Brynden Rivers

[Lurid Jester]

9 hours ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Bran was the 1001'st attempt at finding a dreamer who could fly, and he succeeded. We all know what Thousand and One refers to in ASOIAF

Ok, I'm going to open myself up to ridicule but is this something other than the 1000 eyes and 1 reference?  I may need some caffeine.

[cgrav]

1 hour ago, Lurid Jester said:

Maybe it's a way of saying something along the lines of "Winter is coming, and here we wear its skin".  You know, because the Starks have faced it in the past and won. 

well, the Boltons were rumored (Old Nan?) to have worn their enemies skins long in the past. 

Though I think those definitions referring earth, stone, and strength are the ones being referenced by the name Winterfell. It makes a lot of sense, as geologically active areas with hot springs and such are often raised due to the subsurface activity. Yellowstone sits on a gigantic dome of limestone, hot water, and lava. Iceland - a significant historical and literary influence on Ice and Fire - is basically a giant lava bubble in the earth's crust.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

2 hours ago, YOVMO said:

I also feel this. He took his exile to the wall very stoically. While we do not know what transpired when he was LC where he went "missing" I have a feeling it was something that he suffered for a greater good based on his character in general.

Yeah, I mean...it takes a special kind of selflessness to sacrifice even your own honour for the realm (and thanklessly that too). I can't see why someone would devote themselves to the existence we see of him in ADWD for "destroying the realm" or whatever....it's completely illogical. He's getting nothing out of this, as far as we can see.

He's not a good guy by any means, but none of his acts can be called evil/cruel. Intensely practical, and most often for the good of the realm. Just my personal opinion, but for a person in power (as Bran,Jon etc will be) I don't think Ned's honour can be applied to every situation - sometimes you need a BR-like attitude.

[Little Scribe of Naath]

1 hour ago, Lurid Jester said:

Ok, I'm going to open myself up to ridicule but is this something other than the 1000 eyes and 1 reference?  I may need some caffeine.

Yes, just so. The famous saying about BR.

[Dorian Martell]

 

On 9/15/2016 at 11:55 AM, Knight of valour said:

So why would he be working with the Others who seem to be all about destroying the entire world.

What do you think of this dude guys and what are his motives.

It is simple really. there is no reason to think he is working with the others. I suppose you can try to rationalize how someone is working for the others while living in a cave that is magically protected against the other's minions and then work very hard to contact a son of winterfell, teach him to use his magic powers and then work to get him to that cave and then train him more.  

On 9/15/2016 at 0:21 PM, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I don't think he is the three eyed crow... He's Blood Raven not a Crow

But I do think there is evidence he could be in league with or the cause of or a puppet of the Others...

He also seems to not really have scruples when it comes to honor... In fact it seems like he is an Oathbreaker (left the Wall without dying), violating guest right (killing the Blackfyre got him sent to the Wall by Egg), and as mentioned above shoots Daemon's Sons so as to kill the father... Textbook lack of honor

So vengeance on the realm that has now ousted his family from power, with the help of the Children of the Forrest who have their own reasons for vengeance against the realms of men seems a distinct possibility.

1: Who is the 3ec then? 
2: What Evidence has led you to this conclusion? 
3: Honor =/= good or evil.  There can be honor or a lack of it in good or evil. 
4: This begs the question, why help bran if he wants to get vengence? 

16 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Considering how long the others have been around.... Very unusual to think that BR is their man

It just seems more likely that he has been aware of their coming for awhile and had to stick around until someone else powerful enough (bran) can learn all of his powers and search through the weir-net for some advice for the humans on the battle for dawn. 

This is by far the most rational solution
 

17 hours ago, Knight of valour said:

It seems to me that Brynden Rivers is on the side of the Others. 

It if fairly obvious that Brynden Rivers is Crasters father. All the dates and ages match for that to be and also it is said that his father was from the night's watch. Craster is recruiting more Others for the Others by sacrifising his male children to them. And when he gets killed by the night's watch Brynden Rivers sends his goon Coldhands to brutaly slaughter the night's watch who killed his son Craster. Why would he do this if he is good? It was because he got angry that his son got killed and the Others only known source of new Others. He also seems very sinister in his now Bloodraven form.

how is it obvious? Also, why would it be more likely to be Bryndend as opposed any other Ranger? DOes Than make him Mance's dad too?

6 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Read what you just wrote... Wtf when is feeding unsuspecting people human flesh perfectly logical and ok?

