Football - clouds on the optimism horizon

[Rorshach]

I guess in this context it's also worth mentioning that in the 2014 WC, Neymar was under pressure to deliver. He did. 

[Davrum]

13 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

Leicester and Stoke should be comfortable wins that won't tell you much.  If you can't beat Stoke on their current form then you really have a problem.  I hope 'Pool will thrash Utd but you've gotten better results than you deserve against us in the PL in recent years.  Besides, Liverpool vs Utd is right after the international break, which is always disruptive and probably means we'll miss Coutinho and Firmino, who've both been called up and will arrive back late. 

Watford should have been a comfortable win too. Leicester and Stoke will tell plenty.

[polishgenius]

Leicester haven't been a comfortable win for anyone since March 2015. Beating them would be a big step up but if we play like we have since the break we're not going to. Especially since the key at the moment to troubling them is playing with pace through the weakened defensive midfield at the CBs and we're simply not doing that, even though a Pogba-Herrera-Rashford combo would be perfect for it.

[Davrum]

Part of me wonders if part of Mourinho's prayers every night involves Wayne getting injured, so he can sideline the captain without spooking the dressing room.

Could Mourinho's refusal to leave Rooney out of the starting line up have anything to do with the nightmares he must still have after losing the dressing room at Chelsea? You'd think Rooney's team mates would be able to tell he's out of form and not the best choice to be taking up that space on the pitch, but at the same time he's a hero to a lot of that squad - guys who were kids when Rooney was at his sharpest and most heroic. They probably had Wazza posters on their walls.

[Iskaral Pust]

26 minutes ago, Davrum said:

Part of me wonders if part of Mourinho's prayers every night involves Wayne getting injured, so he can sideline the captain without spooking the dressing room.

Could Mourinho's refusal to leave Rooney out of the starting line up have anything to do with the nightmares he must still have after losing the dressing room at Chelsea? You'd think Rooney's team mates would be able to tell he's out of form and not the best choice to be taking up that space on the pitch, but at the same time he's a hero to a lot of that squad - guys who were kids when Rooney was at his sharpest and most heroic. They probably had Wazza posters on their walls.

I guess it's hard to understand the mindset of footballers in their culture bubble, and the handful of autobiographies I read made them sound pretty sophomoric.  I would hope that ambitious professionals would recognize Rooney as a hindrance to team success and (quietly) wish for him to be dropped ASAP.

That said, the tour of Carrington a few months ago left me with a very low opinion of their group dynamic and the cult of captaincy.

[polishgenius]

22 minutes ago, Iskaral Pust said:

That said, the tour of Carrington a few months ago left me with a very low opinion of their group dynamic and the cult of captaincy.

The problem I think is that sort of cultish tendency built up over Robson-Cantona-Keane, figures who could in various ways carry the weight (and when Keane failed to, it burned out spectacularly so it didn't affect us, with a solid Neville- and Fergie of course- to pick up the pieces).

Whereas Rooney seems like someone who has bought into his own legend at some level, yet just doesn't have the level of inspiration needed. Which is a shame coz at the time he became captain it seemed like he might.

We also haven't had a proper number 7 since Ronaldo left. Disappointing.

[mormont]

The thing is, Mourinho's built his reputation over just these kind of conflicts. What does Iker Casillas, to name but one, make of Mourinho suddenly treating a club legend as undroppable?

[Rorshach]

It would indeed be strange if Mourinho - of all people - should withdraw himself from a conflict. His career to date speaks against him doing it. 

On the other hand, he's now in a job he really wants, and has made clear that he wants. It is a big job, and the pressure on that manager is immense. You may argue that he knew that pressure at Madrid. He did. But the Madrid job is more known to be temporary - my guess is that Ferguson's reign brought in a sense of "long term thinking" with managers, and Moyes/van Gaal haven't managed to remove that yet. So Mourinho knows that success will keep him in the job for a long time, and he's playing his cards differently. 

