Football - clouds on the optimism horizon

[A Horse Named Stranger]

I am not sold on Pogba (23) being that once in a generation dominant midfielder. 

Depending on what you define as his generation, he would need to be at least as good as (well, if he is the real deal he would actually need to become better than them) de Bruyne (who turned 25 this year), Kroos (26), E. Hazard (25), Mahrez (25),  Kante (25),  Thiago Alcantara (25), Verratti (23) and probably a few others, whose names I probably simply forgot.

Neymar is just 24 btw. and he has been a World Class player for some years now. That's a generational player (yes, I am very particular about to whom I attach that label). 

A few years ago, there were a few players labeled as future World Class or generational players when they were under 25, who did not really live up to the expectations. Some developed into great players with great careers in their own right, but nobody would call them World Class Players right. 

Nani, Fabregas (still a very good player, but he never developed into the new Xavi), Pato,  Nuri Sahin, Pastore, Jack Whilshere, Nasri (very good player, but he never lived up to the next Zidane label). Walcott has also not lived up to the expectations from 10 years ago. Joe Hart was also at some point advertised as a generational Goalie (great career, but not a World Class goalkeeper). Ryan Babel. 

[polishgenius]

It's amazing how six months ago Pogba wasn't possibly going anywhere but Madrid or Barca, you bet your life on it you're never getting him! but now he's not worth the money and doesn't seem that good.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Yes, I was fairly confident, that Pogba would end up at Madrid (I am curious what on earth makes you think, I would support General Franco's club?). And it kinda fit the new toy/flavour of the month purchases Madrid is famous for.

And again. I am just very particular about the generational player label. And which players deserve it. Messi, Maradonna, Ronaldo, C. Ronaldo, Neymar etc. So that's a very selective pantheon of players, do you believe Pogba has earnt a place on that list?

[mormont]

Messi, in this market, would easily cost you double what Pogba did. And if that seems insane to you, welcome to modern football.

With the sheer amount of money in the transfer market these days, with selling clubs having better access to information and with the increase in add-on clauses, sell-on clauses, staged payments, payments for image rights, and so on, the degree to which a fee can accurately be said to represent value for money or not is much, much harder to discern than it used to be. I've stopped even caring. If Mkhitaryan is a success at Man U, he's a success, whatever the fee was. If not, then who cares what the fee was?

[polishgenius]

29 minutes ago, Notone said:

(I am curious what on earth makes you think, I would support General Franco's club?).

 

I think I confused you for a while with another user who was here for a while who did support Madrid, but part of it is the Pogba thing and how smug you were that he wouldn't end up in England but at Madrid, just like Kroos.

The fact that you've put Neymar, as good as he is, on a list alongside Messi, Ronaldos and fucking Maradona suggests you might be a Barca fan instead though. So I dunno.

[Dolorous Gabe]

13 minutes ago, Notone said:

Yes, I was fairly confident, that Pogba would end up at Madrid (I am curious what on earth makes you think, I would support General Franco's club?). And it kinda fit the new toy/flavour of the month purchases Madrid is famous for.

And again. I am just very particular about the generational player label. And which players deserve it. Messi, Maradonna, Ronaldo, C. Ronaldo, Neymar etc. So that's a very selective pantheon of players, do you believe Pogba has earnt a place on that list?

I don't think it's fair to compare him with those "once in a generation" forwards. Nor is it fair to judge him against the greatest central midfielders when he is just 23. What had Xavi really achieved at 23? Or Pirlo? I think it's silly to jump on his back at this stage. But someone needs to take him and help mould him into the player he should become. He could become a harder-working Yaya Toure potentially but he needs the right guidance. The transfer fee was crazy, and arguably at 26 Toni Kroos is a more complete and reliable player, but to judge him now is somewhat ridiculous.

It seems to me Pogba works best in a three man midfield. I think if United want to start getting the best from him, they should start playing Schneiderlin behind Pogba and Herrera, then Ibrahimovic up top with pacy players supporting him from wing-forward positions. Mourinho's obsession with Fellaini - useful though he can be in certain situations - is very strange.

[Calibandar]

59 minutes ago, Notone said:

I am not sold on Pogba (23) being that once in a generation dominant midfielder. 

Depending on what you define as his generation, he would need to be at least as good as (well, if he is the real deal he would actually need to become better than them) de Bruyne (who turned 25 this year), Kroos (26), E. Hazard (25), Mahrez (25),  Kante (25),  Thiago Alcantara (25), Verratti (23) and probably a few others, whose names I probably simply forgot.

Neymar is just 24 btw. and he has been a World Class player for some years now. That's a generational player (yes, I am very particular about to whom I attach that label). 

A few years ago, there were a few players labeled as future World Class or generational players when they were under 25, who did not really live up to the expectations. Some developed into great players with great careers in their own right, but nobody would call them World Class Players right. 

