Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3

[Ygrain]

On 15. 10. 2016 at 7:57 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

The point being?

If not quite .Then what?

Jstar,it is "your" opnion that it is not presented as a mystery.Some of us recognize more subtle clues...The ambiguity,stye,disconnection and misdirection,unreliable narrator testimony which tell us that the location is possibly different.Yes,there is contradiction you just don't want to achknowledge it or you dismiss it.

This makes no sense.We are discussing what we believe are clues that point to X+Y=J.Therefore,declaring something unreasonable because you think a secret that's linked to it has already been answered and the answer is your belief makes no sense.Its kind of an existential fallacy.

Well, it has been answered - the show creators were asked who Jon's mother was, and got the answer right. Hence it follows that the books provide sufficient clues to figure this out. You arrived at your own itnerpretation of events which includes who Jon's mother was, as well, yet you somehow maintain that the location where she died is still kept secret.

On 15. 10. 2016 at 7:57 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

(Facepalm):

Ygrain you don't know what Ned did with the body (if it was there to begin with) between:

"After that he remembered nothing. They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his.”

And this:

“Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. "

So somewhere in between that there should be Ned removing Lyanna from the toj and then pulling down the tower.

Somewhere in between, he also had to feed Lord Dustin's horse etc, because we know that the horse was returned to Lady Dustin eventually, but this is never mentioned. Are we supposed to suspect that the horse was somehow teleported to the North because we have no information? And what did Ned do with all the other horses? Is this also some big mystery, or merely something that didn't require a mention?

Besides, "afterward" doesn't mean "right the next second", so I really don't see what you are fretting about here. 

On 15. 10. 2016 at 7:57 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

Ygrain,really? those lements are transplantable....It is not and indicator of place....No matter where she was there will be blood,no matter where she was she still had roses spilling from her hand etc.There presence in the dream has nothing to do with actual location.They are directly tied to Lyanna and she again could have been anywhere.

Wrong. They are not tied to Lyanna, they are tied to her death. Please, explain how elements connected to someone's death become transient and designate other locations. 

On 15. 10. 2016 at 7:57 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

Ygrain,i am not doubting that there is a connection and it being and old dream has nothing to do with the elements actually being sequential in a relatively short time.

Let's look at this:

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood."

The connection could be association of these elements in Ned's dream.

The connection could be that Lyanna's death was a bloody violent affair ( A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death).

Just like the KGs and Ned's friends.

Both could have been senseless deaths , meaning Kgs didn't need to fight and Lyanna possibly didn't need to fight.Much like Elia did with her kids and got killed for it.

I would much love to see how such general ideas like bloody violent affair or senseless deaths create an association between unrelated events more than once, so that Ned could refer to it as an old dream, think dreaming it again ominous and be unnerved by walking past three KG on his way to Robert's deathbed.

On 15. 10. 2016 at 7:57 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

Subjective Ygrain.That natural reading of yours takes into consideration the clear ambiguities,misdirection,holes where there shouldn't be? The natural reading imo would be mentioning taking Lyanna's body out of the tower "before" you pull it down.

The natural reading doesn't require a second by second list of who did what, nor does it require the tower to be pulled down immediately, without removing what needed to be removed, making preparations etc first. Insisting on these is beyond ridiculous.

[wolfmaid7]

On 10/15/2016 at 8:50 AM, Kingmonkey said:

I know in these informal debates it's fun to throw in a bit of hyperbole from time to time, but do you really not see the subjectivity in this argument? The Quiet Isle, for all its vows of silence, is not exclusively populated by mutes. It's a busy place, within sight of the town of Saltpans, and close to several major population centres, and right in the middle of contested territory, which actually has guest houses. By contrast, the toj is an old abandoned watchtower up in the mountains and out of the way. 

What reason is there to think that the toj was even remotely conspicuous? Some people have proposed that it would be seen from the main road through the Prince's Pass, but let's remember that's purely supposition based on nothing in the text. 

 

Its not the same Kingmonkey....This is  hiding in plain sight.A pregnant noble girl on a place where pregnant noble girls normally go for something like this is perfect.They see that all the time.Plus Lyanna from all account was rather the tomboy,i'm sure she didn't even look like a noble lady.

I think you are underestimating how seculded it is KM.Its is exclusively populated by those who have taken a vow of silence except when its time for the to confess.Other than that only Elder brother and the proctors can speak and the proctors speak one day in 7.

How is the Quiet isle a busy town KM?It is across the river from the Salpans.Also, you have to wait until the tide goes out to cross else your in deep doo doo and need a fiathful to help you cross safely. 

