Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

[LynnS]

Giving Lyanna something that she loves (winter roses),  in a manner that could be considered an insult, would be fairly egregious in my view.  It would be a gesture that would be soiled or tainted.

[maudisdottir]

What about the blue rose Dany sees in the wall of ice?  I can't see how that can be linked to an insult either.

[Sly Wren]

10 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

No. I think you're missing my point. Which is that it was not really an opportune moment for Ned to call Lyanna a hypocrite. In that instance he was comparing Arya and Lyanna's wildness-- wolf blood.

I may still be missing the point: are you asserting that because he didn't get around to discussing her hypocrisy it's likely she was a hypocrite? 

As for the wolf-blooded wildness: the novels take the time to show that Ned was right: Lyanna's defense of Howland, her stick fight with Benjen--she sticks to her convictions no matter what. They are VERY brief glimpses not doubt. But so far, I can't see any reason to suspect she's not a stubbornly wild as Arya--and thus likely to stick to her guns.

10 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I feel like part of the disagreement here stems from whether or not you believe it would have been hypocritical for Lyanna to give that little speech and then sleep with Rhaegar in the first place.

Maybe that's it. I'm thinking that Lyanna would reject him for his behavior. As Arya rejects people who fail her. Or prove themselves to be liars in her eyes.

Lyanna seems to have made her mind up about men in that statement. Like Arya makes up her mind about liars. So, hypocrisy--yes, it would be that. But also seems like going against her own psyche and personality.

So far, we haven't seen Lyanna do that. And Arya sticks pretty close to her code.

10 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Cersei's Feast chapters contain several allusions to the HH tourney and RR. There are even pretty strong linguistic parallels between Ned's ToJ fever dream and Cersei's Maggie the Frog dream. I had a thread about this a while back.

Very cool--will check it out in a bit.

10 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

She casts doubt upon it, but as I've pointed out, Bael is pure maiden-bait. He's a musician/fighter/leader. Unless he was hideously ugly, that combination was likely land him nearly all of the women. Even you, Sly!

HA! Yes--every girl falls for a musician at some point. Or five.

But with Bael, it may come back to "it's all in where you're standing:" Stonesnake calls him a raper. If that's what he was to the Bael Maid, Free Folk may call him a lover, but the Bael Maid really might not.

Even Sansa gets turned off by handsome men who do terrible things (Joff) or creep her out and try to assault her--like Marillion (also a singer). Sansa's as romantic as they come--she still doesn't fall for him.

So, it would depend on the Bael Maid's perspective. And we have that very tantalizing vision from Bran of a pregnant woman calling for a son to give her vengeance. . . 

10 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I don't think this conclusion is safe to draw. After all, Lyanna was fond of... flowers.

Very true. But in the same novel, Ned shows us Arya's fondness for flowers; counting the new flowers they see as they cross the Neck. Then splashing through bogs to collect them. Then laughing even when the flowers sting her. Then making bouquets for her father.

Then, Ned tells Arya she's wolf-blooded like Lyanna.

Then we see Sansa's love for flowers at the tourney--very different from wolf-blooded Arya's.

And all of that's before we are half-way through Game. 

Of all of the things Arya could have done on their trip that might have annoyed Sansa (searching for frogs to put in Sansa's bed, for instance), Martin has Arya hunt for flowers. Be so fond of flowers that she keeps a tally of all of the new ones she's seen.

Seems like there's an excellent chance this isn't an accident: Martin is defining Lyanna's "fondness for flowers" via her wolf blooded niece. And that fondness is NOTHING like Sansa's romantic rose-getting at a tourney.

If this is right: Lyanna's reaction to the roses would not be like Sansa's. If anything, we know she throws fits over her father's bannerman being insulted. A bannerman she's never met.

If there weren't so many people watching, I'd expect Lyanna to throw the crown back at Rhaegar and say, "Give it to your wife, stupid!"

[Sly Wren]

4 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

I just want to point out again that the link between the Blue Bard and blue roses doesn't actually exist.  It's purely Cersei's wry speculation.  I don't have the books to hand but IIRC she notes how everything he wears is blue and that he smells like he bathes in rose water.  Then thinks to herself they were probably blue roses.   There is NOTHING in the text to connect the Blue Bard with blue roses other than Cersei's assumption.  So it's drawing a pretty long bow to continually use the Blue Bard as proof that blue roses are an insult.

Right--but of all of the people Martin has Cersei use against an enemy, he has her used a Blue, rose-scented, singing Bard. 

Cersei doesn't get the significance of that.

But I can't think the reader's supposed to miss it.

3 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Exactly. Interpreting blue roses as an insult is merely one layer of both Bael the Bard and the HH crowning, and given the way ned thinks about Lyanna and blue roses, it doesn't make much sense: Lyanna loved the scent of winter roses - Lyanna loved being insulted? Hardly.

Right--but Arya still loved her new and fabulous flowers from her flower hunting, even after she got stung by them.

So, even if Rhaegar intended to insult the family (as Bael CLEARLY intended to insult the Starks and Cersei is clearly attacking the Tyrells), Lyanna could very well still love the roses in general.

If she's anything like Arya, she'd call Rhaegar stupid, and blame him for being stupid. But not the roses.

Any more than Arya can gets mad at the flowers that stung her. Or the fleas that she can't bear to drown. Arya blames stupid, lying people.Takes her anger out on them. Puts them on kill lists.  Not poison kissing flowers. Or even fleas.

[wolfmaid7]

20 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

But it literally says "and woke." Whether Ned actually reached for the crown or not, that was part of a dream. Whereas the crowning was something Ned remembered.

I just wanted to make clear that it was an OT thought, and not an attempt to start a new line of OT conversation here.

Oh no i'm not doubting it was a dream,i'm just saying that part of him removing the crown from her lap seems to be a memory of what he actually did given his anger.

11 hours ago, nanother said:

 

Agreed. And, as I said, he might very well have asked for all we know. Or was there a detailed eyewitness account of the full encounter somewhere in the books that I missed?

