Football - clouds on the optimism horizon

[Consigliere]

Not surprised by the result at all. I fully expected Watford to cause us all sorts of problems. Defensively we have looked shaky in these last few games and the early momentum is gone. We were actually fortunate that Watford only scored three. These last few games just goes to show that there is still alot of work to be done before we can consider ourselves as title contenders. This season we will be in a dogfight for 4th spot and nothing more.

[Mark Antony]

Pogba playing so deep is bizarre. Mediocre for France in the euros same so far for United, needs to be further up the pitch imo.

[Consigliere]

For Pogba to be able to play further up we need a midfielder alongside him who can sit deep, control the tempo and spray passes. Fellaini cannot do that but he is big and strong (the Mourinho type player) so he starts ahead of players who can like Herrera, Schneiderlin and Carrick.

[polishgenius]

Stoke are playing like they want Mark Hughes to get fired.

[Rorshach]

Pogba further up would also make a(nother) problem with Rooney. Perhaps he can be dropped later, but I'm not sure that can be safely done yet.

[Calibandar]

I'm not surprised Everton is doing much better than last year. I said last year that they were the team that were seriously underperforming and whether or not that was the manager's fault or not, they just seemed to have such a quality squad.

And lo and behold, here they are under Koeman, doing much, much betterr. Just a strong team with some nice additions in the summer, and keeping Lukaku. Deulofeu and Kone are going to struggle for minutes if this goes on.

Another team that is really pleasing the eye ( aside from Liverpool whose matches tend to be very enjoyable to watch), is Dortmund. It's really stunning to see what depth they have collected in that team. Marko Reus and Mario Gotze have hardly played yet due to injury and it's not hurting them. Ousmane Dembele and young US teen Christian Pulisic are mega talents. Emre Mor is another good player. Castro and Rode in midfield are very solid, Kagawa does well, Aubameyang is a great striker and they have a good replacement as well in Ramos. I am actually forgetting a few very good players here. Oh yes, Andre Schurrle, in the team as well. This is postively Bayern-esque.

[Mark Antony]

37 minutes ago, Rorshach said:

Pogba further up would also make a(nother) problem with Rooney. Perhaps he can be dropped later, but I'm not sure that can be safely done yet.

I don't see why Rooney can't be dropped? You don't spend a record breaking fee on a player to play him a position that doesn't really suit him. 

[Rorshach]

Obviously, you do

However, I believe that, even if it's clear that Rooney is waning as a force, his position in the team and fanbase is probably so large, dropping him isn't going to generate much other than bad feelings. Which the team doesn't need right now. 

Looking at it dispassionately, of course Rooney should go. But football isn't a dispassionate affair. 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

23 minutes ago, Calibandar said:

I'm not surprised Everton is doing much better than last year. I said last year that they were the team that were seriously underperforming and whether or not that was the manager's fault or not, they just seemed to have such a quality squad.

And lo and behold, here they are under Koeman, doing much, much betterr. Just a strong team with some nice additions in the summer, and keeping Lukaku. Deulofeu and Kone are going to struggle for minutes if this goes on.

Another team that is really pleasing the eye ( aside from Liverpool whose matches tend to be very enjoyable to watch), is Dortmund. It's really stunning to see what depth they have collected in that team. Marko Reus and Mario Gotze have hardly played yet due to injury and it's not hurting them. Ousmane Dembele and young US teen Christian Pulisic are mega talents. Emre Mor is another good player. Castro and Rode in midfield are very solid, Kagawa does well, Aubameyang is a great striker and they have a good replacement as well in Ramos. I am actually forgetting a few very good players here. Oh yes, Andre Schurrle, in the team as well. This is postively Bayern-esque.

 

 

The funny thing is, that Dortmund managed to keep a more or less even transfer balance, depsite all those new arrivals. At least as far as transfer fees are concerned. And yes, it's a surprise they looked that good that early. They basically traded some of their top talent (Mkhitaryan, Gündogan and Hummels) for more depth.

 

Players out: Mkhitaryan 42 M. € (for the Mancs, yes totally unplausible United overpaid, I mean, it's not like English clubs pay crazy sums *cough* Pogba *cough*), Hummels 38 M. €, Gündogan 25 M. €, Blaszczykowsky 5 M. €, Leitner 2 M. €

Fees collected: ~112 M. €

Players in. Schürrle 30 M. €, Götze 22 M. €, Dembele 15 M €, Rode 12 M €, Guerreiro 12 M €, Bartra 8 M €, Mor 7 M €, Merino 4 M € 

Fees spent: ~110 M. €

[Consigliere]

Rooney definitely needs to be dropped. He's been poor for quite some time now and it's not as though we don't have players who can fill that role. If Mourinho is playing him simply because of his status in the team then he (Mourinho) deserves all the criticism he gets. It's more than than just Rooney though - Mourinho needs to start playing our players who are good on the ball more regularly (Blind, Mata, Herrera, Schneiderlin, Carrick). We have pace and power in the squad but are reduced to playing long ball because the players who can actually put their foot on the ball, control possession and dictate play are either on the bench or not even included in the matchday squad.

 

ETA. speaking of sides that have been really disappointing, we can add Stoke to that list. Being made to look mediocre.

[ljkeane]

Hmm, apparently Townsend actually does have a right foot.

It's not looking too good for Stoke. I thought the additions of Bony and Allen, off the back of a good summer, would be a boost for them but apparently not.

[polishgenius]

Stoke are awful.