But Ned and Lya had a Crannogman in their back pocket who is used to getting across that type of terrain. You seem to be throwing alot of info that has to do with Salpans than the Quiet isle.

As to your last question about toj and its location.If you want to get from the Stormlands and the Reach to Dorne its the pass you took.I mean it don't get better than that.Talk about area of conflict it don't get better than that.There were some serious battles fought nearby.

 

On 10/16/2016 at 8:25 AM, Ygrain said:

1.Well, it has been answered - the show creators were asked who Jon's mother was, and got the answer right. Hence it follows that the books provide sufficient clues to figure this out. You arrived at your own itnerpretation of events which includes who Jon's mother was, as well, yet you somehow maintain that the location where she died is still kept secret.

2.Somewhere in between, he also had to feed Lord Dustin's horse etc, because we know that the horse was returned to Lady Dustin eventually, but this is never mentioned. Are we supposed to suspect that the horse was somehow teleported to the North because we have no information? And what did Ned do with all the other horses? Is this also some big mystery, or merely something that didn't require a mention?

3.Besides, "afterward" doesn't mean "right the next second", so I really don't see what you are fretting about here. 

4Wrong. They are not tied to Lyanna, they are tied to her death. Please, explain how elements connected to someone's death become transient and designate other locations. 

5I would much love to see how such general ideas like bloody violent affair or senseless deaths create an association between unrelated events more than once, so that Ned could refer to it as an old dream, think dreaming it again ominous and be unnerved by walking past three KG on his way to Robert's deathbed.

6The natural reading doesn't require a second by second list of who did what, nor does it require the tower to be pulled down immediately, without removing what needed to be removed, making preparations etc first. Insisting on these is beyond ridiculous.

1.Thanks for the clarification on what secret you meant...I still disagree with you though.Putting aside what conclusions are drawn about who Jon's mom was.The "place" has nothing to do with Jon being Lyanna's son.For you its not ambiguous and it toj,cool. For some its ambigouous because the circumstances whereby that info was derived is.The author's caution,the disconnectedness makes it so.

2.Ygrain you are trivializing this by equating feeding and watering a horse with describing what Ned did and how he handled his sister's body after she died.What's missing is the ritual of it given the person and given the circimstances.By ritual i DO NOT mean burying her in the crypts. We get that with the KGs and Ned's friends.He pulled down the tower and used its stones to make them cairns upon the ridge.There's a ritual in that,and honor to what he did.

We get nothing about Lyanna whose body according to you was removed from the structure. There's no "he wrapped her body in his cloak", which would have taken care of any disconnectedness.No he "lit a fire for Lyanna" or no he drapped her bones etc. Not even a "put her bones in a sack."

There's no establishing she was there by indicating any transition of her being there.

3.Your are right afterward doesn't mean right this second,i wasn't proposing that it did.Simply pointing out afterwards has an expiration when dealing with a situation that requires you to hurry up. 

Pulling down after KGs and friends died to make cairns though rough and emotional is something different to after your sister dying you not remembering what transpired.

It shows two different states of mind.

4.That's what i meant Ygrain,we've been talking about her death no? Ok then.The elements are transient because they are not dependant on her place.They are associated with her death and not the place of her death so bringing that up has no effect.

5.Again it being an old dream and Ned being traumatized by is not relevant to what we are speaking about. I've had an old dream about " Young girl's playing double dutch in lace,a dead man under a Guava tree and Keisha in her water bed"

These elements appearing in the dream simultaneously doesn't change the fact that the dead guy under the Guava tree and Keisha drowning were not only years a part but they weren't even in the same place.

6.It is ridiculous that's why no one is asking for it. If Lyanna's death occured at the toj when Ned was fighting the KGs then there should be transitions of that in Ned waking recollection and not all this disjointed ambiguity.

[Kingmonkey]

9 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Its not the same Kingmonkey....This is  hiding in plain sight.A pregnant noble girl on a place where pregnant noble girls normally go for something like this is perfect.

So, it's the perfect hiding place because it's the first place anyone would look? I wouldn't call that perfect.

There's a difference between hiding in plain sight and just being in plain sight.

Quote

I think you are underestimating how seculded it is KM.Its is exclusively populated by those who have taken a vow of silence except when its time for the to confess.Other than that only Elder brother and the proctors can speak and the proctors speak one day in 7.

There are also occasional visitors -- we saw five, after all. That most of the people there have sworn a vow of silence means it's less likely that secrets would be kept than if everyone had kept a vow of silence. Obviously if you're hiding somewhere the only other people present are in on it, your chances of nobody talking are higher than if there are some people who do talk but aren't on your team. 

