Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

[maudisdottir]

Bringing back the bones of one teenage girl wouldn't be such a burden, even with a newborn Jon in tow.  It would be a bit much though to have to haul another five boxes of adult male bones almost the length of the kingdoms.  That's a lot of extra luggage.

[Kingmonkey]

On 30/09/2016 at 4:39 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

I don't think the appendices avoid spoiler because if one were to have read the book then it wouldn't be a spoiler that Bran isn't dead and some people know he's alive.

Plus,if you haven't read the book and decide just to jump to the appendices fro some reason his use of the term "believed to be dead" is basically saying he's alive.

Well technically, before you start reading the first novel, the fact that Eddard Stark is the lord of Winterfell is a spoiler.

GRRM does give us information in the appendices that he hasn't revealed yet in the books, but he doesn't give information which spoils any kind of revelation. He'll give us the name of some character we might not meet for a book or two more, but that's no revelation. In the case of Bran, it's revealed he's really still alive in the same chapter we learn of the death of the miller's kids, so that's hardly a major revelation.

It sounds like we pretty much agree on the status of the appendices though. I think that makes it pretty solid that Lyanna's death in the red mountains of Dorne, whether true or not, is the general story and what GRRM wanted to reader to believe at that stage. That's all I wanted to establish.

On 30/09/2016 at 4:39 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

If Ned brought Lyanna's bones back  he didn't have to bury his friends he cold have burnt them to.So it is my belief Ned picked up Lyanna's bones en route from his fight with the KGs and  brought them home.

I'm not really sure what you're saying. If Ned could deal with 8 bodies then he could deal with 8 bodies whether there was a 9th present or not. Being able to deal with one body doesn't mean you can deal with nine. 

 Possibly Ned could have burned the dead at the ToJ and pulled their bones out of the fire to take home (given the vagaries of GRRM mechanics, anyway), but obviously he didn't. The fact that he erected 8 cairns indicates that it wasn't practical for him & Howland to either carry all 8 or 9 bodies with them, or excarnate them on the spot, with fire or otherwise. I don't see how that means they couldn't take one body with them. 

On 30/09/2016 at 4:39 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

What better place than an area where the sisters are silent and the brothers have taken a vow of silence except for confession.No one speaks.

So,again its a matter of percerption,of the readers and of the characters involved;how they think and why.Thus the appendices is a reflection of what is believed in the story.It is reading the story we can determine if the belief held by individuals is true.In the case of Lyanna and Dorne it fails the test of reliablity.

Of course, until it's in black and white, it's all interpretation. No argument there. 

However it only "fails the reliability" test in so far as we cannot state that the information which points to Lyanna's death in Dorne can be relied on to reflect reality.  That doesn't mean it has to be wrong. It still leaves us with a judgement of probability.

The idea that Lyanna was on the Quiet Isle is a nice idea, but you certainly can't say that passes the same test of reliability any better. It is a cool story, and it can't be disproved. Is that enough to say it's more likely than Dorne? Dorne can't be disproved either. Which you consider the better story isn't really relevant, because that doesn't indicate that it's more likely what GRRM would have chosen to do. Otherwise GRRM would have put laser-wielding rocketwombats in every chapter, because all stories are cooler with laser-wielding rocketwombats. Fact.

That just leaves the secondary attestation. For which there's a fair amount for Dorne, and none for the Quiet Isle. On that basis, I believe that Dorne, while not certain, is certainly the more likely possibility given the information we've been given so far.

As a bit of an aside, if Lyanna was in the Silent Isle, wouldn't that be more of a hint for R+L=J?  "His blood swirled downriver with the rubies from his breastplate..." would work quite nicely with his secret son washing up on the quiet island along with his rubies, wouldn't it? We never hear of Robert's blood washing up on the Quiet Isle...

 

[wolfmaid7]

On 10/1/2016 at 6:19 PM, Kingmonkey said:

Well technically, before you start reading the first novel, the fact that Eddard Stark is the lord of Winterfell is a spoiler.

GRRM does give us information in the appendices that he hasn't revealed yet in the books, but he doesn't give information which spoils any kind of revelation. He'll give us the name of some character we might not meet for a book or two more, but that's no revelation. In the case of Bran, it's revealed he's really still alive in the same chapter we learn of the death of the miller's kids, so that's hardly a major revelation.

It sounds like we pretty much agree on the status of the appendices though. I think that makes it pretty solid that Lyanna's death in the red mountains of Dorne, whether true or not, is the general story and what GRRM wanted to reader to believe at that stage. That's all I wanted to establish.

I'm not really sure what you're saying. If Ned could deal with 8 bodies then he could deal with 8 bodies whether there was a 9th present or not. Being able to deal with one body doesn't mean you can deal with nine. 

 Possibly Ned could have burned the dead at the ToJ and pulled their bones out of the fire to take home (given the vagaries of GRRM mechanics, anyway), but obviously he didn't. The fact that he erected 8 cairns indicates that it wasn't practical for him & Howland to either carry all 8 or 9 bodies with them, or excarnate them on the spot, with fire or otherwise. I don't see how that means they couldn't take one body with them. 

Of course, until it's in black and white, it's all interpretation. No argument there. 

However it only "fails the reliability" test in so far as we cannot state that the information which points to Lyanna's death in Dorne can be relied on to reflect reality.  That doesn't mean it has to be wrong. It still leaves us with a judgement of probability.

The idea that Lyanna was on the Quiet Isle is a nice idea, but you certainly can't say that passes the same test of reliability any better. It is a cool story, and it can't be disproved. Is that enough to say it's more likely than Dorne? Dorne can't be disproved either. Which you consider the better story isn't really relevant, because that doesn't indicate that it's more likely what GRRM would have chosen to do. Otherwise GRRM would have put laser-wielding rocketwombats in every chapter, because all stories are cooler with laser-wielding rocketwombats. Fact.

That just leaves the secondary attestation. For which there's a fair amount for Dorne, and none for the Quiet Isle. On that basis, I believe that Dorne, while not certain, is certainly the more likely possibility given the information we've been given so far.

As a bit of an aside, if Lyanna was in the Silent Isle, wouldn't that be more of a hint for R+L=J?  "His blood swirled downriver with the rubies from his breastplate..." would work quite nicely with his secret son washing up on the quiet island along with his rubies, wouldn't it? We never hear of Robert's blood washing up on the Quiet Isle...

 

place holder.

