Do u believe Varys' castration story?

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

About how some man took his fishing rod and bobbers with a hooked blade. Said man then tosses said rod into a fire and it turns green and starts talking BACK to the guy who theoned or unsullied Varys, this would be one of the bigger magical events we've heard of in the Robert-Era. Who has that kind of power?

Do you believe this story? One of the few (could count on 1 hand) times I think Varys gave away knowledge for no personal gain, but I also know as always he didn't tell him everything (obviously) I really do believe he just wanted to see how an educated guy like Tyrion would react to that.

The ONLY reason I believe Varys is castrated is bc I subscribe to the Aegon Blackfyre theory, which to me makes too much sense to be false. Especially after reading the world book and realizing bittersteel's men were finally trying to head home again 

I don't believe it was marwyn as I see him being someone who loves their vices however he gives Sam good advice and doesn't seem that malicious. Who else could pull this off (we do know it was a male)

(I don't remember if a whore grabbed where his Johnson should be or if that was only the show) I need a brush up on books 1&2

Sidenote how the hell has marwyn or Alleras or even Leo Tyrell not noticed a change in pate's behavior? That's always really really bugged me 

[YOVMO]

17 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

About how some man took his fishing rod and bobbers with a hooked blade. Said man then tosses said rod into a fire and it turns green and starts talking BACK to the guy who theoned or unsullied Varys, this would be one of the bigger magical events we've heard of in the Robert-Era. Who has that kind of power?

Do you believe this story? One of the few (could count on 1 hand) times I think Varys gave away knowledge for no personal gain, but I also know as always he didn't tell him everything (obviously) I really do believe he just wanted to see how an educated guy like Tyrion would react to that.

The ONLY reason I believe Varys is castrated is bc I subscribe to the Aegon Blackfyre theory, which to me makes too much sense to be false. Especially after reading the world book and realizing bittersteel's men were finally trying to head home again 

I don't believe it was marwyn as I see him being someone who loves their vices however he gives Sam good advice and doesn't seem that malicious. Who else could pull this off (we do know it was a male)

(I don't remember if a whore grabbed where his Johnson should be or if that was only the show) I need a brush up on books 1&2

Sidenote how the hell has marwyn or Alleras or even Leo Tyrell not noticed a change in pate's behavior? That's always really really bugged me 

I find it interesting that you bring Pate up in a discussion of Varys as I have long believed Varys to be either a high ranking or even possibly the first faceless man.

[erra]

There's no reason to believe he lied about it. The first time Tyrion asks, he flat out refuses to speak of it and Tyrion can see that he's different when thinking about it.

When Varys finally explains to Tyrion why, it's because he's relating it to Stannis, and how if Stannis has thrown in with Magic and the Darker Arts especially to win the Iron Throne, he doesn't want anything to do with Stannis gaining that throne. This is at a time when Tyrion is not sure who to trust, Varys uses the story to prove to him that whatever he does, it won't be treasonous support for Stannis. imo.

I also don't think the man who did it was of any consequence. 

If you want to take the show as "similar enough", then in the scene where he explains the story to Tyrion, he's actually un-crating an old man who came from across the Narrow Sea. Can't remember if it's spelled out, but we're lead to believe it is the man who castrated Varys.

Westeros during Robert's time didn't really have any magic going on, the Maesters were doing their best to ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist. The wall's still standing because of powerful magic though. Arguably some of the other grandiose castles were built with more than a little as well. 

But magic in general still happened a in the east, just think of the Maegi who "helps" Dany. Or the Warlocks she meets in Quarth. Or the firemage she sees there too, climbing a fire ladder. 

Conjuring a voice from a fire doesn't seem so extremely powerful to me.  

[GallowsKnight]

22 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

The ONLY reason I believe Varys is castrated is bc I subscribe to the Aegon Blackfyre theory, which to me makes too much sense to be false. Especially after reading the world book and realizing bittersteel's men were finally trying to head home again

I thought this was a question whether he was castrated. Which I believe he was. Because I too think a Blackfyre plot is the only way Vary's behaviours over the years make sense. As for the magic? Who know. I believe he himself gives himself an out saying it could be the drugs or the pain causing him to hallucinate.

[Lurid Jester]

28 minutes ago, erra said:

Conjuring a voice from a fire doesn't seem so extremely powerful to me.  

