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NFL 2016 Week 2: extending the mustache ride in LA


DanteGabriel

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16 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

@DanteGabriel,

I'd put it more at a 75-23 ratio. I've never seen a coach who can do more with less than BB can. I mean, he's running an offense designed around tiny white guys and a dominate no-name defense. 

Jamie,

100% agree. 

Brian,

I have to disagree. Most people believe that Rice is the best WR ever, yet he's admitted to using stickum for a long stretch of his career. I don't see anyone whose changed their mind after learning that. 

Belichick at his best proved without his QB he could lead a 16-0 team (there was very little turn over from 07-08) to a 11-5 record with a QB capable of having a 10-6 record somewhere else. 

And that's before you compare schedules (08 was the lightest schedule the Patriots played in long time). And they didn't really beat any contenders.

Belichick probably doesn't win his last 3 SB's without Brady. You can make an argument for the first one as Brady wasn't playing as well that year, but he also was a huge improvement over Bledsoe. 

And if he couldn't keep a 16-0 team from falling to 11-5 with an easier schedule, it's doubtful some of those lesser teams are remaining as competitive without Brady. A lot of those early 2010 teams? 2009-2013 they aren't going anywhere. 

 

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3 minutes ago, lancerman said:

And if he couldn't keep a 16-0 team from falling to 11-5 with an easier schedule, it's doubtful some of those lesser teams are remaining as competitive without Brady. A lot of those early 2010 teams? 2009-2013 they aren't going anywhere. 

Falling to 11-5? This is a really weird argument. He did it with a guy who hadn't started a game since high school 8 years earlier. And who proved to be a bottom 5 starting QB the rest of his career.

2008 was damn near as miraculous as 2007 IMO. 

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9 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Belichick at his best proved without his QB he could lead a 16-0 team (there was very little turn over from 07-08) to a 11-5 record with a QB capable of having a 10-6 record somewhere else.

You are picking your data points pretty egregiously here.  Most quarterbacks do worse in their first year of starting than the rest of their career.  And yet, here we have the comparison for Matt Cassel:

Year 1 (Belichek): 10-5. 

Rest of career (4 different teams):  25-39

Cassel was not just better, but dramatically better with Belichek than with any other coach, in spite of that being his first year starting. 

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1 hour ago, lancerman said:

Jesus. Do you actually know what Spygate was? 

While I wouldn't take it as far as briantw did (I think Belichick is an HOFer with or without Spygate) it is an event that is very heavily discounted by Patriots fans and apologists. Yes, at one point every team in the league was doing it, but no one did it with the enthusiasm, duplicity and creativity that the Pats did. They had a crew that went around with cameras that taped over the Pats logos on their shirts claiming to be from NFL films. They were the one team that continued to tape from the stands and from blinds placed around their own home field once everyone was instructed not to do so any longer. Pats fans and apologists always vilify Eric Mangini as being a giant rat, but who would better know how great of an advantage the pats were squeezing out of that tape? 

I don't believe that Spygate was a legacy destroying act of cheating, but to downplay it in the manner that Pats fans do is disingenuous at the very least. They were cheating, regardless as to how you want to paint it.  

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9 minutes ago, Jaime L said:

Falling to 11-5? This is a really weird argument. He did it with a guy who hadn't started a game since high school 8 years earlier. And who proved to be a bottom 5 starting QB the rest of his career.

2008 was damn near as miraculous as 2007 IMO. 

He went to a pro bowl and led another team to the playoffs. So it's sort of disengenious to act like he could only win with Belichick. 

And again let's be real, he inherited a 16-0 team. The team's record was worse than with Brady. His stats we're significantly worse than Brady. 

You know who was a real nobody after he started. Painter from the 2010 Colts. That's a guy who never did anything in the NFL again. 

So if you want to use the Cassel argument, we should admit he did things without Belichick, he was put in about as good a situation as possible, and he still compared very unfavorably to Brady. 

 

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17 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

While I wouldn't take it as far as briantw did (I think Belichick is an HOFer with or with Spygate) it is an event that is very heavily discounted by Patriots fans and apologists. Yes, at one point every team in the league was doing it, but no one did it with the enthusiasm, duplicity and creativity that the Pats did. They had a crew that went around with cameras that taped over the Pats logos on their shirts claiming to be from NFL films. They were the one team that continued to tape from the stands and from blinds placed around their own home field once everyone was instructed not to do so any longer. Pats fans and apologists always vilify Eric Mangini as being a giant rat, but who would better know how great of an advantage the pats were squeezing out of that tape? 

I don't believe that Spygate was a legacy destroying act of cheating, but to downplay it in the manner that Pats fans do is disingenuous at the very least. They were cheating, regardless as to how you want to paint it.  