Nani, Fabregas (still a very good player, but he never developed into the new Xavi), Pato,  Nuri Sahin, Pastore, Jack Whilshere, Nasri (very good player, but he never lived up to the next Zidane label). Walcott has also not lived up to the expectations from 10 years ago. Joe Hart was also at some point advertised as a generational Goalie (great career, but not a World Class goalkeeper). Ryan Babel. 

Well,

1) I do think Pogba so far at Juventus has shown that he is as good in his own way as the other guys you list, certainly as good and IMO better than Thiago, Verratti, Kante, who are the players you would compare him with from that list. De Bruyne, Hazard and Mahrez are radically different players that are either wingers or no. 10 type of players, so your or I can't compare them to Pogba.

2) Neymar is a sensational talent, agreed.

3) As for the other guys, I agree all of those are examples of players that did not live up to their billing and of course we could name more such names from the last 10 years. I don't think a single one of those carried the hype and potential of Paul Pogba though. Perhaps only Fabregas, and he simply got sidetracked at Chelsea IMO, plus I think that like Rooney, even though he's only 30, he's got so many miles on him because he played regular first team football already at age 17. He was phenomenal at Arsenal.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

Neymar might be a bit premature to end up on that list. But he clearly is a world class player already, even under the age of 25. And he has won pretty much anything he can. Except for titles with his national team. But that's hardly on him, that Brazil does not have a World Class team anymore. Either wrong generation, or wrong country. And I would also place the likes of George Best and Johan Cruyff despite their lack of titles for their country on the list. Anyhow, Pogba is as of now, not world class. 
Can he grow into a world class player, yes, maybe. 

But you saw my other list of players, who were once labeled as the next thing and did not make the impact they were supposed.

[Consigliere]

Had Pogba joined Real Madrid instead of United, I suspect Notone would probably have a better view on him and wouldn't be harping on about the price tag quite so much. Just sayin'.

What Calibander actually said was that Pogba is a "generational talent", which is true. Whether or not he fulfills that potential still remains to be seen. Based on his Juve career, I'd rate Pogba above Kante, Thiago and Verratti.

 

[Iskaral Pust]

I only just got to check the Sunday results.  I have to admit that I cackled at Utd's loss.  Not my coolest moment but you can't resist the glee.  Just before their derby match I posted here that they had been fortunate to that point to have picked up more points than their quality of play merited, and I got knocked back pretty quickly by the Utd fans here.  But I stand by it.  The last three losses aren't some sudden collapse, it's just an evening out of randomness around indifferent form.  A team playing poorly and creating little but snatching late goals can easily become a team that struggles to score.  They may yet improve because most teams do not adapt as quickly as City to Pep, but their points so far are about what they deserve, even with a pretty soft schedule so far.  

Just like Moyes and LVG, Mourinho needs to make a decision on Rooney.  It's amazing that this decision has been in the offing since he was only 28.  It keeps getting kicked down the road but every month that passes makes it more pressing.  Liverpool carried Gerrard for his last few years too.  Club legends have their downside too. 

Dembele really improves Spurs but worrying that they got only a narrow win against an abject Sunderland.  

Stoke's collapse is amazing.  They have solid defenders, albeit currently missing a great GK.  They even have a decent destroyer DM in Imbula (missing today) and some hardworking/tackling MF compadres in Whelan and Allen.  Their ball-playing forwards should not have undermined their defense this much.  To be below even Sunderland defies belief.  

[polishgenius]

16 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

Dembele really improves Spurs but worrying that they got only a narrow win against an abject Sunderland. 

It's kind of worrying how much they seem to depend on him for midfield flow, especially since he limped off towards the end. Very underrated midfielder tbh.

They're surely going to be very concerned by the fact that, four, I think, of their players pulled up feeling their hamstrings within about ten minutes of each other. That's not counting Kane, who was a studs-in-the-turf incident- Dier and Dembele had to come off but while Walker and Alli I think the last one was ran theirs off, it's not a good look for any team for that to happen, especially their first weekend after playing their first CL game, on a bigger pitch than usual no less. May need some adjustments to Poccetino's 100% energy all the time style.

[Rorshach]

Something not mentioned much so far, but a slight surprise (I think) is Southampton languishing down in 14th place, with five points. Now, having Liverpool raid you every year won't make you stronger, that's a given. Still, I did expect more, especially given that their CBs and GK are quality. That Tadic fella can also play at times, and they still have a couple of good midfielders. 

In the aftermath of Stoke's capitulation, I was watching some highlights of their match against Swansea, and their wastefulness in front of goal was unbelieveable. Perhaps they should bring Graziano back?

[polishgenius]

They're playing Redmond up front, which is an issue, because he's a good winger but he is a winger and his finishing ain't great. And it was never Shane Long's strong suit either. They need Austin on but I don't think he's got the legs for a full Prem game at the level they want.