Quote

How is the Quiet isle a busy town KM?It is across the river from the Salpans.Also, you have to wait until the tide goes out to cross else your in deep doo doo and need a fiathful to help you cross safely. 

Nobody said the Quiet Isle is a busy town, read what you quoted: "within sight of the town of Saltpans."

Quote

But Ned and Lya had a Crannogman in their back pocket who is used to getting across that type of terrain. You seem to be throwing alot of info that has to do with Salpans than the Quiet isle.

Having to wait for the tide to go out isn't really a major challenge, it generally happens twice a day. You're vastly exaggerating the difficulty of getting there. There's a ferry, for heaven's sake! Talk about throwing out info.  

Quote

As to your last question about toj and its location.If you want to get from the Stormlands and the Reach to Dorne its the pass you took.I mean it don't get better than that.Talk about area of conflict it don't get better than that.There were some serious battles fought nearby.

Yes, it's the pass you took. So? It's a pass the size of a small country. We are not told that it can be seen from the main road through the Princes Pass. Maybe it's thirty miles away. It could perfectly well be further from that road than the Quiet Isle is from the King's Road. By contrast we are told that the Quiet Isle can be seen from the town of Saltpans. Ships leaving Saltpans would pass by the Isle. That's known traffic vs. purely speculative traffic. 

What battles were fought nearby? The closest I can think of is the battle of Ashford, a couple of hundred miles to the north. The toj is in Dorne, where there was no fighting, and no reason to think there would be fighting. The southern battles were an attempt to stop Robert gathering forces in the Stormlands, he wasn't going to turn south. On the other hand the Quiet Isle is smack in the middle of the hotly contested riverlands, and close enough to the biggest battle of the entire war that the detritus of the battle washed up there. 

These objections apply MORE to the Quiet Isle than they do to the toj.

 

[LynnS]

14 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Pulling down after KGs and friends died to make cairns though rough and emotional is something different to after your sister dying you not remembering what transpired.

Typically it is the Silent Sisters who take care of bodies; returning their bones as we see with Ned.  That seems to take some time given the process.  Otherwise a body has to be packed in brine or something else in order to transport it.   Since Lyanna wasn't buried at the ToJ, it's questionable how Ned would have handled and transported her body.    It's one of the reasons that I suspect she died somewhere else in the 'Red Mountains'.  I suppose we could assume that he took her remains to Starfall, his next destination, but again without proper treatment; that would be ghastly.

It makes some sense that Ned would bury the KG where they fell if the alternative was to travel with a decomposing body.

[Ygrain]

You're forgetting cremation. Managable for one body, hardly for eight more.

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You're forgetting cremation. Managable for one body, hardly for eight more.

Then why wouldn't he cremate the KG and return their bones as well?  Not enough firewood?

[WSmith84]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Then why wouldn't he cremate the KG and return their bones as well?  Not enough firewood?

Ygrain mentioned it in the post you quoted: cremation might be suitable for one body, but not for eight more. It's an awful lot of wood to gather for 9 bodies, particularly when you might have a hungry infant to care for.

Another point, actually. Ned may have cremated Lyanna to avoid the risk of anyone taking a look at her body and becoming suspicious.

[LynnS]

35 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Ygrain mentioned it in the post you quoted: cremation might be suitable for one body, but not for eight more. It's an awful lot of wood to gather for 9 bodies, particularly when you might have a hungry infant to care for.

Another point, actually. Ned may have cremated Lyanna to avoid the risk of anyone taking a look at her body and becoming suspicious.

I know what she said.  I'm sure if there was enough firewood for one cremation; there's enough for two or three in that vast landscape.  He could have piled more than one body on the pyre if he wanted to.  But conveniently, there isn't enough firewood.  We don't even know if there's enough firewood to cook a rabbit.   

[wolfmaid7]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

Typically it is the Silent Sisters who take care of bodies; returning their bones as we see with Ned.  That seems to take some time given the process.  Otherwise a body has to be packed in brine or something else in order to transport it.   Since Lyanna wasn't buried at the ToJ, it's questionable how Ned would have handled and transported her body.    It's one of the reasons that I suspect she died somewhere else in the 'Red Mountains'.  I suppose we could assume that he took her remains to Starfall, his next destination, but again without proper treatment; that would be ghastly.

It makes some sense that Ned would bury the KG where they fell if the alternative was to travel with a decomposing body.

Yeah this is why the Quiet isle is such a good fit.t has everything and everyone that would be needed to take care of a body,or attmept delivering a child or an injured woman etc.I do think where she died her body was taken care of there and Ned just took her bones from that location.

