and shall we put the context of these pale blue roses on the fore after Rhaegar crowned her with them.

"Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost."

a.“Her {Cersei’s} eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, <snip>. “The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister’s name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna.”Ned thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep.—Ned,GoT, pg. 480.------

b.The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna.

c."He was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. “Promise me, Ned, “ Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood."

d.Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.
Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses."

I would say it means something,but i don't think it may mean what you think it does.

5.Everything in context Ygrain. This is what Ned actually said.“You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert.”

This is neither a qualitative or quantitative statement by Ned which is indicating that Robert had a different relationship with Lyanna than Ned had with her. Or Ned saw things about Lyanna's behavior that Robert never saw.i.e. Robert never got to see a vext Lyanna.He never got to experiance his iron side.

6. Ygrain,this statement that Robert behaved the way he did because he was obsessed and miserable because he never had her is not something i failed to consider.However, an obsessive behavior toward Lyanna isn't supported by any character at all.Least of all Robert who said this: 

“The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown ... it was the girl I prayed them for. Your sister, safe ... and mine again, as she was meant to be.”

Robert is saying that Lyanna was his,indicating intimacy the phraseology and lingusitic application from this quote and others i've mention shows intimacy between people.Your ignoring this just because you want to,instead of being honest that this is a possibility based on what i've shown.Based on the theme and text in the series.

7.Ygrain the text doesn't have to say that people arrived at a particular conclusion because of X.Comphrension and being able to trace the origins by what people say will tell us that. In all stances Be it Barristan,Kevan,Cersie,it starts at one moment in time.

a.Rhaegar crowning Lyanna was seen as a romantice gesture.

b.The rumour that he ran off with or abducted her, put the icing on that cake.

None of theme mention anything else except these two moments in time.That's all they have to go on,and that's the basis for their conclusion.

8. False equivalent Ygrain,the circumstance for Alys and Allia compared to Lyanna would was very different you know that right? Plus,this society like the one it imitates have no problem with the bride to be going to be with the groom.i.e. Sansa was allowed to spend time with Joff and she was heading to his home.It wouldn't be out of the ordinary for Lyanna to go to the Vale.Her brother was there after all.

9.Ned's behavior and his description of said behavior how he spoke says that Robert's feelings were reciprocated.Among other things...One doesn't envoke a loved one to cause someone to behave a certain way unless they were a loved one.

10. What GRRM showed was two people having a good time and comfortable being themselves or being happy and engaing of the people in their surroundings in each other's presence.

We have Joff and Sansa interacting at the feast before the Hand's tourney.Joff was very nice,sweet feeding her with his fingers until Robert started to yell.But before that does their interacting in that manner a true depiction of their relationship?

Was Dany and Khal Drogo? She "felt" he ignored her and she felt very alone. The point is Ygrain your thinking that Lyanna was being ignored by obert is subjective.She may not have felt that way at all.She didn't act that way did she?Was she in a corner with a long face? No.

11. Ygrain,it was a song. A freaking song playes by a really talented musician that made any woman cry? That's what his songs did.It doesn't mean that every woman that heard him play instantly wanted to drop draws for the dude on account of a song.Yeah i get that singers in this story got a lot of play,and its fine if you want to see Lyanna in that regard.I choose to see her like Arya who would not have been sawyed by a song.

12. What knew info are we hearing about Rhaegar? I'm at a loss to this steady influx of info about him. Did GRRM come out with a new book with more info about Rhaegar that we didn't know.The point is relevance.Who is this info relevant to? Rhaegar and any info involving him has only been relevant and given to one person...Dany. Likewise information regarding Robert has been given to one major character...Jon.

13.I know not everything surrounds Jon Snow,there are bigger mysteries afoot. But the question you are asking is a subjective one based on the 5 books we have. What you see and what i see as clues is aubjective."You can bring a horse to water,but you can't make it drink."It is my opnion that you and others are missing subtly of the text.The flow of the story is different in your eyes than it is in mine.

14.Parallels between Robert and Jon.

 

Spoiler

 

”He swallowed nervously and said, “Jon, could there be honor in a lie, if it were told for a … a good purpose?”

It would depend on the lie and the purpose, I suppose.” Jon looked at Sam. “I wouldn’t advise it. You’re not made to lie, Sam.”----Jon Snow to Sam Tarly

“Robert slapped Ned on the back.”Ah, say that I'm a better king than Aerys and be done with it. You never could lie for love nor honor, Ned Stark. -----Robert Baratheon to Ned Stark

-          Here we have Jon and Robert speaking to their best friends on honor, lies and how seemingly horrible they are at lying. We know that Ned and Sam kept something from their pals.