[wolfmaid7]

On 10/1/2016 at 6:19 PM, Kingmonkey said:

It sounds like we pretty much agree on the status of the appendices though. I think that makes it pretty solid that Lyanna's death in the red mountains of Dorne, whether true or not, is the general story and what GRRM wanted to reader to believe at that stage. That's all I wanted to establish.

Well,that's true enough.Given what characters in the story believe whether true or not minds would go to that.

On 10/1/2016 at 6:19 PM, Kingmonkey said:

I'm not really sure what you're saying. If Ned could deal with 8 bodies then he could deal with 8 bodies whether there was a 9th present or not. Being able to deal with one body doesn't mean you can deal with nine. 

 Possibly Ned could have burned the dead at the ToJ and pulled their bones out of the fire to take home (given the vagaries of GRRM mechanics, anyway), but obviously he didn't. The fact that he erected 8 cairns indicates that it wasn't practical for him & Howland to either carry all 8 or 9 bodies with them, or excarnate them on the spot, with fire or otherwise. I don't see how that means they couldn't take one body with them.

This here in all bring up some more issues.He in his waking moments talk about what he did with his friends bodies and no mention of having done anything with the body (if she was there) he pulled out of the structure before he pulled it down? 

I'm assuming he had to light a fire to burn Lyanna's body because he sure as hell wasn't hauling her flesh all the way back to WF.If she died at the toj on the same day with the kgs and his friends.Nobody saw any fire in the Princes pass indicating a Pyre.He speaks about bloddy stones nothing about fire anywhere. i'm not sure the furnishings at the toj would be enough for one body.

It wouldn't be practical to even burn one.Plus as i said there's not evidence of Ned burning anything.Evidence of a fight,evidence of bloody stone.No evidence of fire use at all.

On 10/1/2016 at 6:19 PM, Kingmonkey said:

Of course, until it's in black and white, it's all interpretation. No argument there. 

However it only "fails the reliability" test in so far as we cannot state that the information which points to Lyanna's death in Dorne can be relied on to reflect reality.  That doesn't mean it has to be wrong. It still leaves us with a judgement of probability.

The idea that Lyanna was on the Quiet Isle is a nice idea, but you certainly can't say that passes the same test of reliability any better. It is a cool story, and it can't be disproved. Is that enough to say it's more likely than Dorne? Dorne can't be disproved either. Which you consider the better story isn't really relevant, because that doesn't indicate that it's more likely what GRRM would have chosen to do. Otherwise GRRM would have put laser-wielding rocketwombats in every chapter, because all stories are cooler with laser-wielding rocketwombats. Fact.

That just leaves the secondary attestation. For which there's a fair amount for Dorne, and none for the Quiet Isle. On that basis, I believe that Dorne, while not certain, is certainly the more likely possibility given the information we've been given so far.

As a bit of an aside, if Lyanna was in the Silent Isle, wouldn't that be more of a hint for R+L=J?  "His blood swirled downriver with the rubies from his breastplate..." would work quite nicely with his secret son washing up on the quiet island along with his rubies, wouldn't it? We never hear of Robert's blood washing up on the Quiet Isle...

True, as i said the dream in conjunction with Ned's waking moment recollection,the plausibility for me is a serious red flag.But despite that it may not matter it could possibly be correct.

Oh i'm not saying it being a better story has anything to do with it.I could see the practicality of her being in a place where people don't speak unless to confess sins.Well as to the test of reliability.

1.Not far from Harrenhall to be a perfect place to disappear to

2.Noble women would go there if they weresick,hurt or  preggers

3.The mudflats when the tide is down is said to be safe passage for the faithful and  swallow the wicked. Thank goodness a mud-man(Howland) was there to help.

4.The fact that no one knows that she was there because no one could say anything works in its favor

5.It is a place that accepts and takes care of women who are pregnant and want to be discreet.

6.The they who found Ned holding her is certainly accounted for without having to do alot of fitting in.

 

So,now we come to the second hand testimony of people like Lady Barbery,and the Maesters from the app is it? Its not eye witness account this is all hearsay and assumption on their part.It can of proves my point of the unreliable narrator.Barbery knows where her husband died and assumes Lyanna's bones came from the same place.

Why would it be a hint? I guess it  could be if you want it to be,but i don't see how it is. There was clearly more than 7 rubies on Rhaegar's armour.The significance of that was a religious one because the devout wish to see it as such.Beyond that is stretching.I'm pretty sure Rhaegar's blood as well as hundreds of others who died that day and were injured ended up down river.But again we can see who the importance of the rubies were meant to address.

Its no different than if i were to use:

My son, how could I have made a son like that Ned………..“It would not trouble me if the boy was wild, <snip>Agot Ned.”

“Thorne staggered back, rubbing the marks Jon’s fingers had left on his neck. “You see for yourselves, brothers. The boy is a wildling.” Jon,Asos.

And then yell aha!!!!

 

[Kingmonkey]

On 04/10/2016 at 3:59 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

This here in all bring up some more issues.He in his waking moments talk about what he did with his friends bodies and no mention of having done anything with the body (if she was there) he pulled out of the structure before he pulled it down? 

On the contrary. What he did with Lyanna's body -- bring it back to the north to bury her in the crypts, against all tradition -- is the very first thing we learn about Lyanna. 

That he doesn't go into details is no objection. Why should he? There is no context in which doing so would make sense. It would be absurd if he stopped mid-tragic thoughts to have an internal monologue about the technicalities of transporting bodies over long distances.

On 04/10/2016 at 3:59 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

I'm assuming he had to light a fire to burn Lyanna's body because he sure as hell wasn't hauling her flesh all the way back to WF.If she died at the toj on the same day with the kgs and his friends.Nobody saw any fire in the Princes pass indicating a Pyre.He speaks about bloddy stones nothing about fire anywhere. i'm not sure the furnishings at the toj would be enough for one body.

I doubt he carried her body all the way to Winterfell before handing her over to the Silent Sisters. 

Quote

"Jory and the others …"
"I gave them over to the silent sisters, to be sent north to Winterfell. Jory would want to lie beside his grandfather."
It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. 

AGOT ch.39

He directly contrasts the two situations. With Jory, there were Silent Sisters available locally to deal with the bodies. At the ToJ, there were not. He'd have had to get Lyanna to the Silent Sisters wherever it was she found her. Transporting one body to Starfall to be prepared by the Silent Sisters is a reasonable proposition. Nine, not so much.

On 04/10/2016 at 3:59 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

Oh i'm not saying it being a better story has anything to do with it.I could see the practicality of her being in a place where people don't speak unless to confess sins.Well as to the test of reliability.