When you are starving and near death. That is survival. I know it can be hard to empathize with something like that, especially if you have never been actually starving. Coldhands needs to get Bran to the three eyed crow so he can be merged with a tree. It is stated that Bloodraven's life has been extended far beyond what is normally possible for a human. Bran is the last hope of warm things so not lettign him starve is extremely important. They already have butchered the elk they werer riding. If it takes some long pig to keep Bran alive then his life is important 

 

[The Fattest Leech]

3 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Yeah, I mean...it takes a special kind of selflessness to sacrifice even your own honour for the realm (and thanklessly that too). I can't see why someone would devote themselves to the existence we see of him in ADWD for "destroying the realm" or whatever....it's completely illogical. He's getting nothing out of this, as far as we can see.

He's not a good guy by any means, but none of his acts can be called evil/cruel. Intensely practical, and most often for the good of the realm. Just my personal opinion, but for a person in power (as Bran,Jon etc will be) I don't think Ned's honour can be applied to every situation - sometimes you need a BR-like attitude.

Brynden worked tirelessly for the realm and to defeat the Blackfyres (of which I also have an odd affinity to, but not like my main mulch man, Bloodraven).

 

In general, He had both an old god and the seven connection to Westeros, so I think he was a great intermediary for both. 

Mormont went on and on with both Jon and Sam that the NIghts Watch had forgotten its true purpose. Not saying BR was all knowing as LC, but he may have had some insight to the true purpose with being a ranger and a greenseer and all. Somehow the idea the a ranger is the "human" form of a greenseer comes into play for me.

"A thousand eyes, a hundred skins, wisdom deep as the roots of ancient trees. Greenseers."

[Lurid Jester]

15 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Yes, just so. The famous saying about BR.

Whew. Ok. I feel better. I started to think that BR saying was a reference to some deeper meaning I had missed. 

[The Fattest Leech]

18 hours ago, Knight of valour said:

It seems to me that Brynden Rivers is on the side of the Others. 

It if fairly obvious that Brynden Rivers is Crasters father. All the dates and ages match for that to be and also it is said that his father was from the night's watch. Craster is recruiting more Others for the Others by sacrifising his male children to them. And when he gets killed by the night's watch Brynden Rivers sends his goon Coldhands to brutaly slaughter the night's watch who killed his son Craster. Why would he do this if he is good? It was because he got angry that his son got killed and the Others only known source of new Others. He also seems very sinister in his now Bloodraven form.

No, not obvious at all. I got RLJ on my second reread, yet nothing on this. Please explain because this is the first I ever heard of this.

Sometimes corn is just corn.

[YOVMO]

13 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

Yeah, I mean...it takes a special kind of selflessness to sacrifice even your own honour for the realm (and thanklessly that too).

Exactly. I feel that GRRM puts a big emphasis on sacrifice of ones own honor. Obviously Ned. But also Griff who lives the life of a sell sword, Jon when he kills the Halfhand and joins the wildlings and probably Doran Martell who eats a lot of doodie but is probably planning something.The idea of sacrificing ones own honor is a big deal. Even Sansa pretending to be a bastard (though that is more about survival than noble purposes).  I would even go as far to say that Jamie is one of, if not the, biggest sacrificers of honor. I mean, he thinks about the nobility of knighthood and the greatness of Dayne and Aryes other KG. For all his arrogance and brashness and don't give a f@*kness he is keenly aware of the fact that he is now the Kingslayer because he was put in an impossible position between his king and his father and he never really complains....he just lives up to the part.

 

If you follow the characters who have silently borne their own loss of honor or position willingly (Aemon) you see the story of the most important characters. To think that Bloodraven won't fit this pattern is totally nutso.

 

Also, this is a stark contradiction (pun intended) to guys like littlefinger who have no nobility or honor to give up...rather they steal it where they can. 

 

13 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

I can't see why someone would devote themselves to the existence we see of him in ADWD for "destroying the realm" or whatever....it's completely illogical. He's getting nothing out of this, as far as we can see.

Again, correct. I mean, there is definitely something we don't know about BR and his motivations and we will, if the gods are good old and new, see in TWoW. I simply can't by BR on a angry "lets destroy the world because i didn't get mine" streak or even, for that matter, taking revenge on the realm because of the downfall of the targaryens.  It just doesn't give with who he is.....I mean, sure, his time at the wall and his time with a tree in his eye and mushrooms on his head has probably changed him some, but he is still him. He wants something and whatever it is, it simply doesn't seem like it will be something selfish.

13 minutes ago, Little Scribe of Naath said:

He's not a good guy by any means, but none of his acts can be called evil/cruel. Intensely practical, and most often for the good of the realm. Just my personal opinion, but for a person in power (as Bran,Jon etc will be) I don't think Ned's honour can be applied to every situation - sometimes you need a BR-like attitude.