We all know what my brother would do. Robert would gallop up to the gates of Winterfell alone, break them with his Warhammer, and ride through the rubble to slay Roose Bolton with his left hand and the Bastard with his right…..”

 “This creature who makes cloaks from the skins of women has sworn to cut my heart out, and I mean to make him answer for those words <snip>.“The Night’s Watch will make for Hardhome. I ride to Winterfell alone…….. I have my swords, thought Jon Snow, and we are coming for you, Bastard.”

-          Well what Robert would have done, is what Jon was on his way to doing before he got shanked.

"I will kill every Targaryen I can get my hands on, until they are as dead as their dragons, and then I will piss on their graves."

 ” Jon took the letter back. “Why would he help us now? <Snip> “Well,” said Sam, “That would bring scorn down upon House Lannister.” “It’s death and destruction I want to bring down upon House Lannister, not scorn.” Jon lifted up the letter. (Jon to Sam affc.)

-          Robert and Jon emotionally go too far there thoughts of revenge aren’t singular.

“It was the king's voice that put an end to it . . . the king's voice and twenty swords. Jon Arryn had told them that a commander needs a good battlefield voice, and Robert had proved the truth of that on the Trident. He used that voice now. "STOP THIS MADNESS," he boomed, "IN THE NAME OF YOUR KING!"

“He has a lord’s voice, Jon thought. His father had always said that in battle a captain’s lungs were as important as his sword arm. “It does not matter how brave or brilliant a man is, if his commands cannot be heard,”

“The wall will stop them," Jon heard himself say. He turned and said it again louder. "The wall will stop them. <snip> they cannot pass. THEY CANNOT PASS!"

-          Linked by the use of the same lessons thought by Arryn and execution that’s commanding.

there was no one to stop Jon drinking as much as he had a thirst for to the raucous delight of the youths around him, who urged him on every time he drained a glass. They were fine company, and Jon relished the stories they were telling, tales of battle and bedding and the hunt.”

“After all had been seated, toasts were made, thanks were given and returned, and then the feasting began. Jon had started drinking then, and he had not stopped.”

“He said little, looking out over the hall with hooded eyes, seeing nothing. Two seats away, the king had been drinking heavily all night. His broad face was flushed behind his great black beard. He made many a toast, laughed loudly at every jest, and attacked each dish like a starving man,”(agat,Jon 1).

-          This is a bit of visual parallelism going on here and some mirroring with Jon making an observation about Robert’s state and actions while being in said state and doing the same thing himself.

“I’ve watched you fight. It’s not training with you. Put a good edge on your sword, and they’d be dead meat; you know it, I know it, they know it (Jon,AGOT).”    

The song of steel on steel woke a hunger in Jon. It reminded him of warmer, simpler days, when he had been a boy at Winterfell matching blades with Robb….(Jon ADWD).”

“In the end Halder and Horse had to pull him away from Iron Emmett, one man on either arm. The ranger sat on the ground dazed, his shield half in splinters, the visor of his helm knocked askew, and his sword six yards away. "Jon, enough," Halder was shouting, "he's down, you disarmed him. Enough!"

He (Rhaegar) never liked the song of swords the way Robert did or Jamie Lannister Dany,acok)”

Seven hells Ned I want to hit someone.”Robert to Ned Agot.

He remembered Brandon’s laughter, and Robert’s berserk valor in the melee, the way he laughed as he unhorsed men left and right.”

They both love the song of swords and have tendencies toward Berserker behavior

 

Both have experiances that are very similar and what we have seen is that in some cases Jon's choices were different than Robert's

15. Ygrain,Ned is talking about warriors and Princes in general...That includes Rhaegar.

16.Ygrain,sure the author have had Jon tell us Ned spoke to him often about Robert just because. Or and throwing it out there.Subtly,Ned could have been telling Jon about Robert because that's the only way he could tell Jon about his father without actually telling Jon Robert is his father. It was the very next best think.Having him be a hero to Jon.Its not about presenting Robert in a certain light,its about doing the only thing he could do.Telling Jon how great of a warrior Robert was etc.And to be accurate...speaking to Jon about Robert frequently would have gone beyond the battle on the Trident.That's an hour tops.

17.Ygrain i'm not denying where Jon got the idea and from whom...You don't ofcourse see between the lines.You don't see the connection with Ned's story to how Jon reacted when it dawned on him out of that mad moment that it wasn't Robert?

 

4 hours ago, nanother said:

 

As to Robert, first, we don't know for sure whether or not he made queries about Lyanna - he 'swore to kill Rhaegar', so maybe he didn't care about questioning him first, but it's not like we have a detailed account of the whole encounter. All we know is it ended with Robert killing Rhaegar - it might have started with Robert demanding to know where Lyanna was. Of course, him acting before he thinks is also a possibility - it wouldn't exactly be out of character for him.

