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Heresy Project X+Y=J: Wrap up thread 3


wolfmaid7

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But the assumptions, analysis and viewpoints on R+L=J are based on what is in the text.  The Tower of Joy is named in the books, so obviously people will factor that into their theories and analysis.  It's one thing to say "that's a red herring, it's possible she was somewhere else".  Fine, speculate away.  The Quiet Isle is a possibility.  But it's not connected to Lyanna in the text the way the Tower of Joy is.  There is nothing there.

I don't have a problem with speculation; it's the attitude of the OP when anyone disagrees because apparently we can't read between the lines.  Well, I obviously can't read within the lines either.  At least I know the difference between Marches and a marsh.

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14 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

The OP claims not to deal in "what ifs", yet the Quiet Isle theory is 100% "what if". There is NOTHING in the text to even remotely hint of any connection between Lyanna and the QI.  I suppose you will say I don't know how to evaluate/GRRM is intentionally misdirecting us/I don't have your superior understanding.  Whatever.  She wasn't on the Quiet Isle.

Yeah you are right,i don't deal in "what ifs" and this aint one of them.This is simply coming at the issue from another path.I've also said that at the end of the day this is about what some believe are clues and what others believe are clues.All of us believe that we have some understanding of how GRRM writes and how he sets up a mystery.For me this starts with a blank slate without any preconcieved notion about the issue.For me looking at this objectively also entails given what we think Lyanna's condition and circumstances are,given Ned's recollection what does that tell us about the place and it serving a particular set of needs with respect to Lyanna.Does GRRM atleast answer that?

Let me ask you a few more questions based on the text.

1. You believe Lanna was pregnant?

2. You believe that her pregancy was meant to be a secret?

3.Do you believe there was aid for her being in a pregnant state?

4. You believe Ned bringing her body home in a certain state requires some preparation?

All of these questions and more help me answer where she was likely to be and is a possible connection to her and the QI.

As to the bolded, what i think about your evaluation skills or lack thereof doesn't matter.You have your belief and why,me to.George will have the final say.

 

 

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2 hours ago, maudisdottir said:

But the assumptions, analysis and viewpoints on R+L=J are based on what is in the text.  The Tower of Joy is named in the books, so obviously people will factor that into their theories and analysis.  It's one thing to say "that's a red herring, it's possible she was somewhere else".  Fine, speculate away.  The Quiet Isle is a possibility.  But it's not connected to Lyanna in the text the way the Tower of Joy is.  There is nothing there.

I don't have a problem with speculation; it's the attitude of the OP when anyone disagrees because apparently we can't read between the lines.  Well, I obviously can't read within the lines either.  At least I know the difference between Marches and a marsh.

There goes that sweeping generalization again....The toj is named in the books,what does that even mean ?sooooooooo what its named in the books????

How is the toj connected to Lyanna in such a way that makes it a better? Please do tell.

And please tell me what the frack  i've said that's so bad? People who believe RLJ have said this and worse hundreads of time and continue to do so, somehow from you and them its ok? So "me" having the nerve to say what i believe and confidently do so is a problem? Why?

So what if you know the difference between a Marche( i remembered by the way thanks to Kingmonkey).There's loads of things i don't know,but that doesn't hinder my ability to think critically about what is being proposed.

Lyanna at the toj  given her supposed state and given the condition her body arrived at WF doesn't work.

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On 10/18/2016 at 5:58 PM, Kingmonkey said:

You're arguing that the Quiet Isle is a place where people try to get away for whatever reason, and it's close to where she disappeared from. So perhaps the answer to your first question is they'd be looking for Lyanna there?

It's an island, yes you need to make a conscious decision to go there. However how does that NOT apply to an abandoned watchtower?

It's not a main port of call, but it's more of a port of call than some abandoned watchtower. 

Again, these arguments apply more strongly to the toj than the QI.

1.Who would be looking for her? No one does so again that tells me she wasn't missing because her family knew where she was,or she was missing and no one knew that she was because no one was looking for her.

Exactly,going to an abandon watchtower is more conspicous no matter Lyanna's state.It still on a major path that anyone heading into Dorne from the Reach or the Stormlands would notice people there.

The fact that an abandoned "watchtower" should be used as a hide out is the issue.

We will have to disgree KM.

On 10/18/2016 at 5:58 PM, Kingmonkey said:

Where are you going to look for someone first? One of the nearest settlements from where the person went missing, and where there are, in your words, "many who come to the island -- or some random abandoned watchtower a thousand miles away?

Here's the thing though like i pointed out this part of this arguement for either side isn't a good one because no one was looking for Lyanna.Whatever the reasons i believe or your believe that was no one was looking for her.And because of this fact finding her is a matter of someone stumbling on her and realizing she's not suppose to be there or she's out of place.Thus,she is not out of place at the QI,if someone visiys the isle and decides to get curious for whatever reason and check the women's quaters unless you know her she's just another girl their one the Isle.

All secrecy or privacy evaporates the moment we put her at the toj.

On 10/18/2016 at 5:58 PM, Kingmonkey said:

They may have no political dog in the race, but someone always tells.

The fact that visitors have a purpose to visit is irrelevant, they are still visitors. How many people drop in on an abandoned watchtower in the mountains, whether they have a purpose to or not? It's a no-brainer that people visit the Quiet Isle more often than they visit the toj.

 But they don't unless confessing to the Septon on the Isle.We are given this emphatically about the brothers there and why.It is relevant because if as i say someone happens to wander to the women's quaters seeing a girl there isn't an oddity as long as they don't know who.

This is war time Kingmonkey,you don't think abandoned watchtowers would be made use of in wartime?

On 10/18/2016 at 5:58 PM, Kingmonkey said:

So at the toj, she'd have been sunbathing outside waving a flag saying "I'm Lyanna Stark"?

The Bay of Crabs is also a route regularly travelled that also connects major areas, so why is it not the same thing? Why do ships passing by the isle mean nothing, but people passing through the same few thousand square miles mean so much?

It appears you have an image in your head of the toj up close to a busy main road running through a narrow pass. There is nothing to support that image in the text. The toj could be 50 miles away from the main road. It could be on the other side of a mountain. We don't have that info. We DO have the info that the Quiet Isle is within sight of an actual town, and there's a ferry that runs between the two. This applies more to the Quiet Isle than the ToJ.

Frankly, the idea that it's impossible for someone to hide away within thousands of square miles of mountainous terrain is absurd. 

No its not the same thing.Taking ferry to and island of holy men is quite different to riding a horse through the mountains and just being oblivious to watchtowers sparcely placed along the route and KM it had to be at a vantage point whereby people in the tower could see if anyone approaches.It has to be near enough for the look out to see activity.

No i don't actually have that image of the toj.I take it for what it was and its use...It was an abandoned watchtower so its location must be practical for the use.

On 10/18/2016 at 5:58 PM, Kingmonkey said:

It's a place known for healing sick and injured people. Fighting going on all round it and nobody would go there? We know for a fact that at least one combatant wound up there. 

The toj doesn't need to be a such an eye of calm in the storm, because it's a thousand miles away from the storm, hidden away in the mountains. If the Quiet Isle is Switzerland, then the toj is hidden away in a mountain pass on the Turkish/Georgian border. If someone goes missing from just outside Strasbourg, where are you going to look first?

And yet all of this hedges on Lyanna being.It doesn't matter how many people would have ended up there.The more you try to push the toj futher and further into the mountains the more and more impractical it becomes especially seeing as Lyanna was preggers.

On 10/18/2016 at 6:29 PM, Kingmonkey said:

For once, I'm in complete agreement with you. Using fire for excarnation is NOT an easy task. You need a fierce fire, and bones burn too unless you're extremely careful (and preferably have lots of water to hand). The fact that Ned brought Lyanna's bones back argues against fire. 

Building pyres is no small task. It takes a LOT of wood. Even if there were plenty of trees nearby, even a single pyre would be a major undertaking. Of course such practicalities don't necessarily stop GRRM. He might not have bothered to stop and research those details, that's not really his way. So we can't exclude the idea that he had in his mind a pyre for Lyanna, but with nothing to point to it I think we should assume that didn't happen. 

 Not only does it argue against fire,argues against boiling,argues against beetles.We need a place suited for this kind of preparation so i repeat. She was either close to WF which made it easy to bring her body home,or she died in a place that could see to her body for transport.

On 10/18/2016 at 6:29 PM, Kingmonkey said:

That's the Dornish MARCHES not Dornish MARSHES. A march, or mark, is a border territory, nothing to do with wetlands. The specific inspiration here is almost certainly the Welsh Marches, which also had "marcher lords". 