I always linked it with Melisandre and the red priests due primarily to the whole communication through flames.  The show appears to have confirmed that, but it's the show so who the hell knows. 

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

52 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

I always linked it with Melisandre and the red priests due primarily to the whole communication through flames.  The show appears to have confirmed that, but it's the show so who the hell knows. 

Me too that's why I commented on it being powerful. Mel has never gotten close to talking to anyone 

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

1 hour ago, GallowsKnight said:

I thought this was a question whether he was castrated. Which I believe he was. Because I too think a Blackfyre plot is the only way Vary's behaviours over the years make sense. As for the magic? Who know. I believe he himself gives himself an out saying it could be the drugs or the pain causing him to hallucinate.

I mean I can ask you guys a question about a character's actions/diologue but also have my own opinion already. I'm willing to hear anyone out. I was just stating my take on it

I'm sorry you lost me after magic. An out with who? And what drugs? I'm not trying to sound like a d*** whatsoever 

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

1 hour ago, erra said:

There's no reason to believe he lied about it. The first time Tyrion asks, he flat out refuses to speak of it and Tyrion can see that he's different when thinking about it.

When Varys finally explains to Tyrion why, it's because he's relating it to Stannis, and how if Stannis has thrown in with Magic and the Darker Arts especially to win the Iron Throne, he doesn't want anything to do with Stannis gaining that throne. This is at a time when Tyrion is not sure who to trust, Varys uses the story to prove to him that whatever he does, it won't be treasonous support for Stannis. imo.

I also don't think the man who did it was of any consequence. 

If you want to take the show as "similar enough", then in the scene where he explains the story to Tyrion, he's actually un-crating an old man who came from across the Narrow Sea. Can't remember if it's spelled out, but we're lead to believe it is the man who castrated Varys.

Westeros during Robert's time didn't really have any magic going on, the Maesters were doing their best to ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist. The wall's still standing because of powerful magic though. Arguably some of the other grandiose castles were built with more than a little as well. 

But magic in general still happened a in the east, just think of the Maegi who "helps" Dany. Or the Warlocks she meets in Quarth. Or the firemage she sees there too, climbing a fire ladder. 

Conjuring a voice from a fire doesn't seem so extremely powerful to me.  

I was going to bring up the east but Dany's Dragons helped all of the examples you used, I still agree with you but I would say chopping a Peter off and talking to someone/anyone you want is pretty freaking amazing for asoiaf time period. And whoever this magic man was probably should have tried to hook up with BR somehow. I heard he doesn't dig those blackfyres much. Lost an eye fighting against them, killed some sons idk big mess

[Lurid Jester]

6 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Me too that's why I commented on it being powerful. Mel has never gotten close to talking to anyone 

Could be that whomever was doing the talking decided to be less obvious by taking on the roll of Rhllor and working in vague portents and prophetic visions in the flames. 

Yeah, I totally think Rhllor is just some "wizard" that commandeered the red priesthood for his or her own ends. 

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

4 minutes ago, Lurid Jester said:

Could be that whomever was doing the talking decided to be less obvious by taking on the roll of Rhllor and working in vague portents and prophetic visions in the flames. 

Yeah, I totally think Rhllor is just some "wizard" that commandeered the red priesthood for his or her own ends. 

Yeah it's really odd but I always thought it was a red priest even though it was green. Maybe you're right on that, it would be discrete to use flames to cover your tracks no doubt. 

What about Beric? Do you think rhollor is (somewhat) real or did thoros not do anything at all? Sorry The "gods" or whatever they have are very confusing to me in this. I know I'm putting some pressure on you too lol

[Lurid Jester]

39 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Yeah it's really odd but I always thought it was a red priest even though it was green. Maybe you're right on that, it would be discrete to use flames to cover your tracks no doubt. 

What about Beric? Do you think rhollor is (somewhat) real or did thoros not do anything at all? Sorry The "gods" or whatever they have are very confusing to me in this. I know I'm putting some pressure on you too lol

I don't think Rhllor is real per se. More of someone with power pretending to be Rhllor and thus manipulating the red priesthood into doing their bidding. 

As to Baric and the other "fire zombies"... I'm at a loss. I imagine that the priests are true vessels or conduits of fRhllor's power but have less control than they think do but I don't understand the purpose of the resurrections other than a convenient plot device.