7 hours ago, Ygrain said:

You're forgetting cremation. Managable for one body, hardly for eight more.

What wood did he use? I know it seems a silly question,but all that seemed available to him was stone.I highly doubt there was enough furniture to bukd a pyre for Lyanna. The logistics of even cremating one in that environment seems problematic.Preparations,waiting until the flesh burns off. That would take about an hour and that would still be burning so they'd have to brave burning wood by scattering it somehow ,cooling,gathering the bones from the ashes......Nope,nope,nope.That's not going to work.Ygrian you've never been to an open cremation have you? Well i have several times.

Plus there's no indication that Ned did anything like that at toj.The only thing we know is he pulled down the tower and used its stones for cairns.This here is my problem,we get some form of ritual post death of Ned's friends and the KGs and nothing for Lyanna the man's sister and you fid nothing strange about that? We don't have to get an actual "blow by blow" as he did with the KGs and his friends but there's nothing in that narrative that says it was done or it could have been.The situation and environ wasn't suitable for all you describe.

13 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

Ygrain mentioned it in the post you quoted: cremation might be suitable for one body, but not for eight more. It's an awful lot of wood to gather for 9 bodies, particularly when you might have a hungry infant to care for.

Another point, actually. Ned may have cremated Lyanna to avoid the risk of anyone taking a look at her body and becoming suspicious.

Its a lot of wood to gather for one if you want it done right....I've seen it on the Ganges and in the Caribbean at Hindi funerals. Cremation for any amount is not an easy task and that's when its done right and by that i mean bones and all turn to ash.

This here would be a controlled cremation in an environment and with materials that will be sub par,not enough or non existant.

Its not going to work and the heat from that would be crazy if you have everything.

[wolfmaid7]

17 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

1.So, it's the perfect hiding place because it's the first place anyone would look? I wouldn't call that perfect.

2.There's a difference between hiding in plain sight and just being in plain sight.

3.There are also occasional visitors -- we saw five, after all. That most of the people there have sworn a vow of silence means it's less likely that secrets would be kept than if everyone had kept a vow of silence. Obviously if you're hiding somewhere the only other people present are in on it, your chances of nobody talking are higher than if there are some people who do talk but aren't on your team. 

4.Nobody said the Quiet Isle is a busy town, read what you quoted: "within sight of the town of Saltpans."

5.Having to wait for the tide to go out isn't really a major challenge, it generally happens twice a day. You're vastly exaggerating the difficulty of getting there. There's a ferry, for heaven's sake! Talk about throwing out info.  

6.Yes, it's the pass you took. So? It's a pass the size of a small country. We are not told that it can be seen from the main road through the Princes Pass. Maybe it's thirty miles away. It could perfectly well be further from that road than the Quiet Isle is from the King's Road. By contrast we are told that the Quiet Isle can be seen from the town of Saltpans. Ships leaving Saltpans would pass by the Isle. That's known traffic vs. purely speculative traffic. 

7What battles were fought nearby? The closest I can think of is the battle of Ashford, a couple of hundred miles to the north. The toj is in Dorne, where there was no fighting, and no reason to think there would be fighting. The southern battles were an attempt to stop Robert gathering forces in the Stormlands, he wasn't going to turn south. On the other hand the Quiet Isle is smack in the middle of the hotly contested riverlands, and close enough to the biggest battle of the entire war that the detritus of the battle washed up there. 

These objections apply MORE to the Quiet Isle than they do to the toj.

 

1.Who would be looking and what would they be looking for on the Quiet Isle? They would have to know Lyanna was missing or stashed there and where to find her.Other than that its just an island for people trying to get away for what ever reason.Also,its an island no one's going to stumble onto it.You have to make a concious choice to go there for some purpose,or almost drown and wash up there.Its also not a main port of call or a main stop off between point A and B.

2.Hiding in plain sight and being in plain sight is the same thing is kind of contingent on if you are missing and if someone is looking for you.As i said other than that in this case Lyanna is just one of many who came to the island to make a baby.

3.Well there are visitors yes but again they have a purpose being there.In the case of Brienne and Pod they were looking for Sansa.People still hardly go there  if they are lucky to make it.There are raiders who come looking for stuff to take yes,that's their purpose.Other than that Lyanna would still be unknown.She's more likely to be a random kill without anyone ever knowing who she was.Lastly,the people who are there are just people who want to get away from the world for whatever reason.They have know political dog in the race per se.Just guys trying to live a holy life,doing their penance,helping the less fortunate and those in trouble.