There's clearly woodland in the Dornish Marches. It is indeed fertile territory, and it's noted for its bowmen, which isn't something likely in an area denuded of woodland. However we don't know enough about the position of the ToJ to know how near the closest trees were. Could be there were trees immediately in the area (trees DO grow in mountains, too). Alternatively there might not have been any for miles.

Ohhhhhhhh  marche,yes i know,i know and forgot that should have registered duh  Marcher lords is what the books called the lords of the Stormland.Its coming back nowwww my apologies.This makes this a bit easier.But the Dornish marches are leagues and leagues of grassland,plains and moors and that piece of the Red Mountains in the east of it seemed to be a pile of nothing.If that environment produced roses of any kind we would know,trees enough to build a pyre we would know.

 

On 10/18/2016 at 6:29 PM, Kingmonkey said:

Agreed. However there's no reason that she couldn't have been slung over a horse and taken somewhere else for her body to be prepared for transport on the long journey back to Winterfell. They could have taken her body to Nightsong, for example. Or as they had spare horses and were in the open air, Starfall isn't too crazy a notion either. 

Which one is it? If they were wayyyyy up in the mountains because it was secluded( why they'd make a pregnant woman take that trip and not expect complications:dunno:) making that trip all the way down to one of those houses .Open air or not in that sun not only do i give that baby a few hours to live in that sun,but that body is going to start getting ripe.

Plus,Ned Stark using one of these places to prepare Lyanna's body.That would get some tounges wagging for sure.

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So, to put the crap of OMFG impossible cremation to rest: 

1) In GRRMth, imperfect cremations are pretty common:

Ser Jorah Mormont found her amidst the ashes, surrounded by blackened logs and bits of glowing ember and the burnt bones of man and woman and stallion. (AGOT)

He needed the heads for the wall, but he had burned the headless bodies that very day, in all their finery. Afterward he had knelt amongst the bones and ashes to retrieve a slag of melted silver and cracked jet (ACOK)

When you are dead, who will be bringing your ashes and bones back to your lady wife and telling her that she has lost a husband and four sons?  (ASOS)

Nothing remained beyond the King’s Gate but mud and ashes and bits of burned bone (ASOS)

All that remains of Saltpans is the castle, and old Ser Quincy so frightened he would not open his gates, but shouted down at us from his battlements. The rest is bones and ashes. (AFFC)

No one had seen the dragon but him. His proof was burned bones, but burned bones proved nothing.
He might have killed the little girl himself, and burned her afterward (ADWD)


Traders reported finding only nightmarish devastation where Hardhome had stood, a landscape of charred trees and burned bones (ADWD)

“You’ve never been thrown off a thousand feet above the ground,” Gerris pointed out. “And horses seldom turn their riders into charred bones and ashes.” (ADWD)

2) Arranging (imperfect) creation is not as difficult as you present it, prehistoric cultures managed just fine, in no small quantities (search "urnfield", if the word itself doesn't give you an idea)

3) Returning someone home as ashes is a valid option - Barristan avoids it in Quentyn's case because of the manner of his death.

“I’ll see that he’s returned to Dorne.” But how? As ashes? That would require more fire, and Ser Barristan could not stomach that.

4) Full assembled skeletons, such as Ned's, seem rather an exception than the rule, as the bones returned to the families are often in a bag

5) "Bones" does not mean "complete skeleton"

6) We actually don't know in what form Ned brought Lyanna's remains home, his PoVs never mention this. 

7) Lady Dustin was hardly invited to inspect the content of whatever Ned brought Lyanna's remains home in, hence she doesn't really know. "Bones" is what everyone sends to the families, so "bones" is pretty much a natural assumption on her part. 

 

That said, I am not arguing that Ned definitely cremated Lyanna, only that cremation is a viable option and that nothing in the books (so far) contradicts it.

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Ygrain said:

So, to put the crap of OMFG impossible cremation to rest: 

1) In GRRMth, imperfect cremations are pretty common:

Ser Jorah Mormont found her amidst the ashes, surrounded by blackened logs and bits of glowing ember and the burnt bones of man and woman and stallion. (AGOT)

He needed the heads for the wall, but he had burned the headless bodies that very day, in all their finery. Afterward he had knelt amongst the bones and ashes to retrieve a slag of melted silver and cracked jet (ACOK)

When you are dead, who will be bringing your ashes and bones back to your lady wife and telling her that she has lost a husband and four sons?  (ASOS)

Nothing remained beyond the King’s Gate but mud and ashes and bits of burned bone (ASOS)

All that remains of Saltpans is the castle, and old Ser Quincy so frightened he would not open his gates, but shouted down at us from his battlements. The rest is bones and ashes. (AFFC)

No one had seen the dragon but him. His proof was burned bones, but burned bones proved nothing.
He might have killed the little girl himself, and burned her afterward (ADWD)


Traders reported finding only nightmarish devastation where Hardhome had stood, a landscape of charred trees and burned bones (ADWD)

“You’ve never been thrown off a thousand feet above the ground,” Gerris pointed out. “And horses seldom turn their riders into charred bones and ashes.” (ADWD)

2) Arranging (imperfect) creation is not as difficult as you present it, prehistoric cultures managed just fine, in no small quantities (search "urnfield", if the word itself doesn't give you an idea)

3) Returning someone home as ashes is a valid option - Barristan avoids it in Quentyn's case because of the manner of his death.

“I’ll see that he’s returned to Dorne.” But how? As ashes? That would require more fire, and Ser Barristan could not stomach that.

4) Full assembled skeletons, such as Ned's, seem rather an exception than the rule, as the bones returned to the families are often in a bag

5) "Bones" does not mean "complete skeleton"

6) We actually don't know in what form Ned brought Lyanna's remains home, his PoVs never mention this. 

7) Lady Dustin was hardly invited to inspect the content of whatever Ned brought Lyanna's remains home in, hence she doesn't really know. "Bones" is what everyone sends to the families, so "bones" is pretty much a natural assumption on her part. 

 

That said, I am not arguing that Ned definitely cremated Lyanna, only that cremation is a viable option and that nothing in the books (so far) contradicts it.

 

 

 

1.Ygrain what are you trying to prove with whatever you wrote there? If you are trying to prove that cremations or fires sometime have bits of bones left over.We know that already.Some of the text yoy seem to put just because they have the words "bones" and "ashes" in them completely ignoring that some of these were fires that people may have tried to put out.

In the case of Quentyn he was in a place where they could have prepared his body any which way they chose because they were in a freaking palace.

Dany had the materials needed to build a holy crap funeral Pyre for Drogo,his horse and MMD plus she had how many people with her to help!!!! You are comparing all that to what you want us to believe:

Ned,with what was available to him could not have made a Pyre to burn Lyanna's body, stay for hours and depending what time it was into the night until the flames died down in the desert with a baby and Howland so he could collect a couple of bones to take home to WF.

No freaking way!

2.Situational Ygrain,what does "urnfield culture" have to do with Ned supposedly in the desert with a baby,a body and a bud? Nothing.These cultures had what they needed for their funeral because they had the resources to do so.

Ned and Howland were not in a place that would yield wood for a Pyre,the sitiation was impractical and if they had a newborn baby in tow time was of the essence.

3.“I was with her when she died,” Ned reminded the king. “She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father."

You are right about Barbery's perspective i did bring that up.However,given the bolded i'm inclined to see it as Ned bringing home more than a femur or bits and pieces of skull in a sack..

Ok i don't think i need to go further to answer anymore.Ygrain, this isn't viable.Ned,a newborn baby and Howland.In a place that has little or no resources for such an endeavor.Starting a pyre waitng for it to burn out,get some scraps of bone to take home to WF.

Nahhhhhhh.

 

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On 20/10/2016 at 4:42 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

1.Who would be looking for her? No one does so again that tells me she wasn't missing because her family knew where she was,or she was missing and no one knew that she was because no one was looking for her.

Waitaminnut. If nobody is looking for her, why do you think the toj would be a terrible hiding place? That makes no sense. What's good for the goose, etc.

However, this "nobody's looking for her therefore she wasn't missing" notion doesn't hold up to scrutiny. How many people do you think it would take to scour Westeros for a missing girl? It's completely impractical. The only practical way to look for her is to find out where she is, and then go there. Which is on the face of it just what Ned appears to have done.

On 20/10/2016 at 4:42 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

Exactly,going to an abandon watchtower is more conspicous no matter Lyanna's state.It still on a major path that anyone heading into Dorne from the Reach or the Stormlands would notice people there.

You're doing it again. The contention that it is "on a major path" is entirely invented. There is nothing in the text, in the semi canon, in anything, that indicates this. 