To be clear, I can see why this can be seen as a clue towards Ned not being concerned about finding Lyanna, even though I don't think it very likely. What bothers me is your (apparent) insistence that it must be. There's one one particular reading of the text (and the situation, and Ned's character, and what GRRM is or isn't likely to do), fine. It's important to point that out, and it's a (very weak, in this specific case) evidence that the 'popular' reading might be wrong, but that doesn't make it the most fitting or the most likely interpretation. I don't think that Ned's immediate goal being wrapping up the war, or him not mentioning (in that context) that he was worried about Lyanna are particularly incompatible with him believing that she was abducted, unless you want them to be. Anyway, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this

That's a fair point. Although, as far as narrators go, Ned's knowledge about Lyanna's location is as reliable as you can get. Alas, he neglects to share it. Anyway, I explained to JNR above why I think it's more likely to be true than not, but I acknowledge the possibility that it's false.

Quite different, yes. That one is a nice round little story that we're told once. The Wylla thing is a small mystery to itself: we have Ned Stark naming her but with obvious reluctance. We don't hear any more about this mysterious Wylla until we meet Ned Dayne and learn that he's Jon's 'milk brother' through Wylla the wetnurse. But it's kind of odd - why do the Daynes appear to think Ned was in love with Ashara, married another woman and knocked up a third? Who's this Wylla and how did she wind up with the Daynes? Or with Ned? How is she connected to whatever the hell is going on with the Starks and Daynes?

Sure, Wylla could just be a red herring - some random woman who went with Ned to Starfall for whatever reason and ended up staying there as a wetnurse. But it doesn't seem likely to me.

Very clearly a suggestion, IMO. Martin obviously intends us to think Lyanna was there. Whether it's legit clue or misdirection, that can be debated, but I think it'd be silly to deny that the suggestion is there.

And BTW the point I'm trying to make is not that it can be proven with 100% certainty that Lyanna was in Dorne - it can't for the reasons you brought up. The point is that the evidence for her being there is still far stronger than the evidence against.

You're arguing against something I didn't say. There are many places in Dorne besides ToJ. Mind you, I wouldn't exclude the possibility that she was indeed there, but it's not relevant to the matter at hand.

No, there was no eyewitness account,plus if they were, it would have to be a fish taking notes.Men yelling,grunting,swords clashing,water sloshing.No one could hear any such a thing realistically.

Oh you still misunderstanding what i'm saying.I'm saying his behavior was probablly so because there was nothing to be worried about with regard to Lyanna or Benjen etc because she wasn't missing or he didn't know she was.

Nanother i'm not insisting that my interpretation must be the only way to interpret it. On the contra i've been arguing that the reading of the text and what people take away from it offers multiple interpretations. I can't se how you can get that when,we are arguing against what has been seen as the only interpretation for a lot of these points.

Some are going to be right and some are going to be wrong. I hear what your saying,i'm only telling you i disagree and these are the reasons why.You believe that the arguements against are weak,mine and others is that the arguements for are weak.So where does that leave us? A bunch of people who believe each others arguements are weak,not only is that subjective it doesn't matter because such things won't have a bearing on who is right or wrong.My point i can't deal with "ifs" i was just telling another poster on another thread about this."If" someone heard,if someone saw,if someone left a letter.There was must an indication of "if"

What i have to look at is  Brandon-(who had to be restrained from beating Rhaegar's arse and later heard "something" about Lyanna and went to KL calling for Rhaegar to come out and die):

Ned-(Ned,who when speaking to Lord Borril is talking about winning a rebellion consistent with what he and Robert talked about.Lord Borill who didn't mention,or say Ned mentioned the wrong that was done by the crown Prince breaking a bethrothal or anything along that lines.Ned,whose internal monologue on leaving KL says nothing of his missing sister,if she was ok etc.The same Ned who said he loved her with his whole heart.

Robert-Who loved her,had the man supposedly responsible for abducting her at his feet and he says nothing about Lyanna.

Lastly,an author who writes in such an ambiguous way perception and reality are two different things.

This is what i have,so based on this i can conlcude a couple of things

1. Lyanna wasn't missing,her "missing" is not what sent Brandon to KL.She was safe until she died under mysterious circumstances which got copted into a rather colorful tale of love, betrayel,revenge, and tragic death after the Targs fell.Robert got the same singers and Maesters tale afterward..Rhaegar couldn't be found because he kidnapped /ran off with Lyanna who he didn't even know was missing.Probablly thought she was at WF. 

2. Nobody not even Ned knew his sister had been kidnapped,only when all was said and done he found out.

On the Dayne angle,that is a really weird situation on truth.It has always struck me as odd that the Daynes would have Wylla around while at the same time "knowing" Ned and Ashara were in love.The only thing i can think of is this another hearsay testimony.

Yet,that's exactly what we have,a girl who Ned had a thing with now living in nice household as a wetnurse.

Your point is taken,but it is your opinion that Ned hearing Lyanna scream in a dream is stronger evidence than 

a.The author warning us it is a dream and that our dreams aren't always literal. I think he knows that no one is going to think that roses strewn across a blood streaked sky was anything else but symbolic.And as i've pointed out Ned's waking recollection supports his fight with the Kgs at the tower and what he did with their bodies and the bodies of his friends that's it.His waking recollection doesn't in any shape or form have Lyanna at the same place and/or time Ned fought with the kgs.So i can't see how you can say George wanted us to think Lyanna was there at that time when he warns us to remember this is in the context of a dream.

Yes,the matter of hand was her kidnapping/running off with Rhaegar proposal.Like i've said befoe.I don't buy that they ran off with each other,or that he kidnapped her.Which brings me back to it.Was there a kidnapping.I say no,i think she was in hiding at some point and Ned knew where.

 

 

I have to disgree Nanother,i don't think he intedned for us to think she was in Dorne,

11 hours ago, Ygrain said:

wolfmaid, I'm afraid the posts are getting tl;dr and I don't have the time to adress it all. So, just a couple of things:

- servants and other persons who might have seen Rhaegar and Lyanna or Robert and Lyanna together:

We have Howland Reed and Wylla who both have interesting things to say but we haven't encountered them yet. Whereas, we have Sansa/Alayne PoVs in the Vale where she had daily contact with people who would have known if Lyanna ever came visiting. Yet, no-one ever reminiscences about the time that Ned and Robert spent in the Vale (not to mention Lyanna visiting), as if it was of no further importance to the current storyline. Which shouldn't be so, if there was intended some reveal about Lyanna in the Vale.

