Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

[nanother]

10 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

 

Robert talks about that encounter with Rhaegar,he talks about how killing Rhaegar didn't bring Lyanna back....He never once mentioned Lyanna's welfare.Which again brings me back to the points i made before with respect to him.At that moment Robert didn't know Lyanna was missing because.....

1.She wasn't missing and thus there was no need for him to question Rhaegar.

2.She was missing and Robert at that point in time didn't know Lyanna was in fact missing.

I notice that you're completely ignoring my points as to why Robert might have been concerned about Lyanna but still killed Rhaegar. I claim that your conclusion that Robert didn't know Lyanna was missing is based on faulty reasoning. Reciting the same point over and over without even attempting to address that concern won't make it any more convincing.

10 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Now to what Ned's internal monologue might or might not mean and i think you are getting closer to what i'm trying to say.What your saying indirectly proves what i'm conveying; its the classic case of if R doesn't appear where it should be,at times when it should happen there is no R.

His internal monologue didn't go to Lyanna and her whereabouts because

1.She wasn't missing so there was no need to be concerned about that at all or bring her to mind because as far as Ned was concerned he knew where she was and she was more or less safe.

2. He didn't know she was missing at the time he left KL to fight the rest of the battles.

So looking at all (3) Brandon,Ned and Robert;there are moments where thoughts of a missing Lyanna should appear and didn't.

Same as above. I gave alternative readings for that passage, to which you answer by re-stating your take on it. It's basically like saying 'you're wrong because I'm right'. Not sure why I still bother debating with you.

10 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

As to Ned being free to go and look for Lyanna or not......Again for me it comes back to.

1.Not thinking about her because there was not need to seeing as she was safe.

2.Didn't know Lyanna was missing at all.

Same as above, how does this address my point at all?

10 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

With regard to where Lyanna was...I don't believe she was in Dorne more or less for the same reason you believe she was.

1.Non canonical source of dubious origin....Not the author

2. Non canonical source that doesn't have a POV origin and one that couldn't know any details about what happened.

3. A dream that the author warns us not to take literally.

 

1. ??? Who do you think wrote the Appendices to the books if not Martin himself? It's pretty much canonical, whether you like it or not. And there's very little reason for Martin to lie there, too - it's not like the thing with Jon being listed as Ned's son, as Lyanna's place of death was never spelt out in the main text. He could just have left that bit of info out if he didn't want us to know.

2. ??? Ned Dayne can't know who his wetnurse was? He can't know that Wylla was the purported mother of Jon? And Ned Stark saying the name 'Wylla' when Robert was asking him about his 'misstep' is just an odd coincidence?

3. The suggetion is there nevertheless.

You can explain away any, or all of the above evidence if you like, sure. But you still have (at least) three pieces of evidence against that one comment about pregnant/ailing women, noble or common, hiding on Quiet Isle - which is just as easily explained away if one so chooses. I think it's very clear which set of evidence is stronger.

[JNR]

12 minutes ago, nanother said:

Who do you think wrote the Appendices to the books if not Martin himself? It's pretty much canonical, whether you like it or not. And there's very little reason for Martin to lie there, too - it's not like the thing with Jon being listed as Ned's son, as Lyanna's place of death was never spelt out in the main text. He could just have left that bit of info out if he didn't want us to know.

Not to speak for Wolfmaid -- my own opinion on this is simply that the appendices reflect the general knowledge of the readership/fanbase at the time the book was published.  

They're just a reference for us to use to keep track of the characters in this gigantic series.

In AGOT, Jon is presented as Ned's bastard, and we are certainly given reason to believe Lyanna died in the mountains of Dorne.  So that's what the AGOT appendix says.

But did she really die there?  Wouldn't surprise me, but I can't call it a settled matter based entirely on a fever dream that GRRM said might not be literal (and certainly was not literal -- it contains a storm of rose petals and a blood-streaked sky).  Is Jon really Ned's bastard?  Well, we shall see, but that doesn't quite seem a settled matter either. 