It's in the red mountains of Dorne, in the region of the princes pass according to the maps. That's all we have. 

That is not a narrow roadway. It's an area the size of a small country.

 

On 20/10/2016 at 4:42 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

All secrecy or privacy evaporates the moment we put her at the toj.

Based on nothing. Again, the idea that there is no such thing as hiding out in a vast expanse of mountains does not make any sense.

She might be conspicuous to someone visiting the tower, but there's no reason to believe anyone ever goes there. Contrary to the Quiet Isle, which we know is visited.

On 20/10/2016 at 4:42 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

This is war time Kingmonkey,you don't think abandoned watchtowers would be made use of in wartime?

Some of them would, if they were in a useful location, and no more convenient watchtower were present. There might be a hundred watchtowers of varying ages scattered throughout the Princes Pass. The only need would be for one or two at the north end of the valley that would be able to watch in case of an oncoming army. It would be a waste of manpower to man watchtowers that were guarding routes impractical for armies, or coming from the wrong direction. If the toj was, for example, looking down on the Vulture's Roost side of a mountains, it would have been of no interest. If there were other watchtowers that watched the same bit of road a little further up, perhaps in better condition, again, the toj would be unlikely to be manned.

On 20/10/2016 at 4:42 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

No its not the same thing.Taking ferry to and island of holy men is quite different to riding a horse through the mountains and just being oblivious to watchtowers sparcely placed along the route and KM it had to be at a vantage point whereby people in the tower could see if anyone approaches.It has to be near enough for the look out to see activity.

Again, the Prince's Pass is the size of a small country. 

Do yourself a favour and go use google maps on say Corsica, to give you an idea of what scale we're talking about. The idea that someone riding a horse across Corsica would necessarily see someone hiding in one of the many towers that dot the island is obviously nonsense. This is the kind of area we're discussing.

On 20/10/2016 at 4:42 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

And yet all of this hedges on Lyanna being.It doesn't matter how many people would have ended up there.The more you try to push the toj futher and further into the mountains the more and more impractical it becomes especially seeing as Lyanna was preggers.

I'm not pushing the toj further and further into the mountains. I'm objecting to you placing it by the main road, when there is zero information indicating that. As for the practicality, again you're basing this on zero information. Why shouldn't there be a village a few miles away, for example? Again, look at Corsica. Pick one of the main roads. Observe how many places there are 10-20km away from that main road where there are small settlements, even in the mountains.

Even if someone knew they were somewhere in the Prince's Pass, there's no reason to assume they could be found without a massive search effort.

On 20/10/2016 at 4:42 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

 Not only does it argue against fire,argues against boiling,argues against beetles.We need a place suited for this kind of preparation so i repeat. She was either close to WF which made it easy to bring her body home,or she died in a place that could see to her body for transport.

Or somewhere reasonably close to such a place -- that's a pretty major omission. Bodies can be moved short distances before preparations. 

On 20/10/2016 at 4:42 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

But the Dornish marches are leagues and leagues of grassland,plains and moors and that piece of the Red Mountains in the east of it seemed to be a pile of nothing.If that environment produced roses of any kind we would know,trees enough to build a pyre we would know.

I don't see why we'd know, it's not like we have any extensive lists of the flora and fauna of the Dornish Marches to notice such omissions from.

However as for roses -- so what? We're not exactly talking about heavy luggage here. Roses could be brought from outside. 

We have nothing to indicate that Winter Roses grow in the Riverlands, yet we know there was a crown of winter roses at Harrenhal. Things can be moved from one place to another.

As for wood -- as I pointed out, the marchers are noted for their bowmen, so it's a fair bet they have a decent supply of wood. How close that is to the toj, of course we have no idea.

On 20/10/2016 at 4:42 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

Which one is it? If they were wayyyyy up in the mountains because it was secluded( why they'd make a pregnant woman take that trip and not expect complications:dunno:) making that trip all the way down to one of those houses .Open air or not in that sun not only do i give that baby a few hours to live in that sun,but that body is going to start getting ripe.

What makes you think she was pregnant when they went there?

I wonder how you think the natives of the area have babies if you insist they'd die within a few hours out of doors. Maybe they give them some shade?

Carrying a baby and a body through the mountain on a day's journey hardly seems like an impossible task.

On 20/10/2016 at 4:42 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

Plus,Ned Stark using one of these places to prepare Lyanna's body.That would get some tounges wagging for sure.

So? It's not a secret that she died. 

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On 10/13/2016 at 11:58 PM, Sly Wren said:

But she's not in the part of the dream we see before Ned wakes.

 

First of all, apologies for the delayed reply. I was about halfway through responding when I lost my original reply a few days ago. Then I got caught up in a couple of other discussions, and haven't had much free time since. Anyway...

Which makes perfect sense, since he was awoken before (or after) he went inside the tower.

The idea that this monumental fight took place outside of an empty tower seems really odd to me, narratively speaking. I get that GRRM likes to play with expectations and whatnot, but he's still a writer. From a storytelling perspective, it just seems obvious to me that the combatants were fighting over what was in the tower.

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Ned hears her screaming--at the same moment he sees a storm of rose petals blowing across a blood streaked sky. Given that it's in that moment that Ned hears the scream, the idea that the scream itself is a conflation/exaggeration/symbolic image (like the wraiths and rose-storm) has to be on the table. 

3

You can call it a table, but where are its legs? :P

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I strongly doubt Ned saw a "storm of petals" in real life. Sounds like My Little Pony meets a b-grade horror movie. And Ned himself notes that his friends were not actually wraiths when they rode with him. And Martin has said to be careful re: literality in the dream--which leaves a LOT of room.

And one of the things it leaves room for: Ned conflates Lyanna's scream with the beginning of the fight at the tower. Thus, she may not have been there at all. 

 

Okay, then why focus in on this very narrow, textually unsupported interpretation? You're putting an awful lot of faith in an interpretation -- a guess, in truth -- that is only supported by speculation. This, despite many months of searching for something more.

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???

From memory, you had said something like, There's nothing that requires Lyanna to have been at the ToJ. Which I read as you meaning that the text places her there, but that the text might be misleading.

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Then when did he leave the gap? Readers fill it in and assume she's there--but the text never says it. Martin left that gap.

What gap? Ned has a dream about the tower that features Lyanna. He hears her scream while outside of the tower.

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Not a "gotcha!" Just an "I warned you that our dreams aren't always literal. And I did tell you to keep reading."

Again, it's a gotcha if he reveals that Lyanna wasn't in the tower without providing any evidence beforehand that that was the case. I'm somewhat surprised that this is a debatable point. I mean, author says X, never contradicts X, then reveals X is not true. How is that not a gotcha?

My guess is that your instinct will be to reply that, he doesn't really say X. Except that he does. Because she's there in the dream, and the dream is in the text. So the question becomes, does that mean she was actually there? If she wasn't, as you and some others contend, there should be some evidence (re: not speculation) suggesting that she wasn't.

I'm not going to claim to be an authority on how GRRM writes, but I don't think it's controversial to state that he seems like he leaves clues about the mysteries in his books.

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And I really felt like he'd "gotcha'd" us with Lysa's Moon Door Confessional. Martin's not above making one solution/issue more obvious than another, but then going with the far less obvious option.

I believe we've been over this before. There were clues in the text about LF & Lysa. You not seeing the clues ≠ no clues. So you're not talking about the same scenario I am.

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Well, can't speak for anyone else, but in my case, the issue started with--"wait--he pulled down a tower and then lugged a corpse. . . etc."--then I looked at the text again. And noticed the large gap in data re: Lyanna's locale. Martin hasn't filled that gap yet. And he's burned me before when I filled gaps without noticing how gappy they actually were. Might be more paranoia than anything else. But, one way or another--that gap is there.

Yes, there is a big gap in the data re: Lyanna's whereabouts before and during the rebellion. However, the one data point we have places her at the ToJ at the end of the war.

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As for convincing others. . . not sure how to crowd source that one. But given that Martin has disproven popular assumptions already (IE: Murder of Jon Arryn), the issues around Jon's origins seem open to being not what most readers got on the first read.

I've got a suggestion on how you could convince others. Support your case with textual evidence instead of speculation.

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Or they might be just that--absolutely. But the issue is not yet closed.

One way or another, I do think Jon was Born in Dorne (that sounds like a really stupid T-Shirt, sorry.). "The Dornishman's Wife" is first heard in text by Jon and recurs multiple times in his POV's and thoughts. Jon has moments where he thinks about the odd connections between the North and the Red Mountains of Dorne. 