Which leads to another point, trying to think long term. Which, of course, is something Morinho hasn't done before. Perhaps that has lead to a difference in thinking? I'm speculating here, if that's not clear. 

A third point may be his failure last season. Has that impacted his self belief? Sure, in earlier times, his teams have regressed in the third season, but not at all at the level Chelsea did last season. Does this lead to Mourinho trying a new approach? 

Meh. Lots of speculation, probably no substance. But Mourinho not realizing a problem, or deciding not to take a confrontation is odd.

[polishgenius]

Basically, we are seeing, just like with Moyes, what a small-time manager deals with his first time at a proper club.

Eta: my apologies, in hindsight, that was very disrespectful to Everton and Preston.

[Consigliere]

Idk what it is with Rooney and managers at both club and international level. I think it is pretty obvious to all and sundry that Rooney has been in decline for years, yet you have Allardyce saying he can't tell Rooney where to play, Hodgson saying Rooney will be selected as long as he is "mechanically fit" and Moyes, LVG and now Mourinho persisting with him. It seems that the only criteria for Rooney starting is fitness; form does not even come into the equation.

I think switching to a 4-3-3 will benefit us - certainly it would benefit the likes of Pogba, Ibra and Mkhitaryan, yet we persist with Rooney to the benefit of no-one. Playing Rooney off the bench may even be beneficial to him as well - maybe he can have more of an impact later on in a game when there are tired legs about. Point is, Rooney needs to earn his place in the starting XI for both club and country instead of being handed it on a silver platter regardless of form.

[polishgenius]

--------De Gea
Valencia-Bailly-Smalling-Shaw
---------Schneiderlin-
--------Herrera--Pogba
----Mikhi-Rashford-Lingard


Please.


What did happen to Lingard? Is he still injured?
 

[Consigliere]

I don't think Lingard is injured. Mourinho must have dropped him due to a poor first half showing against City, which is harsh considering he was just returning from injury.

On that starting XI: doubt Mou would drop both Rooney and Zlatan, especially not Zlatan. With Martial out with a concussion, Rashford could play on the left with Mkhitaryan/Lingard on the right - think Lingard is more comfortable on the right anyway. Otherwise that looks good and a 4-3-3 seems a better fit for the skillset we currently have.

[polishgenius]

5 minutes ago, Consigliere said:

On that starting XI: doubt Mou would drop both Rooney and Zlatan, especially not Zlatan.

 

I know but I'm pretending I'm in charge.

I'm increasingly meh-ing on Zlatan. He's just too slow, teams are finding it too easy to cut him out entirely. If he doesn't pop the odd finish in he's contributing nothing, not even particularly good hold-up play - we'd be better off with Fellaini in that role frankly.

[Consigliere]

8 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

 

I know but I'm pretending I'm in charge.

I'm increasingly meh-ing on Zlatan. He's just too slow, teams are finding it too easy to cut him out entirely. If he doesn't pop the odd finish in he's contributing nothing, not even particularly good hold-up play - we'd be better off with Fellaini in that role frankly.

I'd like to give Zlatan a bit more time. He is a proven goalscorer. IF Mourinho does switch formation and Zlatan has pacey players on either side of him as well as Pogba no longer shackled with extra defensive responsibility and able to make those runs of his from midfield, perhaps Zlatan would fare better.

We did switch to 4-3-3 in the 2nd half against City and there was an improvement so I'm surprised that Mourinho reverted to a 4-2-3-1. Seems like he is determined to play that formation so I don't have high hopes of him changing.

[Iskaral Pust]

Not to place spurious significance on betting odds, which embody a lot of marketing, but these were quoted today on a ThisIsAnfield.com story about current odds offered for winning the PL (the same source that cited 10/1 for Liverpool to beat Chelsea, as I posted on Friday):

City 4/6, Liverpool 5/1, Chelsea 9/1, Arsenal 12/1, Utd 14/1.