4.You actually did:

"The Quiet Isle, for all its vows of silence, is not exclusively populated by mutes. It's a busy place, within sight of the town of Saltpans, and close to several major population centres, and right in the middle of contested territory, which actually has guest houses."

It being within sight of other places doesn't make it busy.It isn't because of the kind of place it is.

5.Waiting for the tide and braving the mudflats which the texts infers people don't make it across without the faithful to take them. I'm not buying that in totality,just saying that if you aren't familiar with that type of terrain you are in deep crap. And again,the Quiet isle is not a main stopping off point,its not a connecting route that's taken to get from point A to point B that's why its different.

6.Kingmonkey unless Lyanna is sunbathing on the banks of the Isle waving a flag saying "I'm Lyanna Stark,people think i'm missing and i'll make a good hostage,by the way i'm preggers." Ships passing by the Isle doesn't mean anything.The Princes Pass be it seen or not,is still a path regularly traveled.It connects major areas.Its not the same thing.

7.The Quiet isle is basically Switzerland....A place for holy men and women.Figthing could have been going on all round it and it doesn't matter.Its a  self sustaining community.Eveything Lyanna would have needed she would have gotten there.

I disagree KM for the reasons i laid out your objections don't apply to the Quiet Isle at all.

[Ygrain]

3 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

What wood did he use? I know it seems a silly question,but all that seemed available to him was stone.

First, the altitude of ToJ is unknown, so it could have been just above the forest zone. Second, what prevents Ned from transporting Lyanna's body a wee bit lower?

3 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

I highly doubt there was enough furniture to bukd a pyre for Lyanna. The logistics of even cremating one in that environment seems problematic.Preparations,waiting until the flesh burns off. That would take about an hour and that would still be burning so they'd have to brave burning wood by scattering it somehow ,cooling,gathering the bones from the ashes......Nope,nope,nope.That's not going to work.Ygrian you've never been to an open cremation have you? Well i have several times.

You mean, you did that poking in the fire yourself? Well, it's kinda your problem how you organize things where you live. Somehow, I doubt that this is what Barristan meant when he was pondering how to cleanse Quentyn's bones, and it is definitely not what GRRM showed us with Drogo's pyre. - Which is basically what the prehistoric cultures did: make a big fire, let it burn for hours, wait till the next day and then sift the ashes for the remnants of bones which you put in a jar and bury in the ground.

[Ygrain]

20 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Plus there's no indication that Ned did anything like that at toj.The only thing we know is he pulled down the tower and used its stones for cairns.

So you claim that he didn't collect Dawn to return it to the Daynes, because it is not spelled out in the text? Sheesh.

20 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

This here is my problem,we get some form of ritual post death of Ned's friends and the KGs and nothing for Lyanna the man's sister and you fid nothing strange about that?

I don't - because her funeral took place at Winterfell. You know, where she has the tomb. So I don't find anything strange about the transportation of her remains not being mentioned because we know that her brother respected her wish, brought her home and honoured her by erecting her a statue, which was normally not done. Don't know about you but here we don't do any rituals before the actual burial.

20 minutes ago, wolfmaid7 said:

We don't have to get an actual "blow by blow" as he did with the KGs and his friends but there's nothing in that narrative that says it was done or it could have been.The situation and environ wasn't suitable for all you describe.

The same bullshit as when you claimed that ToJ was in an arid area even though several people pointed out that the Dornish marches are, in fact, a green belt. You're making this up solely for the sake of being contrarian.

BTW, I'm still waiting for an explanation how symbols of an even that happened at a particular time and place can be related to some random location.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Yeah this is why the Quiet isle is such a good fit.t has everything and everyone that would be needed to take care of a body,or attmept delivering a child or an injured woman etc.I do think where she died her body was taken care of there and Ned just took her bones from that location.

It's worth considering, born amidst the smoke of the beehives and the salt of the saltpans.  It's also a place where she can take ship elsewhere if she mirrors Arya's journey.  Standard 'wisdom' is that she died in the vicinity of the Red Mountains.  That's a big area.  I'm still inclined to think there is a Wylla of Wyl connection especially since the Island off that port town was used to imprison the Sand Snakes for a time.   And then there is Ned's statement that he would rather entrust a child to a pit viper than a Lannister.  That's also a convenient spot for transporting Lyanna's remains by ship back to Winterfell.

[Black Crow]

Remember that we're talking about Lyanna's bones, not her corpse or her ashes. In mediaeval times they were well aware of the difficulties of bringing the bones home. Pickling in brine or alcohol required a big cask, a lot of liquor and a difficult job transporting it. As a result the favoured method was to boil the flesh off the bones and so reduce them to a light and easily transported package. 