- the behaviour at the feast:

When Joffrey is being nice to Sansa, we have had multiple samples of his interaction with her as well as other people to know that he is playing an act and Sansa is being naïve there. Whereas, with Robert and Lyanna, we have just that one interaction where, despite the "atmosphere", they are not interacting. Out of all the possible mentions of what might have taken place between the two at HH, GRRM gave us this particular situation. The same goes for Lyanna's statement about Robert - out of all the possible comments she might have made about him, GRRM chose to disclose one where she expresses her concerns.

 

PS: if you want to claim HH as a proof that Robert and Lyanna were at the same place, you need to count it among the points for Rhaegar, as well.

No,there are no witnesses that may have seen Rhaegar and Lyanna or Robert and Lyanna together.I didn't introduce that because as i said i don't think that's important in determining the relationship if any existed at all. This goes for Robert and Rhaegar.

On your next point we don't have in the form of eye witness where someone can say i  saw X+Y verbatum on either side...Robert or Rhaegar.I think that "eye witness" account is to on the nose and there's no subtly involved for the reader.Seeing as he has crafted the parentage as a mystery,and as i suspect one prospect a Red Herring i expect a bit more tact than hitting us with things over the head,......No matter who we may think the father is.

Who did Sansa have contact with that even mentioned Robert and Ned period being in the Vale or speaking about what Robert and Ned did in the Vale as young boys  farless Lyanna if she was there? No one she has met has to context because they all think she's Alayne.There's no reason fofr them to speak about Ned,Robert or Lyanna. Now when it is revealed that she is in fact Sansa Stark to everyone and that will be coming in due time

What people at the Feast before the tourney for Ned as hand of the King  are commenting or said anything about Joff pretending with Sansa ? By the way that is irrelevant.My point at bringing up Joff and Sansa and Dany and Drogo is we have a situation where Joff was visibly being attentive to Sansa.......That was not a true representation of their relatonship.

Drogo from Dany's point of view ignored,her completely to the point where she felt alone. He was simply hanging with his boys enjoying his himself.Yet behind closed doors he was gentle and attentive to her.What makes you think that Lyanna "felt" or percieved Robert as ignoring her?She was having a good time and so was Robert.It is your perception that Robert was ignoring her and that Lyanna felt ignored.

4 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

I just want to point out again that the link between the Blue Bard and blue roses doesn't actually exist.  It's purely Cersei's wry speculation.  I don't have the books to hand but IIRC she notes how everything he wears is blue and that he smells like he bathes in rose water.  Then thinks to herself they were probably blue roses.   There is NOTHING in the text to connect the Blue Bard with blue roses other than Cersei's assumption.  So it's drawing a pretty long bow to continually use the Blue Bard as proof that blue roses are an insult.

I agree to an extent,i've pointed out this before and i think its worth mentioning again....

The Bard is the one who always gets screwed.They always take the fall for the girl's mistake.

1.Bael didn't pick the lock,at anytime Lord Stark's daughter could have screamed.It probably wasn't the first time for her either

2.Lord Rowan's daughter let Daeron in her room and her bed and it probably wasn't the first time.

3. The Blue Bard just happened to be a favorite singer of Margery and good looking that's all Cersie needed to know and its something shitty about humans. He's her favorite singer,he's good looking...ofcourse he's banging her.

4.Marriloin with Sansa,took the blame for a lie coutesy of Littlefinger and Sansa not saying a danm thing.

It's not safe being a singer that many girls have the hots for.You will get blamed for stuff you didn't even do,or the girl's to afraid to say you did nothing wrong.

[J. Stargaryen]

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

I may still be missing the point: are you asserting that because he didn't get around to discussing her hypocrisy it's likely she was a hypocrite?

Not at all.

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

As for the wolf-blooded wildness: the novels take the time to show that Ned was right: Lyanna's defense of Howland, her stick fight with Benjen--she sticks to her convictions no matter what. They are VERY brief glimpses not doubt. But so far, I can't see any reason to suspect she's not a stubbornly wild as Arya--and thus likely to stick to her guns.

Yeah, but earlier you seemed to be implying that wolf blooded was the opposite of hypocrite, or that being wolf blooded would preclude the possibility of being hypocritical. Unless I am mistaken. Since Ned defines wolf blooded as being wild, I wouldn't agree with that assertion.

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Maybe that's it. I'm thinking that Lyanna would reject him for his behavior. As Arya rejects people who fail her. Or prove themselves to be liars in her eyes.

Lyanna seems to have made her mind up about men in that statement. Like Arya makes up her mind about liars. So, hypocrisy--yes, it would be that. But also seems like going against her own psyche and personality.

So far, we haven't seen Lyanna do that. And Arya sticks pretty close to her code.

I see what you're saying, but I think you're pinning a lot on the idea that Arya is basically Lyanna come again.

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Very cool--will check it out in a bit.

Though I'm sure you'll draw different conclusions, it might be of some use to you.

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

HA! Yes--every girl falls for a musician at some point. Or five.

But with Bael, it may come back to "it's all in where you're standing:" Stonesnake calls him a raper. If that's what he was to the Bael Maid, Free Folk may call him a lover, but the Bael Maid really might not.

Sure, this is all true. But another version of "it's all in where you're standing" might be that consensual sex between Bael and Baelette is still rape by Northern standards. After all, he took the girl without her father's permission.

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Even Sansa gets turned off by handsome men who do terrible things (Joff) or creep her out and try to assault her--like Marillion (also a singer). Sansa's as romantic as they come--she still doesn't fall for him.

Sure, if Bael was cruel like Joff, or a creep like Marillion. But, while Joff is a handsome prince, he's also a coward. And Marillion is a singer, but not a leader or fighter. Perhaps Bael was cruel, but I doubt he was a coward. And given his maiden-bait status he probably wasn't all that creepy.

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

So, it would depend on the Bael Maid's perspective. And we have that very tantalizing vision from Bran of a pregnant woman calling for a son to give her vengeance. . . 

Yes, tantalizing indeed. But I have serious doubts that woman is Baelette, based on the apparent chronology of those visions.

2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Very true. But in the same novel, Ned shows us Arya's fondness for flowers; counting the new flowers they see as they cross the Neck. Then splashing through bogs to collect them. Then laughing even when the flowers sting her. Then making bouquets for her father.

Then, Ned tells Arya she's wolf-blooded like Lyanna.

Then we see Sansa's love for flowers at the tourney--very different from wolf-blooded Arya's.

And all of that's before we are half-way through Game. 