I also tend to think the red priests are to fire are to fRhllor as the greenseers are to the weirwood trees are to Bloodraven/Old gods. 

And no worries.  I'm here for the discussions.

[GallowsKnight]

1 hour ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

I'm sorry you lost me after magic. An out with who? And what drugs? I'm not trying to sound like a d*** whatsoever 

I meant he provides the alternative explanation himself. It didn't have to be magic. He could have hallucinated due to the drugs,  pain or blood loss. 

He says the warlock drugged him.

[Dorian Martell]

7 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

About how some man took his fishing rod and bobbers with a hooked blade. Said man then tosses said rod into a fire and it turns green and starts talking BACK to the guy who theoned or unsullied Varys, this would be one of the bigger magical events we've heard of in the Robert-Era. Who has that kind of power?

Do you believe this story? One of the few (could count on 1 hand) times I think Varys gave away knowledge for no personal gain, but I also know as always he didn't tell him everything (obviously) I really do believe he just wanted to see how an educated guy like Tyrion would react to that.

The ONLY reason I believe Varys is castrated is bc I subscribe to the Aegon Blackfyre theory, which to me makes too much sense to be false. Especially after reading the world book and realizing bittersteel's men were finally trying to head home again 

I don't believe it was marwyn as I see him being someone who loves their vices however he gives Sam good advice and doesn't seem that malicious. Who else could pull this off (we do know it was a male)

(I don't remember if a whore grabbed where his Johnson should be or if that was only the show) I need a brush up on books 1&2

Sidenote how the hell has marwyn or Alleras or even Leo Tyrell not noticed a change in pate's behavior? That's always really really bugged me 

I think it is true because the mad king seemed like the kinda guy who would demand a peek before he hired varys on 

[bent branch]

I absolutely believe Varys' story. However, before I explain why I need to address a few mistakes in your understanding.

1)  Varys was not castrated during Robert's era. Varys was castrated as a pre-pubescent boy. That means around age 10. If we assume that Varys was about 25 when he came to KL, then at the start of the story he would have been about 40 years old. More realistically, given that Varys had a highly successful criminal enterprise before coming to KL, Varys was more likely about 35 years old at the time he came to KL. Therefore, Varys at the start of the story is about 40 to 50 years old. This would make his castration 30 to 40 years in the past, or between 258 to 268. This could be in the reign of Aegon V, Jaehaerys II, or Aerys II. This was long before any of the events leading up to RR (Robert was only 6 at the latest possible date).

2)  The second misunderstanding is that no magic was going on during this period. While magic was weak, there was magic being done even in Westeros. We know during this time period there was prophets (Daeron and GoHH), wizards (Bloodraven) and alchemists (the pyromancers) in Westeros. The difference in this era and the era after the birth of the dragons is how easy magic was. During the time that Varys was castrated magic was very difficult and the cost was high (like burning the genitals of a pre-pubescent boy).

Now, on to why I believe Varys' story about being castrated. I am going to answer the question very narrowly, without trying to put any interpretation of what Varys' story being true would mean. From one of the best known scenes in the book we have Varys saying this:

"A shadow on the wall," Varys murmured, "yet shadows can kill." - Chapter 8 ACOK

Melisandre tells Davos this in Chapter 42-ACOK, "You are more ignorant than a child, ser knight. There are no shadows in the dark. Shadows are the servants of light, the children of fire. The brightest flame casts the darkest shadows."

In Chapter 5-ADWD Illyrio tells us this about Varys, "By day he slept in the sewers..."

And Tyrion makes this observation about Varys' quarters in Chapter 12-ASOS:
 

Quote

 

...Varys smiled his slimiest smile. "Though I confess, I had not thought to find you in mine own humble chambers."

"They are humble. Excessively so, in truth." Tyrion had waited until Varys was summoned by his father before slipping in to pay him a visit. The eunuch's apartments were sparse and small, three snug windowless chambers under the north wall.

 

How I put these pieces of information together is that (1) Varys knows about how shadows can be used to kill people. (2) Varys knows there can be no shadows in complete darkness. (3) Varys takes care to sleep where there can be no shadows (sewers and windowless rooms).