If a future book contains new revelations, on these or any other topics, then I would expect the appendix of that book to reflect those revelations at that time.  And if so, it will overturn the authority of all previous appendices.

[JNR]

However, I think I can say with confidence, and in flat contradiction of the recent fan video, that Lyanna was not found dying in the ToJ by Ned... while she was wearing a crown of bright blue roses that were cut two years before. 

[Lady Dyanna]

2 minutes ago, JNR said:

However, I think I can say with confidence, and in flat contradiction of the recent fan video, that Lyanna was not found dying in the ToJ by Ned... while she was wearing a crown of bright blue roses that were cut two years before. 

Oh, those weren't the same roses. Instructions were given to have a new crown made for her daily. You couldn't tell that from the scattered trail of ROYAL BLUE rose petals scattered about the birthing bed like it was the honeymoon suite?

[nanother]

14 minutes ago, JNR said:

Not to speak for Wolfmaid -- my own opinion on this is simply that the appendices reflect the general knowledge of the readership/fanbase at the time the book was published.  

They're just a reference for us to use to keep track of the characters in this gigantic series.

In AGOT, Jon is presented as Ned's bastard, and we are certainly given reason to believe Lyanna died in the mountains of Dorne.  So that's what the AGOT appendix says.

But did she really die there?  Wouldn't surprise me, but I can't call it a settled matter based entirely on a fever dream that GRRM said might not be literal (and certainly was not literal -- it contains a storm of rose petals and a blood-streaked sky).  Is Jon really Ned's bastard?  Well, we shall see, but that doesn't quite seem a settled matter either. 

If a future book contains new revelations, on these or any other topics, then I would expect the appendix of that book to reflect those revelations at that time.  And if so, it will overturn the authority of all previous appendices.

Yeah, that's probably so. Yet, in the Jon/Ned situation their father/son relationship was established as a fact in the text, and it's featured heavily throughout the books, so if he doesn't want to give away the deception (if there is one, of course), he can't say otherwise in the appendix, nor can he omit the info or cast doubt on it in any way. In the case of Lyanna, all that's established as fact is that she was Ned sister and Robert's fiancee. Any additional info is fairly obscure in the text so he could just not say anything about it the appendix. IF it's a deception, it's partly created by the appendix itself by confirming something that would have been just a vague conclusion otherwise.

That said, it's possible that all clues pointing to Dorne are false. I just think that the reasons to think Lyanna was there far outweigh the reasons to think that she was elsewhere.

6 minutes ago, JNR said:

However, I think I can say with confidence, and in flat contradiction of the recent fan video, that Lyanna was not found dying in the ToJ by Ned... while she was wearing a crown of bright blue roses that were cut two years before. 

Recent fan video? Do you have the link?

[wolfmaid7]

10 hours ago, nanother said:

I notice that you're completely ignoring my points as to why Robert might have been concerned about Lyanna but still killed Rhaegar. I claim that your conclusion that Robert didn't know Lyanna was missing is based on faulty reasoning. Reciting the same point over and over without even attempting to address that concern won't make it any more convincing.

Same as above. I gave alternative readings for that passage, to which you answer by re-stating your take on it. It's basically like saying 'you're wrong because I'm right'. Not sure why I still bother debating with you.

Same as above, how does this address my point at all?

1. ??? Who do you think wrote the Appendices to the books if not Martin himself? It's pretty much canonical, whether you like it or not. And there's very little reason for Martin to lie there, too - it's not like the thing with Jon being listed as Ned's son, as Lyanna's place of death was never spelt out in the main text. He could just have left that bit of info out if he didn't want us to know.

2. ??? Ned Dayne can't know who his wetnurse was? He can't know that Wylla was the purported mother of Jon? And Ned Stark saying the name 'Wylla' when Robert was asking him about his 'misstep' is just an odd coincidence?