Of all of the things Arya could have done on their trip that might have annoyed Sansa (searching for frogs to put in Sansa's bed, for instance), Martin has Arya hunt for flowers. Be so fond of flowers that she keeps a tally of all of the new ones she's seen.

Seems like there's an excellent chance this isn't an accident: Martin is defining Lyanna's "fondness for flowers" via her wolf blooded niece. And that fondness is NOTHING like Sansa's romantic rose-getting at a tourney.

If this is right: Lyanna's reaction to the roses would not be like Sansa's. If anything, we know she throws fits over her father's bannerman being insulted. A bannerman she's never met.

If there weren't so many people watching, I'd expect Lyanna to throw the crown back at Rhaegar and say, "Give it to your wife, stupid!"

I think the interpretations are pretty reasonable, even though I don't exactly agree. For example, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Lyanna's Sansa-like nature. She might be more like Arya, but she cried during Rhaegar's song. That doesn't seem like something Arya would do.

[Ygrain]

31 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

No,there are no witnesses that may have seen Rhaegar and Lyanna or Robert and Lyanna together.I didn't introduce that because as i said i don't think that's important in determining the relationship if any existed at all. This goes for Robert and Rhaegar.

Well, there might be for Rhaegar, and there should be for Robert, or how else is this love story going to out?

31 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Who did Sansa have contact with that even mentioned Robert and Ned period being in the Vale or speaking about what Robert and Ned did in the Vale as young boys  farless Lyanna if she was there? No one she has met has to context because they all think she's Alayne.There's no reason fofr them to speak about Ned,Robert or Lyanna. Now when it is revealed that she is in fact Sansa Stark to everyone and that will be coming in due time

People not knowing her trued identity has nothing to do with the fact that she is conveniently placed to provide information through her PoV for the benefit of the reader. If GRRM intended to place some hints for us, there has been plenty of opportunity. For example, some servants talking that it would do well for Sweetrobin to have there some boys of his age, that the Eyrie used to be a merry place when Ned and Robert were there - and from there, the conversation would naturally flow towards the reveal that Lyanna came visiting, as well. Yet, a whole book of Sansa in the Vale, with nothing.

31 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

What people at the Feast before the tourney for Ned as hand of the King  are commenting or said anything about Joff pretending with Sansa ? By the way that is irrelevant.My point at bringing up Joff and Sansa and Dany and Drogo is we have a situation where Joff was visibly being attentive to Sansa.......That was not a true representation of their relatonship.

Why are you bringing people into it? I am talking about the reader knowing that Joff's attention is a sham. The reader knows what Sansa does not because the reader has further information to assess the situation, and the same goes for Dany-Drogo, which we can assess at least in hindsight. Though, I'd say that the latter is more complicated, as his later behaviour towards Dany is much less caring, but I guess it's the predisposition of his culture that shows here.

Either way, you're still missing the main point: with all those other relationships, we have plenty of other situation to know what these relationships are like. They cannot be used as comparison for a supposed relationship for which we get only a single scene which does not support the two people being in a relationship

31 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Drogo from Dany's point of view ignored,her completely to the point where she felt alone. He was simply hanging with his boys enjoying his himself.Yet behind closed doors he was gentle and attentive to her.What makes you think that Lyanna "felt" or percieved Robert as ignoring her?She was having a good time and so was Robert.It is your perception that Robert was ignoring her and that Lyanna felt ignored.

I'm not saying she felt ignored. She is basically as much ignoring him as he is ignoring her. They are not interacting in any way which would suggest that they are close. - Mind you again: we have this one scene, only one, and the author chose not to send any signal about those two being close. 

[nanother]

13 hours ago, Ygrain said:

I am reading "wolf blood" as rash, reckless, impulsive behaviour. Act first, think later. With a bit of infatuation that makes one blind to facts they don't want to see... IMHO, not implausible in the least.

 

Well, yes, infatuation has a tendency to make people act out of character  But my take on her "wolf blood" is that it might make her ignore danger, societal expectations, or common sense, but I don't think it'd make her ignore her sense of right and wrong. And given what little we see of her, I think it' wouldn't be easy to override that. It's possible, but it'd have to be one hell of an infatuation (or whatever other reason).

@Sly Wren I'm still stuck with the idea that, if blue roses have symbolism attached to them, then Lyanna loving the scent of them also should. I mean, it doesn't absolutely have to, but I'd find it very odd if it didn't. While your approach of extrapolating from what we see of Arya is very reasonable, I think you're neglecting the symbolic aspect in the process. This might be another thing to take over to your Bael thread (it might take awhile for me to take up this and the previous thread of thought again, though - the time and mental energy I can spend on ASoIaF is very limited these days)

[Sly Wren]

34 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Yeah, but earlier you seemed to be implying that wolf blooded was the opposite of hypocrite, or that being wolf blooded would preclude the possibility of being hypocritical. Unless I am mistaken. Since Ned defines wolf blooded as being wild, I wouldn't agree with that assertion.

Ah! Sorry--that was not my intent. My main point was that Martin shows Lyanna's conviction. Shows how Arya approaches her convictions. And that therefore it seems likely that Lyanna might stick as stubbornly to her ideas.

So far, we've not been shown her hypocrisy. It's possible. But can't see any reason to assume it--yet.

34 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I see what you're saying, but I think you're pinning a lot on the idea that Arya is basically Lyanna come again.

HA! I now have an image of Arya as Lyanna descending from above.

No--not Lyanna come again. But Martin's taken the time to show us from multiple perspectives that Arya and Lyanna share specific skills and personality traits. Since we get so little on Lyanna, using Arya as at least a touch point seems wise. Otherwise, we're flying pretty blind.

34 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Sure, this is all true. But another version of "it's all in where you're standing" might be that consensual sex between Bael and Baelette is still rape by Northern standards. After all, he took the girl without her father's permission.

True. That's one of the reasons why Ygritte's statement re: the love seems worth noticing. And that image of the woman in the pool is very intriguing.

34 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Sure, if Bael was cruel like Joff, or a creep like Marillion. But, while Joff is a handsome prince, he's also a coward. And Marillion is a singer, but not a leader or fighter. Perhaps Bael was cruel, but I doubt he was a coward. And given his maiden-bait status he probably wasn't all that creepy.

Yes--but the only person we have attesting to his maiden-bait status is himself. Ygritte makes that clear.