1.Not far from Harrenhall to be a perfect place to disappear to

2.Noble women would go there if they weresick,hurt or  preggers

3.The mudflats when the tide is down is said to be safe passage for the faithful and  swallow the wicked. Thank goodness a mud-man(Howland) was there to help.

4.The fact that no one knows that she was there because no one could say anything works in its favor

5.It is a place that accepts and takes care of women who are pregnant and want to be discreet.

6.The they who found Ned holding her is certainly accounted for without having to do alot of fitting in.

Not one of these numbered passages provides any actual evidence that it happened. There are a lot of places near Harrenhal, and there's nothing to say it had to be near Harrenhal anyway. Women went to other places too. Nothing ever links Howland to the Quiet Isle. Nobody could say anything if she was at the ToJ either, because everyone died. "They" isn't an issue of any significance, because it does not contradict any version of the story.

There is zero evidence provided here, just reasons why it could make sense. That you can argue it is a "better story" is in fact all you've done here.

On 04/10/2016 at 3:59 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

So,now we come to the second hand testimony of people like Lady Barbery,and the Maesters from the app is it? Its not eye witness account this is all hearsay and assumption on their part.It can of proves my point of the unreliable narrator.Barbery knows where her husband died and assumes Lyanna's bones came from the same place.

That something cannot be proven true does not make it proven false. We have only one single eyewitness account of the ToJ, Ned's dream. In that, Lyanna was present. That doesn't mean she was necessarily present in reality, but at least it's a reason to believe it. In contrast there are no eyewitness accounts, even in dream form, placing her at the Quiet Isle. Nothing, nada, zip. 

I don't discount the possibility. It's kind of a nice fit. But that's all it is. When it comes to assessing likelihood, we have nothing to indicate the Quiet Isle apart from the fact that it's possible. To place it above the ToJ is to dismiss the only evidence that we have because it's not conclusive, in favour of something that is purely speculative. Weak evidence trumps zero evidence.

On 04/10/2016 at 3:59 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

Why would it be a hint? I guess it  could be if you want it to be,but i don't see how it is. There was clearly more than 7 rubies on Rhaegar's armour.The significance of that was a religious one because the devout wish to see it as such.Beyond that is stretching.I'm pretty sure Rhaegar's blood as well as hundreds of others who died that day and were injured ended up down river.But again we can see who the importance of the rubies were meant to address.

We are specifically told that Rhaegar's blood mingled with the waters and flowed downstream, but we are actually told that about nobody else, however safe the assumption may be. We are specifically invited to link his blood in the water with his rubies (which are blood-coloured) in the water. We are told that Rhaegar's rubies washed up on the Quiet Isle, in a manner that makes us ask why we are given this detail. We are continually reminded of the secondary usage of blood to indicate children. 

If you're then going to suggest that Lyanna arrived at the Quiet Isle, just like Rhaegar's rubies/blood, and had a child there by an unknown father, the connection is frankly pretty obvious. 

According to your version of events:

Rhaegar's rubies/blood ended up on the Quiet Isle.

Lyanna's child/blood ended up on the Quiet Isle.

The conclusion seems pretty obvious. 

 

[wolfmaid7]

21 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

On the contrary. What he did with Lyanna's body -- bring it back to the north to bury her in the crypts, against all tradition -- is the very first thing we learn about Lyanna. 

That he doesn't go into details is no objection. Why should he? There is no context in which doing so would make sense. It would be absurd if he stopped mid-tragic thoughts to have an internal monologue about the technicalities of transporting bodies over long distances.

Ah you misunderstand me.First we know why he broke tradition....Lyanna asked.She wanted to lay with Brandon and Rickard.The details i speak of in his waking moments should have been present when he spoke of burying the KGS and his friends on the ridge.There is a disconnect between that recollection and his recollection in the crypts.There should have been some mention of removing Lyanna from the tower(if she was there) before he pulled it down to make the cairns.

21 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

I doubt he carried her body all the way to Winterfell before handing her over to the Silent Sisters. 

I doubt he carried her body all the way to WF to,which is why i'm proposing he may have collected Lyanna's bones elsewhere before heading back to WF.

21 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

That something cannot be proven true does not make it proven false. We have only one single eyewitness account of the ToJ, Ned's dream. In that, Lyanna was present. That doesn't mean she was necessarily present in reality, but at least it's a reason to believe it. In contrast there are no eyewitness accounts, even in dream form, placing her at the Quiet Isle. Nothing, nada, zip. 

I don't discount the possibility. It's kind of a nice fit. But that's all it is. When it comes to assessing likelihood, we have nothing to indicate the Quiet Isle apart from the fact that it's possible. To place it above the ToJ is to dismiss the only evidence that we have because it's not conclusive, in favour of something that is purely speculative. Weak evidence trumps zero evidence.

A correction Lyanna was not "present" in the dream....What we get was Lyanna screaming when the swords began to clash.As to the Quiet Isle you are 100% right there is no eye witness account of Lyanna being there but that's not a problem, it helps the case.We have a place within vicinity where nobel girls go if injured,sick or pregant and its a place where people only speak during confession.It several ittle things that when put together makes it more viable for me.

Besides when i highlighted for why i don't think she was there is GRRM's cautionary statement that Ned was dreaming and things in our dream aren't always literal.But its easy to look at the dream and through the process of elmination determine what he's getting at.

1.We know Ned had a fight with the kgs at a place Rhaegar called toj.That was true in Ned's waking state.

2.We know who was there as that was true as well.

3.We know where those people were...The Red Mountains of Dorne.Also verified.

Then we get a couple of things that are very obscure and or symbolic.

1.Wraits and shadows that became men who we later got identities of from Ned.

2. Then we get Lyanna screaming and roses across a blood streaked sky.
 

Quote

 

"I have a question which I'm sure you can (and will?) answer. It's about the Tower of Joy. The image we get from Ned's description is pretty powerful. But it doesn't make sense. The top three kingsguards, including the lord commander amd the best knight in ages, Ser Arthur Dayne are present there. Lyanna is in the tower, she asked Ned to promise him something. This, so says the general consensus us little Jon Snow, who is Lyanna's and Rhaegar's. No sense denying this

However, what are the Kingsguards doing fighting Eddard? Eddard would never hurt Lyanna, nor her child. The little one would be safe with Eddard as well, him being a close relative. So I ask you, was there someone else with Lyanna and Jon?