3. The suggetion is there nevertheless.

You can explain away any, or all of the above evidence if you like, sure. But you still have (at least) three pieces of evidence against that one comment about pregnant/ailing women, noble or common, hiding on Quiet Isle - which is just as easily explained away if one so chooses. I think it's very clear which set of evidence is stronger.

@nanother 

1.I wasn't trying to ignore you,i thought i had answered,but i guess not.I would agree with you except for one thing. Rhaegar as a trigger is not even .5 degree of separation away from Robert calling Lyanna to mind.If at that moment he knew that Lyanna was taken by Rhaegar,then Rhaegar in front of him would have prompted him to ask that. His anger toward him would have gone hand in hand with why he would have asked Rhaegar...Where's Lyanna.

2.I'm not saying i'm right and your wrong at all,your view is something i've heard before.Its "the" rebuttal for this question.However, i think the implication doesn't saturate.Your interpretation was Ned couldn't go looking for his sister during war time.I'm not buying that and said why i don't think so,but i'll go with it for the sake of this conversation. As i pointed out,his internal monologue at the time he left KL to fight the rest of the battles didn't indicate his sister was missing.Nothing and it should have.It was a down time where he wasn't fighting at the moment.He was leaving KL,yet no thoughts towards a sister that was kidnapped.

3. My point about the appendices being dubious is it was written to reflect what characters "think they know" at the point in time of the story. And as we know the unreliable narrator is in play when it comes to these individuals.

4.You see this is the thing when we sa something so sweepingly.Ned saying the name Wylla was in the context of the woman he had the "one" midstep Ned made. So given this, isn't it obvious to anyone that read this that ofcourse Wylla would have been the mom without Robert saying "you know the one i mean your bastard's mother?" That latter offhand remark being an uneccessary distraction.Robert was fishing for more info and Ned.Plus it was classic misdirection.We went for that without asking what's the point if it was already stated that Ned had "one" indiscretion.

So its not coincident,but coincident of what.Ned had a bastard and he brought a woman to the Dayne who was a wetnurse.Who wouldn't go to that conclusion.Is it any different,than the Fisherman's daughter story who actually named Jon's snow as that woman's son?

5. Suggestion  or perception 

6.Its not a matter of "explaining away the evidence" its a matter of seeing another point of view that you don't have to do.Its subjective.For me i take into consideration that

a. GRRM cautions us that is a dream.He wouldn't have done so if there were elements to be weary of.

b.For example we have two  waking recollections.This one i will use , where we get what Ned did with the bodies.Built 8 cairns on the ridge.....and wrapped Lyanna's body to take home...Oops that's a variable that shouldn't be missing but is. We are talking about the dead at the tower and you in your recollection is one body short on what you did with it?

This isn't the only problem with Lyanna with the toj.

 

[J. Stargaryen]

Sorry for the long delay. I was gone for a few days.

On 9/19/2016 at 11:26 AM, Sly Wren said:

And I'm still not sure why Martin would actually give us words from Lyanna's mouth on the subject only to have it be hypocrisy. Ned calls her wolf-blooded, not hypocritical. 

The only thing worth writing about... is an answer.

Ned says Lyanna had the wolf blood, which he describes as a wildness. This was in comparison to Arya's own wildness. Ned didn't have the opportunity here, by way of comparison, to call Lyanna a hypocrite.

On 9/19/2016 at 11:26 AM, Sly Wren said:

And if we didn't have both the Bael Tale and the Blue Bard episode (sounds like a terrible reality show), I'd be more inclined to agree with you.

Game makes those roses sad but equivocal. Bael Tale makes it clear the rose is an insult, but that could still be equivocal.

But then we get the Blue Bard, whose only purpose in being all blue and rosy and bard-y seems to be to make him a symbol for the reader. And that symbol says the roses were an insult from the start.

And the World Book says Rhaegar was plotting. And the novels imply he was, too. And an insult/smack fits with what we have in Game, too.