And there's the Daynes' recurring presence in the story.

So Jon might have been born in the tower. But anywhere in the Red Mountains would also do. And Starfall would make a LOT of symbolic and practical sense.

For the record, I find the argument that Arthur is Jon's father to be much more compelling than the argument that Lyanna was not at the ToJ. Because that theory doesn't effectively end with the question: Hey, what if Rhaegar isn't the father? At least not in my opinion, but I'm probably a bigger fan of the idea than most RLJers. ;)

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9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

1) In GRRMth, imperfect cremations are pretty common:

These examples aren't two people alone in the mountains though. Most of them are the results of burning in warfare. In one case it's a dragon for heaven's sake. If Ned and Howland had a dragon with them, then yeah of course they could cremate the bodies. :P 

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

2) Arranging (imperfect) creation is not as difficult as you present it, prehistoric cultures managed just fine, in no small quantities (search "urnfield", if the word itself doesn't give you an idea)

Again, not two people alone in the mountains. You hardly need to look so far in the past either. Cremation is very common. It's traditional practice in Hindu funerals still today, for example. Where they typically use about half a tonne of wood.

9 hours ago, Ygrain said:

7) Lady Dustin was hardly invited to inspect the content of whatever Ned brought Lyanna's remains home in, hence she doesn't really know. "Bones" is what everyone sends to the families, so "bones" is pretty much a natural assumption on her part. 

That said, I am not arguing that Ned definitely cremated Lyanna, only that cremation is a viable option and that nothing in the books (so far) contradicts it.

Well we're on the same side of the RLJ debate, but I keep picking on the anti-RLJ crowd for this kind of thing, so it's only fair I do the same when my team does it.

Lady Dustin says "bones". Yes, it's possible she was wrong or simplifying. Yes it's possible that GRRM envisioned a pyre, regardless of the practicalities (GRRM frequently gets practicalities wrong, after all). But possible doesn't make likely. We know that the other bodies were buried in cairns. We have nothing in the text to indicate Lyanna was cremated. It would be a difficult thing for Ned and Howland to do. It is not the traditional way to dispose of bodies, taking them to the Silent Sisters is. There's no reason she'd have to be cremated, rather than dealt with the normal way. Thus I don't see why it makes much sense to think she was.

We shouldn't dismiss testimony just because it isn't conclusive and make an assumption that GRRM wasn't thinking through the practicalities clearly unless there is a reason for us to do so. There just isn't such a reason here. Carrying an unprepared body for burial thousands of miles across Westeros is obviously ridiculous, but carrying a body for a day to the nearest major settlement is not. There really is just no issue here.

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On 10/15/2016 at 0:57 AM, wolfmaid7 said:

The point being?

Apparently that wasn't clear to everyone.

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If not quite .Then what?

I conclude that it's probably not meant to be a question.

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Jstar,it is "your" opnion that it is not presented as a mystery.Some of us recognize more subtle clues...The ambiguity,stye,disconnection and misdirection,unreliable narrator testimony which tell us that the location is possibly different.Yes,there is contradiction you just don't want to achknowledge it or you dismiss it.

Certain things in the series are presented to us as mysteries. Who murdered Jon Arryn? Who is Jon Snow's mother? Whether or not Lyanna was really at the ToJ is not one of these things. That doesn't rule out the possibility that it is a mystery, but it's not something anyone in the text questions. So, no, we're not talking about a matter of opinion here. At least not in what I was describing.

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1.Starting with GRRM's statement about Ned's dream.There is a reason why he cautioned that and by extrapolating what we know to be true based upon Ned's waking recollection then its obvious that issue is assuming Lyanna screaming in the dream means he was there.

I do not accept what you claim to know to be true based on Ned's waking recollection, as truth myself. Frankly, I find your arguments on that topic to be poorly reasoned. You simply cannot claim with any certainty that, Ned should have thought X. Which means that your basis for extrapolating GRRM's meaning is also uncertain, at best.

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2.Just the irrationality of Lyanna being there for almost a year shacked up with Rhaegar in what has to be the most conspicous hidey hole ever.And no one saw s**t  for an entire year.Negative evidence kind of kills that and by negative evidence i mean every element needed to support why she "should" be there.

      a.Private enough where activity at that place so close to the Stormlands would have gone unnoticed for a year.

      b.Ned's crypt recollection, waking recollection compared to dream the disconnect is glearing.

Why are you assuming she was at the tower her entire absence?

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I'm going to dismiss replying to anything about what and why the fandom believes X because its not roof on anything.I'll focus on the evidence which as i said starts with negative evidence.In this case for i.e. The need for secrecy and the fact that being there goes against that need.Also,that Lyanna possibly had helpers to deliver Jon and they wouldn't talk because :dunno: goodness of their heart..

GRRM provides us with a location that not only facilitates secrecy,silence and skills for noble pregnant girls,injured or sick.

Sure, poll results, and/or popular opinion, are not the same thing as textual evidence. I get that. But textual evidence is what those results and opinions tend to be based upon. Which means that the views reflect a judgement, and/or evaluation, of the applicable textual evidence. So I don't think it makes sense to just toss aside that information. Nor am I suggesting to accept the results and opinions as absolute truths. In any case, ignoring the information won't make it go away.

As for what you describe as evidence, to me it looks a lot like speculation and assumptions. Or maybe it's the other way around.

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Never did any such thing...I've only ever said that i think there are subtle clues that some of you ignore or it just goes over your head.

Hey wolfmaid, you're doing it again. ;)

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I've read all of these topics carefully. It would actually be nice to have a substantive discussion of alternative parents for Jon Snow. But assertions that disparage reader's comprehension like this....

On 10/14/2016 at 10:57 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

Never did any such thing...I've only ever said that i think there are subtle clues that some of you ignore or it just goes over your head.

... really don't help to make a case.

But then we have....

On 10/18/2016 at 3:14 PM, wolfmaid7 said:

As you so graciously pointed out Ygrain the toj lay in the Dornish marshes,and unless the wetland definitions have changed from real world to book.Marshes are still defined as  wetlands frequently or continually overwhelmed with water. This also means that the characteric vegetation are soft-stemmed vegetation.Vegetation adapted to saturated soil conditions.So you saying that its a Marsh as if that's somehow suppose to spontaneously sprout roses and trees for firewood don't change that roses plus trees that could be felled or even drywood is not going to be laying around for Ned to make a pyre.

... your rather vociferous point that the Tower of Joy is within a swamp, making firewood for a cremation impossible to obtain. However, when pointed out that you actually misread "marshes" instead of "Marches", we get this pivot:

14 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

Ned,with what was available to him could not have made a Pyre to burn Lyanna's body, stay for hours and depending what time it was into the night until the flames died down in the desert with a baby and Howland so he could collect a couple of bones to take home to WF.

2.Situational Ygrain,what does "urnfield culture" have to do with Ned supposedly in the desert with a baby,a body and a bud? Nothing.These cultures had what they needed for their funeral because they had the resources to do so.

Suddenly, the Tower of Joy has been transplanted to a desert (although such a drastic change of locale conveniently also proves your point about lack of firewood. Miraculous :rolleyes:). How is anyone supposed to take your ideas seriously with a blatant about-face such as this?

Honestly, I'm finding it difficult to avoid the conclusion that your argumentation for your theories are simply for the purpose of being contrary, textual evidence be damned.

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23 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

Waitaminnut. If nobody is looking for her, why do you think the toj would be a terrible hiding place? That makes no sense. What's good for the goose, etc.

However, this "nobody's looking for her therefore she wasn't missing" notion doesn't hold up to scrutiny. How many people do you think it would take to scour Westeros for a missing girl? It's completely impractical. The only practical way to look for her is to find out where she is, and then go there. Which is on the face of it just what Ned appears to have done.

You're doing it again. The contention that it is "on a major path" is entirely invented. There is nothing in the text, in the semi canon, in anything, that indicates this. 

It's in the red mountains of Dorne, in the region of the princes pass according to the maps. That's all we have. 

That is not a narrow roadway. It's an area the size of a small country.

 

Based on nothing. Again, the idea that there is no such thing as hiding out in a vast expanse of mountains does not make any sense.

She might be conspicuous to someone visiting the tower, but there's no reason to believe anyone ever goes there. Contrary to the Quiet Isle, which we know is visited.

Some of them would, if they were in a useful location, and no more convenient watchtower were present. There might be a hundred watchtowers of varying ages scattered throughout the Princes Pass. The only need would be for one or two at the north end of the valley that would be able to watch in case of an oncoming army. It would be a waste of manpower to man watchtowers that were guarding routes impractical for armies, or coming from the wrong direction. If the toj was, for example, looking down on the Vulture's Roost side of a mountains, it would have been of no interest. If there were other watchtowers that watched the same bit of road a little further up, perhaps in better condition, again, the toj would be unlikely to be manned.