Grrm: You'll need to wait for future books to find out more about the Tower of Joy and what happened there, I fear.I might mention, though, that Ned's account, which you refer to, was in the context of a dream... and a fever dream at that. Our dreams are not always literal.

 

 

 

I don't think GRRM believes anyone would think that roses scattered across a blood streaked sky was anything but symbolic.So that leaves Lyanna screaming and the only thing he could be talking about was the assumption that Lyanna and a baby Jon were there. The other things mentiomed in the dream were proven to be true.Kingmonky GRRM would never comment about this if assumptions about it were correct....and we know what in the dream is true to the waking narrative and what isn't.

The reason it doesn't make sense is Lyanna and or a  baby Jon being present...Take that away and it makes perfect sense.

I don't think the Quiet Isle is weaker than the toj which is made weak by Ned's waking recollection ,made weak by process of elimination of what is true and symbolic/obscure and made even weaker by GRRM's statement

21 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

We are specifically told that Rhaegar's blood mingled with the waters and flowed downstream, but we are actually told that about nobody else, however safe the assumption may be. We are specifically invited to link his blood in the water with his rubies (which are blood-coloured) in the water. We are told that Rhaegar's rubies washed up on the Quiet Isle, in a manner that makes us ask why we are given this detail. We are continually reminded of the secondary usage of blood to indicate children. 

If you're then going to suggest that Lyanna arrived at the Quiet Isle, just like Rhaegar's rubies/blood, and had a child there by an unknown father, the connection is frankly pretty obvious. 

According to your version of events:

Rhaegar's rubies/blood ended up on the Quiet Isle.

Lyanna's child/blood ended up on the Quiet Isle.

The conclusion seems pretty obvious. 

The context.....Jorah is being Jorah and using colorful language to retell an event.It is present the moment he opens his mouth.Why should we have been told this about anyone else when the subject of the conversation was Rhaegar and his defeat at the Trident.

As to the connections,i don't think it is anything more than religious association by the devout of what they see as precious and significant.However,i can go another route with this. 

We have found silver cups and iron pots, sacks of wool and bolts of silk, rusted helms and shining swords... aye, and rubies.”
That interested Ser Hyle. “Rhaegar’s rubies?”
“It may be. Who can say? The battle was long leagues from here, but the river is tireless and patient. Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh.”

As you can see "rubies" aren't the only thing that washed up on the Quiet  Isle "regular things" which one of these could be symbolically Jon? Is a someone's silver cup,sack of wool etc? Just another bastard that the river spits up.In here i see another one of GRRM sign that says "don't take the bait,the rubies are just for show the other things are the real treasure."

I go more for the subtly in this one.You could be right maybe the rubies mean something more than the religious seem to think.Rhaegar's baby  Or maybe what the author is showing is while eveyone want something to  be a ruby what it might simply be is a silver cup.

 

[Kingmonkey]

5 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Ah you misunderstand me.First we know why he broke tradition....Lyanna asked.She wanted to lay with Brandon and Rickard.The details i speak of in his waking moments should have been present when he spoke of burying the KGS and his friends on the ridge.There is a disconnect between that recollection and his recollection in the crypts.There should have been some mention of removing Lyanna from the tower(if she was there) before he pulled it down to make the cairns.

Why should there have been?  The subject was the burial of the eight warriors, to mention Lyanna here would be an irrelevant aside, and would have been weird. Look at the text, where would it be natural to talk about Lyanna?

"It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two had lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed. He did not think it omened well that he should dream that dream again after so many years."

He's talking about the fight, and the consequences of it, linking the dream he'd just had with the fight with Jaime's men where Jordy died. Sure, GRRM could have inserted something like "Ned had pulled the tower down afterwards, though he did remember to take Lyanna's body out before doing so". Yes, he could of course word it a bit less flippantly than that, but it would still be an irrelevant detail that would derail the chain of thought. That GRRM doesn't say it doesn't mean it didn't happen. There's no menion of Ned taking a piss in the bushes, or cleaning his sword after the battle, or binding his wounds, or lots of other things. They might have happened too.

5 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

A correction Lyanna was not "present" in the dream....

"He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood"

Ned thinks she was present in the dream. In the real world, the bed of blood may have been at a different location, but there is only one location in Ned's dream, yet Ned's dream includes "Lyanna in her bed of blood". 

5 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

As to the Quiet Isle you are 100% right there is no eye witness account of Lyanna being there but that's not a problem, it helps the case.We have a place within vicinity where nobel girls go if injured,sick or pregant and its a place where people only speak during confession.It several ittle things that when put together makes it more viable for me.

You present "in within the vicinity" as if it was an argument for; why shouldn't it be an argument against? Why would someone who's hiding or being hidden go somewhere nearby?

So how about, just for example, the God's Eye? That's even nearer, it's got a far better link to Howland Reed than your notion that he would be handy to steer Lyanna through the mudflats at the Quiet Isle, it's full of the wisest people around, good to have if you're planning to have a baby in the wilds, and secrets would be kept even better than at the Quiet Isle. Of course there are no eyewitnesses, but wouldn't that help the case as much as it helps the Quiet Isle?

Each of the arguments you propose for the Quiet Isle argues for its feasibility but none of them argue for its actuality. None of the points you make are exclusive to the Quiet Isle, or to Lyanna. I agree it works as a story. I agree there is nothing to prove that it did not happen. However there is nothing to point that it actually DID happen rather than simply being a possibility.  

Keep in mind that ToJ or Quiet Isle is a false dichotomy. There are many possibilities, not just two. Believing that the ToJ should be eliminated from that list does not make the Quiet Isle any more likely than those other possibilities. 

5 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

1.We know Ned had a fight with the kgs at a place Rhaegar called toj.That was true in Ned's waking state.

2.We know who was there as that was true as well.

3.We know where those people were...The Red Mountains of Dorne.Also verified.

Then we get a couple of things that are very obscure and or symbolic.

1.Wraits and shadows that became men who we later got identities of from Ned.

2. Then we get Lyanna screaming and roses across a blood streaked sky.

The way you've divided that up is very misleading. You've placed Lyanna screaming alongside the storm of rose petals as if they were the same thing, but they are not. Those should have been different lines.

1.Wraiths and shadows 

2. Lyanna screaming

3. Roses across a blood streaked sky.

That would make much clearer an important point here: that unlike the other two things, a woman screaming is something that actually happens. Why did you chose to list Lyanna screaming as "things that are very obscure and symbolic", rather than categorising it as a normal event? You're using your conclusion to prove the conclusion!