So, seems like Martin's been telling us throughout the books what blue roses mean, especially when given by a man to rivals. An insult/attack.

Roses as an insult... maybe, to the men in the two cases. But what about the maidens?

[JNR]

2 hours ago, nanother said:

Recent fan video? Do you have the link?

Sure.

https://youtu.be/adYm-4-00UE

 

[JNR]

2 hours ago, Lady Dyanna said:

You couldn't tell that from the scattered trail of ROYAL BLUE rose petals scattered about the birthing bed like it was the honeymoon suite?

Are you saying it wasn't actually the honeymoon suite?  Heresy!

[wolfmaid7]

23 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Sorry for the long delay. I was gone for a few days.

The only thing worth writing about... is an answer.

Ned says Lyanna had the wolf blood, which he describes as a wildness. This was in comparison to Arya's own wildness. Ned didn't have the opportunity here, by way of comparison, to call Lyanna a hypocrite.

Roses as an insult... maybe, to the men in the two cases. But what about the maidens?

Well from Ned's recollection all smiles,dying meant from what he could see of the general view.Lyanna may very well be included in that.Ned was the one that took it from her lap.So she didn't touch it;therefore i don't think she looked favourably on Rhaegar's gesture.

No matter what we may think about what the roses meant;being like Arya as she was she might have been upset.

[J. Stargaryen]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Well from Ned's recollection all smiles,dying meant from what he could see of the general view.Lyanna may very well be included in that.Ned was the one that took it from her lap.So she didn't touch it;therefore i don't think she looked favourably on Rhaegar's gesture.

No matter what we may think about what the roses meant;being like Arya as she was she might have been upset.

I think it's fair to point out in response to my question that all the smiles died, but I don't think Ned actually reached for the crown. I think that's the point where it shifted from memory to dream.

Quote

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.
Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals the thorns lay hidden. He felt them clawing at his skin, sharp and cruel, saw the slow trickle of blood run down his fingers, and woke, trembling, in the dark.

Ned literally goes from remembering the crowning in one paragraph, to waking up in the next. And it's that next paragraph where he supposedly reached for the crown. To me that has always read as a figurative description of the consequences of the crowning. Ned wishing he could take back, or undo, it. But it was too late. To queen her is to kill her.

---

OT for this thread, but just wanted to mention quick. If you're interested in the possible astronomy angle/symbolism, you could interpret Rhaegar as the red comet -- “A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode” -- moving past the "sun" -- “Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell” -- to crown a/the moon (maiden). Not sure if @LmL has mentioned that or not.

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I think it's fair to point out in response to my question that all the smiles died, but I don't think Ned actually reached for the crown. I think that's the point where it shifted from memory to dream.

Ned literally goes from remembering the crowning in one paragraph, to waking up in the next. And it's that next paragraph where he supposedly reached for the crown. To me that has always read as a figurative description of the consequences of the crowning. Ned wishing he could take back, or undo, it. But it was too late. To queen her is to kill her.

---

OT for this thread, but just wanted to mention quick. If you're interested in the possible astronomy angle/symbolism, you could interpret Rhaegar as the red comet -- “A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode” -- moving past the "sun" -- “Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell” -- to crown a/the moon (maiden). Not sure if @LmL has mentioned that or not.

I disagree on the first.I don't think one moment happening in a different paragraph means anything.Its one fluid movement with Ned and it syncs with his emotions.So i have little doubt that he took the crown from her lap.The other descriptions of thorns and it clawing up his skin that's more of how Rhaegar's action made him feel.

As to the other symbolism.I have no problem with it.It is in a nutshell what Rhaegar did.He moved past his wife and crowned Lyanna.

[J. Stargaryen]

41 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I disagree on the first.I don't think one moment happening in a different paragraph means anything.Its one fluid movement with Ned and it syncs with his emotions.So i have little doubt that he took the crown from her lap.The other descriptions of thorns and it clawing up his skin that's more of how Rhaegar's action made him feel.