I think this shows that Varys has experienced magic in an extremely frightening way and his castration story would fit that situation.

[Byfort of Corfe]

On ‎9‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 6:14 AM, bent branch said:

 

How I put these pieces of information together is that (1) Varys knows about how shadows can be used to kill people. (2) Varys knows there can be no shadows in complete darkness. (3) Varys takes care to sleep where there can be no shadows (sewers and windowless rooms).

I think this shows that Varys has experienced magic in an extremely frightening way and his castration story would fit that situation.

Very good points that I hadn't picked up on.  I always believed Varys' story because I too felt that it fit the explanation of why he opposed Stannis but with your comments I am even more convinced that Varys is telling the truth.  I also wonder about R'Hllor since he is the only god that actually interacts with humans.  I have a feeling that this will wind up in a confrontation with Bran since the Red Priests/Priestesses are involved in some pretty horrible practices.

[Equilibrium]

Nope, he is not eunuch.

What is easier, for a non-eunuch to pretend to be eunuch or vice versa, how can Varys pull Rugen off if he is eunuch, even with advanced FM skills or something.

He can't, he is not eunuch and he is purposely making ultra macho Westerosi underestimate and dismiss him by portraying an eunuch.

[Red Man Racey]

5 hours ago, Equilibrium said:

Nope, he is not eunuch.

What is easier, for a non-eunuch to pretend to be eunuch or vice versa, how can Varys pull Rugen off if he is eunuch, even with advanced FM skills or something.

He can't, he is not eunuch and he is purposely making ultra macho Westerosi underestimate and dismiss him by portraying an eunuch.

What does playing Rugen have to do with anything? Does Rugen walk around with no pants on in the performance of his duties or did I miss something?

Personally, I've always believed Varys' story of how he came to be a eunuch and reading @bent branch's analysis further cements my belief (very good assessment with details I had not picked up on).

[Lost Melnibonean]

Here's the relevant passage from Tyrion X, Clash 44, when we get our first big chunk of Varys’s backstory when Tyrion asks Varys to speculate on how Cortnay Penrose was killed. . .

Quote

 

For a long moment Varys said nothing. The only sound was the stately clack of horseshoes on cobbles. Finally the eunuch cleared his throat. "My lord, do you believe in the old powers?"

"Magic, you mean?" Tyrion said impatiently. "Bloodspells, curses, shapeshifting, those sorts of things?" He snorted. "Do you mean to suggest that Ser Cortnay was magicked to his death?"

"Ser Cortnay had challenged Lord Stannis to single combat on the morning he died. I ask you, is this the act of a man lost to despair? Then there is the matter of Lord Renly's mysterious and most fortuitous murder, even as his battle lines were forming up to sweep his brother from the field." The eunuch paused a moment. "My lord, you once asked me how it was that I was cut."

"I recall," said Tyrion. "You did not want to talk of it."

"Nor do I, but . . . " This pause was longer than the one before, and when Varys spoke again his voice was different somehow. "I was an orphan boy apprenticed to a traveling folly. Our master owned a fat little cog and we sailed up and down the narrow sea performing in all the Free Cities and from time to time in Oldtown and King's Landing.

"One day at Myr, a certain man came to our folly. After the performance, he made an offer for me that my master found too tempting to refuse. I was in terror. I feared the man meant to use me as I had heard men used small boys, but in truth the only part of me he had need of was my manhood. He gave me a potion that made me powerless to move or speak, yet did nothing to dull my senses. With a long hooked blade, he sliced me root and stem, chanting all the while. I watched him burn my manly parts on a brazier. The flames turned blue, and I heard a voice answer his call, though I did not understand the words they spoke.

"The mummers had sailed by the time he was done with me. Once I had served his purpose, the man had no further interest in me, so he put me out. When I asked him what I should do now, he answered that he supposed I should die. To spite him, I resolved to live. I begged, I stole, and I sold what parts of my body still remained to me. Soon I was as good a thief as any in Myr, and when I was older I learned that often the contents of a man's letters are more valuable than the contents of his purse.

"Yet I still dream of that night, my lord. Not of the sorcerer, nor his blade, nor even the way my manhood shriveled as it burned. I dream of the voice. The voice from the flames. Was it a god, a demon, some conjurer's trick? I could not tell you, and I know all the tricks. All I can say for a certainty is that he called it, and it answered, and since that day I have hated magic and all those who practice it. If Lord Stannis is one such, I mean to see him dead."