And Sansa doesn't deny Marillion's being "comely." She just still finds him a creep.

So, with Bael, the only thing we have is HIS song and his characterization of Baelette. But Ygritte makes sure we know that--seems like seeing him as maiden-bait should be taken with a pretty big grain of salt.

34 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Yes, tantalizing indeed. But I have serious doubts that woman is Baelette, based on the apparent chronology of those visions.

A good point--though I have trouble pinning down the timeline very well.

34 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I think the interpretations are pretty reasonable, even though I don't exactly agree. For example, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Lyanna's Sansa-like nature. She might be more like Arya, but she cried during Rhaegar's song. That doesn't seem like something Arya would do.

But Martin actually gives us Arya getting emotional at a song. In the same book as Meera's tale: 

"The wench is dead," the woman hissed. "Only worms may kiss her now." And then to Tom Sevenstrings she said, "I'll have my song or I'll have you gone."

So the singer played for her, so soft and sad that Arya only heard snatches of the words, though the tune was half-familiar. Sansa would know it, I bet. Her sister had known all the songs, and she could even play a little, and sing so sweetly. All I could ever do was shout the words. Storm, Arya IV

Arya's affected by the song. Gets homesick and sibling-sick. But she's not focused on the singer. The singer isn't even singing for her, any more than the books give any indication Rhaegar was singing for Lyanna.

Lyanna only sniffled at Rhaegar's song--but no indication if that was her swooning over harp boy (as Sansa might have done) or if the sad song triggered other thoughts that made Lyanna sad--as is the case with Arya.

If I had to bet, I'd bet on Lyanna's being like Arya here--Martin does put the example in the same book as the tourney story.

Plus her reaction to being teased is dumping a jug on Benjen's head. At the feast. In front of everyone--including harp boy. Seems very Arya-like. And not at all romantic, like Sansa.

[nanother]

51 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Oh no i'm not doubting it was a dream,i'm just saying that part of him removing the crown from her lap seems to be a memory of what he actually did given his anger.

No, there was no eyewitness account,plus if they were, it would have to be a fish taking notes.Men yelling,grunting,swords clashing,water sloshing.No one could hear any such a thing realistically.

Oh you still misunderstanding what i'm saying.I'm saying his behavior was probablly so because there was nothing to be worried about with regard to Lyanna or Benjen etc because she wasn't missing or he didn't know she was.

I believe I understand what you're saying, I just disagree with your conclusion or your evaluation of how probable certain things are. Anyway, as you say, time will tell.

51 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

What i have to look at is  Brandon-(who had to be restrained from beating Rhaegar's arse and later heard "something" about Lyanna and went to KL calling for Rhaegar to come out and die):

Ned-(Ned,who when speaking to Lord Borril is talking about winning a rebellion consistent with what he and Robert talked about.Lord Borill who didn't mention,or say Ned mentioned the wrong that was done by the crown Prince breaking a bethrothal or anything along that lines.Ned,whose internal monologue on leaving KL says nothing of his missing sister,if she was ok etc.The same Ned who said he loved her with his whole heart.

You keep making up reasons why various people should have talked about Lyanna and the kidnapping. But most (granted, not all) of those are just that: reasons you're making up. Why on earth would Lord Borrell (sp?) mention Lyanna in that situation, even if Ned told him about her? Frankly, your argument would be far stronger without this kind of stuff. One could focus on the good points you make, instead of being busy refuting nonsense. Or attempting to, in vain.

51 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Robert-Who loved her,had the man supposedly responsible for abducting her at his feet and he says nothing about Lyanna.

Lastly,an author who writes in such an ambiguous way perception and reality are two different things.

This is what i have,so based on this i can conlcude a couple of things

1. Lyanna wasn't missing,her "missing" is not what sent Brandon to KL.She was safe until she died under mysterious circumstances which got copted into a rather colorful tale of love, betrayel,revenge, and tragic death after the Targs fell.Robert got the same singers and Maesters tale afterward..Rhaegar couldn't be found because he kidnapped /ran off with Lyanna who he didn't even know was missing.Probablly thought she was at WF. 

2. Nobody not even Ned knew his sister had been kidnapped,only when all was said and done he found out.

On the Dayne angle,that is a really weird situation on truth.It has always struck me as odd that the Daynes would have Wylla around while at the same time "knowing" Ned and Ashara were in love.The only thing i can think of is this another hearsay testimony.

Yet,that's exactly what we have,a girl who Ned had a thing with now living in nice household as a wetnurse.

That's a valid take, and fits really nicely on the subset of clues you base it upon. And it's certainly very useful that you pointed out those clues. Overall, I don't think it works quite so well, but we should really just agree to disagree on that.

51 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Your point is taken,but it is your opinion that Ned hearing Lyanna scream in a dream is stronger evidence than 

a.The author warning us it is a dream and that our dreams aren't always literal. I think he knows that no one is going to think that roses strewn across a blood streaked sky was anything else but symbolic.And as i've pointed out Ned's waking recollection supports his fight with the Kgs at the tower and what he did with their bodies and the bodies of his friends that's it.His waking recollection doesn't in any shape or form have Lyanna at the same place and/or time Ned fought with the kgs.So i can't see how you can say George wanted us to think Lyanna was there at that time when he warns us to remember this is in the context of a dream.

There are so many things wrong with that argument. First, I ask you again to stop arguing with something I didn't say. Lyanna being in Dorne is not the same as her being in the ToJ. As for Rhaegar and kidnapping, she could also have ended up in Dorne without being kidnapped by Rhaegar, so that's not relevant either. And there are many ways that dream can be 'not literal', many of them still having Lyanna in Dorne. Lastly, evidence for Lyanna being in Dorne not being conclusive is NOT evidence for her not being Dorne.

I agree that the fact that Martin leaves so much ambiguity indicates that some things are not as they seem. I just think there also have to be some things that are as they seem. It's a matter of trying to figure out which things are which.

51 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I have to disgree Nanother,i don't think he intedned for us to think she was in Dorne,

Sure, there might some things in the books that lead people to that conclusion, but I'm sure those are purely accidental. There's no way Martin could have intended those as clues

51 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

The Bard is the one who always gets screwed.They always take the fall for the girl's mistake.

1.Bael didn't pick the lock,at anytime Lord Stark's daughter could have screamed.It probably wasn't the first time for her either

2.Lord Rowan's daughter let Daeron in her room and her bed and it probably wasn't the first time.