But it literally says "and woke." Whether Ned actually reached for the crown or not, that was part of a dream. Whereas the crowning was something Ned remembered.

41 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

As to the other symbolism.I have no problem with it.It is in a nutshell what Rhaegar did.He moved past his wife and crowned Lyanna.

I just wanted to make clear that it was an OT thought, and not an attempt to start a new line of OT conversation here.

[Sly Wren]

On September 27, 2016 at 0:14 PM, J. Stargaryen said:

Sorry for the long delay. I was gone for a few days.

The only thing worth writing about... is an answer.

Ned says Lyanna had the wolf blood, which he describes as a wildness. This was in comparison to Arya's own wildness. Ned didn't have the opportunity here, by way of comparison, to call Lyanna a hypocrite.

Well, are you thinking of a specific instance of Arya's hypocrisy to potentially compare to Lyanna's potential hypocrisy?

Plus, in the convo, Ned insists that Robert will change.

But she says, "love cannot change a man's nature." As though she has already assessed men. Has already drawn this conclusion and is applying it to Robert. like a maxim. So, it wouldn't be so much about her hypocrisy as her giving up this maxim.

But Arya seems to plant her feet pretty strongly in her convictions--about liars, etc. Seems like there's a good chance Lyanna was just as stubborn with her judgment.

On September 27, 2016 at 0:14 PM, J. Stargaryen said:

Roses as an insult... maybe, to the men in the two cases. But what about the maidens?

Well, if we also include the Blue Bard (who I can't think is in the books for anything other than a way for Martin to give us more info), the Blue-rose-scented Bard's use by Cersei is NOT liked by Marg.

And Ygritte puts a caveat on Baelette's love for Bael.

Plus, both Ned and the World Book make it clear the Starks were NOT happy with that crown form the start. And the novels do show that Lyanna was close to her family. And very loyal to the north (defense of Howland shows that).

So, if her family felt insulted by the roses, I think it's very likely Lyanna wasn't too thrilled, either.

[nanother]

 

21 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

@nanother 

1.I wasn't trying to ignore you,i thought i had answered,but i guess not.I would agree with you except for one thing. Rhaegar as a trigger is not even .5 degree of separation away from Robert calling Lyanna to mind.If at that moment he knew that Lyanna was taken by Rhaegar,then Rhaegar in front of him would have prompted him to ask that. His anger toward him would have gone hand in hand with why he would have asked Rhaegar...Where's Lyanna.

Agreed. And, as I said, he might very well have asked for all we know. Or was there a detailed eyewitness account of the full encounter somewhere in the books that I missed?

21 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

2.I'm not saying i'm right and your wrong at all,your view is something i've heard before.Its "the" rebuttal for this question.However, i think the implication doesn't saturate.Your interpretation was Ned couldn't go looking for his sister during war time.I'm not buying that and said why i don't think so,but i'll go with it for the sake of this conversation. As i pointed out,his internal monologue at the time he left KL to fight the rest of the battles didn't indicate his sister was missing.Nothing and it should have.It was a down time where he wasn't fighting at the moment.He was leaving KL,yet no thoughts towards a sister that was kidnapped.

To be clear, I can see why this can be seen as a clue towards Ned not being concerned about finding Lyanna, even though I don't think it very likely. What bothers me is your (apparent) insistence that it must be. There's one one particular reading of the text (and the situation, and Ned's character, and what GRRM is or isn't likely to do), fine. It's important to point that out, and it's a (very weak, in this specific case) evidence that the 'popular' reading might be wrong, but that doesn't make it the most fitting or the most likely interpretation. I don't think that Ned's immediate goal being wrapping up the war, or him not mentioning (in that context) that he was worried about Lyanna are particularly incompatible with him believing that she was abducted, unless you want them to be. Anyway, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this

21 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

3. My point about the appendices being dubious is it was written to reflect what characters "think they know" at the point in time of the story. And as we know the unreliable narrator is in play when it comes to these individuals.