Not the only time they've been caught cheating either.  And that's not even getting into little things like how opponent headsets never work properly at the Pats' stadium, or the numerous allegations of stolen playbooks. 

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27 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Really?

Funny because I remember Cassel  2 years later playing with the Chiefs leading them to 10-6 and their first playoff appearance in years, along with a pro bowl. 

I know it's not anything like going 11-5 after a 16-0 season. Guess Todd Haley is Raptor Jesus. 

 

Lets to just ignore that Bledsoe who was far and away the second best QB Belichick ever had went 5-11 and then 0-2 in the same season Brady helped them to a Super Bowl. 

First, how dare you trample over my Raptor Jesus joke with silly things like facts and information.

Second, nobody is saying Brady isn't great. He's easily a top 3 QB and maybe the best ever. But Belichick is at this point is clearly the best football coach ever, and possibly the best coach ever across all of sports. At this point in time it's pretty clear which one of them needs the other more. I doubt either of them would have risen has high as they have if they were on their own, but I feel confident that Belichick would have been the one who was more likely to succeed if they were on their own. 

33 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Belichick at his best proved without his QB he could lead a 16-0 team (there was very little turn over from 07-08) to a 11-5 record with a QB capable of having a 10-6 record somewhere else. 

And that's before you compare schedules (08 was the lightest schedule the Patriots played in long time). And they didn't really beat any contenders.

Belichick probably doesn't win his last 3 SB's without Brady. You can make an argument for the first one as Brady wasn't playing as well that year, but he also was a huge improvement over Bledsoe. 

And if he couldn't keep a 16-0 team from falling to 11-5 with an easier schedule, it's doubtful some of those lesser teams are remaining as competitive without Brady. A lot of those early 2010 teams? 2009-2013 they aren't going anywhere. 

 

I hope you didn't throw out your back when you put that massive cape on.....

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19 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

While I wouldn't take it as far as briantw did (I think Belichick is an HOFer with or with Spygate) it is an event that is very heavily discounted by Patriots fans and apologists. Yes, at one point every team in the league was doing it, but no one did it with the enthusiasm, duplicity and creativity that the Pats did. They had a crew that went around with cameras that taped over the Pats logos on their shirts claiming to be from NFL films. They were the one team that continued to tape from the stands and from blinds placed around their own home field once everyone was instructed not to do so any longer. Pats fans and apologists always vilify Eric Mangini as being a giant rat, but who would better know how great of an advantage the pats were squeezing out of that tape? 

I don't believe that Spygate was a legacy destroying act of cheating, but to downplay it in the manner that Pats fans do is disingenuous at the very least. They were cheating, regardless as to how you want to paint it.  

Okay then here's my thing, if it was such a big advantage... Why did they have one of the best seasons ever with a giant microscope on them? Why have they been in 3 Super Bowls since? 

People say it's down played, but damn a lot of his peers who had no reason to defend him were the ones who down played it. They didn't have to come out and say everybody did it. And those were great coaches. Not like Shula who hadn't been in the league for years  and was getting bugged about Belichick comparisons. 

I mean all things considered he's still the most successful coach both pre and post Spygate. The biggest difference being a helmet catch and a dropped Welker catch. 

If they fell off the wagon or something, then yeah it would be a way to attribute Spygate to some of the wins. But your going to tell me that because they filmed in the wrong spot and had roughly the same amount of success before and after that it was some massive legacy diminishing scandal? 

Again to me it's a consistency thing. Not just in how they played, but also in how people judge Spygate which was for all intents and purposes an unenforced rule that Belichick ignored once it was enforced vs other great teams having rule violations. 

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5 minutes ago, briantw said:

Not the only time they've been caught cheating either.  And that's not even getting into little things like how opponent headsets never work properly at the Pats' stadium, or the numerous allegations of stolen playbooks. 

Or when they cheated the salary cap to build championship teams! Oh wait, that was the Broncos and 49ers. Well, there was the time their offensive linemen were cited for putting Vaseline on their uniforms to make them tough to hold on to. Oh, was that the Broncos again? 

Gosh what an honest and scandal-free league the NFL would be if they didn't have the PACHEATRIOTS**** and BELICHEAT**** !!!!!!1!!!! ***

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9 minutes ago, briantw said:

Not the only time they've been caught cheating either.  And that's not even getting into little things like how opponent headsets never work properly at the Pats' stadium, or the numerous allegations of stolen playbooks. 

So New England's the only place headsets never work? It's not just imperfect technology that happens all over the NFL? And there aren't rules in place that forces the other team to stop using them once a problem us reported? 

Again if you want to be consistent and go through every team and weigh rule violations to disqualify them fine, I'm happy to have that discussion. But I think you are going to be pretty dissapointed with how many great players/teams have gotten rule violations or admitted to some years after the fact

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2 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

Or when they cheated the salary cap to build championship teams! Oh wait, that was the Broncos and 49ers. Well, there was the time their offensive linemen were cited for putting Vaseline on their uniforms to make them tough to hold on to. Oh, was that the Broncos again? 