3. The Blue Bard just happened to be a favorite singer of Margery and good looking that's all Cersie needed to know and its something shitty about humans. He's her favorite singer,he's good looking...ofcourse he's banging her.

4.Marriloin with Sansa,took the blame for a lie coutesy of Littlefinger and Sansa not saying a danm thing.

It's not safe being a singer that many girls have the hots for.You will get blamed for stuff you didn't even do,or the girl's to afraid to say you did nothing wrong.

Now, that's a nice argument for Rhaegar being framed. It's an interesting take on the Bael tale, but one that's worth thinking about.

[J. Stargaryen]

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Yes--but the only person we have attesting to his maiden-bait status is himself. Ygritte makes that clear.

And Sansa doesn't deny Marillion's being "comely." She just still finds him a creep.

So, with Bael, the only thing we have is HIS song and his characterization of Baelette. But Ygritte makes sure we know that--seems like seeing him as maiden-bait should be taken with a pretty big grain of salt.

I think we're getting crossed up here. Bael the Bard was a KBtW, and before that a raider. So we can say with confidence that he was in fact a leader, fighter and musician.

3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Plus her reaction to being teased is dumping a jug on Benjen's head. At the feast. In front of everyone--including harp boy. Seems very Arya-like. And not at all romantic, like Sansa.

I agree with the bold. And I think there's a good chance you're right in stating that there are certain parallels, or connections, to HH there. Did Rhaegar sing Jenny's song at HH, or does that song possibly give us some clue about the nature of R&L's relationship? However, I think Lyanna's reaction to Rhaegar's song was much stronger than Arya's. If the song had made Arya sniffle, I'm pretty sure she would've called it stupid.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

48 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I agree with the bold. And I think there's a good chance you're right in stating that there are certain parallels, or connections, to HH there. Did Rhaegar sing Jenny's song at HH, or does that song possibly give us some clue about the nature of R&L's relationship? However, I think Lyanna's reaction to Rhaegar's song was much stronger than Arya's. If the song had made Arya sniffle, I'm pretty sure she would've called it stupid.

Actually I'm not sure if Arya's "type" per se is a Rhaegar-like guy. She seems to scorn that kind of stuff. And she's too young, but it did seem like she was attracted to Gendry. So I second your opinion that Arya and Lyanna may not be an exact copy of each other.

[J. Stargaryen]

26 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Actually I'm not sure if Arya's "type" per se is a Rhaegar-like guy. She seems to scorn that kind of stuff. And she's too young, but it did seem like she was attracted to Gendry. So I second your opinion that Arya and Lyanna may not be an exact copy of each other.

Fwiw, GRRM intended Jon and Arya to end up together back in the early 90s.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

23 minutes ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Fwiw, GRRM intended Jon and Arya to end up together back in the early 90s.

He debunked that though. @The Fattest Leech met him recently at Balticon, I think, and he was very dismissive of Jon/Arya, while saying she and Gendry might meet again.

[J. Stargaryen]

Just now, Little Scribe of Naath said:

He debunked that though. @The Fattest Leech met him recently and he was very dismissive of Jon/Arya, while saying she and Gendry might meet again.

Right, I definitely think he dropped Jon+Arya a long time ago. Probably had something to do with the ages of the characters. But it's kind of an interesting note about where his head was at, back when he was putting the story together.

[Sly Wren]

6 hours ago, nanother said:

 

@Sly Wren I'm still stuck with the idea that, if blue roses have symbolism attached to them, then Lyanna loving the scent of them also should. I mean, it doesn't absolutely have to, but I'd find it very odd if it didn't. While your approach of extrapolating from what we see of Arya is very reasonable, I think you're neglecting the symbolic aspect in the process.

Oh--I agree that the roses seem to mean more for Ned and Lyanna. 

For the giving of the roses--Bael to Baelette, Cersei to Marg, and (I think) Rhaegar to Lyanna--the intent of the giver seems. . . unfriendly at best.

But the roses themselves can't only mean that for Ned. They seem to mean Lyanna's happiness destroyed. Something beautiful that got destroyed. ETA: Which would potentially fit in with @LynnS's point above.

And, in the moment of the start of the tower fight, I think for the reader, the blue rose petals are likely tied to the return of the Others.

For Lyanna--loving flowers, loving the scent of roses--we've talked about Arya's love for them. I've also wondered if Martin isn't drawing on his lapsed Catholicism and tying them to the odor of sanctity. 

And the rose in the wall of ice--seems like an image of impossible beauty, growing out of something completely inhospitable. Somewhat to @maudisdottir's point above.

So--I agree that the roses themselves seem to symbolize other things (none of which I claim to have fully pinned down), regardless of what the giver intended in the above scenarios. 

Quote

This might be another thing to take over to your Bael thread (it might take awhile for me to take up this and the previous thread of thought again, though - the time and mental energy I can spend on ASoIaF is very limited these days)

HA! No worries. Seems like the roses are always going to be tied to parentage discussions. So, unless @wolfmaid7 objects, I can't see this as off topic at all.

[Sly Wren]

2 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

I think we're getting crossed up here. Bael the Bard was a KBtW, and before that a raider. So we can say with confidence that he was in fact a leader, fighter and musician.

Ah! Yes, of course. But as shown with both Sansa and Arya, that alone is no guarantee of "bait."

He could be all of those things--and still repulsive to the Maid.

Or even attractive to Baelette--and still be horrible to her.

ETA: And, of course, Stonesnake might have the right of it: south of the Wall, Bael was a rapist. Raiding and raping conquests.

Quote

I agree with the bold. And I think there's a good chance you're right in stating that there are certain parallels, or connections, to HH there. Did Rhaegar sing Jenny's song at HH, or does that song possibly give us some clue about the nature of R&L's relationship? However, I think Lyanna's reaction to Rhaegar's song was much stronger than Arya's. If the song had made Arya sniffle, I'm pretty sure she would've called it stupid.

HA! Possible. But we do see even Arya driven to tears with frustration and sadness and being homesick. 

Tom's song makes her homesick. Who knows how close she was to sniffles?

Just seems like, as with the "fond of flowers" in Game, Martin is potentially showing us exactly what can make wolf-blooded Stark maids emotional with songs.

He puts Arya with flowers in the same book as Ned's statement. And Arya's song sadness in the same book as Lyanna's sniffle. Might be the Bearded One is actually giving data.