That's a fair point. Although, as far as narrators go, Ned's knowledge about Lyanna's location is as reliable as you can get. Alas, he neglects to share it. Anyway, I explained to JNR above why I think it's more likely to be true than not, but I acknowledge the possibility that it's false.

21 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

4.You see this is the thing when we sa something so sweepingly.Ned saying the name Wylla was in the context of the woman he had the "one" midstep Ned made. So given this, isn't it obvious to anyone that read this that ofcourse Wylla would have been the mom without Robert saying "you know the one i mean your bastard's mother?" That latter offhand remark being an uneccessary distraction.Robert was fishing for more info and Ned.Plus it was classic misdirection.We went for that without asking what's the point if it was already stated that Ned had "one" indiscretion.

So its not coincident,but coincident of what.Ned had a bastard and he brought a woman to the Dayne who was a wetnurse.Who wouldn't go to that conclusion.Is it any different,than the Fisherman's daughter story who actually named Jon's snow as that woman's son?

Quite different, yes. That one is a nice round little story that we're told once. The Wylla thing is a small mystery to itself: we have Ned Stark naming her but with obvious reluctance. We don't hear any more about this mysterious Wylla until we meet Ned Dayne and learn that he's Jon's 'milk brother' through Wylla the wetnurse. But it's kind of odd - why do the Daynes appear to think Ned was in love with Ashara, married another woman and knocked up a third? Who's this Wylla and how did she wind up with the Daynes? Or with Ned? How is she connected to whatever the hell is going on with the Starks and Daynes?

Sure, Wylla could just be a red herring - some random woman who went with Ned to Starfall for whatever reason and ended up staying there as a wetnurse. But it doesn't seem likely to me.

21 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

5. Suggestion  or perception 

Very clearly a suggestion, IMO. Martin obviously intends us to think Lyanna was there. Whether it's legit clue or misdirection, that can be debated, but I think it'd be silly to deny that the suggestion is there.

And BTW the point I'm trying to make is not that it can be proven with 100% certainty that Lyanna was in Dorne - it can't for the reasons you brought up. The point is that the evidence for her being there is still far stronger than the evidence against.

21 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

6.Its not a matter of "explaining away the evidence" its a matter of seeing another point of view that you don't have to do.Its subjective.For me i take into consideration that

a. GRRM cautions us that is a dream.He wouldn't have done so if there were elements to be weary of.

b.For example we have two  waking recollections.This one i will use , where we get what Ned did with the bodies.Built 8 cairns on the ridge.....and wrapped Lyanna's body to take home...Oops that's a variable that shouldn't be missing but is. We are talking about the dead at the tower and you in your recollection is one body short on what you did with it?

This isn't the only problem with Lyanna with the toj.

You're arguing against something I didn't say. There are many places in Dorne besides ToJ. Mind you, I wouldn't exclude the possibility that she was indeed there, but it's not relevant to the matter at hand.

[J. Stargaryen]

10 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Well, are you thinking of a specific instance of Arya's hypocrisy to potentially compare to Lyanna's potential hypocrisy?

No. I think you're missing my point. Which is that it was not really an opportune moment for Ned to call Lyanna a hypocrite. In that instance he was comparing Arya and Lyanna's wildness-- wolf blood.

10 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Plus, in the convo, Ned insists that Robert will change.

But she says, "love cannot change a man's nature." As though she has already assessed men. Has already drawn this conclusion and is applying it to Robert. like a maxim. So, it wouldn't be so much about her hypocrisy as her giving up this maxim.

But Arya seems to plant her feet pretty strongly in her convictions--about liars, etc. Seems like there's a good chance Lyanna was just as stubborn with her judgment.

I feel like part of the disagreement here stems from whether or not you believe it would have been hypocritical for Lyanna to give that little speech and then sleep with Rhaegar in the first place.

