Do u believe Varys' castration story?

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Trained in a mummers troop, sold for an unspecified "couldn't be refused" cost, had manhood taken, all men must die...

Screams Faceless Men

Also Illyrio is constantly described as moving too lightly on his feet for a man who appears so large.

The hating magic thing is worth deeper thought though since he is repeatedly referred to as a sorcerer or wizard

not sure he can really hate magic and support dragons... 

I understand what you’re saying about Illyrio. But this...

Quote

"If one Hand can die, why not a second?" replied the man with the accent and the forked yellow beard. "You have danced the dance before, my friend." He was no one Arya had ever seen before, she was certain of it. Grossly fat, yet he seemed to walk lightly, carrying his weight on the balls of his feet as a water dancer might. His rings glimmered in the torchlight, red-gold and pale silver, crusted with rubies, sapphires, slitted yellow tiger eyes. Every finger wore a ring; some had two.

Arya III, Game 32

Might only have been intended to set up this...

Quote

 

"Varys came from Myr."

"So he did. I met him not long after he arrived, one step ahead of the slavers. By day he slept in the sewers, by night he prowled the rooftops like a cat. I was near as poor, a bravo in soiled silks, living by my blade. Perhaps you chanced to glimpse the statue by my pool? Pytho Malanon carved that when I was six-and-ten. A lovely thing, though now I weep to see it."

 

Tyrion II, Dance 5

That Illyrio was surprisingly light on his feet for a large man does not immediately suggest that he is a Faceless Man.

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

15 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I understand what you’re saying about Illyrio. But this...

Arya III, Game 32

Might only have been intended to set up this...

Tyrion II, Dance 5

That Illyrio was surprisingly light on his feet for a large man does not immediately suggest that he is a Faceless Man.

 

Yes but doesn't it seem a little odd more than just the cursory explanation he gives to Tyrion... I mean without getting into the false gold beard and that sort of metaphorical thing.

He can't travel with Tyrion because of his size, but sneaking across the ocean and into the red keep was no problem...

could he just be an opulent fat man who hands out dragon eggs like its essosi easter? Maybe but at this point it seems like he's a pretty sneaky dude, I'd bet that it's an act

The faceless men thing is another leap, but I think it makes sense at this point... In fact you'll notice Illyrio was once a Braavo...

He had yellow teeth too, although it becomes soort of an exercise in futility if they can change their appearance:

"From time to time others would visit the House of Black and White. The fat fellow had fierce black eyes, a hook nose, and a wide mouth full of yellow teeth. The stern face never smiled; his eyes were pale, his lips full and dark. The handsome man had a beard of a different color every time she saw him, and a different nose, but he was never less than comely. Those three came most often, but there were others: the squinter, the lordling, the starved man. One time the fat fellow and the squinter came together."

[Lost Melnibonean]

18 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Yes but doesn't it seem a little odd more than just the cursory explanation he gives to Tyrion... I mean without getting into the false gold beard and that sort of metaphorical thing.

He can't travel with Tyrion because of his size, but sneaking across the ocean and into the red keep was no problem...

could he just be an opulent fat man who hands out dragon eggs like its essosi easter? Maybe but at this point it seems like he's a pretty sneaky dude, I'd bet that it's an act

The faceless men thing is another leap, but I think it makes sense at this point... In fact you'll notice Illyrio was once a Braavo...

He had yellow teeth too, although it becomes soort of an exercise in futility if they can change their appearance:

"From time to time others would visit the House of Black and White. The fat fellow had fierce black eyes, a hook nose, and a wide mouth full of yellow teeth. The stern face never smiled; his eyes were pale, his lips full and dark. The handsome man had a beard of a different color every time she saw him, and a different nose, but he was never less than comely. Those three came most often, but there were others: the squinter, the lordling, the starved man. One time the fat fellow and the squinter came together."

All through the series we are given cause to wonder about Illyrio's motivations. I reached the conclusion that he is Daemon Blackfyre's heir, and that Varys is helping Illyrio to install Illyrio's son Aegon on the Iron Throne. While I cannot say you're theory is impossible, I think The Blackfyre subplot is far more likely than Illyrio and Varys advancing some agenda of the Faceless Men. 

[cgrav]

I would think if Illyrio showed up in the same room at the House of Black and White as Arya, there'd have been some textual reference to the scene in GoT where she heard Illyrio and Varys talking.

 

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

9 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

All through the series we are given cause to wonder about Illyrio's motivations. I reached the conclusion that he is Daemon Blackfyre's heir, and that Varys is helping Illyrio to install Illyrio's son Aegon on the Iron Throne. While I cannot say you're theory is impossible, I think The Blackfyre subplot is far more likely than Illyrio and Varys advancing some agenda of the Faceless Men. 