Again, the Prince's Pass is the size of a small country. 

Do yourself a favour and go use google maps on say Corsica, to give you an idea of what scale we're talking about. The idea that someone riding a horse across Corsica would necessarily see someone hiding in one of the many towers that dot the island is obviously nonsense. This is the kind of area we're discussing.

I'm not pushing the toj further and further into the mountains. I'm objecting to you placing it by the main road, when there is zero information indicating that. As for the practicality, again you're basing this on zero information. Why shouldn't there be a village a few miles away, for example? Again, look at Corsica. Pick one of the main roads. Observe how many places there are 10-20km away from that main road where there are small settlements, even in the mountains.

Even if someone knew they were somewhere in the Prince's Pass, there's no reason to assume they could be found without a massive search effort.

Or somewhere reasonably close to such a place -- that's a pretty major omission. Bodies can be moved short distances before preparations. 

I don't see why we'd know, it's not like we have any extensive lists of the flora and fauna of the Dornish Marches to notice such omissions from.

However as for roses -- so what? We're not exactly talking about heavy luggage here. Roses could be brought from outside. 

We have nothing to indicate that Winter Roses grow in the Riverlands, yet we know there was a crown of winter roses at Harrenhal. Things can be moved from one place to another.

As for wood -- as I pointed out, the marchers are noted for their bowmen, so it's a fair bet they have a decent supply of wood. How close that is to the toj, of course we have no idea.

What makes you think she was pregnant when they went there?

I wonder how you think the natives of the area have babies if you insist they'd die within a few hours out of doors. Maybe they give them some shade?

Carrying a baby and a body through the mountain on a day's journey hardly seems like an impossible task.

So? It's not a secret that she died. 

1.Let me extend what i'm saying with regard to why toj would be a terrible hiding place and it has nothing to do with Lyanna being looked for or not. That arguement can apply to any prospective parentage theory.What i'm saying is it that it would draw more attention to it and someone being in than a place where there's suppose to have people no matter what. A watchtower in war time will have eyes on it for obvious reasons; as a high ground for lookers and if someone is on it's route they'd observe it in case they are being watched.

2. How doesn't it stand up to scrutiny Kingmonkey? Show me anywhere in the text during RR or afterwards that somebody who is suppose to care for Lyanna was looking for her.Even Ned's recollection or retelling of events surrounding that doesn't have him looking for her at all. All we have is " I was with her when she died" Ned reminded the King."

3.How is the description of the Princes pass as a major route disputable?It was formally called the Wide way the easiest route between Dorne and the Reach.Also,one of the major routes between the Stormlands and Dorne.Lastly,we get that the toj is in the Stormlands.This i got from the wiki because i had no time to get the references.The two major paths through the mountains are said to be the Princes's pass and the Boneway.

So how given this info is it disputable?

I'm not saying that its a narrow pass,it was called the Wide way^_^ but i disgree with you that (whatever the size) it wasn't a well travelled one.

4. I find it hard to believe that given Lyanna's condition they would take her up there.the safest place would be Starfall.Even more so because it was Targ friendly.

5.I'm familiar with the scale of the Princes pass  and that its big. That is not a problem for a couple of reasons.The most glaring being the one i laid out prior.How deep do you take a pregant woman  into the mountains.I don't believe the KGS were as deep in the mountains as you seem to think. No matter how big i get a different mental picture of their locations from Ned's

a."They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind."

b.The tower of joy[1] or Tower of Joy[2] was a round tower in the northern edge of the Red Mountains of Dorne.[1] It lay in the Prince's Pass,[3] with Kingsgrave to the south and Nightsong to the north.[4]

This doesn't say dep in the mountains to me.There are parts in your reply i'm intentionally leaving out  for the same problems.

6. Same problem,none of these little castle let loose that Ned showed up with his sister's body to cremate.Even if no one where he came from that would be something to talk about.Just like Lord Borril's "Ned Stark was here."

7.I have no problem about things being moved that's clearly possible,but again factor in the environment and by that i mean that there's a rebellion going on.Would anyone serously risk that?

8. The Marchers being noted for their bowmen doesn't neccessarily mean they didn't get ......I have to stop there and point out again how contradictory these images are.It can't be both that the toj was deep in the mountains and in a marcher lord with the descriptions and locations given.

9.Can't imagine Lyanna in that situation banging it out with Rhaegar while the world burned around them...This is one choice where the absolute reaction would be war.Plus,o paraphrase Tyrion" How much of a love making mood would Sansa be in before and after he tells her they killed her brother and mother?

10.The native of the area have resources available to them,they are prepared for this kind of thing and expect it seeing as they live in a community.That tends to help.

11.Now it's a day's journey? I thought the pass was the size of a small country?

12.Your right its not a secret that she died,but again such a thing getting out.Im not buying that.

 

22 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

First of all, apologies for the delayed reply. I was about halfway through responding when I lost my original reply a few days ago. Then I got caught up in a couple of other discussions, and haven't had much free time since. Anyway...

Which makes perfect sense, since he was awoken before (or after) he went inside the tower.

The idea that this monumental fight took place outside of an empty tower seems really odd to me, narratively speaking. I get that GRRM likes to play with expectations and whatnot, but he's still a writer. From a storytelling perspective, it just seems obvious to me that the combatants were fighting over what was in the tower.

You can call it a table, but where are its legs? :P

Okay, then why focus in on this very narrow, textually unsupported interpretation? You're putting an awful lot of faith in an interpretation -- a guess, in truth -- that is only supported by speculation. This, despite many months of searching for something more.

From memory, you had said something like, There's nothing that requires Lyanna to have been at the ToJ. Which I read as you meaning that the text places her there, but that the text might be misleading.

What gap? Ned has a dream about the tower that features Lyanna. He hears her scream while outside of the tower.

Again, it's a gotcha if he reveals that Lyanna wasn't in the tower without providing any evidence beforehand that that was the case. I'm somewhat surprised that this is a debatable point. I mean, author says X, never contradicts X, then reveals X is not true. How is that not a gotcha?

My guess is that your instinct will be to reply that, he doesn't really say X. Except that he does. Because she's there in the dream, and the dream is in the text. So the question becomes, does that mean she was actually there? If she wasn't, as you and some others contend, there should be some evidence (re: not speculation) suggesting that she wasn't.

I'm not going to claim to be an authority on how GRRM writes, but I don't think it's controversial to state that he seems like he leaves clues about the mysteries in his books.

I believe we've been over this before. There were clues in the text about LF & Lysa. You not seeing the clues ≠ no clues. So you're not talking about the same scenario I am.

Yes, there is a big gap in the data re: Lyanna's whereabouts before and during the rebellion. However, the one data point we have places her at the ToJ at the end of the war.

I've got a suggestion on how you could convince others. Support your case with textual evidence instead of speculation.

For the record, I find the argument that Arthur is Jon's father to be much more compelling than the argument that Lyanna was not at the ToJ. Because that theory doesn't effectively end with the question: Hey, what if Rhaegar isn't the father? At least not in my opinion, but I'm probably a bigger fan of the idea than most RLJers. ;)

No problemo,i know how it is.

Not from where i sit.....He was still giving detail as to what happened.

I don't think its odd from a narrative point of view.What's weird is 3 dudes no matter how good they were thinking they could meet whatever number that was coming up that road and win.What if Ned had 10 or 12 guys.There's noway they could reasonably take such a chance if it was somthing else other than their lives.That's suicide.What makes sense is that no one else was there and they were going out like bosses.

Hahahaha:P That's what we are discussing.Plus have you never seen a levitating table?

Dude it is your opnion that it is textually unsupported.You can say that and you have that right just as i have the right to say and believe that i think you got dupped by the text.

That the text is deceptive yes.That the things that proponents require for Lyanna to be there is at times problematic.That i think GRRM cleverly gave us the answer to where Lanna was yes.

Nooooo Ned's dream does not 'feature" Lyanna him hearing Poole scream in Lyanna's voice yeah. Again,and i hate to sound like a broken record but this is a dream and elements in the dream aren't neccessarily sequential,spatial and temporally related. 

It's not a gotcha.....He has Brienne going to look for a Stark girl on an Isle that he tells us plays hosts to noble girls that are pregant,the sick and injured.That could never be a gotcha.