The one thing I get from bloodraven as we see him in the Weircave is lethargy and depression. I mean, he has been watching and he knows. There is a deep sadness and world-weariness -- the German word  Weltschmerz seems to be the absolute perfect description. So what could BR want that he wants for a non selfish reason? I know it is totally tinfoil but I think it might be something similar to (if not actually in league with) the faceless men. All men must die may not be just a pithy kind of slogan, but an imperative.....all men must die.....if BR is to be "evil" and bringing about the long night I could very well believe it was something like giving the gift of death to all people. Not saying that this is what it is, but the weight of causing an apocalypse weighing on his heart though knowing he has to do it to prevent suffering is much more in line with BR than any of the ideas that he is just some big jerk face trying to avenge a dynasty 

 

Sorry if rambling.

[YOVMO]

27 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

In general, He had both an old god and the seven connection to Westeros, so I think he was a great intermediary for both. 

I may be mistaken here, but at some point isn't he referred to as a wizard? I almost get the sense that, during the BF revolt, he was kind of like a mix between Marwyn, Legolas and Robert Smith. 

[YOVMO]

31 minutes ago, Dorian Martell said:

3: Honor =/= good or evil.  There can be honor or a lack of it in good or evil. 

yes, yes and yes. Kind of, ya know, like one of the big themes of the entire series. Really well put.

[YOVMO]

26 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

No, not obvious at all. I got RLJ on my second reread, yet nothing on this. Please explain because this is the first I ever heard of this.

Sometimes corn is just corn.

I am pretty much top 10% of tinfoil when it comes to people and swords being other than they seem but I have to say that BR being Craster's father makes no sense at all to me. When I think of outlandishly dumb ideas that I argue for like it meant my life and are almost in no way possible I at least try to make them meet the following criteria

1) Does it violate any rules of the asoiaf universe

2) If true, is it in any way meaningful 

3) Would it change anything (assuming that if it has been a secret for this long the reason it is a secret is important).

 

While it doesn't necessarily violate any laws of the universe it would seem out of character for BR to be fathering some wildling bastard. Even if BR was Craster's father it is totally meaningless. Craster is dead. He served his purpose and not one scrap of that purpose had anything to do with him being a lost targ or in someway powerful. And finally, if we found out tomorrow from GRRM that Craster's father was BR (the way we found out Dunk was an ancestor of Brienne) it would literally have 0 impact on our story.

 

Even dumb lunatics like me can't get on board with that.

[Macgregor of the North]

12 hours ago, cgrav said:

The stone imagery is s linguistic reference. "Fell" is a Germanic word/root for Stone, and as a descriptor for something strong ("one fell swoop") and it persists in some British English as well. The North and Starks in particular are given this Germanic flavor by GRRM, and the mythological/literary references follow the geography, with more Norse and pre-Roman British influence showing up north of the wall.

Winterfell would translate to "Stone of Winter" or "Strength of Winter", likely referring to the castle's traditional role as the last line of defense against the horrors of winter. 

That's a fine wee passage there, but unsure if it really applies as a reply to my own post if I'm honest?

[cgrav]

10 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

That's a fine wee passage there, but unsure if it really applies as a reply to my own post if I'm honest?

You had mentioned the stone in Jon's green/wolf dream as representing the crypt, so I was pointing out that it could refer to Winterfell more broadly.

[Winter Blues]

To the OP, I love this thread because I love Bryden Rivers. Just one quick question: as much as he loves his family, do you think, had he been in his prime, he would have done away with the Mad King himself? I want to draw a parallel between his reaction at seeing his family and house torn apart after Robert's Rebellion and Aegon's, who said that he "watched" his house torn to pieces and could do nothing.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

On 2016-09-16 at 5:43 PM, Little Scribe of Naath said:

BR is the 3EC, he just doesn't realise that he appears that way in Bran's dream.

Much like Bran doesn't realise he appears as a tree to Jon in ACOK, where he opens his third eye.

A clue that BR is indeed the 3EC:

Bran was the 1001'st attempt at finding a dreamer who could fly, and he succeeded. We all know what Thousand and One refers to in ASOIAF

You are wrong on that last part, A thousand eyes were a common saying in the time were Brynden Rivers ruled the seven kingdoms because he was believed to be a sorcerer. Brynden only had 1 eye because Aegor Rivers stabbed out 1 of his eyes. Also because he had so many spies the saying became 1 eye of Brynden plus the 1000 eyes of the spies in his employ meaning he knew everything that was going on and that made people afraid.