[LynnS]

42 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Remember that we're talking about Lyanna's bones, not her corpse or her ashes. In mediaeval times they were well aware of the difficulties of bringing the bones home. Pickling in brine or alcohol required a big cask, a lot of liquor and a difficult job transporting it. As a result the favoured method was to boil the flesh off the bones and so reduce them to a light and easily transported package. 

Oh! Ugh.  So that's how it was done.  I must have missed that.  LOL

[wolfmaid7]

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

First, the altitude of ToJ is unknown, so it could have been just above the forest zone. Second, what prevents Ned from transporting Lyanna's body a wee bit lower?

You mean, you did that poking in the fire yourself? Well, it's kinda your problem how you organize things where you live. Somehow, I doubt that this is what Barristan meant when he was pondering how to cleanse Quentyn's bones, and it is definitely not what GRRM showed us with Drogo's pyre. - Which is basically what the prehistoric cultures did: make a big fire, let it burn for hours, wait till the next day and then sift the ashes for the remnants of bones which you put in a jar and bury in the ground.

First,Ygrain what forest are you speaking about? Your hitting me later down that the toj lay in a marsh as well right?Think about that a minute.

Secondly,your missing the point.Cremation is not an easy thing to do.You all make it sound as if Ned pulling that off with a body would be easy.No its not.Ned brought Lyanna home we know that.He brought her home sooooo.I have a hard time picturing them letting the fire burn part the day and all night and then pick through for scraps which may or may not be there. Your not serious with this right?Are you saying Ned waited all night in the desert,the desert with a new born?

2 hours ago, Ygrain said:

So you claim that he didn't collect Dawn to return it to the Daynes, because it is not spelled out in the text? Sheesh.

I don't - because her funeral took place at Winterfell. You know, where she has the tomb. So I don't find anything strange about the transportation of her remains not being mentioned because we know that her brother respected her wish, brought her home and honoured her by erecting her a statue, which was normally not done. Don't know about you but here we don't do any rituals before the actual burial.

The same bullshit as when you claimed that ToJ was in an arid area even though several people pointed out that the Dornish marches are, in fact, a green belt. You're making this up solely for the sake of being contrarian.

BTW, I'm still waiting for an explanation how symbols of an even that happened at a particular time and place can be related to some random location.

Your doing it again...Ygrain no one is asking for things to be spelled out and you are using two separate things and equating their importance in this arguement.

Misrepresenting what i'm saying or actually being dim,i don't know which one of these you are being right now.I know i said outright that by ritual i didn't mean her being entomed.Nor does anyone expect Ned's itinerary with his sister's body.

I swear when you all speak or retell something i wonder if you all track the implications of what you are saying.No,instead you and others use sweeping generalizations to argue and misrepresent what is being said.I'm calling  on this kind of tact your trying to hit people with Ygrain.

I'm going to put aside the imagery that the main books evoke

"They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in “life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips. The hilt of the greatsword Dawn poked up over his right shoulder. Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee, sharpening his blade with a whetstone."

and use the WB, pg 236: (There is so much subtly wrong when you put these two images together its not funny but ill leave it alone).

Quote

"The more restless of the First men pushed onward and made homes for themselves in the foothills south of the Red Mountains,where storms moving north were wont to drop their moisture creating a furtile green belt."

So this greenbelt is south of the Red mountains

As you so graciously pointed out Ygrain the toj lay in the Dornish marshes,and unless the wetland definitions have changed from real world to book.Marshes are still defined as  wetlands frequently or continually overwhelmed with water. This also means that the characteric vegetation are soft-stemmed vegetation.Vegetation adapted to saturated soil conditions.So you saying that its a Marsh as if that's somehow suppose to spontaneously sprout roses and trees for firewood don't change that roses plus trees that could be felled or even drywood is not going to be laying around for Ned to make a pyre.

Which brings me to another point: 

"Even Garth Greenhand could not make flowers bloom in an environment so harsh and unforgiving....." 

If by some chance there were roses blooming anywhere in Dorne,it would be mentioned.That would be like finding a Unicorn among wild horses.It would be mentioned because it would be rare.The Winter rose is rare because it grows in an area it normally wouldn't grow( and that's with help from a greenhouse)

Note: I emplore everyone to read the wiki Dornish Marshes and then read the WB section on Dorne play close attention to environment in each cardinal points and the descriptions of Dorne and where these fertile areas pop up and what is needed for them to be so.

As to your latter point i'm not sure i get what you are asking,but from what i gleaned i already answered it.We have Ned thinking of Lyanna,bood and/or roses at other times in other locations.Which again indicates that the concepts are transmutable depending on what triggers Ned.