Gosh what an honest and scandal-free league the NFL would be if they didn't have the PACHEATRIOTS**** and BELICHEAT**** !!!!!!1!!!! ***

I don't get how acknowledging that Belichick has cheated in a variety of ways his entire career means that no one else has ever cheated.  I've never claimed that, nor has anyone else.

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2 minutes ago, briantw said:

I don't get how acknowledging that Belichick has cheated in a variety of ways his entire career means that no one else has ever cheated.  I've never claimed that, nor has anyone else.

It was your moronic idea to blackball him from the Hall of Fame that was novel enough to merit a response. Others already got into it, but since you've clearly thought deeply about this issue, what should the Hall do with Stickum Cheater Jerry Rice, or Salary Cap Cheater John Elway? Should a known salary cap cheater like Elway be allowed to GM a team? Once a cheater, always a cheater. Let's take a long hard look at the contracts that Cheatway** has given to players on the Broncheats**, at least.

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2 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

It was your moronic idea to blackball him from the Hall of Fame that was novel enough to merit a response. Others already got into it, but since you've clearly thought deeply about this issue, what should the Hall do with Stickum Cheater Jerry Rice, or Salary Cap Cheater John Elway? Should a known salary cap cheater like Elway be allowed to GM a team? Once a cheater, always a cheater. Let's take a long hard look at the contracts that Cheatway** has given to players on the Broncheats**, at least.

Yeah, I really expect a Pats fan to be unbiased about this.  LOL

I also don't think blackballing him from the Hall of Fame is moronic.  The guy has been caught cheating multiple times in his career, and suspected of cheating in other ways as well.  If this had happened in the Adam Silver NBA, he would have been kicked out of the league.  But in the Goodell NFL, it's a slap on the wrist.  

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14 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Okay then here's my thing, if it was such a big advantage... Why did they have one of the best seasons ever with a giant microscope on them? Why have they been in 3 Super Bowls since? 

People say it's down played, but damn a lot of his peers who had no reason to defend him were the ones who down played it. They didn't have to come out and say everybody did it. And those were great coaches. Not like Shula who hadn't been in the league for years  and was getting bugged about Belichick comparisons. 

I mean all things considered he's still the most successful coach both pre and post Spygate. The biggest difference being a helmet catch and a dropped Welker catch. 

If they fell off the wagon or something, then yeah it would be a way to attribute Spygate to some of the wins. But your going to tell me that because they filmed in the wrong spot and had roughly the same amount of success before and after that it was some massive legacy diminishing scandal? 

Again to me it's a consistency thing. Not just in how they played, but also in how people judge Spygate which was for all intents and purposes an unenforced rule that Belichick ignored once it was enforced vs other great teams having rule violations. 

 Yeah, I pretty much gave you that in my diatribe. He's an HOFer (and probably the GOAT) with or without it. I'm not saying it should discount their success, I'm saying that it was clearly cheating, and that you more or less have to put a Pat's fan in an armbar before you'll hear those words come out of their mouth. It's always "Everyone was doing it" and "Mangini's just a jealous rat". Both of those statements are as true as "the Patriots were cheating".

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Just now, sperry said:

Belichick being a really good coach and being a cheater are not mutually exclusive. Most of the roids guys in baseball were really fucking good players naturally.

I think that's the thing about him that is so maddening. He's clearly built the smartest, most disciplined team and system in the league. He has a leg up on everyone due to his natural football intelligence and his work ethic. And he can't seem to resist the temptation of seeking out an edge that pushes the definition of the rules over the line. 

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3 minutes ago, DanteGabriel said:

You could actually address the points about how to handle other Hall of Fame players who cheated. LOLOLOLOL***

As far as Elway goes, if a team pays a player outside of the salary cap, the team should be punished, not the player, as the team is who benefits.  That's pretty much consistent with how all sports leagues handle such infractions.  What I would do is void the player's contract, fine the team a substantial amount, and dock them draft picks.  

With Rice, it's more difficult because he was obviously never caught.  Is it enough to ban him from the Hall of Fame?  Probably not, no more than Tom Brady should be banned for deflating footballs.  I think that a Hall of Fame ban has to be for something extremely significant (you know, like Belichick cheating consistently for years).  Minor infractions should be treated with the typical suspensions.  

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4 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I think that's the thing about him that is so maddening. He's clearly built the smartest, most disciplined team and system in the league. He has a leg up on everyone due to his natural football intelligence and his work ethic. And he can't seem to resist the temptation of seeking out an edge that pushes the definition of the rules over the line. 

 

There is a lot of good and bad that comes with the ego required to be world class at something.

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