But not really mutually exclusive... Especially if (as I expect Arya too) one might get some training then not stay/serve the faceless men. We don't know much about the organization, (for instance do they serve for life?).

Anyway, I think the best argument against Illyrio actively being an active faceless man would be that he trades in and keeps slaves...

Unfortunately, at this point Illyrio seems to be such a knot of contradictions that's it's very hard to unwind... Fat but light on his feet, selling Dany for an army but giving her eggs, raising Aegon to rule but helping Viserys/Dany... 

I'm always torn between who I think is a blackfyre... Illyrio? Serra? Varys? But probably Aegon...

[LiveFirstDieLater]

8 minutes ago, cgrav said:

I would think if Illyrio showed up in the same room at the House of Black and White as Arya, there'd have been some textual reference to the scene in GoT where she heard Illyrio and Varys talking.

 

 

Unless he, oh I don't know, changed his face?

not to mention Arya didn't get a great look the first time

[Lost Melnibonean]

32 minutes ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Unless he, oh I don't know, changed his face?

not to mention Arya didn't get a great look the first time

She saw Varys and Illyrio well enough to notice something familiar about Ruggen, and to know that she had never seen the fat man before. 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

7 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

She saw Varys and Illyrio well enough to notice something familiar about Ruggen, and to know that she had never seen the fat man before. 

Wait, she had seen Varys enough to recognize Ruggen (and only that there was something familiar, she certainly doesn't know it was him, of course he was wearing a "fake" face)... perchance

[cgrav]

5 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

Unless he, oh I don't know, changed his face?

not to mention Arya didn't get a great look the first time

Except that the basis of the Illyrio =  Faceless argument is that the physical descriptions have some similarity. That goes out the window if he changes his face.

There's also the fact that Illyrio looked the same for at least as long as Danaerys was in his custody, and looks the same when Tyrion meets him. His long time occupation as a merchant requires that he look the same any time he meets someone more than once. What's the point of being a Faceless Man if he never changes his face? It would be a Faceless Ex Machina, and I won't assume bad writing until I see it bear out on the page.

While it's possible that Illyrio maybe visited the HoBaW to hire an assassin, there's still the complete lack of recognition by Arya, who might be the only Westerosi besides Varys who would recognize him. The forked yellow beard is among Illyrio's most distinctive features, and no such thing is mentioned when by Arya. And while many random characters (including direwolves) are described has having "yellow teeth", Illyrio's teeth are invariably described as "crooked yellow teeth".

It's hard to tell, but there could be timeline issues, as well.  The beginnings of Feast and Dance roughly overlap, so it's hard to put Illyrio in Braavos for any amount of time when he's also housing and transporting Tyrion. Plus, there's a decent hint that Illyrio is killed by pirates after dropping Tyrion in Volantis.

[Ser Walton]

Could the Unsullied have a hidden purpose?  If castrations are used for fire magic, as Varys says, someone has a bulging sack of them. 

 

[LiveFirstDieLater]

10 hours ago, cgrav said:

Except that the basis of the Illyrio =  Faceless argument is that the physical descriptions have some similarity. That goes out the window if he changes his face.

There's also the fact that Illyrio looked the same for at least as long as Danaerys was in his custody, and looks the same when Tyrion meets him. His long time occupation as a merchant requires that he look the same any time he meets someone more than once. What's the point of being a Faceless Man if he never changes his face? It would be a Faceless Ex Machina, and I won't assume bad writing until I see it bear out on the page.

While it's possible that Illyrio maybe visited the HoBaW to hire an assassin, there's still the complete lack of recognition by Arya, who might be the only Westerosi besides Varys who would recognize him. The forked yellow beard is among Illyrio's most distinctive features, and no such thing is mentioned when by Arya. And while many random characters (including direwolves) are described has having "yellow teeth", Illyrio's teeth are invariably described as "crooked yellow teeth".

It's hard to tell, but there could be timeline issues, as well.  The beginnings of Feast and Dance roughly overlap, so it's hard to put Illyrio in Braavos for any amount of time when he's also housing and transporting Tyrion. Plus, there's a decent hint that Illyrio is killed by pirates after dropping Tyrion in Volantis.

At this point I'm just playing devils advocate... But if the handsome man stays handsome even when he changed his face, might not the fat man stay fat? Arya recognizes something familiar about ruggen when most who have seen Varys plenty don't think twice... Now she doesn't have the same exposure to Illyrio that she did to Varys, but the fat/yellow teeth match, it's not inconceivable that it's him in the HoWaB...

[Lost Melnibonean]

3 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

At this point I'm just playing devils advocate... But if the handsome man stays handsome even when he changed his face, might not the fat man stay fat? Arya recognizes something familiar about ruggen when most who have seen Varys plenty don't think twice... Now she doesn't have the same exposure to Illyrio that she did to Varys, but the fat/yellow teeth match, it's not inconceivable that it's him in the HoWaB...