Yes there is evidence she wasn't you all just don't accept it and that is ok.Not trying to change your mind just penning so to speak for future generations.No matter how many times we cite just how impractical the situation is,how there is a problem when Ned negates mentioning Lyanna's body at anytime during the waking recollection to put her physically there.The caution from the author who let's face it would not have said that if everyhing was as is with the dream.

Neither do i,i think he does leave clues,but again as i said this comes down to what you think are clues and what i think.To me Red herrings aren't clues.

And there are clues in the text about Robert and Lyanna.You don't think they are and that's cool it will all come out in the end.That's simple enough.For now we are just talking getting things doen on paper.

You mean the dream? Well boy do i have a quest for you.

Jstar,if you haven't guessed by now.I don't care about convincing others.There's nothing in it for me if people believe it or not.I just have to be patient.To which i could be patient and wrong,patient and right.The answer to this is not dependent on your belief or the belief of others.So spout the ridicule,the digs.It doesn't matter or phase me.

 

 

 

19 hours ago, J. Stargaryen said:

Apparently that wasn't clear to everyone.

I conclude that it's probably not meant to be a question.

Certain things in the series are presented to us as mysteries. Who murdered Jon Arryn? Who is Jon Snow's mother? Whether or not Lyanna was really at the ToJ is not one of these things. That doesn't rule out the possibility that it is a mystery, but it's not something anyone in the text questions. So, no, we're not talking about a matter of opinion here. At least not in what I was describing.

I do not accept what you claim to know to be true based on Ned's waking recollection, as truth myself. Frankly, I find your arguments on that topic to be poorly reasoned. You simply cannot claim with any certainty that, Ned should have thought X. Which means that your basis for extrapolating GRRM's meaning is also uncertain, at best.

Why are you assuming she was at the tower her entire absence?

Sure, poll results, and/or popular opinion, are not the same thing as textual evidence. I get that. But textual evidence is what those results and opinions tend to be based upon. Which means that the views reflect a judgement, and/or evaluation, of the applicable textual evidence. So I don't think it makes sense to just toss aside that information. Nor am I suggesting to accept the results and opinions as absolute truths. In any case, ignoring the information won't make it go away.

As for what you describe as evidence, to me it looks a lot like speculation and assumptions. Or maybe it's the other way around.

Hey wolfmaid, you're doing it again. ;)

1.:dunno:

2.That's on you

3.It is your opinion that it is not presented as a mystery and the fact that no one doesn't question it doesn preclude it.No one in the book questions who Jon Snow's father is but it is a mystery.:P

4.I'm not making any arguement about what Ned should have done.I'm making this arguement based on a disconnection between Lyanna's death and him pulling down the tower.Based on the author's caution about the dream about things like Wylla the wet nurse being one of the day for some reason as if someone forsaw Lyanna wouldn't be around to have milk.

5.And nobody noticed any movement from outside the pass to in via the two main routes.They got to eat i assume.

6.No in this case polls are based on interpretations and again popularity doesn't maketh right.

7.And you are entitled to that just as i'm entitled to my belief that you all got taken in by the preconcieved character notions  based on Arthurian romances that is a part of the westrosi culture.They've grown up with Princes running away with young girls and wars starting for lovers to fight over them.Its perception.

8.:dunno:

10 hours ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

I've read all of these topics carefully. It would actually be nice to have a substantive discussion of alternative parents for Jon Snow. But assertions that disparage reader's comprehension like this....

... really don't help to make a case.

But then we have....

... your rather vociferous point that the Tower of Joy is within a swamp, making firewood for a cremation impossible to obtain. However, when pointed out that you actually misread "marshes" instead of "Marches", we get this pivot:

Suddenly, the Tower of Joy has been transplanted to a desert (although such a drastic change of locale conveniently also proves your point about lack of firewood. Miraculous :rolleyes:). How is anyone supposed to take your ideas seriously with a blatant about-face such as this?

Honestly, I'm finding it difficult to avoid the conclusion that your argumentation for your theories are simply for the purpose of being contrary, textual evidence be damned.

It would be nice to but NLG,let's be honest you all haven't been anything but rude,condecending.Go back and see what your very first post to me was? So please don't play that card.Me saying it went over your head was in reply to your "remark" and i was being vey nice about it.If something went over your head so be it or converse.

I get nothing out of this,you all act as if there is going to be some prize one by he/she whose ideas or theories have the biggest following or most believers.That means nothing come WOW.

NLG what are you talking about? The geography was always wrong which is what i pointed out from the get .Misread or not i was still correct. So what was your excuse if you knew that the toj was in the marcher lands and the lands were a certain way then why insist on there being a forest? You either knew and held the info or didn't know .The toj is an area that is described as plains,moors and grasslands. So what's he going to start a pyre with? This isn't some roaming clan,under what you all are proposing he rode up,sister died and he had to use what was there.......Not much .So,yy point whether or not it was marches or marshes the area still doesn't have what it took to meet that need in that circumstance.

If you are the type of person to reject a fact because someone sees and accept a mistake then that's your problem.I don't care if you take me serously or not.This aint a popularity contest.

Yep,this is all for me being contrary. 

No hard feelings.We all have problems because i find it very hard to see how and i say this with the uttmost respect "oblivious" you are to the kind of story your reading. He gives us these types of lessons over and over.The Devil is in the detail,the little things,the perspective,the bias,the culture of this story.So you go ahead and buy the Prince ran off with the Tomboy who didn't want to marry womanizing brute ,dies,brother comes back with baby says its his.So obviosly Prince got her preggers and  she died in chilldbirth .But as i said we will have lots to talk about when WOW comes out.

 

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On October 20, 2016 at 11:33 PM, J. Stargaryen said:

First of all, apologies for the delayed reply. I was about halfway through responding when I lost my original reply a few days ago. Then I got caught up in a couple of other discussions, and haven't had much free time since. Anyway...

No worries--the number of replies I've lost is now beyond count. And I, too, have had my play time severely limited lately.

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Which makes perfect sense, since he was awoken before (or after) he went inside the tower.

Definitely possible.

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The idea that this monumental fight took place outside of an empty tower seems really odd to me, narratively speaking. I get that GRRM likes to play with expectations and whatnot, but he's still a writer. From a storytelling perspective, it just seems obvious to me that the combatants were fighting over what was in the tower.

But it wouldn't be odd for a big fight to happen in the Prince's Pass. The World Book gives multiple examples of just that happening over the centuries--that the Stony Dornish defend the Pass. Fight in the Pass. Defending their homes/castles not in the castles but in the Pass. 

And they could be defending what's in the tower. But given that Ned and Howland were able to pull the thing down, it can't have been that great of a tower. And it may just have been where they met (by accident or plan) to fight. If it's a watchtower, it could be a good vantage point for the 3 KG to see Ned coming and wait for him.

Or, they could be defending the tower, as you say. Though they make no mention of guarding the tower. They say they have been "far away." Not "here." Leaves plenty of room for them to have been doing their "duty" elsewhere.

On October 20, 2016 at 11:33 PM, J. Stargaryen said:

You can call it a table, but where are its legs? :P

HA! Well, the legs are the fact it's a dream and Martin's statement on dreams.

On October 20, 2016 at 11:33 PM, J. Stargaryen said:

Okay, then why focus in on this very narrow, textually unsupported interpretation? You're putting an awful lot of faith in an interpretation -- a guess, in truth -- that is only supported by speculation. This, despite many months of searching for something more.

Because we know Ned conflates things in the dream. He tells us so himself--his friends aren't wraiths at the time of the fight. But he dreams them that way--conflating the living and the dead. 

And Martin's statement--what in the dream are we likely to take literally that we shouldn't? That the fighters are wraiths? No--Ned tells us that in text. The storm of rose petals? Again, that seems unlikely, unless readers conflate Martin with Disney. The convo between Ned and the KG is ritualized, but not surreal. 

But the scream--Ned could be dreaming of the moment he literally heard Lyanna scream because she was in the tower. But since the scream comes at the same moment as the rose-petal storm, a blood-streaked sky, and a "rush of steel and shadow"--all of those things are figurative. Not literal. Conflations. Seems like the scream being the same would really, really fit as something we shouldn't take literally.

Especially since Martin then brings in the Daynes and their "memory" or "tradition" of Jon Snow's origins being tied to Starfall. And has that info given to Lyanna's niece who is so very like her.

We're all speculating until we get the new book (humph). But Martin flat out warned that questioner years ago about literality and the dream. In a question where the questioner stated he thought Ned went into the tower and found Lyanna. But the books have not said this. At all. Seems like that's a gap worth respecting.

On October 20, 2016 at 11:33 PM, J. Stargaryen said:

From memory, you had said something like, There's nothing that requires Lyanna to have been at the ToJ. Which I read as you meaning that the text places her there, but that the text might be misleading.