10 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Well, if we also include the Blue Bard (who I can't think is in the books for anything other than a way for Martin to give us more info), the Blue-rose-scented Bard's use by Cersei is NOT liked by Marg.

Cersei's Feast chapters contain several allusions to the HH tourney and RR. There are even pretty strong linguistic parallels between Ned's ToJ fever dream and Cersei's Maggie the Frog dream. I had a thread about this a while back.

10 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

And Ygritte puts a caveat on Baelette's love for Bael.

She casts doubt upon it, but as I've pointed out, Bael is pure maiden-bait. He's a musician/fighter/leader. Unless he was hideously ugly, that combination was likely land him nearly all of the women. Even you, Sly!

10 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

Plus, both Ned and the World Book make it clear the Starks were NOT happy with that crown form the start. And the novels do show that Lyanna was close to her family. And very loyal to the north (defense of Howland shows that).

So, if her family felt insulted by the roses, I think it's very likely Lyanna wasn't too thrilled, either.

I don't think this conclusion is safe to draw. After all, Lyanna was fond of... flowers.

[Ygrain]

On 27. 9. 2016 at 0:25 AM, nanother said:

Not running of per se. If you said she ran off to kick Rhaegar in the balls for embarrassing her at Harrenhal, I could almost believe it. I could also see her running away from marriage (although there's no indication that she hated the thought of wedding Robert that much) or even the role of a Lady altogether. But I'd expect her to be wary about getting into a relationship with a married man. Not only because of the (in)fidelity issue, but also because I have a feeling that it'd bother her that she's stealing someone else's husband.

I am reading "wolf blood" as rash, reckless, impulsive behaviour. Act first, think later. With a bit of infatuation that makes one blind to facts they don't want to see... IMHO, not implausible in the least.

 

[Ygrain]

wolfmaid, I'm afraid the posts are getting tl;dr and I don't have the time to adress it all. So, just a couple of things:

- servants and other persons who might have seen Rhaegar and Lyanna or Robert and Lyanna together:

We have Howland Reed and Wylla who both have interesting things to say but we haven't encountered them yet. Whereas, we have Sansa/Alayne PoVs in the Vale where she had daily contact with people who would have known if Lyanna ever came visiting. Yet, no-one ever reminiscences about the time that Ned and Robert spent in the Vale (not to mention Lyanna visiting), as if it was of no further importance to the current storyline. Which shouldn't be so, if there was intended some reveal about Lyanna in the Vale.

- the behaviour at the feast:

When Joffrey is being nice to Sansa, we have had multiple samples of his interaction with her as well as other people to know that he is playing an act and Sansa is being naïve there. Whereas, with Robert and Lyanna, we have just that one interaction where, despite the "atmosphere", they are not interacting. Out of all the possible mentions of what might have taken place between the two at HH, GRRM gave us this particular situation. The same goes for Lyanna's statement about Robert - out of all the possible comments she might have made about him, GRRM chose to disclose one where she expresses her concerns.

 

PS: if you want to claim HH as a proof that Robert and Lyanna were at the same place, you need to count it among the points for Rhaegar, as well.

[maudisdottir]

I just want to point out again that the link between the Blue Bard and blue roses doesn't actually exist.  It's purely Cersei's wry speculation.  I don't have the books to hand but IIRC she notes how everything he wears is blue and that he smells like he bathes in rose water.  Then thinks to herself they were probably blue roses.   There is NOTHING in the text to connect the Blue Bard with blue roses other than Cersei's assumption.  So it's drawing a pretty long bow to continually use the Blue Bard as proof that blue roses are an insult.

[Ygrain]

18 minutes ago, maudisdottir said:

 So it's drawing a pretty long bow to continually use the Blue Bard as proof that blue roses are an insult.

Exactly. Interpreting blue roses as an insult is merely one layer of both Bael the Bard and the HH crowning, and given the way ned thinks about Lyanna and blue roses, it doesn't make much sense: Lyanna loved the scent of winter roses - Lyanna loved being insulted? Hardly.