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

Remember that we're talking about Lyanna's bones, not her corpse or her ashes. In mediaeval times they were well aware of the difficulties of bringing the bones home. Pickling in brine or alcohol required a big cask, a lot of liquor and a difficult job transporting it. As a result the favoured method was to boil the flesh off the bones and so reduce them to a light and easily transported package. 

Hence,the point that if proponents want to assert that Lyanna's body was prepared for easier transport from the toj.....It can't have been the toj.It lacks what is needed for that task to be done,with Howland and a newborn baby in tow.If that is what we are expected to believe.

She was somewhere else suited to prepare her body or she was close to winter fell which would have allowed Ned to just bring her body home.

We have from Ned that Lyanna wanted to come home to lay beside Rickard and Brandon.Yet Lady B said Ned made sure to bring Lyanna's bones home.I wonder if that was not a literal statement? It doesn't matter either way ust a curiosity.

[Kingmonkey]

6 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

1.Who would be looking and what would they be looking for on the Quiet Isle? They would have to know Lyanna was missing or stashed there and where to find her.Other than that its just an island for people trying to get away for what ever reason.Also,its an island no one's going to stumble onto it.You have to make a concious choice to go there for some purpose,or almost drown and wash up there.Its also not a main port of call or a main stop off between point A and B.

 You're arguing that the Quiet Isle is a place where people try to get away for whatever reason, and it's close to where she disappeared from. So perhaps the answer to your first question is they'd be looking for Lyanna there?

It's an island, yes you need to make a conscious decision to go there. However how does that NOT apply to an abandoned watchtower?

It's not a main port of call, but it's more of a port of call than some abandoned watchtower. 

Again, these arguments apply more strongly to the toj than the QI.

6 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

2.Hiding in plain sight and being in plain sight is the same thing is kind of contingent on if you are missing and if someone is looking for you.As i said other than that in this case Lyanna is just one of many who came to the island to make a baby.

Where are you going to look for someone first? One of the nearest settlements from where the person went missing, and where there are, in your words, "many who come to the island -- or some random abandoned watchtower a thousand miles away?

6 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

3.Well there are visitors yes but again they have a purpose being there.In the case of Brienne and Pod they were looking for Sansa.People still hardly go there  if they are lucky to make it.There are raiders who come looking for stuff to take yes,that's their purpose.Other than that Lyanna would still be unknown.She's more likely to be a random kill without anyone ever knowing who she was.Lastly,the people who are there are just people who want to get away from the world for whatever reason.They have know political dog in the race per se.Just guys trying to live a holy life,doing their penance,helping the less fortunate and those in trouble.

They may have no political dog in the race, but someone always tells.

The fact that visitors have a purpose to visit is irrelevant, they are still visitors. How many people drop in on an abandoned watchtower in the mountains, whether they have a purpose to or not? It's a no-brainer that people visit the Quiet Isle more often than they visit the toj.

6 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

4.You actually did:

"The Quiet Isle, for all its vows of silence, is not exclusively populated by mutes. It's a busy place, within sight of the town of Saltpans, and close to several major population centres, and right in the middle of contested territory, which actually has guest houses."

I actually did not. You underlined "a busy place". Not "a busy town". I didn't say it was a busy town. 

6 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

It being within sight of other places doesn't make it busy.It isn't because of the kind of place it is.

It's busy because it's a monastery. They are busy places. There are penitents and novices wandering around, gardens to tend, farms to be farmed, sheep to be grazed, a mill to be run. It is visited by people from the area seeking medical attention. There would certainly be trading. There's a ferry to the town of Saltpans just a few miles distant.

6 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

5.Waiting for the tide and braving the mudflats which the texts infers people don't make it across without the faithful to take them. I'm not buying that in totality,just saying that if you aren't familiar with that type of terrain you are in deep crap. 

Only if you chose to walk across, rather than taking the ferry. You could just take the ferry. 

Brienne's party take the "path of faith", walking across the flats at low tide, because it's late in the day and they want to get there that night.  The following morning, they took the ferry. 

There is no difficulty getting to the Quiet Isle unless you insist on going there at low tide. 

 

6 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

6.Kingmonkey unless Lyanna is sunbathing on the banks of the Isle waving a flag saying "I'm Lyanna Stark,people think i'm missing and i'll make a good hostage,by the way i'm preggers." Ships passing by the Isle doesn't mean anything.The Princes Pass be it seen or not,is still a path regularly traveled.It connects major areas.Its not the same thing.

So at the toj, she'd have been sunbathing outside waving a flag saying "I'm Lyanna Stark"?