When he was done, they rode in silence for a time. Finally Tyrion said, "A harrowing tale. I'm sorry."

The eunuch sighed. "You are sorry, but you do not believe me. No, my lord, no need to apologize. I was drugged and in pain and it was a very long time ago and far across the sea. No doubt I dreamed that voice. I've told myself as much a thousand times."

 

Note this passage follows after the reiterated hint that only the blood of the dragon would ever know the secrets of the fortress the Dragonlords. Later in Storm, Melisandre will tell us that there is much power in a king’s blood. And much later in Feast, Qyburn will tell Cersei, "Bloodmagic is the darkest kind of sorcery. Some say it is the most powerful as well." So, we can infer that Varys is a Targaryen descendant, and that this Myrish sorcerer knew it somehow. He wanted Varys’s manhood for his spell so badly that he made an offer that Varys’s master found too tempting to refuse.

I wonder if there is any significance to the flames turning blue, and who or what the sorcerer spoke with.

In any event, the passage suggests that Varys hates magic and all those who practice it. I expect he will tolerate dragons, but this hayred of magic would set him at direct odds with Melisandre, other magic wielding followers of the red god, and the faceless men. 

We have to keep in mind that the author is telling us a story, not relating a history. So, wE shouldn't doubt what we are told unless we are given reason to doubt what we are told. I don't see any reason to doubt this story of Varys’s castration, and that Varys hates and fears the dark powers. 

[aryagonnakill#2]

On ‎9‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 7:14 AM, bent branch said:

I absolutely believe Varys' story. However, before I explain why I need to address a few mistakes in your understanding.

1)  Varys was not castrated during Robert's era. Varys was castrated as a pre-pubescent boy. That means around age 10. If we assume that Varys was about 25 when he came to KL, then at the start of the story he would have been about 40 years old. More realistically, given that Varys had a highly successful criminal enterprise before coming to KL, Varys was more likely about 35 years old at the time he came to KL. Therefore, Varys at the start of the story is about 40 to 50 years old. This would make his castration 30 to 40 years in the past, or between 258 to 268. This could be in the reign of Aegon V, Jaehaerys II, or Aerys II. This was long before any of the events leading up to RR (Robert was only 6 at the latest possible date).

2)  The second misunderstanding is that no magic was going on during this period. While magic was weak, there was magic being done even in Westeros. We know during this time period there was prophets (Daeron and GoHH), wizards (Bloodraven) and alchemists (the pyromancers) in Westeros. The difference in this era and the era after the birth of the dragons is how easy magic was. During the time that Varys was castrated magic was very difficult and the cost was high (like burning the genitals of a pre-pubescent boy).

Now, on to why I believe Varys' story about being castrated. I am going to answer the question very narrowly, without trying to put any interpretation of what Varys' story being true would mean. From one of the best known scenes in the book we have Varys saying this:

"A shadow on the wall," Varys murmured, "yet shadows can kill." - Chapter 8 ACOK

Melisandre tells Davos this in Chapter 42-ACOK, "You are more ignorant than a child, ser knight. There are no shadows in the dark. Shadows are the servants of light, the children of fire. The brightest flame casts the darkest shadows."

In Chapter 5-ADWD Illyrio tells us this about Varys, "By day he slept in the sewers..."

And Tyrion makes this observation about Varys' quarters in Chapter 12-ASOS:
 

How I put these pieces of information together is that (1) Varys knows about how shadows can be used to kill people. (2) Varys knows there can be no shadows in complete darkness. (3) Varys takes care to sleep where there can be no shadows (sewers and windowless rooms).

I think this shows that Varys has experienced magic in an extremely frightening way and his castration story would fit that situation.

I think he simply meant after the dragons died and magic seems to have been weakened.

[LiveFirstDieLater]

Trained in a mummers troop, sold for an unspecified "couldn't be refused" cost, had manhood taken, all men must die...

Screams Faceless Men

Also Illyrio is constantly described as moving too lightly on his feet for a man who appears so large.

The hating magic thing is worth deeper thought though since he is repeatedly referred to as a sorcerer or wizard

not sure he can really hate magic and support dragons...