Ah--no. Sorry, I should have been clearer. The text leaves open the possibility that she is there. But it doesn't place her there andy more than . . . symbolically. Like the rose petal storm. 

On October 20, 2016 at 11:33 PM, J. Stargaryen said:

I've got a suggestion on how you could convince others. Support your case with textual evidence instead of speculation.

HA! Until we get the next book, we all have to speculate re: where Lyanna was.

But as for the text, we have Jon connecting the Red Mountains of Dorne with the North in his head when listening to Mance. That could be the tower--but could also be Starfall.

And in that same book where Jon keeps hearing Mance sing "Dornishman's Wife," Arya hears from Edric Dayne (who is only ever called Ned--a fact Martin draws a big red circle around not only with Arya but also since Edric Storm, son of Ned's best friend, is never called Ned) about Jon's connection to Starfall.

And in the same book where Jon has his Sword of the Morning moment with the Wall.

Like the tower "evidence," it's also largely symbolic. And suggestive. But it's there. And it's tied to Jon himself, if not Lyanna. Connects Jon to Starfall and the Daynes.

On October 20, 2016 at 11:33 PM, J. Stargaryen said:

What gap? Ned has a dream about the tower that features Lyanna. He hears her scream while outside of the tower.

Yes. But he only hears her scream as he starts to fight. And fight the only KG for whom he shows emotion, or to whom he assigns emotion: Arthur.

The tower is no longer mentioned at that point--the fight is what is associated with her scream. And the rose storm. And the bloody sky.

After he wakes, he tells us more about the tower--that he pulled it down to bury the men. For now, how that tower relates to Lyanna isn't clear. That the fight is tied to her is very clear. But even then, the how isn't.

I think it's because Ned killed Arthur, as you know. Both from the dream fight and from Bran's memory. That Arthur is the one who matters and that Ned very likely killed his sister's love. Killed Jon's father. And buried him with the tower. Only finding out afterwards that he had killed his sister's love.

But no way there isn't room for other interps, too.

On October 20, 2016 at 11:33 PM, J. Stargaryen said:

Again, it's a gotcha if he reveals that Lyanna wasn't in the tower without providing any evidence beforehand that that was the case. I'm somewhat surprised that this is a debatable point. I mean, author says X, never contradicts X, then reveals X is not true. How is that not a gotcha?

Well, he does provide evidence that Lyanna could be elsewhere: Starfall. He's been bringing in Starfall as tied to Jon since the beginning of the books. And Ned's emotional tie to Arthur. And Ned Dayne's nickname and story. And Jon's tie to Dawn. Martin's tied Jon to Starfall. Tied his "mother" to Starfall. If Lyanna is Jon's mother (which I really think she is), his being tied to Starfall ties her there, too. And Martin's been laying the groundwork for that since Cat's first POV.

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'm not going to claim to be an authority on how GRRM writes, but I don't think it's controversial to state that he seems like he leaves clues about the mysteries in his books.

Agreed. Not controversial at all.

On October 20, 2016 at 11:33 PM, J. Stargaryen said:

Yes, there is a big gap in the data re: Lyanna's whereabouts before and during the rebellion. However, the one data point we have places her at the ToJ at the end of the war.

No--the one data point we have is that Ned's dream about Lyanna associates the tower, the men, and Lyanna together. But whether or not they are all in the same place has yet to be determined.

On October 20, 2016 at 11:33 PM, J. Stargaryen said:

For the record, I find the argument that Arthur is Jon's father to be much more compelling than the argument that Lyanna was not at the ToJ. Because that theory doesn't effectively end with the question: Hey, what if Rhaegar isn't the father? At least not in my opinion, but I'm probably a bigger fan of the idea than most RLJers. ;)

:cheers:

And, for the record, I find the idea of Rhaegar and Lyanna being Jon's parents very intriguing. I struggle to make it work with the text (and characters), but it would be very satisfying.

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On October 20, 2016 at 11:08 PM, Kingmonkey said:

You're doing it again. The contention that it is "on a major path" is entirely invented. There is nothing in the text, in the semi canon, in anything, that indicates this. 

It's in the red mountains of Dorne, in the region of the princes pass according to the maps. That's all we have. 

 

11 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

How is the description of the Princes pass as a major route disputable?It was formally called the Wide way the easiest route between Dorne and the Reach.Also,one of the major routes between the Stormlands and Dorne.Lastly,we get that the toj is in the Stormlands.This i got from the wiki because i had no time to get the references.The two major paths through the mountains are said to be the Princes's pass and the Boneway.

@Kingmonkey:  You're right that the novels don't give us this.

The novels haven't even told us it was in the Prince's Pass--just that the Red Mountains of Dorne are behind the KG.

But to @wolfmaid7's point: the World Book does make a point of the Prince's Pass as being a major thoroughfare.

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Rhaenys Targaryen had no such easy conquest. A host of Dornish spearmen guarded the Prince's Pass, the gateway through the Red Mountains, but Rhaenys did not engage them. World Book: Reign of the Dragons: The Conquest. 

I won't list them all, but it also gives multiple examples of very large numbers of troops moving through the Pass. And even the Stony Dornish leaving their castles to have battles in the Pass.

The Boneway, the other pass in the Red Mountains, is called treacherous: 

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Daeron divided his host into three forces: one led by Lord Tyrell, who came down the Prince's Pass at the western end of the Red Mountains of Dorne; one led by the king's cousin and master of ships, Alyn Velaryon, traveling by sea; and one led by the king himself, marching down the treacherous pass called the Boneway, where he made use of goat tracks that others considered too dangerous, to go around the Dornish watchtowers and avoid the same traps that had caught Orys Baratheon. The young king then swept away every force that sought to stop him. The Prince's Pass was won, and, most importantly, the royal fleet broke the Planky Town and then was able to drive upriver. World Book: The Targaryen Kings: Daeron I.

So, the Prince's Pass is the Wide Way--the safer and main overland route. And the Boneway, also a route, is the harder, more treacherous one--at least according to the World Book.

As for being a good hiding place:

The World Book makes it clear that the denizens of the Prince's Pass keep a close eye on it. Compares them to the Vale Clans. And also strongly implies that the Fowlers at one end of the pass and the Carrons at the other end don't trust each other. The Fowlers once burned Nightsong.

And the novels tell us that during war, the Stony Dornish keep a close eye on all of the mountain passes. 

So, until we get it in the novels, the tower might not be in the Prince's Pass. 

But whether it's just in the region or in the Pass itself--that is a place with a LOT of traffic and suspicion and watching. Same can be said of the Boneway. And in a region where the lords keep very careful watch during wartime. And don't trust each other to keep watch.

So, hiding out there seems impractical. Going there for short time to perform a sacrifice per your theory could work--if they aren't there for long. Or stopping there in an emergency--sure. But hiding out on purpose--given what Martin's told us of that region in the World Book, seems like that would be unwise at best.

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12 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

What i'm saying is it that it would draw more attention to it and someone being in than a place where there's suppose to have people no matter what. A watchtower in war time will have eyes on it for obvious reasons; as a high ground for lookers and if someone is on it's route they'd observe it in case they are being watched.

What makes you think that a presence at the toj, it would attract any attention? Do you think the mountains of Dorne are uninhabited? In this area of thousands of square miles, do you expect the Dornish forces to check out every camp fire they spot in the distance, question every herder, check every old building to see who's there?

Dorne's army is too small. It would take thousands, probably tens of thousands, of scouts to give even reasonable coverage of the region. And it would be utterly pointless.

They are watching for the unlikely event that an army moves south. An army would come by the road.  With Ned's forces moving south they might finally have reason to put a few dozen scouts in some other strategic points just on the unlikely off-chance that Ned decided to do a Hannibal rather than taking his army down the wide way, but they're not out looking for a small band hiding away in the mountains, they're watching for armies.

This notion that it is impossible for people to hide away in thousands of square miles of mountainous terrain is frankly absurd. People do it all the time, in the middle of war zones, without being found. 

12 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

2. How doesn't it stand up to scrutiny Kingmonkey? Show me anywhere in the text during RR or afterwards that somebody who is suppose to care for Lyanna was looking for her.Even Ned's recollection or retelling of events surrounding that doesn't have him looking for her at all. All we have is " I was with her when she died" Ned reminded the King."

So he just accidentally stumbled across her while she was dying by pure coincidence and wasn't looking for her at all?

It doesn't stand up to scrutiny because you're making a totally false assumption. That there aren't people out looking for someone doesn't mean that they aren't missing. If you don't know where to start, what on earth would be the point of looking? Do you expect Robert and Ned to search the whole of Westeros for her? 