You pointed out with the first list that those are verified elements. There are actually lots of other elements to the dream that are not verified elsewhere -- the entire dialogue, for example. Why exclude those elements? You're omitting the bulk of the dream. 

5 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I don't think GRRM believes anyone would think that roses scattered across a blood streaked sky was anything but symbolic.So that leaves Lyanna screaming and the only thing he could be talking about was the assumption that Lyanna and a baby Jon were there. The other things mentiomed in the dream were proven to be true.Kingmonky GRRM would never comment about this if assumptions about it were correct....and we know what in the dream is true to the waking narrative and what isn't.

Look at the question GRRM was actually answering: 

"However, what are the Kingsguards doing fighting Eddard? Eddard would never hurt Lyanna, nor her child. The little one would be safe with Eddard as well, him being a close relative. So I ask you, was there someone else with Lyanna and Jon?"

GRRM doesn't answer that question, for obvious reasons. Instead he gives a warning that addresses the questioner's assumptions. Could that assumption be the presence of Lyanna? Yes. Is that the only thing? No. The dream does not answer the question of why the KG were fighting Eddard satisfactorily, which was the basis of the question. GRRM tells us the dream should not be taken literally. Just because there is no reason for the 3KG and Eddard to have to fight apparent in the dream doesn't mean there was not some reason apparent in reality. 

 

5 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

The context.....Jorah is being Jorah and using colorful language to retell an event.It is present the moment he opens his mouth.Why should we have been told this about anyone else when the subject of the conversation was Rhaegar and his defeat at the Trident.

It's important what GRRM is telling us, not who's mouth he puts it in. However I'm not going to make a big point of debate this, it's not my argument!

5 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

We have found silver cups and iron pots, sacks of wool and bolts of silk, rusted helms and shining swords... aye, and rubies.”
That interested Ser Hyle. “Rhaegar’s rubies?”
“It may be. Who can say? The battle was long leagues from here, but the river is tireless and patient. Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh.”

As you can see "rubies" aren't the only thing that washed up on the Quiet  Isle "regular things" which one of these could be symbolically Jon? Is a someone's silver cup,sack of wool etc? Just another bastard that the river spits up.In here i see another one of GRRM sign that says "don't take the bait,the rubies are just for show the other things are the real treasure."

That's a really interesting observation, and makes me wonder if we can't pin some specific symbolism on the other things that washed up. Probably not, but it might be fun trying. You've got a bit of a false division there though -- the other items are by no means all "regular things". The rubies have washed up alongside other objects that represent a spectrum within which the rubies are found. Look at those other items:

Silver cup / Iron pot

Bolts of silk / sack if wool

Shining sword / rusty helmet

Each example comes in pair, a treasure and its common equivalent. The river does not pay heed to wealth and title, it washes up the properties of noble and commoner alike. 

Perhaps we should wonder what the missing eighth item to was up is? We need something that is at essence the same as the prince's blood rubies, but everyday and unregarded rather than being a shining, silvery, silk-clad prince. A bastard with prince's blood perhaps?

I'm almost starting to persuade myself! I may need to start agreeing with you on the Quiet Isle. 

 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 8-10-2016 at 11:29 PM, Kingmonkey said:

On the contrary. What he did with Lyanna's body -- bring it back to the north to bury her in the crypts, against all tradition -- is the very first thing we learn about Lyanna. 

Actually, burying Lyanna in the crypts of Winterfell is not going against the tradition. It would seem that all five of the Stark children have their tombs waiting for them in Winterfell already.

Ned stopped at last and lifted the oil lantern. The crypt continued on into darkness ahead of them, but beyond this point the tombs were empty and unsealed; black holes waiting for their dead, waiting for him and his children. Ned did not like to think on that. "Here," he told his king.

(AGOT, Eddard I)

Jojen's mossy eyes were full of pity. "They won't be able to stop him, Bran. I couldn't see why, but I saw the end of it. I saw you and Rickon in your crypts, down in the dark with all the dead kings and their stone wolves."

(ACOK Bran V)

Their footsteps echoed through the cavernous crypts. The shadows behind them swallowed his father as the shadows ahead retreated to unveil other statues; no mere lords, these, but the old Kings in the North. On their brows they wore stone crowns. Torrhen Stark, the King Who Knelt. Edwyn the Spring King. Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf. Brandon the Burner and Brandon the Shipwright. Jorah and Jonos, Brandon the Bad, Walton the Moon King, Edderion the Bridegroom, Eyron, Benjen the Sweet and Benjen the Bitter, King Edrick Snowbeard. Their faces were stern and strong, and some of them had done terrible things, but they were Starks every one, and Bran knew all their tales. He had never feared the crypts; they were part of his home and who he was, and he had always known that one day he would lie here too.

(ACOK, Bran VII)

If only the Kings of Winter and the Lords of Winterfell were burried int he crypts, Bran should not have "always known" that he'd be burried there as well, some day. Nor should Jojen find it normal that Rickon would have a tomb in the crypts. 

So, burrying Lyanna, and Brandon, in the crypts, was not going against tradition.. Giving them a statue, that's against the tradition.

"And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father's brother. They're not supposed to have statues, that's only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done."

 

Separately, we see in the story how much value is placed at receiving the bones of the deceased. Eddard's bones being transported to the North, as well as the bones of the servants from Winterfell who died in King's Landing, are part of the negotiations of Robb. Genna wishes to retrieve the remains of her son from the war-torn riverlands, even though Jaime has told her he is already burried. So Eddard bringing Lyanna back home, but leaving the others behind, might easily have some meaning. Especially if you consider that leaving the bones of the loved ones of others behind while bringing home the bones of your own loved one is taken, at least by one person, as an insult.

"Ned Stark returned the horse to me on his way back home to Winterfell. He told me that my lord had died an honorable death, that his body had been laid to rest beneath the red mountains of Dorne. He brought his sister's bones back north, though, and there she rests … but I promise you, Lord Eddard's bones will never rest beside hers. I mean to feed them to my dogs."

 

 

[wolfmaid7]

On 10/9/2016 at 7:44 PM, Kingmonkey said:

Why should there have been?  The subject was the burial of the eight warriors, to mention Lyanna here would be an irrelevant aside, and would have been weird. Look at the text, where would it be natural to talk about Lyanna?

It should have been there because per the dream and common interpretation her screaming is linked with the moment the swords clashed.And it should be there because per conventional thinking it is inextricably intertwined with the fight and what happened at the toj.Him removing Lyanna's body from the toj should have been mentioned and could have been mentioned before saying he pulled the tower down.It could have been mentioned just before stating what he did with his friends and the kgs bodies.That was all tied to the bitter memory.