[Lurid Jester]

5 hours ago, Knight of valour said:

You are wrong on that last part, A thousand eyes were a common saying in the time were Brynden Rivers ruled the seven kingdoms because he was believed to be a sorcerer. Brynden only had 1 eye because Aegor Rivers stabbed out 1 of his eyes. Also because he had so many spies the saying became 1 eye of Brynden plus the 1000 eyes of the spies in his employ meaning he knew everything that was going on and that made people afraid.

I'm pretty sure that's what Little Scribe is talking about. 

[Little Scribe of Naath]

6 hours ago, Knight of valour said:

You are wrong on that last part, A thousand eyes were a common saying in the time were Brynden Rivers ruled the seven kingdoms because he was believed to be a sorcerer. Brynden only had 1 eye because Aegor Rivers stabbed out 1 of his eyes. Also because he had so many spies the saying became 1 eye of Brynden plus the 1000 eyes of the spies in his employ meaning he knew everything that was going on and that made people afraid.

Yeah, that is what I meant, the number 1001 is very much associated with BR in the text.

[Clegane'sPup]

It’s been a while since I read the novellas. I read the D & E stories before they were combined into one book.   Are there any hints/clues of how BR earned his riddle?

How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have the riddle ran. A thousand eyes, and one. Some claimed the King's Hand was a student of the dark arts who could change his face, put on the likeness of a one-eyed dog, and even turn into a mist. Packs of gaunt gray wolves hunted down his foes, men said, and carrion crows spied for him and whispered secrets in his ear. Most of the tales were only tales, Dunk did not doubt, but no one could doubt that Bloodraven had informers everywhere.

I mean he was sent to the Wall when he was approximately 58 years of age.  I was wondering if there was any reference in the novellas who taught him.

The “could change his face” thing sounds like maybe a glamour, like Jaqen used when he left Arya.

Packs of gaunt grey wolves speaks to me of warg. Turning into a mist, well he kinda sorta did when he disappeared.

Crows spied for him and whispered secrets in his ear. Kinda reminds me of what the ravens are doing in DwD.

As to the OP I would think that neither BR nor the CotF are in cahoots with the Others because they are living in a cave that is warded against the wights and the wights seem to be the minions of the Others.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

On September 16, 2016 at 11:37 PM, Dorian Martell said:

1: Who is the 3ec then? 
2: What Evidence has led you to this conclusion? 
3: Honor =/= good or evil.  There can be honor or a lack of it in good or evil. 
4: This begs the question, why help bran if he wants to get vengence? 

This is by far the most rational solution

When you are starving and near death. That is survival. I know it can be hard to empathize with something like that, especially if you have never been actually starving. Coldhands needs to get Bran to the three eyed crow so he can be merged with a tree. It is stated that Bloodraven's life has been extended far beyond what is normally possible for a human. Bran is the last hope of warm things so not lettign him starve is extremely important. They already have butchered the elk they werer riding. If it takes some long pig to keep Bran alive then his life is important 

 

So first off I understand that the simple explanation is that Bryndon Rivers, Blood Raven, the old green seer in the tree is the three eyed crow who appears to Bran, it's one of those heavily implied things.

But I think it's important to remember it isn't ever confirmed in the text, in fact when Bran asks him he has no idea what Bran is talking about...

It's been suggested that maybe BR doesn't know the form he takes in Bran's dream, this is possible but it doesn't make sense to me...

Also, to be clear I'm discussing the books and not the show, if that needed to be said, in the show the three eyed Raven is clearly meant to be BR in the tree, but you'll notice the name change, and that none of the dreams appear in the show anyway.

I've been wondering who the 3eC is for years now and while BR appeared in those 3 Bran chapters we got in Dance, sorry it wasn't enough to convince me we've found the answer.

1. I don't know, could be Bran himself, or the old gods, or the green men on the isle of faces, just don't think it's BR.

2.Bran asks BR if he's the three eyed crow and BR doesn't know what he's talking about... Bran appears as a tree when he shows up to Jon, I think BR was the tree in Brans falling dream... Especially since it seems like BR can't talk through his dreams like Bran can. Also, there are some distinct similarities between what Bran sees in the falling dream, BR's Lair under the weirwoods grove, and the House of the Undying... I could go on and on but this is just the quick version.

3. So we need to use something as the definition of good/evil (or I guess not one could say it's all grey) so I went with the rules set forth by the old gods in the series, BR violates almost all of them.

4. Is he helping Bran? I'm not so certain of this either... He certainly sends Coldhands to retrieve him, but I'm not at all sure BRs endgame here is in Brans best interest, or even the best interest of mankind

I mean it's not clear to me who the Nights Watch guys coldhands killed and fed to Bran were... Could have been traitors, or not, I'm unsure. But either way I hear what you are saying I just am highly suspicious of someone who would slip kids manmeat without telling them...