But apparently she wasn't missing, she was at the Quiet Isle all along and everyone knew this? "Robert fought a war to win her back" when he could've just gone up the road and fetched her?

12 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

3.How is the description of the Princes pass as a major route disputable?It was formally called the Wide way the easiest route between Dorne and the Reach.Also,one of the major routes between the Stormlands and Dorne.Lastly,we get that the toj is in the Stormlands.This i got from the wiki because i had no time to get the references.The two major paths through the mountains are said to be the Princes's pass and the Boneway.

I'm not disputing that the Princes Pass is a major route, nor a well travelled one. I'm disputing that all parts of the Prince's Pass are clearly visible to people passing down that major route.

The neck is the easiest route between the North and the Riverlands. Virtually all the traffic heading north passes up the King's Road. Does that mean it would be impossible for people to hang around the Neck without being spotted?

12 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

4. I find it hard to believe that given Lyanna's condition they would take her up there.the safest place would be Starfall.Even more so because it was Targ friendly.

Who says she was pregnant when they took her there?

12 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

a."They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind."

b.The tower of joy[1] or Tower of Joy[2] was a round tower in the northern edge of the Red Mountains of Dorne.[1] It lay in the Prince's Pass,[3] with Kingsgrave to the south and Nightsong to the north.[4]

This doesn't say dep in the mountains to me.There are parts in your reply i'm intentionally leaving out  for the same problems.

Keep in mind that in this case "deep in the mountains" only has to be a few miles, and it's going to be well out off the beaten track. There's nothing in the text you quote that's remotely problematic for that.

12 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

6. Same problem,none of these little castle let loose that Ned showed up with his sister's body to cremate.Even if no one where he came from that would be something to talk about.Just like Lord Borril's "Ned Stark was here."

Who says they're not talking about it all the time? Did you read all the chapters set at Kingsgrave, Starfall and Nightsong very carefully to check?

Don't you see the double standard here? You contend that her body was treated at the Quiet Isle, where we actually have a PoV chapter, and nobody mentions it there. Yet you deem it impossible that her body could have been treated at Kingsgrave for example, because despite the fact we haven't had any PoV information from either, we'd somehow HAVE to have heard of it?

12 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

7.I have no problem about things being moved that's clearly possible,but again factor in the environment and by that i mean that there's a rebellion going on.Would anyone serously risk that?

Erm... yes. We know for a fact that they would. Ned took Dawn back to Starfall, remember? 

12 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

8. The Marchers being noted for their bowmen doesn't neccessarily mean they didn't get ......I have to stop there and point out again how contradictory these images are.It can't be both that the toj was deep in the mountains and in a marcher lord with the descriptions and locations given.

Huh? I didn't say the ToJ was in the lowlands of the marches (I assume that's what you meant). I was merely addressing the suggestion that there was little wood in the marches.

12 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

9.Can't imagine Lyanna in that situation banging it out with Rhaegar while the world burned around them...This is one choice where the absolute reaction would be war.Plus,o paraphrase Tyrion" How much of a love making mood would Sansa be in before and after he tells her they killed her brother and mother?

Ask Robert, or Dany, or Barristan, or any of the other people who can imagine it. 

12 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

10.The native of the area have resources available to them,they are prepared for this kind of thing and expect it seeing as they live in a community.That tends to help.

And why wouldn't those resources be available visitors to the area?

12 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

11.Now it's a day's journey? I thought the pass was the size of a small country?

Yes, and? What has the size of the place got to do with it? If you're a day's journey from the nearest major town, you're a day's journey from the nearest major town whether the country you are in is tiny or vast. 

12 hours ago, wolfmaid7 said:

12.Your right its not a secret that she died,but again such a thing getting out.Im not buying that.

What does this even mean? Who says it didn't get out? It's no secret that she died. Why should it be a secret where her body was treated for transport? It could be perfectly well known to everyone who cares. Maybe there's a friggin' plaque up somewhere in Nightsong. 

Yeah, we haven't been told. So? It's not an important detail. It must have happened somewhere, yet we've never had an indication of it. So as far as the reader is concerned, it clearly didn't "get out" -- which has zero bearing on whether other people in world know that information or not.

You're contending her body was prepared for transport at the Quiet Isle -- which we've actually seen, and even heard an account of from the very time in question -- and it didn't "get out". How on earth can you say you buy that, but you don't buy the possibility that it would have happened in a place we've never seen, involving people we've never heard from, and yet that somehow must have gotten out?

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

But whether it's just in the region or in the Pass itself--that is a place with a LOT of traffic and suspicion and watching. Same can be said of the Boneway. And in a region where the lords keep very careful watch during wartime. And don't trust each other to keep watch.

So, hiding out there seems impractical. Going there for short time to perform a sacrifice per your theory could work--if they aren't there for long. Or stopping there in an emergency--sure. But hiding out on purpose--given what Martin's told us of that region in the World Book, seems like that would be unwise at best.

Sure it's a place with a lot of traffic, but it's also a BIG place. You wouldn't be able to move an army through there without someone spotting you. A few people hanging out in an old abandoned building, though? There could be a hundred such scattered around the Prince's Pass at any time. Old buildings would get temporarily occupied on a regular basis by passing locals. The sheer scale of the region makes it impractical to check them all out -- and there's no reason why anyone would care about a small group anyway. 

In case you missed it a couple of threads back, on the official Westeros map, it's possible to fit the entirety of the Iron Islands into the Prince's Pass. Even assuming a pretty major scaling issue, we're dealing with an area the size of a small country. Much larger armies than the Dornish, equipped with night vision goggles and drones, have a lot of trouble finding people hiding in mountainous regions smaller than this. 

A Japanese WW2 hold-out was able to stay hidden on tiny Guam, close to a major American military base, for 17 years, but the 3KG couldn't stay hidden for a few months in a region at least 10 and possibly 50 times as large?

Does not make sense.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

The novels haven't even told us it was in the Prince's Pass--just that the Red Mountains of Dorne are behind the KG.

[..]

So, until we get it in the novels, the tower might not be in the Prince's Pass. 

We do have the tower's location depicted on one of the maps from the main novels: A Dance with Dragons-Map of the South

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I'm afraid I don't have the time to adress the responses properly, I would only like to point out that if Ned could bring down a tower and build eight cairns from its stones, it is utterly ridiculous to claim that he couldn't have possessed the means to build one frikkin pyre. Whether he had too much time on his hands, or had access to some manpower, is unknown, but the thing with the tower and cairns is stated black on white right there in the books, in Ned's waking and sober memory. 

Oh, and GRRM has enough material for a pyre huge enough to burn a man, a woman and a horse, to the point of leaving only ashes and bones, in a dry grassland, so please stop claiming that there would be a problem with finding fuel in the mountains.

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3 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

So, hiding out there seems impractical. Going there for short time to perform a sacrifice per your theory could work--if they aren't there for long. Or stopping there in an emergency--sure. But hiding out on purpose--given what Martin's told us of that region in the World Book, seems like that would be unwise at best.

Sorry to have been out of touch for so long, but I've been otherwise occupied for a few weeks. I think I owe you a response, Sly Wren, and would like to get to it if you are still interested.

Instead of that, for right now, just let me add this to your and Kingmonkey's conversation. Kingmonkey makes a very good point about the size of the Prince's Pass. Martin has constructed the continent of Westeros to be the size of South America, and the pass itself is a large formation that would allow a small party to hide out - if they are aware of their surroundings, can blend in with locals, and have some way of supporting themselves for months. This however is not the only scenario to be considered.

Rhaegar has supporters in his fight for the crown. How many and who they are are unknown. If one asks about who controls the area around the Tower of Joy and whether or not they are supporters of Rhaegar, then the answer to that question would seem to be rather important in figuring just how hidden the party at the tower has to be. If the local lord is sending troops around his territory looking for spies, and would consider the Prince's party as intruders it would be one thing. If the local lord tells his troops to stay away from the old tower and to do other things, then we have something altogether different. The truth is we don't even know for sure who this local lord would be, much less who his or her political sympathies are with.

There has been a very long history of discussion on these boards of just how the people at the tower would be supplied if they were there for any length of time. The support of Starfall is often invoked as the leading candidate for this role, but the Daynes are far removed for the northern end of the Prince's Pass. It may be more simple than that. This could just be another of the Prince's supporters who knows how to keep a secret hidden in his or her territory. Or at least I think so. If we have a local authority's support for the party hiding in the tower, then what we are talking about is hiding from searchers from far away with no particular reason to be looking here. A far simpler task.

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