 

On 10/9/2016 at 7:44 PM, Kingmonkey said:

"He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood"

Ned thinks she was present in the dream. In the real world, the bed of blood may have been at a different location, but there is only one location in Ned's dream, yet Ned's dream includes "Lyanna in her bed of blood". 

I mentioned it for a reason,we do not "see" Lyanna in the dream we only know that she screamed in Ned's dream and that screamed is linked to when the swords clashed.This ofcourse goes toward the link between "bed of blood" which means violence of which childbirth could be considered but not only.

On 10/9/2016 at 7:44 PM, Kingmonkey said:

The way you've divided that up is very misleading. You've placed Lyanna screaming alongside the storm of rose petals as if they were the same thing, but they are not. Those should have been different lines.

Didn't mean to say they are the same thing,which they can't be for obvious reasons. Meant to show that the correlation between the screaming and the rose petal fisaco.

As to why list Lyanna screaming as obscure:

" He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper,....."

Again,there seems to be a disconnect between the dream with regards to Lyanna and the Ned's waking.That she had a fever and that it had taken her strength tells me that it is unlikely that she could have conjured such a scream to cut through the grunts and slashing of swords.

On 10/9/2016 at 7:44 PM, Kingmonkey said:

The dream does not answer the question of why the KG were fighting Eddard satisfactorily, which was the basis of the question. GRRM tells us the dream should not be taken literally. Just because there is no reason for the 3KG and Eddard to have to fight apparent in the dream doesn't mean there was not some reason apparent in reality. 

Yeahi think  it does! 

Spoiler

 

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold Said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the seige," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."

"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Sir Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold.

Ned's wraiths moved up beside him, with shadow swords in hand. They were seven against three.

"And now it begins," said Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. He unsheathed Dawn and held it with both hands. The blade was pale as milkglass, alive with light.

 

This conversation shows imo that the KGs knew they lossed,they sure as hell wasn't going to bend to the usurper so they were "Cortnay Pentrosing" it...

"A man who changes kings and gods the way I change my boots. As do these other turncloaks I see before me."

They were not going to change sides,that was abudantly clear,and they were not going to run away.They were going down swinging...Honorable death,that is what they wanted.To die with their honor in tact.

On 10/9/2016 at 7:44 PM, Kingmonkey said:

It's important what GRRM is telling us, not who's mouth he puts it in. However I'm not going to make a big point of debate this, it's not my argument!

I agree what he's telling us is important,imo there's no hidden meaning behind Jorah saying Rhaegar's blood and his rubies flowed downstream.

On 10/9/2016 at 7:44 PM, Kingmonkey said:

That's a really interesting observation, and makes me wonder if we can't pin some specific symbolism on the other things that washed up. Probably not, but it might be fun trying. You've got a bit of a false division there though -- the other items are by no means all "regular things". The rubies have washed up alongside other objects that represent a spectrum within which the rubies are found. Look at those other items:

I put "reguar items" items in quotes to make a point concerning how in the eyes of the Elder brother compared to the rubies those items may seem less.Yet, the rubies had no greater value than the seemingly "regular things" in truth except to be something to look forward to,an expectation that having 7 rubies may somehow mean something other than what the inhabitants of the Isle project.While they are looking at the rubies salvation really came from the "regular things" they were more and gave more. I think its true for the fans as well.We place value on the obviously valuable and assigned it and you know what that maybe the case.If this tale of Elder brother has a deeper meaning designed by the author  then what is it and what meaning can be determined by it.

I think whether or not the objects in the river are treasure or trash depends on the eye of the beholder,in this case the reader. I think if there is a deeper meaning then the author is saying just that.Again from my view point everything in the river is either treasure as indicated by Elder brother's "Not all the river's gifts are pleasant."

He then preceded to name dead things:Drowned cows,drowned deer,drowed pigs.As of later corpses of men.

But to get to the treasure or the pleasant things i think if we "want" to say that they all represent people then who is to say Jon is a ruby and not just another pleasant thing,or a drowned cow,or deer or pig?

His association with the dead is pretty established.

[Ygrain]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Him removing Lyanna's body from the toj should have been mentioned and could have been mentioned before saying he pulled the tower down.It could have been mentioned just before stating what he did with his friends and the kgs bodies.That was all tied to the bitter memory.

And why should it have been mentioned, when it was estrablished right it Ned's first PoV chapter that he had brought Lyanna to be buried at home? There is no reason to repeat here what the reader already knows.

[Bael's Bastard]

On 10/10/2016 at 4:19 AM, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

So, burrying Lyanna, and Brandon, in the crypts, was not going against tradition.. Giving them a statue, that's against the tradition.

"And there's my grandfather, Lord Rickard, who was beheaded by Mad King Aerys. His daughter Lyanna and his son Brandon are in the tombs beside him. Not me, another Brandon, my father's brother. They're not supposed to have statues, that's only for the lords and the kings, but my father loved them so much he had them done."

And a tradition which had already been "broken" around fifty years before it was done for Brandon and Lyanna, so perhaps a tradition which may have been "broken" from time to time throughout history.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

2 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

And a tradition which had already been "broken" around fifty years before it was done for Brandon and Lyanna, so perhaps a tradition which may have been "broken" from time to time throughout history.

Completely true.

[Kingmonkey]

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

It should have been there because per the dream and common interpretation her screaming is linked with the moment the swords clashed.And it should be there because per conventional thinking it is inextricably intertwined with the fight and what happened at the toj.Him removing Lyanna's body from the toj should have been mentioned and could have been mentioned before saying he pulled the tower down.It could have been mentioned just before stating what he did with his friends and the kgs bodies.That was all tied to the bitter memory.

No it should not have been mentioned because it would have been completely out of place. That wasn't what Ned was thinking about, it was not part of his chain of thoughts. He was comparing and contrasting the deaths of Jory and Martyn Cassel, Lyanna wasn't the topic. 

Eddard wasn't narrating to the reader what happened in the past, he was going through an emotional internal monologue. To insert such a thought in that place purely for the sake of factual clarification would have been a terrible choice. It's a novel, not a jigsaw puzzle, and the text has to serve character, atmosphere and mystery, not bland exposition of events for the sake of recounting the events of the past as clearly as possible to those of us readers who are attempting to pick apart the puzzles.