1 hour ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Actually I'm not sure if Arya's "type" per se is a Rhaegar-like guy. She seems to scorn that kind of stuff. And she's too young, but it did seem like she was attracted to Gendry.

YUP! Though she gets upset at his attraction to other girls (not entirely unlike Lyanna).

Quote

So I second your opinion that Arya and Lyanna may not be an exact copy of each other.

Or they very well may be--Arya's reaction to Ned Dayne is interesting. She's surprisingly courteous. Even defends him from Gendry (verbally).

So, only if one must assume that Lyanna liked plotting princes must we assume Arya and Lyanna aren't alike in their taste in men..

But so far, nothing in text requires us to assume that.

And plenty in the text tells us that Arya shares multiple traits with Lyanna.

ETA: So, Arya's reactions to Gendry, spoiled princes, and even Ned Dayne--perhaps not things to discount too quickly.

[Kingmonkey]

15 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I have to disgree Nanother,i don't think he intedned for us to think she was in Dorne,

Just a reminder, the appendix to A Game of Thrones tells us:

Quote

{LYANNA}, his younger sister, died in the mountains of Dorne

We know that information in the appendices is subject to change, but this does show that GRRM at least intended us to believe that she was in Dorne when she died. 

The status of the appendices is a little odd. They avoid spoilers, but they are not simply a convenient run-down of what's stated in the books, as they do contain information which is not in the body of the novels. Consider these two entries from the SoS appendix:

Quote

his brother, PRINCE BRANDON, called BRAN, heir to the north, a boy of nine, believed dead,

and

Quote

his baseborn siblings, King Robert's bastards:
MYA STONE, a maid of nineteen, in the service of Lord Nestor Royce, of the Gates of the Moon,
GENDRY, an apprentice smith, a fugitive in the riverlands; and ignorant of his heritage

The first does not have Bran in curly brackets, which normally marks dead characters, but tells us that he is believed dead. The second gives information that the reader knows but that almost nobody in Westeros does. We can conclude that the appendices are written from an omniscient viewpoint, but one that avoids spoilers.

Thus  the report of Lyanna's death in the mountains of Dorne is not nailed down, but probably represents the general understanding of an informed person in Westeros. There must be a general understanding -- it's hardly likely that Robert wouldn't have asked Ned for details, and plenty of people would have wondered. However this conclusion is not entirely safe. As the appendices do sometimes give us information that is not widely known, but has been given to the reader, this could be information that is contrary to the generally understood sequence of events, but that is available to the reader. What links Lyanna to "the mountains of Dorne" apart from the index is Ned's dream. 

However, we do know that Ned is believed to have brought Lyanna's bones back to Winterfell from the south. Lady Dustin gives us:

Quote

He told me that my lord had died an honorable death, that his body had been laid to rest beneath the red mountains of Dorne. He brought his sister's bones back north, though, and there she rests

In equating the failure of Ned to bring Dustin's bones from the mountains of Dorne with his actually having brought his sister's bones back north implies but does not make explicit that this happened, at least approximately, at the same place and time. 

In conclusion, we can say:

1. It is most probable that the general belief was that Lyanna died in the mountains of Dorne at around the same time and place as the 3KG and Ned's companions died.
2. It is certain that GRRM wanted us to believe that Lyanna died in the mountains of Dorne, and has not so far given us any contrary data.
3. It is not impossible that we will later find out that Lyanna died somewhere else, despite the above.

 

 

[wolfmaid7]

1 hour ago, Kingmonkey said:

The first does not have Bran in curly brackets, which normally marks dead characters, but tells us that he is believed dead. The second gives information that the reader knows but that almost nobody in Westeros does. We can conclude that the appendices are written from an omniscient viewpoint, but one that avoids spoilers.

Thus  the report of Lyanna's death in the mountains of Dorne is not nailed down, but probably represents the general understanding of an informed person in Westeros. There must be a general understanding -- it's hardly likely that Robert wouldn't have asked Ned for details, and plenty of people would have wondered. However this conclusion is not entirely safe. As the appendices do sometimes give us information that is not widely known, but has been given to the reader, this could be information that is contrary to the generally understood sequence of events, but that is available to the reader. What links Lyanna to "the mountains of Dorne" apart from the index is Ned's dream. 

However, we do know that Ned is believed to have brought Lyanna's bones back to Winterfell from the south. Lady Dustin gives us:

I agree that the appendix is written from an omnisicient viewpoint which is what i'm putting fort but Kingmonkey it doesn't matter how many people know or doesn't we still get the in world belief be it shared by everyone a few or one.I don't think the appendices avoid spoiler because if one were to have read the book then it wouldn't be a spoiler that Bran isn't dead and some people know he's alive.

Plus,if you haven't read the book and decide just to jump to the appendices fro some reason his use of the term "believed to be dead" is basically saying he's alive.

I have no issue with what people believe concerning Lyanna and where she was brough from,hence me saying the appendices reflect what is believed.Looking at Lady B's statement highlights the same ambiguity to which GRRM writes and the same play on perception. I have no doubt that Lady B believes that Lyanna's bones came back from the south or that it came back from that location.But Ned never told Lady B where Lyanna's bones came from.He told her of her husband and his bravery and she must assumed her husband's horse came back and i know where that came from,and he has his sister's bones with him.Its not shocking why and how she made that leap.But the situation with him bringing Lyanna's bones back is another hint in the arguement that she wasn't at the toj.If Ned brought Lyanna's bones back  he didn't have to bury his friends he cold have burnt them to.So it is my belief Ned picked up Lyanna's bones en route from his fight with the KGs and  brought them home.

1 hour ago, Kingmonkey said:

In equating the failure of Ned to bring Dustin's bones from the mountains of Dorne with his actually having brought his sister's bones back north implies but does not make explicit that this happened, at least approximately, at the same place and time. 

In conclusion, we can say:

1. It is most probable that the general belief was that Lyanna died in the mountains of Dorne at around the same time and place as the 3KG and Ned's companions died.
2. It is certain that GRRM wanted us to believe that Lyanna died in the mountains of Dorne, and has not so far given us any contrary data.
3. It is not impossible that we will later find out that Lyanna died somewhere else, despite the above.