 

16 minutes ago, Notone said:

Players out: Mkhitaryan 42 M. € (for the Mancs, yes totally unplausible United overpaid, I mean, it's not like English clubs pay crazy sums *cough* Pogba *cough*),

Your constant seemingly unprovoked attacks on United and English football are a bit weird if I'm honest. Aren't you a Madrid fan, for crying out loud?
 

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Ahum, no. Actually I am not.

And that remark was intended for Consigliere, with whom there was/is still this small dispute about how much United actually paid for Mkhitaryan. And that the EPL is paying big bucks for players, is that really an attack. I think it's basically stating the obvious. Yes, other clubs/league's also pay ridiculous amounts, the EPL has just pushed it to another level. 

[Consigliere]

9 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

Your constant seemingly unprovoked attacks on United and English football are a bit weird if I'm honest. Aren't you a Madrid fan, for crying out loud?
 

Notone seems to have a beef with English football in general and United in particular, judging by his posts. Don't know where he gets that figure for Mkhitaryan when the fee was around £26m. Must be from that 'super accurate' publication.

8 minutes ago, Notone said:

Ahum, no. Actually I am not.

And that remark was intended for Consigliere, with whom there was/is still this small dispute about how much United actually paid for Mkhitaryan. And that the EPL is paying big bucks for players, is that really an attack. I think it's basically stating the obvious. Yes, other clubs/league's also pay ridiculous amounts, the EPL has just pushed it to another level. 

We paid £26.3m.

[polishgenius]

3 minutes ago, Notone said:

And that the EPL is paying big bucks for players, is that really an attack.

Stating it isn't an attack. The way you stated it though you were pretty obviously having a pop.

[Philokles]

As for Mkhitaryan's fee, the English media's sources for it will be from the United camp and the German media's from BVB's. Man Utd have a vested interest in making the fee seem as small as possible, so will exclude all clauses no matter how likely they are to trigger them. On the other hand Dortmund want to appease their fans by making it look a good deal, so they will tell the German press the fee that includes every clause even if they will never be reached. Hence why there is confusion about how much he cost between the German and English speaking media, unless Mourinho never plays him it will be somewhere in between.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

In all seriousness, my take on the Pogba transfer was and still is. 

If Pogba is worth a transfer fee of 100 M. €. (too lazy to calculate from € to Pound], what would the price tag for Neymar or Messi look like then.

Different position, I know, but Messi and Neymar are also clearly on another level as far as footballing quality is concerned.

 

Consigliere. Dortmund is on the stock exchance, so they will have to publish their numbers. I hope they will publish the numbers for this transfer window by the end of the year. I will wait for that publication, if they publish the lower number you hope you paid (which I still think is unlikely with the new TV money being there this year to be spent) I will eat my crow and admit it, until then I go with the number published in every single newspaper report I saw.

[MercenaryChef]

Whoa. Are stoke bad. I feel terrible for Newcastle legend shay given. 

On the other side of the coin we have rampant city who have been whipped into a truly pretty side to watch under pep's guidance.

I am sad to have united fans turning so quick on mou. He needs to stand up and do the right thing which is bench rooney. Let pogba play beneath zlatan and see what that does. Shore up the defensive coverage of theach back line and they are in business.  It is too early for so much teeth gnashing. 

[Consigliere]

10 minutes ago, Notone said:

Consigliere. Dortmund is on the stock exchance, so they will have to publish their numbers. I hope they will publish the numbers for this transfer window by the end of the year. I will wait for that publication, if they publish the lower number you hope you paid (which I still think is unlikely with the new TV money being there this year to be spent) I will eat my crow and admit it, until then I go with the number published in every single newspaper report I saw.

Do you think I'm just thumb sucking numbers?

I'm just stating the fee I've seen in every single publication I've read. Just because there is a new tv deal it does not automatically mean that United MUST have paid an inflated fee for Mkhitaryan as you claim.

[Calibandar]

58 minutes ago, Notone said:

 

 

The funny thing is, that Dortmund managed to keep a more or less even transfer balance, depsite all those new arrivals. At least as far as transfer fees are concerned. And yes, it's a surprise they looked that good that early. They basically traded some of their top talent (Mkhitaryan, Gündogan and Hummels) for more depth.

 

Players out: Mkhitaryan 42 M. € (for the Mancs, yes totally unplausible United overpaid, I mean, it's not like English clubs pay crazy sums *cough* Pogba *cough*), Hummels 38 M. €, Gündogan 25 M. €, Blaszczykowsky 5 M. €, Leitner 2 M. €

Fees collected: ~112 M. €

Players in. Schürrle 30 M. €, Götze 22 M. €, Dembele 15 M €, Rode 12 M €, Guerreiro 12 M €, Bartra 8 M €, Mor 7 M €, Merino 4 M € 

Fees spent: ~110 M. €

They've done excellent business. They did not miss the Polish right back because they have Passlack and one other guy to replace him with ease. Hummels is clearly a loss for them though, we will see if Bartra can up his game. Gundugan is a good player but also the sort of player you can replace. Reus and Gotze returning could be big, and so is Schurrle as their most pricy addition, and then remember that all of these guys are still young. Dembele and Guerreiro are clearly very talented players, and so are Mor and Pulisic. They even have two no.9 strikers to choose from.

As for Pogba, certainly the club overpaid but any blame or scorn for that should go to Juventus asking such a prodigious amount of money for him? I did not care how nuch United had to pay, I just wanted the club to get Pogba as this is a generational talent who at 23 years old could be a superb midfielder for the next decade. As for Messi/Neymar, I do actually think Barca would ask well over 100 million euro for either of these as well. But they simply won't sell them, they want the very best players and these are clearly the very best. Neymar is a sensational player as well.