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Didn't mean to say they are the same thing,which they can't be for obvious reasons. Meant to show that the correlation between the screaming and the rose petal fisaco.

Placing the scream and the rose petals together in one sentence with the same number in front of them doesn't show any correlation -- you missed that step. 

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

As to why list Lyanna screaming as obscure:

" He could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper,....."

These things happened at different times, in different circumstances. The fact that at some indeterminate time later, on the verge of death, Lyanna's voice was quiet does not mean she couldn't have screamed earlier. 

What's more, even if she didn't in fact scream, so what? For Ned to imagine that she had screamed at that moment is hardly incompatible with him thinking of her as being inside the tower!

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

This conversation shows imo that the KGs knew they lossed,they sure as hell wasn't going to bend to the usurper so they were "Cortnay Pentrosing" it...

You're drawing a lot of conclusions based on a literal interpretation of the dialogue in a dream which you're eager to point out GRRM has called a fever dream that shouldn't be taken literally. 

If the 3KG were still loyal to the Targs and simply refusing to change sides or bend the knee, why were they so dismissive when asked why they weren't protecting the Targ heir?

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

But to get to the treasure or the pleasant things i think if we "want" to say that they all represent people then who is to say Jon is a ruby and not just another pleasant thing,or a drowned cow,or deer or pig?

Ah but I'm not saying that Jon is a ruby. My point was based on the fact that that these things come in pairs. An iron pot and silver cup are both containers of fluids. A sack of wool and bale of silk are both materials for clothing. A rusty helmet and a shining sword are both soldier's gear. They represent two opposite ends of a spectrum though; an example of a container, soldier's gear, and materials from the noble world and one from the common world. Following this pattern, Jon would indeed not be the ruby.  He's a bastard, thus he's the common article, while the rubies are clearly a noble article. The pairing is Rhaegar's blood, with the rubies being the noble and Jon being the common example. 

[wolfmaid7]

23 hours ago, Ygrain said:

And why should it have been mentioned, when it was estrablished right it Ned's first PoV chapter that he had brought Lyanna to be buried at home? There is no reason to repeat here what the reader already knows.

What was established was Ned brought Lyanna's body from somehere. It was not established that he tool Lyanna's body from "that" tower before he pulled it down to make the cairns for the KGS and his friends.That is the only body unaccounted for when it has to do with "that place."

22 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

No it should not have been mentioned because it would have been completely out of place. That wasn't what Ned was thinking about, it was not part of his chain of thoughts. He was comparing and contrasting the deaths of Jory and Martyn Cassel, Lyanna wasn't the topic. 

Eddard wasn't narrating to the reader what happened in the past, he was going through an emotional internal monologue. To insert such a thought in that place purely for the sake of factual clarification would have been a terrible choice. It's a novel, not a jigsaw puzzle, and the text has to serve character, atmosphere and mystery, not bland exposition of events for the sake of recounting the events of the past as clearly as possible to those of us readers who are attempting to pick apart the puzzles.

Placing the scream and the rose petals together in one sentence with the same number in front of them doesn't show any correlation -- you missed that step. 

These things happened at different times, in different circumstances. The fact that at some indeterminate time later, on the verge of death, Lyanna's voice was quiet does not mean she couldn't have screamed earlier. 

What's more, even if she didn't in fact scream, so what? For Ned to imagine that she had screamed at that moment is hardly incompatible with him thinking of her as being inside the tower!

You're drawing a lot of conclusions based on a literal interpretation of the dialogue in a dream which you're eager to point out GRRM has called a fever dream that shouldn't be taken literally. 

If the 3KG were still loyal to the Targs and simply refusing to change sides or bend the knee, why were they so dismissive when asked why they weren't protecting the Targ heir?

Ah but I'm not saying that Jon is a ruby. My point was based on the fact that that these things come in pairs. An iron pot and silver cup are both containers of fluids. A sack of wool and bale of silk are both materials for clothing. A rusty helmet and a shining sword are both soldier's gear. They represent two opposite ends of a spectrum though; an example of a container, soldier's gear, and materials from the noble world and one from the common world. Following this pattern, Jon would indeed not be the ruby.  He's a bastard, thus he's the common article, while the rubies are clearly a noble article. The pairing is Rhaegar's blood, with the rubies being the noble and Jon being the common example. 

I disagree with your first point. If as it is being proposed Lyanna was there and Ned's intro was sequential and factual in its element then Lyanna has already been introduced.

To your second point i agree it was an emotional internal monologue and not mentioning removing your sister's body from a structure before tearing it down isn't emotional. I think it is.Ned told us what he did with the bodies of his friends and Kgs and it is in such a saw it isn't just factual it was emotional because of how stuff went down. Eh eh,i don't think at that moment where Ned was speaking about pulling down the structure a mention of taking Lyanna's  body out would be out of place.

Nor do i think when in the crypts remembering Lyanna's death at the moment he said "he can't remember any of it." There was bridge to the fight that took place outside moments before.And this is my problem there is a disconnect between this:

They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it."

and Ned's waking moments.

I see what you are saying,again didn't mean to say the scream and roses were the same.

Quote

"These things happened at different times, in different circumstances. The fact that at some indeterminate time later, on the verge of death, Lyanna's voice was quiet does not mean she couldn't have screamed earlier. "

This here is my point.

Ned imagining her screaming at that moment the swords clashed could have been as simple as her getting into a sword fight and him not being there to defend her when it happened.Or as you say Lyanna may not have screamed at all and that is very likely.

The dialogue in the dream is specific and that is something without symbolism ascribed to it.Its a simple Ned asked and they said- No distortion of that portion of the dream.

I don't think they were dismissive of protecting the Targ heir.Ned hit them where it kind of hurts.There was a alot of boasting and bravado of what would have happened if they were there,and what they would have done.

Ned said to them Darry "fled" with Viserys and Rhaella and he thought they would have sailed with them.

Essentially Ned is telling them he thought they "ran away to" which got the response that running away isn't what they do which Ned was about to find out at the moment when Arthur unsheath Dawn.

Quote

 

"He's a bastard, thus he's the common article, while the rubies are clearly a noble article. The pairing is Rhaegar's blood, with the rubies being the noble and Jon being the common example. "

 

I'm not buying that explanation.I mean he's already of noble blood because of Lyanna....This is one of those things to subjective because of varying interpretation that can come from that.

I mean i can make an association with the dead cow and the deer (horned animals) pig (killed Robert) and throw in how he's strongly associated with the dead per Mel and Jon's own vision and boom we got something.