So last Friday morning, Liverpool were 10/1 to beat Chelsea but now they're 5/1 to win the title?  The knee-jerking is ludicrous.  I have said for years that if I had access to this online sports betting I would bet against and for the same team to win the title as their fortunes ebbed and flow, basically hedging net zero exposure on any single team but relying on swings in sentiment to produce an arbitrage.  If you bet against City and Liverpool today you'll probably get a more attractive price at some stage to bet on them again.  Similarly betting on United now will probably provide a lower odds to bet against them later when they find some form.  The only way you lose is if sentiment solidifies consistently through the season rather than going through ups and downs.  Which seems unlikely to say the least.

[Philokles]

There is no way that Liverpool were 10/1 against Chelsea. Do you know what bookmaker This Is Anfield claimed that came from? The only explanation I can think of is that it was a special offer, probably with a high minimum stake and payout in free bets instead of actual money. Those title odds seem more realistic, other than Liverpool being a little lower than they should be unsurprisingly.

[Davrum]

10 hours ago, mormont said:

The thing is, Mourinho's built his reputation over just these kind of conflicts. What does Iker Casillas, to name but one, make of Mourinho suddenly treating a club legend as undroppable?

That's a bingo, hence my dramatic reference to possible trauma due to what happened at Chelsea only last year. We expect that if anyone's going to be the guy to finally put Rooney on the bench it'd probably be him, and yet he's doing what every other recent club and national manager has done and sticking with the fading superstar.

It might be my imagination (wouldn't be the first time) but so far I get the feeling this ain't our granddad's Mourinho.

[Calibandar]

It seems everybody, here and elsewhere, agrees that if anyone is to be dropped, it should be Rooney, and of course that refrain was played under van Gaal as well, and even under Moyes. I think that even if Rooney has the occasional fine game, which sometimes he does passing wise, he does not perform with *any* consistency and that alone should see him removed. On top of that I am not convinced he is the right sort of feeder and partner for Zlatan, whose place should be undisputed btw. If one considers that Zlatan, as awesome as he still is, might be a bit past his best, it's not great to couple him with another player who is very much past his best, and has been a non-scoring entity for years. So yeah, Rooney out.

I think Mourinho will be tough enough to do that soon if this continues. Problem might be though, who does he replace him? He's got little faith in the Armenian, immediatelly dropped from the team last weekend alongside Lingaard and Blind. All 3 of these guys disappointed him vs City and bam they are out. Seems a bit harsh and not the way to give players confidence. Just my impression from the sidelines.

So we're strugglinbg upfront as well as defensively. I think Zlatan and Rashford definitely need to play in any starting line-up. Those would be my first markers on the midfield-offense board because they're fine players that score easily. As a 3rd forward I would like to see Martial given a consistent chance. If not him, Lingaard.

The midfield, I am torn, because on the one hand I do like Fellaini next to Pogba, an obvious starter. But I would also like to see real footballers like Schneiderlin, Herrera, The Armenian and Mata given a chance. Defensively the backs are fine as they are but Blind, Bailly and Smalling all have a lot to prove.

[baxus]

 

36 minutes ago, Calibandar said:

It seems everybody, here and elsewhere, agrees that if anyone is to be dropped, it should be Rooney

I wouldn't want to see Rooney dropped. Why would I want Utd's chances of winning games to increase?

[Iskaral Pust]

17 hours ago, Horse of Kent said:

There is no way that Liverpool were 10/1 against Chelsea. Do you know what bookmaker This Is Anfield claimed that came from? The only explanation I can think of is that it was a special offer, probably with a high minimum stake and payout in free bets instead of actual money. Those title odds seem more realistic, other than Liverpool being a little lower than they should be unsurprisingly.

Unnamed.  There was a URL provided but I wasn't about to click that and get barraged with betting ads forever.  You can take a look on the recent articles on TIA. 

Re: 5/1 being "a little lower", the same source had them at 50/1 after the Burnley game.  That's a 90% improvement in odds after only two further games. 

Aside from my rants on betting odds, I hope we give some game time tonight to Origi, Can, Karius, Moreno and Grujic.  Perhaps not all as starters but they need some real playing time.