Arya recognizes something familiar about Rugen because the author wants to let the reader know that the dude Illyrio was talking to is Varys, not because Arya is especially good at seeing through disguises. She doesn't recognize Illyrio, and Arya describes Illyrio as Daenerys does, because the author wants the reader to know that the man Varys is talking to is Illyrio. 

[KnightTime]

So a sorcerer uses the blood and body parts of a boy to perform magic.

well there is power in Kings blood.

so is varys a targ?

[cgrav]

5 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

At this point I'm just playing devils advocate... But if the handsome man stays handsome even when he changed his face, might not the fat man stay fat? Arya recognizes something familiar about ruggen when most who have seen Varys plenty don't think twice... Now she doesn't have the same exposure to Illyrio that she did to Varys, but the fat/yellow teeth match, it's not inconceivable that it's him in the HoWaB...

I would argue that those descriptions are sort of red herrings. They could vaguely describe Illyrio, Daario, and Stannis, which would be quite tantalizing if we didn't already know that the FM have no apparent connection to those characters (yet).

And maybe those guys aren't changing their faces, but simply using disguises. It's easy enough to change one's beard color.

Overall, I think those people are meant to show that the FM deal with very serious and wealthy people.

but I'm not saying an Illyrio sighting is impossible, just that the discrepancies make it very unlikely to me.

[CornishDornish]

1 hour ago, KnightTime said:

So a sorcerer uses the blood and body parts of a boy to perform magic.

well there is power in Kings blood.

so is varys a targ?

Or he's a blackfyre and that he's been shaving his head so people don't notice his targ hair colour.

[BricksAndSparrows]

2 hours ago, CornishDornish said:

Or he's a blackfyre and that he's been shaving his head so people don't notice his targ hair colour.

We first meet Varys in Catelyn's chapter. It's the same chapter where we learn that Maegor killed all the builders of the Red Keep so no one but the blood of the Dragon would know all it's secrets.. Then when we meet him his head is described as looking like an egg. We know that King's blood seems to have a special appeal to sorcerers...

I think Varys is blood of the Dragon. Targaryen or Blackfyre

And yes, I believe he was castrated...

All though I have often thought it would be a huge twist if Varys was actually a woman. The first master of Whisperers was a woman...

[LiveFirstDieLater]

17 minutes ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

We first meet Varys in Catelyn's chapter. It's the same chapter where we learn that Maegor killed all the builders of the Red Keep so no one but the blood of the Dragon would know all it's secrets.. Then when we meet him his head is described as looking like an egg. We know that King's blood seems to have a special appeal to sorcerers...

I think Varys is blood of the Dragon. Targaryen or Blackfyre

And yes, I believe he was castrated...

All though I have often thought it would be a huge twist if Varys was actually a woman. The first master of Whisperers was a woman...

I think this is very reasonable, I'd add that it also may or may have been a reason for Aerys, a notorious paranoid, to have trusted Varys. Since he would be "of the blood", but not a threat to succession since he had no more balls

[Lost Melnibonean]

4 hours ago, CornishDornish said:

Or he's a blackfyre and that he's been shaving his head so people don't notice his targ hair colour.

Possibly. But a master mummer like Varys would want a mummer's cut regardless of his hair color. 

[BricksAndSparrows]

15 hours ago, LiveFirstDieLater said:

I think this is very reasonable, I'd add that it also may or may have been a reason for Aerys, a notorious paranoid, to have trusted Varys. Since he would be "of the blood", but not a threat to succession since he had no more balls

So you think Aerys knew of Varys (alleged) heritage? Interesting. That is not something I had considered. I have to admit, I don't feel an instant attraction to that idea (it's not love at first sight,) but it does have an appeal. The story of Aerys hearing about, then sending for Varys, always seemed a little rickety to me.

13 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Possibly. But a master mummer like Varys would want a mummer's cut regardless of his hair color. 

This is a solid explanation for Varys shaving his head. But I still can't help but feel Varys appearance  alludes to "Egg."

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, BricksAndSparrows said:

So you think Aerys knew of Varys (alleged) heritage? Interesting. That is not something I had considered. I have to admit, I don't feel an instant attraction to that idea (it's not love at first sight,) but it does have an appeal. The story of Aerys hearing about, then sending for Varys, always seemed a little rickety to me.

This is a solid explanation for Varys shaving his head. But I still can't help but feel Varys appearance  alludes to "Egg."

As to your second paragraph, I agree. I believe Varys has at least a drop of dragonblood. I was simply pointing out why Varys would shave his head regardless of his hair color. 

As to your first paragraph, I suspect that Illyrio made sure that Steffon learned about Varys when Aerys sent Steffon to the Free Cities in search of a bride for Rhaegar.