 

[Ygrain]

8 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

What was established was Ned brought Lyanna's body from somehere. It was not established that he tool Lyanna's body from "that" tower before he pulled it down to make the cairns for the KGS and his friends.That is the only body unaccounted for when it has to do with "that place."

But of course it is established. His memory of Lyanna's death contains blood, roses and "promise me", and so does the dream. Meaning, the place where Lyanna died and the place shown in the dream are the same. It really wouldn't make sense to write the dream including those three elements (especially the promise which we know was the very last moment of Lyanna's life), if Lyanna died elsewhere.

[J. Stargaryen]

How many times does the text have to place Lyanna at the ToJ before it counts?

[wolfmaid7]

15 hours ago, Ygrain said:

But of course it is established. His memory of Lyanna's death contains blood, roses and "promise me", and so does the dream. Meaning, the place where Lyanna died and the place shown in the dream are the same. It really wouldn't make sense to write the dream including those three elements (especially the promise which we know was the very last moment of Lyanna's life), if Lyanna died elsewhere.

I disagree.Blood,roses and her saying Promise me Ned doesn't put her death there.It would make sense elsewhere because those elements are symbolic and transient.

Does blood,roses and promise me put her location in the Crypts to when she died?

14 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

How many times does the text have to place Lyanna at the ToJ before it counts?

Jstar seriously the text doesn't put her there.Your interpretation of what you consider clues puts her there.

[Sly Wren]

15 hours ago, Ygrain said:

But of course it is established. His memory of Lyanna's death contains blood, roses and "promise me", and so does the dream.

No--the dream is interrupted--we don't get the whole thing and thus don't know exactly how it winds up. We know the tower comes down. We know Ned finds Lyanna in a bed of blood, but we don't know if the bed of blood is in the tower. Not yet.

The part of the dream we get has Ned hear Lyanna scream "as" the fight begins, Has the rose petals "storm" and the blood streaked sky show up "as" the fight begins.

So, we know Ned associates that fight (and his emotion towards Arthur) with Lyanna screaming, rose petals, and a blood streaked sky. Something about that fight itself horrifies Ned and makes him think of Lyanna.

But exactly how that association works, if Lyanna is at the tower or not, the books haven't given us. Not yet.

15 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Meaning, the place where Lyanna died and the place shown in the dream are the same.

No. The associations Ned makes in no way require this. Or even innately imply this.

15 hours ago, Ygrain said:

It really wouldn't make sense to write the dream including those three elements (especially the promise which we know was the very last moment of Lyanna's life), if Lyanna died elsewhere.

Why not? If the fight is closely associated with the tragedy of her death (as Ned's description of that part of the dream very strongly implies), then what matters is how they are connected. Not where they happened.

IE: The Bael Tale--not a dream. But the "real" ending has the unknown kinslaying. But the full tragedy is only revealed when the Stark brings Bael's head back and his mother kills herself. It's all one horrifying, nightmarish tragedy. All one story and one overall "event." But it's not all located in one place.

Lyanna could certainly be in the tower. But nothing says she must be. 

15 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

How many times does the text have to place Lyanna at the ToJ before it counts?

Even one time would help. Right now, we don't have anything that requires her to be in, at, or around the tower in the text.

Not yet.

[JNR]

I'm pleased to say I have solved the mystery of how it came to pass that people interpret the books in such different ways on this subject from others. 

It's because in some copies of AGOT, there was a whole sequence of text,  from Ned's dream at the ToJ, that didn't appear in other copies!  

Here it is, for the edification of those who, like me, do not have copies that include any such text:

Quote

 

Ned ran up the stairs.  There was Lyanna in bed, dying. 

This certainly sucks, he thought.

"Dearest Ned," she said, "I gave birth to a son by Rhaegar.  Here he is!"

The baby she was presenting to him from her nonliteral bloody bed somehow, despite being weak because puerperal fever had robbed her strength and not any other medical condition, screamed "Wah!" 

Ned looked into the baby's face.  Through the miracle of clairvoyance, he knew instantly that this baby would never, ever grow up to resemble Rhaegar in any possible sense.  Which mean that if Lyanna asked him to raise the baby as his bastard, that at least would not be a problem -- his treason would never be discovered and get him and Lyanna's son killed by a vengeful Robert.

Then Lyanna took a deep breath.

"You see," she said, "it all happened because Rhaegar discovered I was the Knight of the Laughing Tree and he unmasked me and seduced me.  Oh, how we loved each other.  Then months after Harrenhal, we eloped to the Isle of Faces and were married in accordance with the traditions of both North and South in front of a weirwood, by Septon Meribald. After that, we rode a thousand miles south to this tower, and knocked major-class  boots for months, until Hightower showed up and said 'Getteth thy arse to King's Landing, lickety-split, Prince Rhaegar.'  Thankfully, it never occurred to Aerys to capture me and leverage me against Robert and Ned to win the war, thus saving his life and the life of his heir, not to mention the ongoing power of his family.  And now you have to protect my baby.  Promise me, Ned."

Thunderstruck, Ned nodded, looking down at her palm... not the one he was gripping, as she gave up her hold on life, but the other one, as rose petals that had once been blue fell from it, dead and black.  Then more petals fell from the crown she still wore.

And then she was dead.

 

 

[J. Stargaryen]

4 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Jstar seriously the text doesn't put her there.Your interpretation of what you consider clues puts her there.

She's there in Ned's dream. Ned's dream is a part of the text. Therefore the text places her there. This isn't a matter of opinion, or interpretation, but a matter of fact. You can dispute the reliability of the text via Ned's dream, but to say that the text doesn't place her at the tower is simply wrong.

4 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Even one time would help.

Good thing that's exactly what we have.

Quote

 

Right now, we don't have anything that requires her to be in, at, or around the tower in the text.

 

That's one way of saying that the text places her at the ToJ.

---

As far as I know, Lyanna's place of death is not even a debate anywhere else in the fandom. The reason I bring this up is because, it doesn't even seem to have registered with the vast majority of hardcore fans that this is something we're meant to question. Why is that? If GRRM meant it to be a mystery, he did a piss poor job communicating that to his audience.

At this point in time, the revelation that Lyanna didn't die at the ToJ would be an out-of-nowhere gotcha! to the vast majority of the readers. I don't think that is how GRRM works.

I really think this is one of those cases where you guys asked, Hey, what if Lyanna didn't die at the ToJ? And then spent many moons convincing yourselves that she didn't. What I find telling, though, is that you haven't managed to convince anyone else.