Second, it was a friggin' battle. You can't thoroughly question someone in the middle of a battlefield. And it didn't sound like taking him prisoner was an option either.

“You took a wound from Rhaegar,” Ned reminded him. “So when the Targaryen host broke and 
ran, you gave the pursuit into my hands. The remnants of Rhaegar’s army fled back to King’s Landing.

Also, their duel seems to have decided the outcome of the battle:

“Your brother Rhaegar brought as many men to the Trident,” Ser Jorah admitted, “but of that 
number, no more than a tenth were knights. The rest were archers, freeriders, and foot soldiers armed 
with spears and pikes. When Rhaegar fell, many threw down their weapons and fled the field.”

Third, if he didn't know she was missing, then why did he want her back, why was he worried about her safety, and what did he think Rhaegar did to her?

“The gods be damned. It was a hollow victory they gave me. A crown . . . it was the girl I prayed them for. Your 
sister, safe . . . and mine again, as she was meant to be.”

So I agree that ideally Robert should have asked about Lyanna if he knew she was missing. But given the circumstances, and no evidence that he didn't ask, and evidence that he did know she was missing (or at least in some sort of potential danger), it takes some serious mental gymnastics to conclude that he didn't know.

I see what you mean, but you're providing solution to a problem that isn't there. First, his internal monologue doesn't tell us he didn't know Lyanna was missing, let alone support Ned being complicit in her disappearance (also, it's not clear, are you suggesting he tricked his own brother into getting himself killed???)

Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna’s death, and the grief they had shared over her passing. 

'To' doesn't even have to mean 'for the purpose of'. All it has to mean is that fighting the last battles was the thing he did next. But even if it does mean 'purpose', it still doesn't tell us anything about him being at ease or not, or about his internal thougths at the time.

Second, no he wasn't free to go after Lyanna. The above quote tells us that there were still battles to fight. Those Loyalists were dropping their banners precisely because Ned showed up with his army. He was one of the top ranking people in the rebellion. He can't just turn his back on it.

Third, if you don't choose to explain away all those little things suggesting that Lyanna was in Dorne, fighting those last battles in the south might actually have been necessary to clear the way to Lyanna.

I absolutely love the idea of Lyanna hiding on Quiet Isle. I half hope that it turns out to be the case somehow. But it's one clue against

  • the Appendix of the books (saying she died in the Red Mountains)
  • ToJ dream (+parallel dreams) suggesting Lyanna's death has at least something to do with ... whatever the KG were doing there
  • Wylla being in service of the Daynes
  • some other things that I'm too tired to try to recall ATM, I think the above are the strongest ones

So for now I'm going with 'Lyanna was in Dorne'.

Robert talks about that encounter with Rhaegar,he talks about how killing Rhaegar didn't bring Lyanna back....He never once mentioned Lyanna's welfare.Which again brings me back to the points i made before with respect to him.At that moment Robert didn't know Lyanna was missing because.....

1.She wasn't missing and thus there was no need for him to question Rhaegar.

2.She was missing and Robert at that point in time didn't know Lyanna was in fact missing.

It is very possible that sometime after Rhaegar was killed Robert heard Lyanna was missing....Something i believe was the case.No mental gymnastics just identifying that information about Lyanna  wasn't tangential to when certain people might have heard about her disapprearence.

Now to what Ned's internal monologue might or might not mean and i think you are getting closer to what i'm trying to say.What your saying indirectly proves what i'm conveying; its the classic case of if R doesn't appear where it should be,at times when it should happen there is no R.

His internal monologue didn't go to Lyanna and her whereabouts because

1.She wasn't missing so there was no need to be concerned about that at all or bring her to mind because as far as Ned was concerned he knew where she was and she was more or less safe.

2. He didn't know she was missing at the time he left KL to fight the rest of the battles.

So looking at all (3) Brandon,Ned and Robert;there are moments where thoughts of a missing Lyanna should appear and didn't.

Oh no i'm not saying Ned was complicit in Brandon's death.I'm saying what Brandon heard about Lyanna may have had nothing to do with her actually having gone missing.It may have had to do with seeing how Brandon reacted at the tourney.

As to Ned being free to go and look for Lyanna or not......Again for me it comes back to.

1.Not thinking about her because there was not need to seeing as she was safe.

2.Didn't know Lyanna was missing at all.

With regard to where Lyanna was...I don't believe she was in Dorne more or less for the same reason you believe she was.

1.Non canonical source of dubious origin....Not the author

2. Non canonical source that doesn't have a POV origin and one that couldn't know any details about what happened.

3. A dream that the author warns us not to take literally.

 

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