 

Disagree with you,its perception again,as i said Ned could have in theory burnt everyone and brought them home but he didn't.Lady B saw the horse and knew or saw that Ned brought his sisters bones and she -though not outright said it-believed Lyanna's bones came from the same location where her husband lost his life.But Ned could have picked up Lyanna's bones on his way to WF from anywhere that had the services to reduce the flesh to bones.

What better place than an area where the sisters are silent and the brothers have taken a vow of silence except for confession.No one speaks.

So,again its a matter of percerption,of the readers and of the characters involved;how they think and why.Thus the appendices is a reflection of what is believed in the story.It is reading the story we can determine if the belief held by individuals is true.In the case of Lyanna and Dorne it fails the test of reliablity.

[wolfmaid7]

On 9/29/2016 at 3:01 PM, nanother said:

I believe I understand what you're saying, I just disagree with your conclusion or your evaluation of how probable certain things are. Anyway, as you say, time will tell.

You keep making up reasons why various people should have talked about Lyanna and the kidnapping. But most (granted, not all) of those are just that: reasons you're making up. Why on earth would Lord Borrell (sp?) mention Lyanna in that situation, even if Ned told him about her? Frankly, your argument would be far stronger without this kind of stuff. One could focus on the good points you make, instead of being busy refuting nonsense. Or attempting to, in vain.

That's a valid take, and fits really nicely on the subset of clues you base it upon. And it's certainly very useful that you pointed out those clues. Overall, I don't think it works quite so well, but we should really just agree to disagree on that.

There are so many things wrong with that argument. First, I ask you again to stop arguing with something I didn't say. Lyanna being in Dorne is not the same as her being in the ToJ. As for Rhaegar and kidnapping, she could also have ended up in Dorne without being kidnapped by Rhaegar, so that's not relevant either. And there are many ways that dream can be 'not literal', many of them still having Lyanna in Dorne. Lastly, evidence for Lyanna being in Dorne not being conclusive is NOT evidence for her not being Dorne.

I agree that the fact that Martin leaves so much ambiguity indicates that some things are not as they seem. I just think there also have to be some things that are as they seem. It's a matter of trying to figure out which things are which.

Sure, there might some things in the books that lead people to that conclusion, but I'm sure those are purely accidental. There's no way Martin could have intended those as clues

Now, that's a nice argument for Rhaegar being framed. It's an interesting take on the Bael tale, but one that's worth thinking about.

 You don't have to agree on my conclusion,and only time will tell @nanother how am i making up what should be natural human behavior. Plus you are still missing the point.We agree that the Rebellion was NOT about Lyanna right? So if it was not about Lyanna and Lords called banners because it was about choosing sides then the idea that Lyanna was kidnapped was something told after the rebellion.None of these people knew what they were fighting for,not one.It was a Westerosi version of someone saying " Its on,oh its on" and people just flocked to who they supported.This, coupled with Ned,Robert and Brandon's reaction should prompt the question was she infact missing? Rhaegar shows up,speaks to Jamie and he says nothing about Lyanna.Infact  when it comes to what he should have done properly,his words seem more to roads not traveled when it comes to his father.

I think it works great,but as you say agree to disagree and leave that up to Martin.

Ok, my apologies....So if you are not proposing she was at toj.Then where are you proposing Starfall?Your right she could have ended up in Dorne,but again where are you proposing she was in Dorne?

No i don't think its accidental,i think Martin writes in such a way there is a play on reader perception.He employs the "Sealord Cat."

Yeah, in our world the celebs only have to worry about Percoset.In Westeros,cowardly young maidens,paranoid Queens and Lords with schemes.

On 9/29/2016 at 1:39 PM, Ygrain said:

Well, there might be for Rhaegar, and there should be for Robert, or how else is this love story going to out?

People not knowing her trued identity has nothing to do with the fact that she is conveniently placed to provide information through her PoV for the benefit of the reader. If GRRM intended to place some hints for us, there has been plenty of opportunity. For example, some servants talking that it would do well for Sweetrobin to have there some boys of his age, that the Eyrie used to be a merry place when Ned and Robert were there - and from there, the conversation would naturally flow towards the reveal that Lyanna came visiting, as well. Yet, a whole book of Sansa in the Vale, with nothing.

Why are you bringing people into it? I am talking about the reader knowing that Joff's attention is a sham. The reader knows what Sansa does not because the reader has further information to assess the situation, and the same goes for Dany-Drogo, which we can assess at least in hindsight. Though, I'd say that the latter is more complicated, as his later behaviour towards Dany is much less caring, but I guess it's the predisposition of his culture that shows here.

Either way, you're still missing the main point: with all those other relationships, we have plenty of other situation to know what these relationships are like. They cannot be used as comparison for a supposed relationship for which we get only a single scene which does not support the two people being in a relationship

I'm not saying she felt ignored. She is basically as much ignoring him as he is ignoring her. They are not interacting in any way which would suggest that they are close. - Mind you again: we have this one scene, only one, and the author chose not to send any signal about those two being close. 

Love story? Far from it.No happy endings.But as i said this is a matter of what you percieve to be the case and what i percieve to be the case. The "should" be for me is in the insiders and Robert's behavior.Its in the double entendres,the myth flowing through the story..Its in the dergrees of separation with regards to Jon.

I can't see how that would be good writing to have a conversation that start with Robin having no playmates,going into how Ned and Robert were playmates then ending with Lyanna and Robert in the Vale(should she have ever been there with him).There's nothing natural about that series events in a conversation.

I'm bringing Joff into it because you brought up that Robert was ignoring Lyanna...You can't say that's the case.Its "your" perception that he was based on maybe your idea about they should have been reacting in public towards each other. We get a POV of one of the people involved in all those cases i mentioned.There's no POV from Lyanna or Robert about that night. We have an objective account from Howland.At some point in the night he saw many things including Robert in a drinking contest,Lyanna having sniffled at a song Rhaegar was playing at the time.

Maybe he was ignoring her,mabe she was ignoring him,maybe they were ignoring eachother,maybe they were not the type to engage in "publicc" displays of affection. Geez Lyanna was a tomboy i don't see her as the person to be doing that "feelsy" thing in public.

Its not comparitive,its saying that absent POV's from Robert or Lyanna we can't say that,that situation anyone was ignoring anyone

Yes the author chose to show this scene for what purpose?What was it that he wanted us to see and did we see it?You came away with something different from it,so did i.Again all comes down to who got the right clues.