The Bay of Crabs is also a route regularly travelled that also connects major areas, so why is it not the same thing? Why do ships passing by the isle mean nothing, but people passing through the same few thousand square miles mean so much?

It appears you have an image in your head of the toj up close to a busy main road running through a narrow pass. There is nothing to support that image in the text. The toj could be 50 miles away from the main road. It could be on the other side of a mountain. We don't have that info. We DO have the info that the Quiet Isle is within sight of an actual town, and there's a ferry that runs between the two. This applies more to the Quiet Isle than the ToJ.

Frankly, the idea that it's impossible for someone to hide away within thousands of square miles of mountainous terrain is absurd. 

6 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

7.The Quiet isle is basically Switzerland....A place for holy men and women.Figthing could have been going on all round it and it doesn't matter.Its a  self sustaining community.Eveything Lyanna would have needed she would have gotten there.

It's a place known for healing sick and injured people. Fighting going on all round it and nobody would go there? We know for a fact that at least one combatant wound up there. 

The toj doesn't need to be a such an eye of calm in the storm, because it's a thousand miles away from the storm, hidden away in the mountains. If the Quiet Isle is Switzerland, then the toj is hidden away in a mountain pass on the Turkish/Georgian border. If someone goes missing from just outside Strasbourg, where are you going to look first?

 

[Kingmonkey]

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Cremation is not an easy thing to do.You all make it sound as if Ned pulling that off with a body would be easy.No its not.Ned brought Lyanna home we know that.He brought her home sooooo.I have a hard time picturing them letting the fire burn part the day and all night and then pick through for scraps which may or may not be there.

For once, I'm in complete agreement with you. Using fire for excarnation is NOT an easy task. You need a fierce fire, and bones burn too unless you're extremely careful (and preferably have lots of water to hand). The fact that Ned brought Lyanna's bones back argues against fire. 

Building pyres is no small task. It takes a LOT of wood. Even if there were plenty of trees nearby, even a single pyre would be a major undertaking. Of course such practicalities don't necessarily stop GRRM. He might not have bothered to stop and research those details, that's not really his way. So we can't exclude the idea that he had in his mind a pyre for Lyanna, but with nothing to point to it I think we should assume that didn't happen. 

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

As you so graciously pointed out Ygrain the toj lay in the Dornish marshes,and unless the wetland definitions have changed from real world to book.

That's the Dornish MARCHES not Dornish MARSHES. A march, or mark, is a border territory, nothing to do with wetlands. The specific inspiration here is almost certainly the Welsh Marches, which also had "marcher lords". 

There's clearly woodland in the Dornish Marches. It is indeed fertile territory, and it's noted for its bowmen, which isn't something likely in an area denuded of woodland. However we don't know enough about the position of the ToJ to know how near the closest trees were. Could be there were trees immediately in the area (trees DO grow in mountains, too). Alternatively there might not have been any for miles.

 

2 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Hence,the point that if proponents want to assert that Lyanna's body was prepared for easier transport from the toj.....It can't have been the toj.It lacks what is needed for that task to be done,with Howland and a newborn baby in tow.If that is what we are expected to believe.

Agreed. However there's no reason that she couldn't have been slung over a horse and taken somewhere else for her body to be prepared for transport on the long journey back to Winterfell. They could have taken her body to Nightsong, for example. Or as they had spare horses and were in the open air, Starfall isn't too crazy a notion either. 

[maudisdottir]

The OP claims not to deal in "what ifs", yet the Quiet Isle theory is 100% "what if". There is NOTHING in the text to even remotely hint of any connection between Lyanna and the QI.  I suppose you will say I don't know how to evaluate/GRRM is intentionally misdirecting us/I don't have your superior understanding.  Whatever.  She wasn't on the Quiet Isle.

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

The OP claims not to deal in "what ifs", yet the Quiet Isle theory is 100% "what if". There is NOTHING in the text to even remotely hint of any connection between Lyanna and the QI.  I suppose you will say I don't know how to evaluate/GRRM is intentionally misdirecting us/I don't have your superior understanding.  Whatever.  She wasn't on the Quiet Isle.

My viewpoint on 'what if's' is that everything about RLJ and many other theories are 'what if' scenarios.  Nothing about RLJ is a fact.... yet.  They are probabilities at best; based on assumptions and the reader's analysis and subjective viewpoint put together.  There is a certain amount of speculation required to fill in the knowledge gaps.  I don't subscribe to the notion that there are no remaining mysteries or original ideas that can't be wrangled or mangled as the case may be.  It wouldn't be very interesting otherwise.