But on top of that I don't think Pouel's the most inspiring or inspired manager.

[Iskaral Pust]

I agree that Southampton have lost their way.  Still lots of good players there but the loss of another good manager might be a hurdle too many.  Puel hasn't really impressed so far.  And while Long was great last season, he looks a bit lost so far this season, missing several easy chances.  

[Davrum]

I was ready to be pissed at Watford for opening the scoring off a foul, but it was only a matter of time before they got a legit goal or three anyway, so what's the point? United have gone from bossing games for the majority of their run time to looking lost at sea for long stretches against second tier European sides and teams who've just come up from the Championship. We're last in the Big Clubs League at present and the way we've performed in the previous two games we're lucky to be that high.

Having said that, while I wasn't a big fan of Mourinho coming in I still want to see what he can do with the place. We said he couldn't do worse than LVG, but did we really mean it? The visit from The Defending Champions next weekend and Stoke the week after will be plenty telling. Then it's away at Anfield a month from now for another 'just point the cameras at the gaffers' outing.

[Raja]

7 hours ago, Rorshach said:

Something not mentioned much so far, but a slight surprise (I think) is Southampton languishing down in 14th place,

They were actually pretty decent against us, and probably didn't deserve to lose ( not that I'm complaining). I think they'll climb back up the league in a couple of months. Their new manager is apparently pretty good. 

I think it's pretty absurd comparing players like Kante and Veratti to Pogba, the former two players are so different and perform very different functions to what is expected from Pogba at United. 

[Iskaral Pust]

2 hours ago, Davrum said:

 The visit from The Defending Champions next weekend and Stoke the week after will be plenty telling. Then it's away at Anfield a month from now for another 'just point the cameras at the gaffers' outing.

Leicester and Stoke should be comfortable wins that won't tell you much.  If you can't beat Stoke on their current form then you really have a problem.  I hope 'Pool will thrash Utd but you've gotten better results than you deserve against us in the PL in recent years.  Besides, Liverpool vs Utd is right after the international break, which is always disruptive and probably means we'll miss Coutinho and Firmino, who've both been called up and will arrive back late. 

[baxus]

16 hours ago, Notone said:

Ahum, no. Actually I am not.

And that remark was intended for Consigliere, with whom there was/is still this small dispute about how much United actually paid for Mkhitaryan. And that the EPL is paying big bucks for players, is that really an attack. I think it's basically stating the obvious. Yes, other clubs/league's also pay ridiculous amounts, the EPL has just pushed it to another level. 

To be honest, EPL is not the league that has pushed it to another level. Real and Barca are the ones who push the limit on highest signing fee every single time and have been doing it for years now, decades even. Zidane, Kaka, Ronaldo, CRonaldo, Bale, Xabi Alonso, Modric, Kroos, Di Maria, Ozil, Suarez, Neymar, Mascherano, Ibrahimovic, Fabregas... Each of these players have been paid 40+ million euros and those are the ones off the top of my head. I'm certain there are more. 

It is, however, the only league in which non-top teams can afford to pay big bucks for players.

15 hours ago, Calibandar said:

As for Pogba, certainly the club overpaid but any blame or scorn for that should go to Juventus asking such a prodigious amount of money for him?

Every club tries to get as much money for their players as they can. Juventus did what was in their best interest, and shouldn't be scorned for that.

Just like Man Utd shouldn't get blamed or scorned for selling CRonaldo to Real Madrid for the amount they did.

14 hours ago, polishgenius said:

It's amazing how six months ago Pogba wasn't possibly going anywhere but Madrid or Barca, you bet your life on it you're never getting him! but now he's not worth the money and doesn't seem that good.

Well, his form has gone down the drain in the past six months.

I'm pretty sure he'll find his feet soon enough and all the critics will shut up, or at least keep their volume at the lower setting.

13 hours ago, Notone said:

Neymar might be a bit premature to end up on that list. But he clearly is a world class player already, even under the age of 25. And he has won pretty much anything he can. Except for titles with his national team. But that's hardly on him, that Brazil does not have a World Class team anymore. Either wrong generation, or wrong country.

Neymar won the Olympic gold (scoring the winning penalty in the finals) and reached the World Cup semifinals, which he missed due to serious injury. He is far from unsuccessful with the national team.

[A Horse Named Stranger]

7 hours ago, baxus said:

Neymar won the Olympic gold (scoring the winning penalty in the finals) and reached the World Cup semifinals, which he missed due to serious injury. He is far from unsuccessful with the national team.

Yes, but the Olympics in football are as meaningful as the confederations cup. Not unsuccessful, but also not really successful.

 

[mormont]

I knew someone would say something like that.

The point is that to Brazil, it really mattered. It was a huge success and a monkey off their backs. Neymar was under pressure to deliver and he did.